Wars in 2070+ will be fought totally differently than today. There will be less needs for aircraft carriers, because bombers and jets can start far far behind in safe distance, and still arrive in short time thanks to spirit-enhanced speed modifiers.

And even more highly televised! With time-outs for commercials!

Go Speed Racer! Go Speed Racer! Go Speed Racer Goooo!!!

I'm sorry, that has exactly what to do with the topic at hand again?

I'm thinking it was a 'time-out for a commercial', as mentioned in the preceding post.

"This Feed from Panzer 412 has been brought to you by the new Mitsuhama Motors Mach 5 Sports Car! Mach 5, the fastest production car currently on the market!"

Yeah, remember that the MiG-35 made a 6000 Kilometer journey in three hours, needing in-flight refueling once (remember that since this was a one way journey its range was effectively doubled so it only had to be refueled once while going at full speed most of the way). Using Movement from just a Force 4 spirit the MiG-35 would be able to make the 6000 kilometer journey in less than 45 minutes and have enough fuel left over to make the return trip on its own. At the point when ground based Russian planes can seriously threaten nuclear devastation in less than an hour to Sri Lanka and Ethiopia, the need for aircraft carriers of any kind is greatly attenuated.

-Frank

That's what you get when there's such things like the Movement Power. Speed Force-enhanced fighter jets will also have the advantage to being almost immune to anti-aerial measures, as by the time the enemy radar picked up the fighter/bomber, the airplane will by long have arrived at its target location and dropped its deadly payload, and then will be flying back to its homebase on the other side of the continent (or on another continent, if it needs to be).
When magic and technology combines in a way that makes many things simply obsolete...

Who says only the attacking/dropping aircraft can use the movement/speed enhancements, why not AA missiles and Defending aircraft. As for detection of incoming aircraft there is a very nice range of detection spells and design rules for same that could detect such incoming aircraft way before. Could be Ritual Detection spells so a group of mages can combine talents/magic ratings too.

WMS

Actually, when you're thinking about it, you wouldn't even need fighter/bombers anymore, because your massive destruction-bringing warhead could easily be started from very very far away in a safe underground base, and it would arrive very quickly at the target point. No need for transporting engines like airplanes, because thanks to the movement power, the missile could make it easily to the destination with low fuel.

As for using a tons of mages to casting ritual detection spells, well, it surely can and is done, but I doubt that it's so effective, because it's still the machine data that the Anti-Air missiles need to find and hit the incoming aircraft/missiles. And so far, you can't translate magical/mystical knowledge of an approaching flying object into useful computer data. Being on the defensive in 2070+ isn't going to be helpful at all.

You don't have to make it complicated with strange ritual castings and metatechniques, however. Just using the Speed Force is enough to radically change warfare in the near future-scenario that is the world of Shadowrun. No need for carriers, perhaps not even for airfighters/bombers anymore.
The game designers should seriously think about the implication of most simple magic tricks on the world of Shadowrun, be it civilian, or militarian.

In Shadowrun, offense trumps defense. Your only effective means to protect yourself in Shadowrun is to apply stealth and to never be discovered at all. Conventional defensive techniques are made obsolete.

A good reason to simply ban the movement power - or nerf it severly.

Yup, as movement is written Frank's version of the world is how it should be. However the rest of the design team seems to have no ability to think out the implications of the game world. For example, the whole opening of SM would need to be completely rewritten, as magic is constantly involved in people's lives. They obviously have no plans to go there. Hence the game world and the mechanics don't mesh.

As it's easier to rewrite a power then the entire world, nerf makes a whole lot of sense.

Granted, movement enhanced vehicles are often so fast that they are in and out before defenses could possibly be scrambled. Of course, Shadowrun also has space based weaponry, from which no amount of fighter scrambling is going to do you a damn bit of good.

It's over 60 years in the future, and lots of military techniques are obsolete. To put things in perspective, the game is set in 2071. It is currently 2008. 63 years ago from now it was May of 1945. Can you think of a major military advance/event that came between then and now that changed military strategy almost beyond recognition? Perhaps 3 months after then?

-Frank

Yea, let's go back to the SR3 version because that was so much less broken. Oh wait.

