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Tanka
As the title states: I got bored at work. Really bored. So I figured I should do some comparing of all the major creation systems.

All characters were created equally. Made first using Priority, then recreated using BeCKS2 and Build Point.

Four were made. A Troll combat-guy, a full mage Human, a Dwarf Physical Adept, and an Elvish Conjuring Adept.

The only things that were spread out were Attributes and Skills, just for argument's sake and making it so none of them had to spend extra points to go over the linked attribute.

The format will be as follows:

Name: <insert>
Priorities: A/B/C/D/E
Attributes: Bod/Qui/Str/Cha/Int/Wil
Skills: <Name: Rating>/<Name: Rating>/etc...
BeCKS2 Cost:
BP Cost:

Troll Combat-guy
Resources/Attributes/Race/Skills/Magic
11 (12)/5/10/1/1/3
Pistols: 5/SMGs: 5/Shotguns: 5/Unarmed Combat: 5/Clubs: 5/Pole Arms & Staffs: 5
494 Karma (+69)
124 BP (+1)

Human Mage
Magic/Attributes/Resources/Skills/Race
3/4/2/6/6/6
Sorcery: 6/Conjuring: 6/Astral Combat: 6/Centering: 6/Enchanting: 6
445 Karma (+20)
124 BP (+1)

Dwarf Physical Adept
Attributes/Magic/Skills/Race/Resources
6/6/6/4/6/6
Unarmed Combat: 6/Stealth: 6/Athletics: 6/Small Unit Tactics: 6/Centering: 6/Leadership: 4
500 Karma (+75)
124 BP (+1)

Elf Conjuring Adept
Resources/Magic/Race/Attributes/Skills
1/2/1/8/6/6
Conjuring: 6/Enchanting: 6/Astral Combat: 6/Ettiquette (Magical): 5 (7)/Centering: 3
453 Karma (+28)
134 BP (+11)

This is if all my calculations are correct, and I believe they are (They could be wrong. It is 2:30 AM, after all).

Take what you will from it. BeCKS2 tends to make less powerful characters, while BP usually makes about even characters with Priority. This is out of the four stereotypical random characters I threw together, however.
Herald of Verjigorm
Because BeCKS systems use the canon karma costs as a basis for the system, it also experiences the progressive cost increases for higher attributes and skills. It provides generalists much cheaper than the other systems but almost prohibits specialist style characters.

Drop each skill by 1 and then add a new skill with those skill points/BPs, the BeCKS system will often lower the total cost when you apply the same skill adjustment.
TinkerGnome
The "trick" to BeCKs is to specialize skills whenever possible. For instance, instead of Conjuring 6, a BeCKs character gets more bang from Conjuring(summoning) 4/7 or the like.
Shockwave_IIc
I noticed that myself Tinkergnome the frist time i used Becks (last 5 days BTW) But i find that specializing to early slows down later development. I'ts ok if your going for a one off game or such, But if you intend to play the character for a while (Which i always do) Your need a good base skill before you specialize.
Tanka
Exactly. What happens when the GM throws a spirit at the Conjuring Adept, and he can only Banish? Wow, a whole four dice. An extra one or two would be nice for the times in which you have to sit down and do a range of things from Summoning to Banishing.
Ancient History
I like the priority system. I'm old-fashioned that way.
Tanka
I do too, usually.

It can be a whore when you just don't need that last 20k nuyen.gif however.

I won't even go into Sum-to-10. Most of the time it's used by Mundane Humans so they can take gobs of other things. *stab*

Yes, most. Sometimes it isn't done like that. Sometimes.
Shockwave_IIc
My personal choice is Bp's.

People say it screws mages over, which is why i also let Priority if they ask. But Sum to 10 while a nice idea, is flawed. I'm not saying Bp's arn't flawed but that can be combated with a bit of GM backbone.

