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MadPiper
Would heal be able to close wounds, cuts, bruises, etc etc on a dead body? I mean, its dead, but could it heal it to a healthy dead body? Lol, just wondering if I could use this on my victims to make it harder to figure out how they died. Just curious.
coolgrafix
I don't see why it would. What you seem to need is a new spell that "mends." And using the spell creation rules you can probably accomplish this.
Stahlseele
probably easier done than usual heal too . . only object resistance i'd say . . but where to place a body on the table? O.o
natural unrefined? with magical types probably, but with street-sams? o.O
MarCazm
Heal = Manabased spell, which don't work on objects.
Dead bodies = object.

You may create a spell which will have that effect, but only that effect and nothing more.

Or try not to kill people. Shocker or Gel is more appropriate.

Else you want to push your notoriety to the same notoriety level like a serial killer.
Fortune
I wouldn't let Heal work, as the body is not alive, but Fix might work a charm if you can cast it at a high enough force.
hyzmarca
The spells you are looking for are Shape Flesh and Shape Bone. I prefer to use them to turn the corpses of my targets into dadaist sculptures and sell them to private collectors, but they should also work for mending wounds.
MarCazm
Maybe we should change Shadowrun to Psychorun. No disrespect. biggrin.gif
hyzmarca
QUOTE (MarCazm @ Apr 30 2008, 07:03 PM) *
Maybe we should change Shadowrun to Psychorun. No disrespect. biggrin.gif


You really have to think long and hard about how a given corpse will be most profitable, chopped up and sold piecemeal to black market hospitals and ghoul feed dealers, secretly zombiefied using an Inhabitation Ally and put back as if it were still alive to work as a double agent, or turned into art and sold on the black market. The latter can be most profitable is an artist is able to make a name for himself.

Fix probably won't work because a corpse's barrier rating is only marginally related to the living person's health.
Fortune
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ May 1 2008, 09:20 AM) *
Fix probably won't work because a corpse's barrier rating is only marginally related to the living person's health.


Why would the Barrier Rating apply at all?

The OR would be almost nothing, being that the body itself is typically close to 'natural' in and of itself. It's the weight restrictions that would hamper Fix.
MarCazm
So we're really ended up in Psychorun. biggrin.gif
Cain
QUOTE (Fortune @ Apr 30 2008, 03:27 PM) *
Why would the Barrier Rating apply at all?

The OR would be almost nothing, being that the body itself is typically close to 'natural' in and of itself. It's the weight restrictions that would hamper Fix.

Wouldn't that depend on how much cyber the body has? Or more precicely, how much Essence it had left?
masterofm
fix or repair sound like a good option.
Fortune
QUOTE (Cain @ May 1 2008, 09:37 AM) *
Wouldn't that depend on how much cyber the body has? Or more precicely, how much Essence it had left?


Definitely, which is why I said 'typically'. smile.gif
hyzmarca
Fix repairs structure rating. A fatal wound might not cause any damage to a body's structure. Heal does nothing it a target does not have any boxes of damage and fix does nothing if an object has no damage. But structure damage and wounds do not necessary equate to each other.

Another way of looking at it is that Fix can mend a broken statue but it can't turn that statue back into a chunk of granite. Once an object has been transformed into another fix uses its new base structure rather than its old one to make repairs. Otherwise it would be impossible to Fix any manufactured object since the spell would instead revert its components back to its their original forms. If you shoot a person in the head you transform him into an object called a corpse with a hole in its head. That hole is a feature, not a defect. The object never existed without that hole.
Tarantula
I'd have to weigh in that either fix or shape flesh would be most appropriate.
Fortune
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ May 1 2008, 09:57 AM) *
Fix repairs structure rating. A fatal wound might not cause any damage to a body's structure. Heal does nothing it a target does not have any boxes of damage and fix does nothing if an object has no damage. But structure damage and wounds do not necessary equate to each other.


Since the premise of the original post was to mend a body to hide the evidence of cause of death (' close wounds, cuts, bruises, etc etc'), I don't think this applies.

QUOTE
Another way of looking at it is that Fix can mend a broken statue but it can't turn that statue back into a chunk of granite. Once an object has been transformed into another fix uses its new base structure rather than its old one to make repairs. Otherwise it would be impossible to Fix any manufactured object since the spell would instead revert its components back to its their original forms. If you shoot a person in the head you transform him into an object called a corpse with a hole in its head. That hole is a feature, not a defect. The object never existed without that hole.