For my groups I am fine with movement as it is. It allows me to have HTRTs with a low response time, fast airships and my players won't cry because I nerfed something for reasons they don't come in contact with anyway.

I do not use large military assets ie carriers et al, in any of my games. Due in part the SR iterations of rules do not scale up well or integrate well with small arms fire that most shadowrunners use. Does that mean it could not be done, *shrugs* yes but to me it would not be worth the gain for all that effort.

WMS

Yeah, for some reason, I can't see a Colt L36 doing much to an Aircraft Carrier, small or large.

What self respectin' 'Runner uses an L36 for more than a can opener? A self-respectin' runner uses a Predator or Ingram Smartgun...with APDS. Not that it will have any more impact on an aircraft carrier, but we are talking about respect here. Next, you'll be havin' 'em dress up in some frilly corp suit instead of their kevlar t-shirt with "Frag 'Em all and Let God Sort 'Em Out" stenciled on the front and a genuine imatation fake naugahyde armored longcoat.

Vlad

Well, one of my characters has one for his Housecoat while sipping at his 12-year old Irish Whiskey.

IRISH Whiskey, not Tir na nOg!

EU Regulations, you can't call anything Irish Whiskey any more. Same reason you can't call things Port unless it's made in Portugal or Champagne unless it's made in France.

You'd have to have a label that said:

IRISH styleWHISKEY

Otherwise the corporate court would shut you down.

-Frank

That's some seriously old drek. Not like that good, fresh synthahol most of my runner's partake. You sure that guy ain't a dandyline eater?

And now, I shall refrain from anymore off-topic chit-chat. Sorry, fellow DS'ers. Back to your regularly scheduled big boat toys.

Vlad

Air superiority alone doesn't win a war. It isn't enough to crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and here the lamentations of the women. You actually have to control the land afterwards. You can't occupy from across an ocean. It isn't possible to summon enough spirits to make that viable. You need ground troops and supporting those troops means having aircraft that are capable of killing a specific target with extreme precision at a moment's notice and that can safely extract them at a moment's notice. This means near constant patrols by armed mini-blimps and rotodrones in addition to choppers and thunderbirds based very in or near the battlefield.

Yes, that's known. But we're discussing the necessity of carriers in Shadowrun, what with all that jazz that magic brings with it, especially the not really thought out spirit power Movement.

Actually haven't we all agreed that there are probably like 3 super carriers left in 2070 and there aren't really any plans to build more?


i was just taking offense at the idea that super carrier were obsolete as of this morning.

You're very well allowed to take offense at it. Still, with the uber-mighty Movement Power, there really wouldn't be need for any carrier, safe for ones that were built dozens of years ago, IF the movement power is to be taken at face falue. It's not like magical effects and how they work haven't been retconned several times in Shadowrun, however.
It's only a matter of time till SR 5 will come out, with new rules how some magical effects work. Perhaps by then, Movement will have been nerfed to only work for like force=seconds or so once per day, or something like that. Then, carriers might once again be justified for the setting of Shadowrun.

I meant obsolete as of this morning 12MAY08

Ahh, real life... The very bane of Shadowrun.

There were 6 or so run by the IJN in 2065...

A world with movement actually has a place for Super Carriers, just not really a place for strategic bombers on carriers. Remember that spirit movement allows you to get a limited number of "things" across the world in an unthinkably short period of time for an absurdly small amount of fuel. This means that if you want to get a large number of "things" across the world (be they troops, gunboats, rotor drones, or designer shoes) it behooves you to take those things and load them onto a bigger thing and ship that.

Yeah, if the empire of Nippon wants to bomb your munitions factory or your palace they are not going to send a carrier, super or otherwise. They are either going to send a bomber on a death run from Okinawa at something around Mach 12 or they are going to position a satellite over you and start dropping tungsten rods from space right after they supercharge the ionosphere over your country (forcing you to communicate with your troops via telegraph). In either case the fist from the sky is going to come so ridiculously fast that if you didn't already have the ship from Defender in the air at the time there is absolutely nothing you can do except swear vengeance. But if they want to conquer your country they could very plausibly send in a carrier. And that carrier will carry smaller boats.

