So, can dragons initiate? If so, what benefits will they get? Just metamagic or increased maximum Magic, as well? I normally cap characters at 12 Magic regardless of initiation, which is about double. So, if dragons can increase their maximum Magic, I'll have to make a larger maximum for them. And no, there are no dragon PCs, but I'm making a dragon NPC, so I could use some input. So, can they initiate, and do they get all the benefits of initation? If so, it's not hard to imagine a dragon with a Magic of 15, 20, or even higher.

Dragons don't initiate, they are just Great.

By RAW Characters don't have a magic cap. I don't see why dragons should have one either, or why dragons couldn't initiate. (other than that while they can initiate, they can't increase their essence, which is their magic score).

Dragons are magicians. Magicians can initiate. Therefore, dragons can initiate.

And they wouldn't be very powerful if they couldn't, would they? Sure, they have amazing attributes, but there are 20+ grade initiate mages out there... Dragons are the most powerful physical beings in the world, essentially without exclusion. They are not stuck at magic 6, if they were then there would be many mages around the world that could humiliate them just for fun.

No, they're stuck at Magic = Essence, and their essence is from 7-12. Thus, they can be born having a higher magic than many magicians will ever reach.

Though, they cannot increase this magic attribute, as it is tied to their essence.

I think Runner's Companion will cover this.

Not seeing anything anywhere in 4th edition about either being limited by ess now. Initiating allows an increase in magic rating with each grade. Does it state something elsewhere I'm missing?

Edit: Starting magic is limited by essence as well as magic can be lowered through essence loss.

The dragon stats, Magic = Essence. Essence goes up, their magic goes up. Essence goes down, their magic goes down.

Dragons of the Sixth Age says nearly all Dragons are initiates, and Great ones are at least grade 10.

I see what you did there.

So, what's the consensus? Can dragons increase their Magic rating through initiation? After all, normal humans have a magic cap, too. It might not be their Essence, but it's a cap. If humans can circumvent this cap, why can't dragons? And as far as 20+ Initiate/Magic magicians go, I think that might break the game, which is why I cap Magic and Initiation at 12, barring any rare, rule-breaking exceptions (which CAN happen).

If dragons can't initiate, Schwartzkopf is really, really wasting his time.

Also, pick any high-grade initiate IE who doesn't like dragons (so, almost all of them) and explain to me why he/she hasn't killed them all yet.

I don't think not having dragons able to get better at magic makes any sense at all.

IE's wouldn't have killed all the dragons due to that nifty ability the greats get called Twist Fate that make it rather hard to kill them. Note: Great dragons can initiate AND raise magic as normal, since their magic isn't tied to their essence like the regular dragons.

of course, since we don't have the full rules for dragons, we don't know. it's entirely possible that dragons, when they increase their magic, increase their essence too

Dragons follow their own rules for Magic, which is older, and closer to the truth of magic than any followed by the Metahumans, from my understanding.

Yup. It isn't exactly RAW at this point. But there are some of us who still know the truth.

Even if they bought up their magic. I mean think of how many runs they would have to go on before being able to do so. 100+ karma takes a looooong azz time to get no matter what you are.

Time is something they have lots of. I just poked around the dragon section again and I must say I'm quite pleased for reinforcing the old truths I thought would get stamped out.

They actually say

"Dragons are all capable and powerful magicians and
practice their own tradition beyond anything mere metahumanity
has achieved."

And also mention that the figures given are only a rough guidline not an accurate description of ability.

Finally the details of Twist fate again re-establish Edge/Karma/whatever as a "real" thing in the SR universe, not just a game mechanic.

Yes, dragons can and do initiate. Great dragons tend to be double digit grade initiates, some even higher.

Excuse me ... did you just said that great dragons like Ghostwalker or Lofyr are grade 101 initiates?

And what exactly do you mean with double digit great dragons? 10? 20? 50? 99?

SYL

RAW aside (since we're supposed to make our own rules anyway if they don't fit), what do you think of allowing dragons to raise magic through initiation?

I hardly think there's a need for triple digits.


