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last_of_the_great_mikeys
Okay, so you spend 10 BP's on Genetic Heritage, which is basically 50,000 nuyen if you put it into money. For that you get one genetic modification for free... none of which that you can get to start are worth that much! And they're crappy! You can get better biowear for less! Oh, they try to make up for it by saying it costs 20% less to get more genetic work done. Big deal. How many of you get more than 1 or 2 genetic enhancements during game play, if ever? Each one would save you, maybe, the equivelant of 1 build point! Can you think of a "positive quality" that's more useless?
WearzManySkins
QUOTE (last_of_the_great_mikeys @ May 6 2008, 09:23 PM) *
Okay, so you spend 10 BP's on Genetic Heritage, which is basically 50,000 nuyen if you put it into money. For that you get one genetic modification for free... none of which that you can get to start are worth that much! And they're crappy! You can get better biowear for less! Oh, they try to make up for it by saying it costs 20% less to get more genetic work done. Big deal. How many of you get more than 1 or 2 genetic enhancements during game play, if ever? Each one would save you, maybe, the equivelant of 1 build point! Can you think of a "positive quality" that's more useless?

I disagree with your statements.

Alot of the characters built with the Heritage adavantage take Genetic Optimization for a starter, also transgenetic genetic enhancements are at 80% cost, like Enhanced Protein Exchange: Pensodyne Neo-EPO, Pensodyne Daredrenaline, Shiawase Vasacon, Genetype Hyper Glucagon and so on. Which can save you 30,000 nuyen in costs.

WMS
Glyph
It's not for everyone, but it's biggest advantage is that you get something expensive without taking a hit in your resources - you still have that full 250,000 to spend on other stuff. So you can get genetic optimization, to have the equivalent of the Exceptional Attribute quality for half price, or get Reakt, to get +2 to defense tests on top of any other bonuses. Overall, not a bad deal for 10 points. That's assuming you are spending your full 250,000 on other stuff. If not, might as well use resource BPs to get a genetic treatment instead.
Cthulhudreams
Some people interpret that rule as letting you start with a permanent infusion effect, which is dang sweet.

Edit: And genewipe is both useful and more than that right?
de4dmeta1
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ May 6 2008, 08:36 PM) *
Some people interpret that rule as letting you start with a permanent infusion effect, which is dang sweet.

Edit: And genewipe is both useful and more than that right?

Genewipe is above the normal availability limit, and insanely useful, but still under that 10bp worth of resources, if only slightly.
That brings up another advantage - since you don't purchase your one free genemod, it can be interpreted that it's not subject to normal availability rules. Some might even suggest that since you were born with it, it costs no Essence, though that is the sketchiest of the sketchy as far as arguments go.

So yes, while none of your options for our topical 10bp quality equate to 10bp in resources, there are certain advantages to not actually paying for the genengineering work.
Cthulhudreams
Aha, I knew you couldn't get it for some reason. It's very useful the more 'minority report esque' your game is.

My latest game had the perma infusions option available to players but no-one took it up.
Muspellsheimr
Advantages:
  • You can start with any genetic treatment except Adapsin - and only because that one specifically states it is not available at character creation.
  • You gain ~6 Build Points worth of starting equipment that is not limited to your 50 Build Point limit.
  • You gain a 20% monetary cost reduction on all future genetic enhancements, many of which are very useful.

Disadvantages:
  • You spend 10 Build Points from your 35 limit on qualities for 3 to 9 equivalent in resources.
  • The enhancement *does* still cost essence.


I am not personally impressed with the quality, and do not see any of my characters taking it. I do however, see some uses for it, and so can understand why it may be taken. By far not the worst quality *cough* Astral Sight \ Spell/Spirit Knack *cough*, but far from the top of the list.
Sombranox
Even though it was stated by one of the devs in the Augmentation Q&A thread that it _does_ cost essence, I house ruled that the it doesn't to make it more attractive for players. I even took it a step further to give the 20% discount not only to cost of future gene treatments, but to essence cost from those treatments, to encourage them to look at getting more.

