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nathanross
After rereading Harry Potter over the last week, Ive been realizing that SR lacks artifacts. Foci are nice, but what about magical objects. I like anchoring, but it's one use nature really limits it. Is there a way to allow balanced magical objects?
Malicant
Artifacts! I was like Whoa! but then you had to mention Harry Potter and even somehow connect that to SR. Now I hate you. biggrin.gif
MarCazm
Oh man you really read this crap??? And think of using it as a reference??? You gotta be kiddin' right??? eek.gif
Nightwalker450
Ewww.. You got your Potter on my Shadowrun
bjorn
I would say there may be a few, but they will probably be owned by dragons or really powerful magical groups.
Muspellsheimr
I really want to go in front of a church populated by those convinced Harry Potter is evil with a Potter book in one hand, and a satanic bible in the other. Shout at the top of my lungs "SATANISTS AGAINST POTTER!" and burn the Potter book.

Then go home and burn a few more. It is good to play with fire ork.gif

On artifacts, there is no limit to the number of artifacts in Shadowrun, by RAW.

QUOTE (Artifact)
“noun
1. any object made by human beings, esp. with a view to subsequent use.
2. a handmade object, as a tool, or the remains of one, as a shard of pottery, characteristic of an earlier time or cultural stage, esp. such an object found at an archaeological excavation.
3. any mass-produced, usually inexpensive object reflecting contemporary society or popular culture: artifacts of the pop rock generation.
4. a substance or structure not naturally present in the matter being observed but formed by artificial means, as during preparation of a microscope slide.
vladski
Well, there was that power foci thingie from Bottled Demon, circa SR2 (or was it SR1?)

Vlad
Earlydawn
For those of us who are not Potterly-inclined, could you tell us what kind of objects are "artifacts", and what separates them from a SR Focus?
Muspellsheimr
Artifacts, in most Fantasy, are ancient magical items of immense power, usually unable to be created any more due to a loss of general power or knowledge in centuries past. An example would be the One Ring from the Lord of the Rings.

However, see my previous post for the 'correct' definition of an artifact.

Edit:
In Sci-Fi, they usually take the form of advanced alien technology that has been hidden for centuries, and just recently became known. Alternatively, it has been on display or in research labs and only recently 'turned on'.
vladski
QUOTE (Earlydawn @ Apr 29 2008, 05:57 PM) *
For those of us who are not Potterly-inclined, could you tell us what kind of objects are "artifacts", and what separates them from a SR Focus?


You, too, were never properly potter-trained? *snickers*

To be fair, I never read the books, but after seeing hte first movie (and being forced to sit through 2 more due to the kiddies) I never had a desire to. Decent enough entertainment for kids, but I really, really never saw the attraction or what made them so great to adults.

Vlad
Muspellsheimr
The last two, I believe, were okay but not recommended. The first 5 were crap. I still cannot figure out why I bothered to read them...
Stahlseele
ya mean like dis?
http://ancientfiles.dumpshock.com/Spoorn/6.html
Ancient History
They're called unique enchantments in SR, primarily to differentiate from That Other Game, and yes they exist though they are super-rare.
Stahlseele
and my GM's still shudder when i mention playing a mage ever again because of uncle ancient here *g*
yes, i am a BIG Fan of his works *snickers* ^^
last_of_the_great_mikeys
Hmmm...would a piece of Art Dankwalther count as an ARTifact? biggrin.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (last_of_the_great_mikeys @ Apr 30 2008, 10:13 AM) *
Hmmm...would a piece of Art Dankwalther count as an ARTifact?


Maybe, maybe not, but the knowledge that Van Gogh chopped off his ear is definitely an Arty Fact.
Hatspur
Search up Dunklezahn's Will. There's a LOT of Artifacts on there, although I'm not sure how many people on this board consider the will a valid or decent source of SR lore.

I always thought going looking for Custer's rifle, Blackbeard's sword, Caesar's crown & armor, Excalibur, and maybe even the first computer would make for good artifact-based treasure hunting games.
HentaiZonga
You can get a reasonable simulation with Anchoring, if you're willing to blow enough Karma. I always used the 2nd Edition rules for Anchoring, because they're the most flexible - 4th Edition has brought back a lot of that flexibility, but there's still a few things that 2nd Ed did better.

One of my favorite SR moments involved handing my GM a flow chart, linking all the Anchored spells and their detection triggers. I spent WEEKS OOC "programming" the Anchor script, so that the anchors would trigger each other intelligently in response to different kinds of threats. When it finally went off according to plan, it was beautiful.

Cost about 300 Karma, though.

Sir_Psycho
By canon, there's plenty of artifacts in the sixth world. For example, the Jade Dragon of Wind and Fire that is so dearly coveted by Wuxing, which is a powerful Geomantic tool, and can be attributed to their rapid success.