That's a stretch. In my opinion, the corpse still has an idealized state, which is what would it would return to with the application of the spell. It's hard enough to get both the Force high enough and enough successes (the weight restriction is Force x successes in kg) that this isn't going to be a common thing to do.
hyzmarca
The problem there is that it quickly turns any corpse into an infinite heart machine. Cut out the corpse's heart, cast fix, and cut out its heart again. Repeat to your heart's content, selling the extras to organleggers for a tidy profit.

Of course, that is both difficult and silly. A easier scheme is to use a ring of infinite diamonds. Get a diamond ring, pop out the diamond, cast fix on the fix, and pop out the diamond again. Repeat until the diamond market has collapsed.


For the this reason, so that Fix can't be used as a cheap Create [Part] spell, I'd have to rule that any act of creation or modification (except for attacks that cause damage) results in a new object for the purpose of the Fix spell.
And I'd have to rule that killing a person creates an entirely new object for the purpose of the fix spell and that this new object's idealized state is its initial state at the time of death. This Fix could reverse decomposition but it couldn't heal a fatal wound and couldn't create a new person from the man-leather bindings of an ancient tome that was never meant of the eyes of mortals.
Cain
Somebody check me on this, but I think you need a living heart to transplant. Once the body is dead, you can make as many dead hearts as you like, but they wouldn't be suitable for transplant. You may end up with an infinite food supply, but that's not much of a problem.
Tarantula
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Apr 30 2008, 06:29 PM) *
The problem there is that it quickly turns any corpse into an infinite heart machine. Cut out the corpse's heart, cast fix, and cut out its heart again. Repeat to your heart's content, selling the extras to organleggers for a tidy profit.

Of course, that is both difficult and silly. A easier scheme is to use a ring of infinite diamonds. Get a diamond ring, pop out the diamond, cast fix on the fix, and pop out the diamond again. Repeat until the diamond market has collapsed.


For the this reason, so that Fix can't be used as a cheap Create [Part] spell, I'd have to rule that any act of creation or modification (except for attacks that cause damage) results in a new object for the purpose of the Fix spell.
And I'd have to rule that killing a person creates an entirely new object for the purpose of the fix spell and that this new object's idealized state is its initial state at the time of death. This Fix could reverse decomposition but it couldn't heal a fatal wound and couldn't create a new person from the man-leather bindings of an ancient tome that was never meant of the eyes of mortals.


I'd argue that "fixing" it would cause the arteries/veins that were connected to the heart would repair themselves, looking as if the heart had teleported out of its place. They wouldn't be torn/cut/etc looking, it'd be as if the heart had just vanished.

As far as the diamond ring, you pop the diamond out, fix would repair the setting to the state it was in before you pryed the diamond out and bent the pins and whatnot. The pins would bend back, the finish would be restored, but it wouldn't spawn a diamond. Again, it would be as if the diamond had teleported out of the ring.
Fortune
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ May 1 2008, 10:29 AM) *
The problem there is that it quickly turns any corpse into an infinite heart machine. Cut out the corpse's heart, cast fix, and cut out its heart again. Repeat to your heart's content, selling the extras to organleggers for a tidy profit.


Nope. Fix specifically requires that all the 'parts' be present. No heart or diamond machine for you. wink.gif
MadPiper
Very interesting responses, so fix or shape flesh would be most appropriate. Sounds good. Although were is this shape flesh spell you speak of? I never heard of it, or missed it, what book is it in?

QUOTE
Or try not to kill people. Shocker or Gel is more appropriate.


I try not too, but sometimes you have too. This question was not to help become a successful serial killer or anything like that. Just a way to try to make it as hard as possible to investigate my butt when it does happen. smile.gif

CanRay
Lots of acid spells. No body, no problem. nyahnyah.gif
Kingmaker
Feed the corpse to pigs.
HentaiZonga
QUOTE (CanRay @ May 1 2008, 10:27 AM) *
Lots of acid spells. No body, no problem. nyahnyah.gif


I've got a better one.

Step one: Have the Sam cut the body open.

Step two: Have the Sam wrap himself up in the corpse (this will get a little messy, but only for a minute). Bonus points if you cut off the head and wear it as a hat.

Step three: Have the Sam invoke the Sacred Words of Enabling: "Hey, Look! He's a Jacket! Cast Fashion on me, quick!"