See any sufficiently large and expensive target is worth a nuclear weapon to destroy, and if someone deploys a nuke on your anything it's a fair assumption that whatever that thing was no longer exists. So actual battles are going to be conducted by things small enough that their loss can be afforded, because the offense/defense discrepancy being what it is we know that some equipment is going to be lost. But motor boats, ATVs, and gun drones - the things that battles will preferentially be fought with - simply lack the speed and the range to project force any real distance. So people who want to get to the battles with the kinds of expendable forces required to fight in them in the kinds of time frames that the modern world requires are going to want to load their stuff onto a carrier and speed up the carrier.

So if, for example, you want to take a harbor, what you will want to do is this: Have your carrier come into the bay at hyper speed (and I seriously mean at over 300 knots). Then disgorge a fighting force of tiny speed boats packing artillery and rotor drones, and then have your carrier leave. Have the battle proceed apace in enemy territory while all of your equipment is moving at full speed with big guns and is completely expendable nonetheless. Sink all their stuff, blow up the enemy response vessels while they are still at dock, and only return with your carrier when the town is surrendered. You'll probably want to do something similar involving high speed tracked vehicles in order to fight for land.

Star Destroyers and Tie Fighters. Only it's on land, sea, and air instead of space. But the concept is the same. You have a limited number of hyperdrives and weaponry is so ridiculously dominant over armor that there's no real desire to conduct actual battles with anything other than a swarm of 1-man and unmanned craft. So you put your swarm onto a carrier and put the hyperdrive on that. Remember the Somali boat carrying pirate ship? That's the future of warfare in 2071.

Many people (authors included) seem to think that just because Shadowrun mostly considers punks doing petty larceny with the backdrop of a seedy metropolis that Shadowrun isn't really a science fiction setting. It most definitely is a science fiction setting. There are colonies on Luna and Mars, there are frickin asteroid miners for goodness sakes. The military battlefield is as unrecognizable to modern military theorists as the blighted landscape of WWI trenches would have been to a Crimean War Ottoman Imperial General. The fact is that any technology that is sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic. In Shadowrun that sufficiently advanced technology happens to actually be called "magic." But its effect on the setting is no different from any similarly effective technological wonder that you put into Traveler or Transhuman Space.

-Frank

I tend to agree with Frank, with the multiplication of the nuke capability in the Shadowrun universe, big fat, slow moving (a CVBG is a slow moving target) , targets are a no no.

From my 2006 edition of the bible on navies ( Namely the French edition of Combat Fleet of the World ) :

USA has 12 carriers... 10 of them CVNs ( each at least 85Kt in mass ) - 10 CVN, 2 CV -
Russia has 1 carrier ( 55Kt ) - 1 CV -
UK had 3 carriers ( around 18Kt each, and I think they only have 2 left now. ) - 3 CVS -
France has 1 carrier ( 37Kt ) - 1 CVN -
India has 1 carrier ( 23 Kt... and IIRC there's a second one on it's way... ) - 1/2 CVS -
Italy has 1 ship that qualify barely as a carrier ( Guiseppe Garibaldi ) - 1 CVS -
Brasil has 1 carrier ( Former French carrier, 27Kt ) - 1 CV -

It is interesting to note that the 2 CVs in the US Navy are kept mainly because of the Okinawa base. It seems Japan -or the Japanese population- is not willing to see a CVN based there.
It is also interesting to note that except Adm Kutznetzov all the other Carriers are at least half the mass of the US CVNs, some are even puny compared to the US CVNs. I saw a picture once of 3 CVS going side by side... a US one, a French one and a UK one... the French one was looking small against the US... The English one was looking... well tiny is not small enough...

To strenghten the point, as seen in the last few operations ( some are going to say wars ) ground control is important. You can't win if you do not control the ground. That means that Carriers, that are pure air projection systems are doomed one way or another. You will be able to pound back into stone age a country, but you then won't be able to control said country.
Which is why there's the LCS. This is purely an amphibious assault support ship, it can't survive alone, it is of no use in deep sea, but against a beach ( or a naval base ) it will be a tremendous asset, furthermore it's an asset that can be 'wasted' while CVNs are just too expensive to be put off a coast where they might be hit by a lucky missile. ( I don't count the CVNs ( and the CVBG ) near zero survivability if people start throwing ICBMs at them.... the only ships that can survive that kind of warfare are either museums, rotting somewhere before scrapping or wrecks )

And when it comes to supporting guys on the ground, while I'm sure they're happy to see anything, from my understanding, they'd prefer to see an A-10 Warthog, or maybe a AC-130U Spooky.