I just love gene freaks though, so I'm biased towards making it nicer. Otherwise, yeah, it's only useful for going past 250K in resources.
ArkonC
QUOTE (last_of_the_great_mikeys @ May 7 2008, 03:23 AM) *
Okay, so you spend 10 BP's on Genetic Heritage, which is basically 50,000 nuyen if you put it into money. For that you get one genetic modification for free... none of which that you can get to start are worth that much! And they're crappy! You can get better biowear for less! Oh, they try to make up for it by saying it costs 20% less to get more genetic work done. Big deal. How many of you get more than 1 or 2 genetic enhancements during game play, if ever? Each one would save you, maybe, the equivelant of 1 build point! Can you think of a "positive quality" that's more useless?

What about Genecrafted?
After getting this one, you need to spend 25 BPs on genetech just to break even, and no catching up later since it only applies during chargen...
It's like a cheaper, actually useless version of Genetic Heritage...
HentaiZonga
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ May 6 2008, 09:52 PM) *
Advantages:
  • You can start with any genetic treatment except Adapsin - and only because that one specifically states it is not available at character creation.
  • You gain ~6 Build Points worth of starting equipment that is not limited to your 50 Build Point limit.
  • You gain a 20% monetary cost reduction on all future genetic enhancements, many of which are very useful.

Disadvantages:
  • You spend 10 Build Points from your 35 limit on qualities for 3 to 9 equivalent in resources.
  • The enhancement *does* still cost essence.


I am not personally impressed with the quality, and do not see any of my characters taking it. I do however, see some uses for it, and so can understand why it may be taken. By far not the worst quality *cough* Astral Sight \ Spell/Spirit Knack *cough*, but far from the top of the list.


*nod* I flat-out disallow the Astral Sight Quality. Anyone who takes it gets the Adept quality instead, with their 1 PP thrown into Astral Perception.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (HentaiZonga @ May 6 2008, 11:34 PM) *
*nod* I flat-out disallow the Astral Sight Quality. Anyone who takes it gets the Adept quality instead, with their 1 PP thrown into Astral Perception.

My solution, to actually make it useful, is Astral Sight gives the ability to perceive, but does not give a magic rating, and so cannot be lost when you loose essence.
WearzManySkins
QUOTE (ArkonC @ May 7 2008, 12:29 AM) *
What about Genecrafted?
After getting this one, you need to spend 25 BPs on genetech just to break even, and no catching up later since it only applies during chargen...
It's like a cheaper, actually useless version of Genetic Heritage...

I disagree with your statements.

If you are building a Genie, this advantage is most useful and can be teamed up with Genetic Heritage for some good cost reductions ie 40%.

WMS
adamu
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ May 7 2008, 12:50 AM) *
My solution, to actually make it useful, is Astral Sight gives the ability to perceive, but does not give a magic rating, and so cannot be lost when you loose essence.


Played around with that fix - particularly attractive because it means you don't necessarily lose the Astral Sight the moment you step into anywhere with a background count of 1 - which is most places runners go, if we use the Street Magic examples as our guide.
But then you've got an Astral Perceiver that, on the other hand, is totally immune to even a background count of 6. Cool if that's not a problem for you.

But basically, the Quality is completely and utterly broken, like most in Street Magic.
ElFenrir
Perhaps if Genetic Heritage cost 5 BP instead, it would work out more-OR it gave up to 50k in resources, keeping the 10 BP cost.

I mean, a positive quality should indeed be just that. Just like a negative one. IMO, a good rule of thumb I use to see if a + or - quality is broken(in a way that the positive one is mostly useless-the negative one too crippling) is just how many people never want to take it. Is an addiction bad? Sure, it can be, but it's workable. It's a good, balanced, negative quality, IMO. Uncouth? Ouch. Likewise, I see things often like First Impression and Guts; two nice positive ones that aren't too overboard at all. But yeah, Genetic Heritage? Astral Sight? Spell Knack? Don't see em so often.
Larme
I think Glpyh nailed it. The barrier for sammies is not points, it's the resources cap. Being able to take something like genetic optimization without knocking 1/5 off your total resources is precious for the tricked out samurai. Improving the quality would make it useful for other people as well. But it would make it a "duh" choice for sammies. Duh is bad guys nyahnyah.gif
Kyoto Kid
...Vi has it (works in her backstory as well). She has both the Genetic Optimisation (Logic) and PuSHeD trangenic, and is in the process of getting REAKT. Seems to work pretty well & takes way less essence than an Encephalon.
last_of_the_great_mikeys
The quality DOES NOT allow you to ignore availability. You can house rule it that it does, but officially, no. The note in adaption is a suggestion for houseruling type people.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (last_of_the_great_mikeys @ May 7 2008, 09:56 PM) *
The quality DOES NOT allow you to ignore availability. You can house rule it that it does, but officially, no. The note in adaption is a suggestion for houseruling type people.