By the way, do dragons create background count? An area where lots of spells have been slung have at least a background count, right? With dragons being intensely magical creatures, do they create one too?

Hell yes. Most already have. Fear them. Really.

and what's up with this raising essence nonsense?
wasn't the one thing in SR that essence never goes up aside from the HMHVV people?
Not even Spirits get an raised essence if they get stronger . . heck, even if they are completely made off the stuff they don't get ANY essence if i ain't wrong O.o

If dragon lore is to be believed, some great dragons have (allegedly) been studying magic for more than 21k to 28k years (though admittedly they've only been active for about 11-14k of those) - make of that what you will. For dragons, their basic Magic does indeed equal Essence (rather than 1) before any Initiations and Magic increases are factored in (this is all the corebook means by that reference in the statline).

lazy worms O.o
been asleep for literally half of their life *g*

In the Basic Book there are stats for great dragons. Does the magic attribute of the "great" great dragons varies widly from this given stat (magic 12 IIRC&AFAIK)? If yes, by what number? I mean, it makes a difference if Ghostwalker have a magic attribute of 15 oder 150, especially world balance and history (even crossover).

SYL

As Rob has said on several ocassions the stats for great dragons in the corebook should be seen as a basic statline for the youngest of all great dragons (maybe a few hundred years old), and even then stats without all the Magical firepower a typical great dragon can bring to bear. Stats for the older greats such as Ghostwalker, Dunkie, Lofwyr, Alamais, Schwarzkopf, Sirrug, Lung, etc all of whom have 10000+ years of activity under their belt... err scales... should put these to shame. The Magic att as presented in the basic book is meant only as the minimum Magic Rating (ie. where a metahuman magician starts at 1).

IMO Ghostwalker would be at least a double digit initiate (maybe more if he is an early Second World survivor which would make him almost 30000 years old). He would also have a double digit Magic Attribute, have all the metamagics known to metahumans and then some, any spell he needs, Magical Skills in the 20-30s range (at least), pretty much any unique enchantment you care to give him, and so much Edge it makes Mr. Lucky cry. His power is such that it dwarfs any lone human magician. All of which explains why we avoid offering stats in typical adventures and used to label great dragons Ultimate-level NPCs.

Double Post, sorry

This would mean, that discussions like "Anti dragon Task Force" are futile, because there is no way to stop an older great dragon in killmode?

Is it truly intended by the SR Line Devoloper, that the named great dragons (Ghostwalker, Lofyr, Dunkelzahn), are more or less immun to any- and everything a human (nation/corp/organisation/army) can throw at them, short of a doomsday nuclear device and that their stats are in the highest double or even triple digit regions?

What about immortal elves and free spirits? What about the insect spirits?

SYL

Thanks for the answer.

However I have a small problem with "double digits" because this covers a large area of numbers. If you are saying that his magic skills are around 20-30, would it be possible to get an rough estimate of his attributes and grades too? Like "grade and magic attribute in the area of 15 to 20" for example?

And from a game design point of view: does it really make sense to create beings of such power, who topple almost everything, not only a lone magican (with that I have no problem) , but even entire nations, corps and international organisations (that sounds like overkill)? What is the benefit to make older great dragons so incredible powerful, not only on a personal, but even on global scale?

And why don´t older great dragons just take over the world by force? At least in Dot6w (I know, SR3), they seem to be quite aggressive when it comes to enlarge their power, treasure and influence.

SYL

Who says they aren't?

OK, you take over a world by force the way Shadowrun is between 2050 and 2070. You'd have to do it *BY* force. That means reprisals similar to Tehran in 2020 (Which is a lession on a variety of fronts by Aden. One: "GET OFF MY LAWN!", Two: "When declairing war on something, make damn sure you know what it is!"), which means death and destruction on a grade scale on a planet that's already in deep ecological drek.

Or, think like a Dragon. You've been around since the Fourth World, possibly the SECOND World. And you want the world to be around in the Eighth World to rule again! What's a few decades, or even centuries, preparing these short-lived and small minded pets to get used to you (again), and then taking over peacefully.