Similar written shenanigans with the coins of luck. Which have been suggested responsible for sterile corp executives wives to become pregnant, among other things.

I'm pretty sure Excalibur is actually a Shadowrun Canon item, and it's wielded by everyone's favourite/loathed clown/mage/swordmaster/immortal elf/GM Fiat, Harlequin.

The best example of actual shadowrunner's being able to interact with these objects is the Survival of The Fittest adventure. Where one mission sets you loose in the ruins of Tehran, trying to steal the Shroud of Shadows, which if I remember, actually has stats.

Of course, such artifacts (and of course, you're encouraged to make up your own, if you really want) only can take place in high-level, high-challenge games. It'd be silly for you to get an artifact, say, an ancient pearl necklace that works as the Reflection Metamagic at 6, and then go back to shadowrunning normally. Artifacts only work in Indiana Jones style games, where you're racing against the Apep Consortium, Draco Foundation as well as countless freelancers and mercenaries through exotic locales.

.http://ancientfiles.dumpshock.com/Artifex.htm
Shiloh
I think most of what you'd call artefacts are probably survivors from previous Thaumaturgical Maxima and you can't really make them yet in the Sixth Age because Magic isn't strong enough. Yet.
Malicant
QUOTE (Shiloh @ Apr 30 2008, 11:14 AM) *
I think most of what you'd call artefacts are probably survivors from previous Thaumaturgical Maxima and you can't really make them yet in the Sixth Age because Magic isn't strong enough. Yet.

Actually you can, if you are very, very powerful and sacrifce yourself to empower it, by, let's say, blowing yourself up after you became President. wink.gif
sunnyside
I think in the prime runners book there was a vampire or somethign with a special artifact.

In addition you'd think there would be bunches of artifacts about from the Eathdawn timefram that already have rules and could presumably be used in a similar manner to foci.

Stahlseele
Martin De Vrieß, Vampire Mage with a special Power-Focus or something like that . .
and usually, there should not be anything magical left from the old worlds, because those things can't live through mana-shallows . . and there was a big shallow all over the world for some thousand years O.o . . one COULD argue that if the physical frame was still intact that if you were to find it you could make it a focus again without needing to gather the ingedrients and making the forumla and all that crap . . but you'd have to spend more karma for it to get magics again . .
Critias
I remember an Elven Street Sam from Prime Runners that had one, too. He was so cool he could use two smartlinks at the same time, but he also had something that muddied memories of him or something like that (the name of which escapes me, but someone else might know).

Artifacts certainly exist in Shadowrun, but much like magic items previously to D&D 3.0+, there aren't really rules for PCs to make 'em.
Stahlseele
aside from the approach of Uncle Ancient and his unique enchantments utilizing bound free spirits *g*
Shiloh
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Apr 30 2008, 11:48 AM) *
Martin De Vrieß, Vampire Mage with a special Power-Focus or something like that . .
and usually, there should not be anything magical left from the old worlds, because those things can't live through mana-shallows . . and there was a big shallow all over the world for some thousand years O.o . . one COULD argue that if the physical frame was still intact that if you were to find it you could make it a focus again without needing to gather the ingedrients and making the forumla and all that crap . . but you'd have to spend more karma for it to get magics again . .


Or maybe like Dragons and the Immortals who were Mages in prior Ages, the artefacts which are still around just went to sleep and refilled with their power,or "awoke" when the levels rise again.
Fuchs
Ancient magic items are a staple in my games. Usually cursed though, or otherwise "Plot deviced", not as gear.
HentaiZonga
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Apr 30 2008, 03:48 AM) *
Martin De Vrieß, Vampire Mage with a special Power-Focus or something like that . .
and usually, there should not be anything magical left from the old worlds, because those things can't live through mana-shallows . . and there was a big shallow all over the world for some thousand years O.o . . one COULD argue that if the physical frame was still intact that if you were to find it you could make it a focus again without needing to gather the ingedrients and making the forumla and all that crap . . but you'd have to spend more karma for it to get magics again . .


Isn't that just called "Bonding", though?
Stahlseele
maybe, but usually the thing is made in one magical world and not a left over thing from another . .
Hat
In a previous campaign I played in, the GM created unique weapon. It was a wolf totem tied weapon and in addition to the standard weapon focus rating it had addtional bonuses for raging and armor penetration. I forget if we were playing 2nd or 3rd Ed. 3rd I think.