QUOTE (Augmentation @ 20)
Genetic Heritage
Such an inheritance means the character can start play with one genetic modification for free

QUOTE (BBB @ 84)
Finally, no piece of gear purchased at character creation can have a rating higher than 6 or an Availability higher than 12

Yes, Genetic Heritage does indeed ignore the availability restrictions.
Larme
You're assuming that "purchase" and "for free" are mutually exclusive opposites. But what if "purchase" refers to build points? It could go both ways. But please don't insult our intelligence by pretending that the RAW solves this question for us all nice and neat.
last_of_the_great_mikeys
Until I see something official the availability rules cannot be gotten around without houseruling.
Muspellsheimr
BBB, page 84 - gear section. Availability restrictions are placed only on gear purchased with Nuyen. Anything that allows you to gain a piece of equipment outside of points spent in Resources is not restricted by availability, unless specifically stated otherwise.
WearzManySkins
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ May 8 2008, 04:30 PM) *
BBB, page 84 - gear section. Availability restrictions are placed only on gear purchased with Nuyen. Anything that allows you to gain a piece of equipment outside of points spent in Resources is not restricted by availability, unless specifically stated otherwise.

grinbig.gif Slam and Dunk there Muspellsheimr.

WMS
last_of_the_great_mikeys
I like you, Muspellsheimr. You made it easier for me to make my characters even more powerful! Woe to any shadowrun GM i ever get. biggrin.gif
WearzManySkins
QUOTE (Larme @ May 8 2008, 04:04 PM) *
You're assuming that "purchase" and "for free" are mutually exclusive opposites. But what if "purchase" refers to build points? It could go both ways. But please don't insult our intelligence by pretending that the RAW solves this question for us all nice and neat.

INSULT INSULT!!! grinbig.gif grinbig.gif grinbig.gif

WMS
WearzManySkins
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ May 8 2008, 04:30 PM) *
BBB, page 84 - gear section. Availability restrictions are placed only on gear purchased with Nuyen. Anything that allows you to gain a piece of equipment outside of points spent in Resources is not restricted by availability, unless specifically stated otherwise.

so with Genetic Heritage one could get the Transgenetic that reduces essence costs Adpsen(sp).

WMS

last_of_the_great_mikeys
QUOTE (WearzManySkins @ May 8 2008, 02:40 PM) *
so with Genetic Heritage one could get the Transgenetic that reduces essence costs Adpsen(sp).

WMS


They could except for that fact that the text after it specifically states that this augmentation should not be available to starting characters. Otherwise I'd take it every time, as well as biocompatibility and have all alphawear at the start...it'd be better than betawear for less!
Stahlseele
adapsin, and reading it like that, yes, one could indeed . . add in type o body and biocompatibility if it fits and voila, more stuff fits in that you can purchase and not the other way around O.o
and it's one of those cases of GM approval, because the rules don't explicitly forbid it, but they SUGGEST it be not allowed . . kinda like they suggest driving only 60 miles per hour on the freeway . .
samuelbeckett
Of course, there is a built in RAW restriction preventing you from taking Genetic Heritage: Adapsin and Type O and Biocompatibility all at the same time - the 35BP limit on qualities...
Stahlseele
hence the "if it fits"
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Augmentation 90)
Adapsin is new to the market in 2070 and should not be available at character creation.

A GM would need to wave both the availability & that restriction for a starting character to take it normally. Even if the description is waved, I would still rule against it being available with Genetic Heritage unless your character is one year old (or less). You might get away with being ~5 if you come from a corp background specializing in genetics.
Fortune
QUOTE (SR4 pg. 84)
Finally, no piece of gear purchased at character creation can have a rating higher than 6 or an Availability higher than 12.