Anyhow i'll stop now before i start ranting.....
gknoy
QUOTE (tanka)
I won't even go into Sum-to-10. Most of the time it's used by Mundane Humans so they can take gobs of other things. *stab*

Of course, those of us that /like/ to play mundane humans like the idea of being able to get more bang for the buck. wink.gif (Granted, I haven't played a mundane human in a long time, and even then it was resources C, and have never used sum to ten ... but I /did/ read about it and say, "Awesome!!" wink.gif)
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (tanka)
I won't even go into Sum-to-10. Most of the time it's used by Mundane Humans so they can take gobs of other things. *stab*

Yes, most. Sometimes it isn't done like that. Sometimes.

ohplease.gif

Yes, while the elves and dwarves are getting +3-4 Attribute Points, free natural vision mods, Dermal Armor, resistance to toxins, and the like, those pesky mundane humans under the Sum-to-Ten are getting maybe 3 more Attribute points, 10 Skill points, or a bit more Resources. Bloody munchkins!
Tanka
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
QUOTE (tanka @ Dec 11 2003, 04:35 PM)
I won't even go into Sum-to-10.  Most of the time it's used by Mundane Humans so they can take gobs of other things.  *stab*

Yes, most.  Sometimes it isn't done like that.  Sometimes.

ohplease.gif

Yes, while the elves and dwarves are getting +3-4 Attribute Points, free natural vision mods, Dermal Armor, resistance to toxins, and the like, those pesky mundane humans under the Sum-to-Ten are getting maybe 3 more Attribute points, 10 Skill points, or a bit more Resources. Bloody munchkins!

Exactly!

Now quit being facetious or I'll be forced to dehumanize you in the most humanizing fashion ever.
Siege
Give it a shot tank -- nobody else has managed it quite yet.

-Siege
Shinobi Killfist
QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)
QUOTE (tanka @ Dec 11 2003, 04:35 PM)
I won't even go into Sum-to-10.  Most of the time it's used by Mundane Humans so they can take gobs of other things.  *stab*

Yes, most.  Sometimes it isn't done like that.  Sometimes.

ohplease.gif

Yes, while the elves and dwarves are getting +3-4 Attribute Points, free natural vision mods, Dermal Armor, resistance to toxins, and the like, those pesky mundane humans under the Sum-to-Ten are getting maybe 3 more Attribute points, 10 Skill points, or a bit more Resources. Bloody munchkins!

Yep mundane humans are virtually worthless without sum to 10, at least in sum to 10 they aren't a dumb choice.
Tanka
*cough*

He was being sarcastic, methinks.
Siege
QUOTE (tanka)
*cough*

He was being sarcastic, methinks.

The scary part is -- I don't think Shinobi was being sarcastic.

-Siege
Tanka
QUOTE (Siege)
QUOTE (tanka @ Dec 11 2003, 11:52 PM)
*cough*

He was being sarcastic, methinks.

The scary part is -- I don't think Shinobi was being sarcastic.

-Siege

Me either.
Shinobi Killfist
actually I was, I guess I suck at typed sarcasm. Even if I hadn't caught the sarcasm on my on I can read and the post after it begins with "Now quit being facetious "
Fahr
I think that Becks adresses an issue that is present in both BP and Priority, most people are a lot less specialized than those systems represent. Becks is there to keep players whose nature is to min max from creating unrealistic stats for metagaming reasons.

I don't know any real world people with very few skills at the equivelant of 6, and none at 1 or 2, that doesn't make sense to me. Now, Becks does not prevent this, any more than priority requires it, but it makes less economic sense to a min-maxer to do that in becks, while it makes more sense to a min maxer to do it under priority or bp.

The Becks description says this better than I am. I use Becks almost exclusively, becuase it tends to make more balanced realistic characters (IMHO). is it the Best system? of course not, there is no Best. but as a GM I prefer more rounded charachters.

My players are not bad roleplayers, no matter what system I chose They would roleplay, and as GM I can always disallow or require modifications to any charachter that come through my hands. but that tends to start things off more confrontational than I want, it's better for me to use a system that encourages the behaviour I want without needing my prompting.

-Mike R.
Kagetenshi
BeCKS in my experience ends up with too many mid-level skills. More people have a few high skills and a very few low skills than have most skills at mid-range, IMO.

~J
Zeittotschlager
In response to Fahr about characters with most level 6 skills and few or no skills at 1 or 2...

My own rationalization of this is that you assume your character can drive a car whether he has Driving skill or not. He just doesn't perform well in a combat/evasion situation. I naturally assume my characters can brush their teeth witout Toothbrushing 3. They can also wipe their bums without Bum Wiping 3. If, however, there was a combat situation in the Bathroom, they might later regret not taking Toothbrush (Reach Sonicare) 5 (7)... smile.gif

So I look at it as if all the characters in Shadowrun are above average. They can do the things that normal people do, but the Active Skills that they take ranks in are things that they do REALLY well.