Lofwyr's plan makes the best sense to me (But what do I know, I'm only metahuman), now that Dunkie is no longer with us. (And I bet the Old Guard at the JackPoint are *STILL* hunting his killers at Captain Chaos' old request, eh?). Saeder-Krupp seems like nothing more than "Just Another Mega" in the minds of the majority of the people. So it's owned by a Dragon, big deal. "He's playing by our rules at least." when he's really playing by his own, and subtly changing "Human" rules.

Now, give it a few generations.

Hey, look at that, people are used to him having total power over his entire domain. And all it cost was some Gold and Time. Resources that Dragons aren't exactly lacking in. *AND* he has a great hobby to keep him interested for that time as well, additional bonus!

Not at all. There are several ways of stopping a great dragon in killmode (though not necessarily killing it); most of them requiring a concerted military scale attack or overwhelming force.

However, I did say a while back that an initiative like the Anti-Dragon Task Force was largely a futile endevour without referencing a fully statted great dragon and factoring in all his potential magical defenses and countermeasures (for instance why shouldn't every great have a quickened or anchored personal Physical Barrier at force 20 minimum?).

IMHO bare minimum values for one of the older great dragons like Lofwyr (as opposed to a new great like Masaru) would be to take the baseline great dragon in SR4, then advance it (in a balanced/realistic manner) assuming it progresses like a metahuman and earns something like 100 karma a year (to be really conservative), multiply that by an active cycle of 7000 years. Considering that a lot of it is expended on Magic, personal projects and trivial stuff.


Not at all and quite to the contrary.

Note "human" does not equate to "nations/(mega)corps/armies." In fact the latter are pretty much the only ones that can take down a great dragon (outside of course a global human jihad against dragon kind), since only they have the kind of resources necessary. Physically great dragons are surprisingly vulnerable to modern high-tech weapons (particularly coordinated miltech grade firepower) - even when you factor in staggered magical defenses to physical attacks. A well-prepared spec ops team might be able to make a dent, though much better solutions are stuff like tailored bioweapons, weaponized nanotech, orbital or naval lasers, high-end gauss weapons, rail guns, Thor shots, etc (which is why those are the tactics used in the novels). It is just magically that they are pretty much beyond (conventional) metahuman means (though high-power ritual sorcery is an exception if the organization behind it is willing to expend a few magicians to ensure an overcast that could punch through potential magical defenses.)


I've never said that "their stats" being in the highest double digit or triple digit regions. I specifically referred to their magical abilities in the context of this thread, as I've mentioned above (and before) great dragons are relatively vulnerable to mundane physical means, particularly overwhelming brute force attacks by coordinated/concentrated forces.


Immortal elves are probably quite powerful though not individually on par with great dragons. Again their physical side is more vulnerable than their magical side. Free spirits really depend on how old and powerful they are. An ancient free spirit like Jurojin would probably give most IEs a run for their money, younger ones not so much. Insect spirits are stated in Street Magic.

I wouldn't say Insect Spirits would threaten Dragons too badly. En Mass, they'd be a problem, sure, but not a big issue.

After all, there are metahuman teams that hunt Insect Hives. (Looks at Ares, and certain crazy Shadowteams.).

As for Thor Shots... I think they're being put to better use taking out rich jerks like Art Dankwalther, aren't they?

Thanks for the answer.



Does this mean that you would like to give us the tricked out official stats of a Ghostwalker-class older great dragon in kill mode?

Honestly, a specific range of values or even racial/augmented maximums for these old great dragons could be very helpful for this kind of discussions, especially for magic attribute and grade. The Basic Book is not really helping with that, because it severly limits old great dragons


So, no limit for magic / grade? Because magical power means automatically physical power through spellls. A magic attribute + grade of (?) 100 burns through and defeats almost everything, even heavy railguns, naval lasers, thors etc.

I always thought (especially with Dot6W and SR4-BB) that great dragons are forced to rule by wits, manipulation and careful use of dragonic magic, because they are not really able to go full frontal with the heavy firepower mankind has at its disposal 2070 even when powered up with protective and offensive magic/foci/spirits/enchants.

It seems that i was wrong.