I see no caveat about 'only Gear purchased with nuyen' falling under this restriction. Can you actually give me a quote wherein it states that there is such an exception? As was said earlier, the word 'purchased' can just as easily apply to BP as it does to nuyen.
Muspellsheimr
The only place availability restrictions on starting characters is addressed is under the Gear section of the BBB (page 84). This section refers solely to gear purchases with Nuyen, and indirectly, purchases with points spent in Resources. At no point does it give even the slightest reference to gear obtained (or 'purchased') in another way. As such, any restrictions on equipment gained outside of Resources points is a GM ruling, not a RAW restriction.
Kyoto Kid
QUOTE (WearzManySkins)
so with Genetic Heritage one could get the Transgenetic that reduces essence costs Adpsen(sp).

WMS

...or Genewipe (a covert agent who leaves no trace... scatter.gif )
cryptoknight
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ May 8 2008, 04:30 PM) *
BBB, page 84 - gear section. Availability restrictions are placed only on gear purchased with Nuyen. Anything that allows you to gain a piece of equipment outside of points spent in Resources is not restricted by availability, unless specifically stated otherwise.



That's not on my page 84 of the BBB. Here's the whole thing... I went back and looked for Errata to make sure
QUOTE
Gear
Gear provides your character with the starting cash to
gear up for street-level warfare. For every BP invested in Gear,
the character gets 5,000 nuyen to purchase weapons, armor,
cyberware, and other equipment, up to a maximum of 50 BP
or 250,000¥.
Players can use this money to purchase their characters’
starting gear, including cyberware, weapons, ammunition,
foci and magical items, commlinks, vehicles, and plenty of
other toys, described in the Street Gear section, p. 298. You
can purchase gear in any order you wish. Starting characters
must have the money to cover the full cost of an item.
All gear is subject to gamemaster approval—just because
you can purchase something doesn’t mean you should be allowed
to get it at the start of the game. Finally, no piece of gear
purchased at character creation can have a rating higher than
6 or an Availability higher than 12 (for more information, see
Availability & Buying Gear, p. 301).
Players need not spend starting resources down to the last
nuyen. For suggestions on what to do with leftover money, see
Finishing Touches, p. 86.
Larme
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ May 8 2008, 05:30 PM) *
BBB, page 84 - gear section. Availability restrictions are placed only on gear purchased with Nuyen. Anything that allows you to gain a piece of equipment outside of points spent in Resources is not restricted by availability, unless specifically stated otherwise.


No slam dunk, swing and a miss. It says "no piece of gear purchased at character creation can have a rating higher than 6 or an Availability higher than 12." Doesn't specify purchased with nuyen. It does say that in a paragraph that talks about using nuyen to purchase gear. But it's not explicit. It can go either way.

But regardless, this sorta torpedoes the whole thing: "All gear is subject to gamemaster approval—just because you can purchase something doesn’t mean you should be allowed to get it at the start of the game." So even if you try and slap your GM in the face with a loophole that lets you start with whatever genetech you want, he doesn't have to let you, per RAW.
WearzManySkins
Do not you just love the various Devs and freelancers giving us these opportunities to go to loggerheads over what is meant, said, implied, RAW etc. grinbig.gif


WMS
samuelbeckett
QUOTE (Larme @ May 8 2008, 11:27 PM) *
No slam dunk, swing and a miss. It says "no piece of gear purchased at character creation can have a rating higher than 6 or an Availability higher than 12." Doesn't specify purchased with nuyen. It does say that in a paragraph that talks about using nuyen to purchase gear. But it's not explicit. It can go either way.

But regardless, this sorta torpedoes the whole thing: "All gear is subject to gamemaster approval��"just because you can purchase something doesn’t mean you should be allowed to get it at the start of the game." So even if you try and slap your GM in the face with a loophole that lets you start with whatever genetech you want, he doesn't have to let you, per RAW.