Step four: Sam and Mage skip out into the neon glow of the street-lights, whistling hand-in-hand, with the Sam enjoying his new leather trenchcoat.
paws2sky
QUOTE (CanRay @ May 1 2008, 12:27 PM) *
Lots of acid spells. No body, no problem. nyahnyah.gif


See also: a syndicate run pig farm
CanRay
QUOTE (paws2sky @ May 1 2008, 12:41 PM) *
See also: a syndicate run pig farm

That didn't work so well in BC... dead.gif
hyzmarca
QUOTE (MadPiper @ May 1 2008, 01:26 PM) *
Very interesting responses, so fix or shape flesh would be most appropriate. Sounds good. Although were is this shape flesh spell you speak of? I never heard of it, or missed it, what book is it in?



Shape Flesh is a member of the Shape [Material] spell family, found in Street Magic. It allows one to alter the shape of a given material within an area in any way the caster desires at a set rate. Each material has its own spell, though according to spell design rules there should also be a version of Shape without a target limitation.

HentaiZonga, that's actually a brilliant use for the Fashion spell.
HentaiZonga
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ May 1 2008, 11:49 AM) *
Shape Flesh is a member of the Shape [Material] spell family, found in Street Magic. It allows one to alter the shape of a given material within an area in any way the caster desires at a set rate. Each material has its own spell, though according to spell design rules there should also be a version of Shape without a target limitation.

HentaiZonga, that's actually a brilliant use for the Fashion spell.


Hey, parts is parts, right?
cryptoknight
QUOTE (HentaiZonga @ May 1 2008, 12:39 PM) *
I've got a better one.

Step one: Have the Sam cut the body open.

Step two: Have the Sam wrap himself up in the corpse (this will get a little messy, but only for a minute). Bonus points if you cut off the head and wear it as a hat.

Step three: Have the Sam invoke the Sacred Words of Enabling: "Hey, Look! He's a Jacket! Cast Fashion on me, quick!"

Step four: Sam and Mage skip out into the neon glow of the street-lights, whistling hand-in-hand, with the Sam enjoying his new leather trenchcoat.



I just lost my lunch...
Tarantula
I just wonder if a ghoul could succeed on a scent based perception check to smell that that coat would make a good snack.
Stahlseele
shape flesh . . let enemeies eyes grow a layer of non see through flesh over them? O.o close their mouth and nose and have them suffocate? O.o peel back flesh and skin from fingers and watch them scream as the weapons cut into their raw nerve endings?
and i like the fashion thing *g*
Tarantula
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ May 1 2008, 01:31 PM) *
shape flesh . . let enemeies eyes grow a layer of non see through flesh over them? O.o close their mouth and nose and have them suffocate? O.o peel back flesh and skin from fingers and watch them scream as the weapons cut into their raw nerve endings?
and i like the fashion thing *g*


Shape flesh wouldn't create new flesh, just move whats already there. I'd probably call it when used as a damaging spell as this: Base DV of force, resisted by body, threshold of body.
ZenGamer
*sigh*

Now we're in the realm of the Vicissitude discipline from Vampire the Masquerade. I thought this was a Shadorun forum???

.
Nightwalker450
QUOTE (ZenGamer @ May 1 2008, 03:02 PM) *
Now we're in the realm of the Vicissitude discipline from Vampire the Masquerade. I thought this was a Shadorun forum???


I'm with you on that... After this run (maybe 2 more sessions or 1 month), my group is switching to Vamps, so no more running for me for a while. I'll probably still be ghosting this forum though, because I don't think there'd be a Vamps forum that would be as interesting as this.

So enough Vamps, we need Shadowrun biggrin.gif
hyzmarca
Given that the rules go out of their way to avoid sustained spells that deal continuous damage over time, I'd say that the potential for Shape [Material] variants to be used on living critters, characters, and vehicles was an unintended oversight and that Shape [Material] should not have any effect on these three classes of being, leaving Shape Flesh useful for playing with corpses but not for killing people.
Nightwalker450
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ May 1 2008, 03:43 PM) *
Given that the rules go out of their way to avoid sustained spells that deal continuous damage over time, I'd say that the potential for Shape [Material] variants to be used on living critters, characters, and vehicles was an unintended oversight and that Shape [Material] should not have any effect on these three classes of being, leaving Shape Flesh useful for playing with corpses but not for killing people.


Why did you include vehicles in there? Cyberzombie?
Tarantula
Maybe a blanket, shape [material] isn't able to affect damage boxes is in order.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ May 1 2008, 04:47 PM) *
Why did you include vehicles in there? Cyberzombie?