-Z
Solidcobra
Personally i like Points best, i've never used BECKS or sum-to-ten, priority is good, but my very min-maxy, powergaming, close to munchkin, sense of mind feels that getting to use EVERY single point to it's most value is fun!
Besides, the Edges/Flaws won't have to equal 0 with the point system....
Rev
The problem with low skills (1-2) is that in shadowrun they are almost useless unless you attributes are also all 1-2. Normal charachters have a similar chance of success defaulting from an attribute. A quirk of the system.

I like points because I find it to be easiest to use. I really like it when you add in a continuous resources table.

Sadly I cannot remember who made this table, it wasn't me.
-5 ======= 500
-4 = 1,400
-3 = 2,300
-2 = 3,200
-1 = 4,100
0 ===== 5,000
1 = 8,000
2 = 11,000
3 = 14,000
4 = 17,000
5 ==== 20,000
6 = 34,000
7 = 48,000
8 = 62,000
9 = 76,000
10 ==== 90,000
11 = 112,000
12 = 134,000
13 = 156,000
14 = 178,000
15 === 200,000
16 = 240,000
17 = 280,000
18 = 320,000
19 = 360,000
20 === 400,000
21 = 450,000
22 = 500,000
23 = 550,000
24 = 600,000
25 === 650,000
26 = 720,000
27 = 790,000
28 = 860,000
29 = 930,000
30 = 1,000,000
last_of_the_great_mikeys
I disagree about sum to 10 being flawed, but, for those of you who think it's making humans too desirable, I offer a simple solution and an olive branch of peace:

Take away the 10 karma rule and give them the metahuman 20 karma rule. Then you're dead even.
Ol' Scratch
The funny thing is that they're saying the Sum-to-Ten is flawed for giving Mundane Humans more "points." While both the Build Point and BeCKS system do the exact... same... thing.
TinkerGnome
I'd argue the point in reverse. The priority system has a flaw that does its best to screw a mundane human out of 5 "points". When you have to "buy" nothing with one of your options (the D option), then that's a flaw in the system.

Which is the character type that, ironicly, should make up 50%+ of the world population. By penalizing them, they become rare... which is odd.
kevyn668
@ Rev: I've seen it too!! But I couldn't remember where!! THANK YOU!

I play those pesky humans and I too have the problem of having "extra" cash at the end b/c 20k isn't enough but sometimes 90k is more than I need. I can blow it by buying up contacts all over the world and stashing extra guns, ammo, and armor in train station/airport lockers (which has paid off one or twice--but only once or twice) but I'd rather have a few xtra points here and there! smile.gif
gknoy
QUOTE (Zeittotschlager)
If, however, there was a combat situation in the Bathroom, they might later regret not taking Toothbrush (Reach Sonicare) 5 (7)... smile.gif

... which would allow them to brush their teeth with the utmost of skill in even the most demanding combat situations! biggrin.gif

If they wanted to use it as a weapon, I'd probably force them to default to Clubs, or Eye Poking (quickness? Strength? whichever is highest?).

Unless they were an absolute LOON and actually developed a martial arts form which revolved around using an electric toothbrush as an offensive weapon (contrasting with some gangers' (and teachers' assistants) disuse as an offensive tactic wink.gif), complete with corresponding adept powers and maneuvers. In that case, I'd sit back with popcorn as that Fuchi strike team got their asses handed to them (and their teeth brushed) in the harsh, confined quarters of a dingy bathroom.

grinbig.gif
Tanka
One of my friends plays an Adept that uses a towel in aiding his melee.

He got the idea from Hitchhiker's Guide. indifferent.gif
Shockwave_IIc
QUOTE (Rev)
Sadly I cannot remember who made this table, it wasn't me.
-5 ======= 500
-4 = 1,400
-3 = 2,300
-2 = 3,200
-1 = 4,100
<Snip>

I beleive it was Sphnyx but i might be wrong. Looks like a good idea, Though i have yet to use it myself.


One thing which does get me about Bp's and priority is the cost of manouvers. 2 and 8 skill points is a bit much. Wheres Becks it's Karma. Maybe it should be 1 and 4? for skill points that is?
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