Cmon, you can't cherry pick just that sentence and state it is a universal rule. The context of purchasing and gear is clear based on the preceding sentences (emphasis mine):

QUOTE (BBB p.84)
For every BP invested in Gear,
the character gets 5,000 nuyen to purchase weapons, armor,
cyberware, and other equipment
...
Players can use this money to purchase their characters’
starting gear
...
You can purchase gear in any order you wish
...
All gear is subject to gamemaster approval—just because
you can purchase something doesn’t mean you should be allowed
to get it at the start of the game
...
Finally, no piece of gear purchased at character creation can have a rating higher than
6 or an Availability higher than 12


I totally agree that the GM has final approval on any element of a character, including available gear - anyone you tries to abuse the spirit of the RAW to munch themselves a uber character deserves to be slapped down by the GM - conversely, any GM that excessively restricts character options probably doesn't deserve to have any players.

But the intent of the sentences above is clear - you can spend BP to get nuyen, which is used to purchase gear. This purchased gear is subject to GM approval, and cannot have a rating higher than 6 or Availability higher than 12. Nothing in those sentences indicates that the rating or Availability restrictions apply to anything obtained using BP that hasn't been turned into nuyen.
Larme
QUOTE (samuelbeckett @ May 8 2008, 09:46 PM) *
Cmon, you can't cherry pick just that sentence and state it is a universal rule. The context of purchasing and gear is clear based on the preceding sentences (emphasis mine):


I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying you're not so right that you have the only available interpretation. The thing is, the BBB doesn't provide you a way to get cyber without purchasing it. So I don't think the intent on page 84 can honestly be said to apply the limit only to things that are purchased. Now, that might be the intent in Augmentation with Genecrafted. But it doesn't say so. It fails to say the word "purchase," it fails to specify that the limits apply. But that might just be sloppy drafting. The point is we don't know, it can go either way. RAW is rarely, if ever, open to only one interpretation.

In the end though it doesn't matter. The GM is free to waive the availability requirements, restrict things that are usually available in chargen, so who really cares?
Mordinvan
I don't understand restricting the purchase of legal gear of any availablility at char gen, espeically to someone with the sinner quality who could simply order it online and have it delievered to their house. R stuff, sure, F stuff, definately, but legal stuff I can go on the internet and buy? No, not really. As for genetic inheritance, its not really the character thats getting it, its their parents, and they just passed it on. So its a matter of semantics, but if it legal to anyone who has the cash, I can't think of a store that won't sell it to you.
Larme
You can't just buy whatever you want on the internet. At least, not without some digging or perhaps paying a ridiculously inflated price, i.e. Nintendo Wii. Or a Toyota Prius. I'll agree that very few consumer goods today rise to the level of availability we see in Shadowrun, but it's easy to explain: high demand, low supply. The tech is new, the facilities to produce it are few and far between, everyone wants it, so you have to wait a long time or do a lot of looking before you find it. Yeah you can just go online and put down a pre-order, but what if they want you to wait a year before you get yours?

That is a good point about how genecrafting is inherited though. It makes sense if it does ignore avail requirements. I'd tend to keep them in place for balance purposes though. Especially for something powerful like Adapsin.
ornot
I'd also argue that a SINner buying legit stuff is tying the stuff they've bought to their SIN, whereas if you go blackmarket. The Man isn't going to know you've got it. This is only really relevant in some circumstances, but a runner is likely to be paranoid enough that they'll buy most of their stuff through unregistered channels.
Mordinvan
QUOTE (Larme @ May 8 2008, 09:44 PM) *
That is a good point about how genecrafting is inherited though. It makes sense if it does ignore avail requirements. I'd tend to keep them in place for balance purposes though. Especially for something powerful like Adapsin.

Which hasn't existed long enough to get a secondhand copy of it, so I'm fine with that.
Mordinvan
QUOTE (ornot @ May 9 2008, 03:01 AM) *
I'd also argue that a SINner buying legit stuff is tying the stuff they've bought to their SIN, whereas if you go blackmarket. The Man isn't going to know you've got it. This is only really relevant in some circumstances, but a runner is likely to be paranoid enough that they'll buy most of their stuff through unregistered channels.

And I would fully agree with you, unless the character bought a certified cred stick to buy it with.
Drogos
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ May 9 2008, 12:40 PM) *
And I would fully agree with you, unless the character bought a certified cred stick to buy it with.

Umm...it's a medical procedure and as such would be tied to your SIN's medical records, irregardless of how you paid for it above board.

I just had to throw that in. I also think that availability only restricts the purchases from nuyen else it would be part of the Gear section, not the Resources section of Character Creation. But I have no real problem with it going either way.
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