For my campaign, I've just created a unique weapon, though it hasn't seen light in the campaign yet. It is a oriculchum and jade dao sword, with the handle carved in the form of a Chinese dragon and the same image etched along the blade. Named for the dragon that's the keeper and protector of the heavens (don't have the write up in front of me) it lends its strength in defending the bonded weilder against hostile magics. In addition to the general rating of the weapon focus itself, the blade will also grant the weilder the ability to counterspell if not already posessed, add the metamagic ability of shielding when wielded and add it's rating to the dice pool for the counterspell attempts. Intended for adepts it's still useful to mages. I will figure out the progression of abilities and rather than charge the full cost of binding up front, the wielder can bond the weapon in stages over time. I expect that the total karma to bind will be like 30+ so something to grow into.

Of course the group will first encounter the sword fully bound to an initiate grade adept so they get to deal with it first before having any chance of claiming it.

With a sweep of his...

Hat
nathanross
Im kind of disappointed that most of the thread has been wasted on Potter-hate. It really isnt that bad. Also, as should have been assumed from my post, the artifacts I am referring to are magical artifacts, not just anything made by humans (which constitutes quite a lot in SR, and for the creation of which, there are rules already).

I guess what I see is not massive things of power, but just little things that are cool. Maps that draw themselves, balls that whistle when someone suspicious is around, mirrors that show you enemies when they are near, etc. I am not trying to make SR like Harry Potter, please understand. I merely want long term anchoring, and quickening to objects. Is this unbalanced?
Drogos
Balance issues of artifacts are directly correlated to their frequency of appearance and what abilities they possess. If there's an uber magical device of world ending, it's really not that unbalancing if it never shows up in your game...ever. Same goes for all your Potter-esque ideas (no matter how out of place the Potter world is in SR).
Fortune
QUOTE (Critias @ Apr 30 2008, 08:49 PM) *
I remember an Elven Street Sam from Prime Runners that had one, too.


Teachdaire! wink.gif
MarCazm
QUOTE (nathanross @ Apr 30 2008, 08:34 PM) *
Im kind of disappointed that most of the thread has been wasted on Potter-hate. It really isnt that bad.


Yeah right. It's much worse!!! mad.gif
Stahlseele
*shrugs*
you post a target that big and expect people not to take a shot at it?
i only did not, because it'S not worth my time *g*
Shiloh
QUOTE (nathanross @ Apr 30 2008, 07:34 PM) *
I guess what I see is not massive things of power, but just little things that are cool. Maps that draw themselves, balls that whistle when someone suspicious is around, mirrors that show you enemies when they are near, etc. I am not trying to make SR like Harry Potter, please understand. I merely want long term anchoring, and quickening to objects. Is this unbalanced?


If you can make such things, you have to explain why they are not commonplace. Given the ability of players to sidestep simple restrictions, it's probably wise to make MI building a no-no. Especially if the rules are as half-assed as some of the canonical rules are.

It's one of the things *most* to be hated about Potter: the world just plain flat-out *doesn't work*.
Stahlseele
kinda like the SR World <.< . .
if you really THINK about it, SR just does not work . .
Shiloh
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ May 1 2008, 03:04 PM) *
kinda like the SR World <.< . .
if you really THINK about it, SR just does not work . .

True, but you actually have to think about it rather than it leaping out of the page and grabbing you by the throat, screaming "
Shiloh
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ May 1 2008, 03:04 PM) *
kinda like the SR World <.< . .
if you really THINK about it, SR just does not work . .

True, but you actually have to think about it rather than it leaping out of the page and grabbing you by the throat, screaming "I AM A WORLD THAT DOESN'T WORK!!!!!"
sunnyside
For little cool stuff there were plenty of things from ED.

Pots that heat themselves up for example. I forget what some of the other common magical items were.

I'd think the ED stuff would survive fairly intact as long as the frame held together.

The trick being that for ED weapons and such I might require players to get the Key knowledges (stuff like who made it, what the weapon is called). This could prove very difficult for SR character. Though it could be amusing for them to have a magical item that seems to be bindable they just can't figure out how.
Stahlseele
pots that heat themselves?
such things like those hermetically sealed diners runners are so fond of because they can be stored forever and a day and heat themselves on the press of a button? o.O
Critias
Which is precisely why you don't see many "magic gadgets" in Shadowrun -- pots that heat themselves with kernels of Elemental Fire can be replicated quite handily by chemical heaters (like those found in MREs). "Maps that draw themselves?" Mobile GPS system, and a printer. "Balls that whistle when someone suspicious is around?" MAD scanners, alarm systems, motion detectors. "Mirrors that show you enemies when they are near?" Closed-system security cameras and monitors.

Why do with magic (which requires, what, 2% of the population, sometimes a karma investment) what you can do already so very easily with tech, in Shadowrun?
sunnyside
Actually for a lot of the Earthdawn items the technology thing is a good point. For example they occasionally dig up vicing longships. So in principle some achaelogical dig could find an old Theran Kilas (A large airship made out of stone).