Because vehicles and drones have damage boxes. If Shape Material is taken at face value then you could plausibly space a tank in half.
Mordinvan
And why would shaping a tank be any different then shaping an unwielded armor plate which would have been attached to the tank's surface? I can't see how mana would/could tell the difference?
HentaiZonga
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ May 1 2008, 09:29 PM) *
And why would shaping a tank be any different then shaping an unwielded armor plate which would have been attached to the tank's surface? I can't see how mana would/could tell the difference?


Because the armor was designed for the tank by a metahuman with intent, and it was welded onto the tank by a metahuman with intent, and the tank is piloted by a metahuman with intent, who calls it 'my tank' (or even 'Martha', if he intuitively grasps the power of Names) and who declares in his essence that Martha includes this slab of armor, and not that one.

That's how magic works.
CanRay
"Names had power to people such as her. People who knew my name could get my attention, which was power enough, come to think of it." - Jon "Money" Johnson, Shadowrun: On The Hunt
Nightwalker450
QUOTE (HentaiZonga @ May 2 2008, 03:11 AM) *
Because the armor was designed for the tank by a metahuman with intent, and it was welded onto the tank by a metahuman with intent, and the tank is piloted by a metahuman with intent, who calls it 'my tank' (or even 'Martha', if he intuitively grasps the power of Names) and who declares in his essence that Martha includes this slab of armor, and not that one.

That's how magic works.


To split a tank, would require the Force be high enough for the weight of the Tank... The mage that can do that, I'm not going to tell him no.
But otherwise if its a crafted object, apply the object resistance to the threshold as well. Just some ideas to prevent them from shaping vehicles.
DocTaotsu
But if we shape it just a little at a time....

And I can now offer a new new "Bonus Round" for any of my runners who decided to use their enemies as a fashionable hat.
HentaiZonga
QUOTE (DocTaotsu @ May 2 2008, 10:18 AM) *
But if we shape it just a little at a time....

And I can now offer a new new "Bonus Round" for any of my runners who decided to use their enemies as a fashionable hat.


...Or a particularly comfortable codpiece.
DocTaotsu
Or gloves...
Oh god, they'll all be dancing around in front of a mirror applying makeup poorly and stating repeatedly, "I'd fuck me..."

In other news. Small yapping dogs are suddenly a height item on the runner scene.
DocTaotsu
Or gloves...
Oh god, they'll all be dancing around in front of a mirror applying makeup poorly and stating repeatedly, "I'd fuck me..."

In other news. Small yapping dogs are suddenly a hot item on the runner scene.
Tarantula
QUOTE (Nightwalker450 @ May 2 2008, 09:00 AM) *
To split a tank, would require the Force be high enough for the weight of the Tank... The mage that can do that, I'm not going to tell him no.
But otherwise if its a crafted object, apply the object resistance to the threshold as well. Just some ideas to prevent them from shaping vehicles.


Weight of the tank? What? Shape [material] makes no mention of weights anywhere. It affects volumes.
vladski
QUOTE (HentaiZonga @ May 2 2008, 04:11 AM) *
Because the armor was designed for the tank by a metahuman with intent, and it was welded onto the tank by a metahuman with intent, and the tank is piloted by a metahuman with intent, who calls it 'my tank' (or even 'Martha', if he intuitively grasps the power of Names) and who declares in his essence that Martha includes this slab of armor, and not that one.

That's how magic works.


"This is my most favorite gun... I call her Vera"
Jayne, Our Mrs. Reynolds


Vlad
CanRay
QUOTE (vladski @ May 2 2008, 03:06 PM) *
"This is my most favorite gun... I call her Vera"
Jayne, Our Mrs. Reynolds

"See Vera? Dress yourself up, you get taken out somewhere fun."
- Jayne, Our Mrs. Reynolds, Firefly
Mordinvan
QUOTE (HentaiZonga @ May 2 2008, 02:11 AM) *
Because the armor was designed for the tank by a metahuman with intent, and it was welded onto the tank by a metahuman with intent, and the tank is piloted by a metahuman with intent, who calls it 'my tank' (or even 'Martha', if he intuitively grasps the power of Names) and who declares in his essence that Martha includes this slab of armor, and not that one.

That's how magic works.


So as long as someone intended the an object to be in a particular shape you can't use magic on it? I'd like you to show me that in the spell description? People at a steel mill 'intend' for an ingot to have a particular shape, and that intent is supposed to stop me from reshaping it? Please show me the RAW on that one.
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