SYL

Someone should tell Ghostwalker about the skill cap of 7 (with aptitude) ...



I volunteer Synner (Here, take some condiments with you)

What skill cap applies to Dragons? Even in the core rules, normal (non-Great) Dragons have Sorcery and Assensing of 8.

Being such magical (and in some cases, old) beings, they get to keep using the SR2 skill caps. A few of the less traditional dragons are trying to work on a ritual to access the SR3 skill caps instead, hoping that they can isolate the uncapped progression and avoid the glorious mystery that is the Skill Web.

I don't see what' conservative about 100 karma/year. 100 karma is a lot (give 100 karma to a human and he'll become rank 3-4 initiate and increase his magic accordingly)
That would give them several hundred of thousands of karma, and 3-digits magic. A simple combat spell from the would be like a small nuclear blast, and an armor spell would be immune to anything short of a Tsar-bomba grade nuke.
The only way to kill one would be surprise, as I suspect no focus can sustain such a spell.

Listen, short answer is that they're DRAGONS and they pwn you. Srsly.

Oh dragons have ways around those skill caps.

There are a few others in the SR setting who know how to exceed them as well. Though stats for them are stubbornly not given in any edition even when included in an adventure.

Personally I would only use the regular SR4 rules to model a very young adult dragon, not long from its cocoon. Anything else should just violate PCs. The stats given just for an idea of what a dragon could do as a part of a story (i.e. how much they could lift without using magic, the fate thing and so on.)

Dragons like to keep their secrets, and likely they wouldn't show of magics that aren't publicly known unless they really really had to.

But if it matters for a story I would give dragons the ability to use all forms of metamagic.

To put in my two cents worth, I'd like to reiterate what was said by some posters and the rulebook: The stats for great dragons are a SUGGESTION if the GM is pressed for details. They should always be FAR beyond the reach of the players. It's fair to assume that skill caps don't apply for great dragons, but as for dragons, I suppose a skill cap of 12-16 or so would be reasonable. As for hunting down and killing a great dragon, short of a freakin' army (and by that, I mean hundreds or thousands, if not more), it's just not going to happen.

Try a Thor Shot or a nuke.

Anyway, my question was whether or not dragons can initiate (general answer seems to be a resounding yes), and whether or not it increases their Magic rating (mixed answers, leaning toward yes). So, is it fair to assume that dragons can indeed raise their Magic cap through initiation?

Well, Shadowrun's current Line Developer has come right out and stated in this thread that Dragons can and do Initiate, and later on in this same thread he went on to state that Dragons can indeed increase their Magic Attribute. I don't really see how you can require any further clarification.

That I like very much. Fits my world much better.

Oops! Didn't realize he was a Dev! It was late, and I didn't check. I see that, now. Epic fail for me!

Strangely enough, I said the exact same thing in the Ghostwalker thread...

The problem being that it by no means contradicts or cancels out anything previously stated about a great dragon being able to outwit, out maneuver, out magic, and out gun small-scale military units in what is effectively guerrilla warfare (particularly in an urban environment). Governments and militaries can (and do) have all the tools necessary to take out a great dragon, but those resources are irrelevant if the field and circumstances of engagement means they can't effectively be put to use.

While I've got a Developer here, I was wondering if there was an "official" answer to the question in this thread: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...21492&st=25

Or is it just "anything goes", as people are saying?

I doubt you'll get an official answer for metaplane questions. They work pretty much however you want them to at the time.

If a Great Dragon has to be careful not to make any high-tech military mad enough to use that stuff then it's a very different world from what was interferred. It means that ultimately, Ghostwalker and Co. live only as long as they do not push metahumanity too far.

It also means that technology balances magical power out, and "they have uber magic/spells" does not mean "they can't be killed".

Ultimately, Shadowrun, for me, strongly builds on the idea that no matter what man or creature is there, it can be killed. There are no immortal gods, everyone has to be careful about making enemies.

Maybe if a human could live for 30k years they could possibly push their skill cap higher then seven? I mean I personally doubt it, especially if the race in question discovered and perfected magic all on their lonesome. Yeah... that just doesn't make any sense though.