However cool as that would be it takes a literal army of trained adepts to get one of those off the ground, and even then I'm not sure how well it would compete with modern military aircraft.

The nice thing about some of this is you could include some ED stuff without having to worry about it being crazy broken. Any weapon you can limit by not letting them have access to key knowledges, and everything else is would be cool but not broken.

I think for a general use valuable thing you could have some of the old blood charms.
Screamin Demon
Harry Potter was a decent read. Dragon Ball Z was a decent anime.
Neither has any business being used as a benchmark to measure anything in the Shadowrun world.

On the topic of artifacts...
I remember in the sega genesis shadowrun game that jackle headed asshole you spent the whole game doing legwork on was digging up old artifacts to eat them.

I can see real ancient artifacts of native American or Aztecan origin having latent mystic potential. Same goes for any old stuff from any old civilization. Stonehenge is a huge mojo nexus aint it?

I can totally see some Shadowrunners and the Temple of Doom action with some sacred stones thrown in there somewhere.
nathanross
QUOTE (sunnyside @ May 1 2008, 03:12 PM) *
For little cool stuff there were plenty of things from ED.

Pots that heat themselves up for example.

That is TOTALLY the shit I'm talking about! I can do without magic bags of holding as that is very un-SR, but I like little shit that makes the day different. Not that it couldn't be accomplished just as well (or better) with modern technology (like Stahlseele mentions MREs), it would be accomplished differently, and I like that.
Synner667
Isn't there a whole load of crystal/blood magic items from Earthdawn that would fit the criteria, and fit a SR setting [crystal lenses of targeting, for instance].

The Earthdawn system for items really makes it a challenge to discover all about a magic item, and provides a sense of accomplishment when you can use the item abilities.

It's an interesting discussion, how much tech would overlap with magic...
...Would some things just not exist [medical treatment, when you can use healing water/moss or spells; short term golems, instead of permanent armies]

In Castle Falkenstein, they have engines that actually generate magical energy.
Stahlseele
QUOTE
In Castle Falkenstein, they have engines that actually generate magical energy.

shadowrun, earthdawn or reality? *g*
if it's either the first or the last i think everybody and their dead mom would be running to find out how to do that O.o
and of course, there are many things bound to not be made again that have been there in earth-dawn . .
best examples are those self heating meals in comparsion to the self heating pots of old o.O
it can be done without getting a hangover, it has been done that way for hundreds of years, it frigging works and has been done often enough to be almost perfect . . well, not in taste maybe . .
so why would one go and try to recreate something like that with magic? only reason i could think of would be the same people give when they are asked why they climb mountains:"because they are there/because i can!"
JeffSz
Personally I'd be happy if my mage could pack a spell into something and pass it off to a teammate... then that non-mage teammate could use that object as a one-time-use spell.

Example: mage "casts" a Stench spell as normal, with +1 to the threshold and/or +1 to drain. Instead of happening immediately, the spell is stored in a wooden dowal the size of a cigarette. He passes it off to a buddy, who is a cyber-sam (equipped with a gas mask): 20 minutes later, the Sammy and the mage are split up, and the Sammy finds himself surrounded by four or five thugs too many; a quick Snap of the Twig and the Stench spell explodes around him, sending the thugs to their knees retching while he makes a run for it.

Sure, it could be done with tech. But what about Improved Invisibility? Or a tennis ball with a Firewater spell cast on it? Toss the tennis ball at someone...and suddenly it's a ball of burning water! OH MY!
Jaid
QUOTE (JeffSz @ May 12 2008, 07:58 PM) *
Personally I'd be happy if my mage could pack a spell into something and pass it off to a teammate... then that non-mage teammate could use that object as a one-time-use spell.

Example: mage "casts" a Stench spell as normal, with +1 to the threshold and/or +1 to drain. Instead of happening immediately, the spell is stored in a wooden dowal the size of a cigarette. He passes it off to a buddy, who is a cyber-sam (equipped with a gas mask): 20 minutes later, the Sammy and the mage are split up, and the Sammy finds himself surrounded by four or five thugs too many; a quick Snap of the Twig and the Stench spell explodes around him, sending the thugs to their knees retching while he makes a run for it.

Sure, it could be done with tech. But what about Improved Invisibility? Or a tennis ball with a Firewater spell cast on it? Toss the tennis ball at someone...and suddenly it's a ball of burning water! OH MY!

so... in other words... an achored spell?
JeffSz
You telling me the ONE thing I wanted all along was in Street Magic this entire time? AAH! I must have missed it while skimming thru the book looking for it. nyahnyah.gif
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