But I'm a safe civilian sitting here in my basement, so what do I know of anything? Other than my heart and prayers goes out to the men and women out there!

I have no idea what I'm talking about with this subject, however I sent the article to my dad who shared it with my uncle, who actually is a military contractor. He said the following:

INDEPENDENCE is one of two lead ships of the Littoral Combat Ship (LCS).
The other one is FREEDOM. They are built by different defense
contractors and are completely different designs.

They are not aircraft carriers. They are destroyer/frigate type ships.
They are not "super" by any stretch of the imagination.

The LCS is supposed to be a cheap, disposable ship with a minimum crew
size. The thought was that it would be stupid to risk a $700M ARLEIGH
BURKE class Aegis destroyer in the Littoral (which is near shore, in
shallow water, at risk of mines, torpedoes from non-nuclear submarines,
shore-launched missiles, small aircraft, etc etc) so build a $250M
smaller ship with 1/3 the crew and send it in close.

Unfortunately, the Navy's acquisition strategy is insane, so we are
buying two completely different classes of ships, and stationing both
types on each coast (doubling the logistics train). Because of
changing and challenging requirements (including that 60kt speed, which
is FAST), the price per ship is actually now around $800M - the price of
an ARLEIGH BURKE! And that price is just for the Sea Frame, which is
the hull and bare bones common systems (like navigation and engines).
Before the LCS can actually do anything, it will have 1-2 Mission
Modules added (like ASW, AAW, etc). Which brings the price of a
'warfare capable' LCS to more than a BURKE.

I am astounded that these ships have not been cancelled. As a taxpayer,
I am appalled. As a contractor, I am encouraged.



Just thought that might help those of us who got lost around page 2.

This has changed. The CVs have all been decommissioned / are being decommissioned. The USS George Washington recently left Norfolk VA to perform a Change of Homeport to Okinawa. My next door neighbor's husband is getting ready to move to Japan to be near her husband for the remainder of his time on the GW.

*waves arms wildly*

I can assure you all that there are absolutely no carriers of any flavor in Okinawa. I'm actually fairly certain we don't have a permenant naval presence here at all (save for the Seabees and wayward Corpsmen).

Seriously, I have no idea where you'd put her wing or the rest of her battle group.

CVN 73 is homeported to Yokosuka Naval Base, Yokosuka, Japan. About an hour train ride outside of Tokyo (lucky bastards). It also got here last months which is kinda cool.

Unless things have drastically changed at Yokusuka, no they are not the lucky bastards, when I was in the lucky bastards were stationed in the PI. I left base twice in Yokusuka, the prices by themselves made it most un lucky, and then there are the other factors too.

WMS

Well I hear the liberty policy is a bit draconian but you're talking to a guy who has to pay at least 500 dollars to go anywhere that can't be reached in an hour by car. Plus mainlanders hate us marginally less than Okinawans which is a plus.

Let us not speak of the PI, Manila is an awful and dirty city full of naked children and deep fried food that gave me the runs. Yes I'm biased, but the manning the rails for 2 hours and staring at everything but a body bobbing around in their hazy and tepid bay didn't exactly warm me up to the situation. The other islands are nice but occassionally full of angry people who put IED's in soy sauce containers. Thankfully they appear to be more interested in killing each other than us but still.
Well shit, now I'm never going to make chief.

LOL Phrack Manila, I am talking about Subic Bay and Clark AFB. You missed the real Huk activity too, screw IED's they would just crave you up for pocket change.

WMS

I'm fairly certain they did the machete chopping thing there too, it was just that IED's were in vogue that season and soy sauce containers in an asian country are pretty uhm... abundant.

Subic Bay is supposed to be really nice and duuhhh AFB? Bellow AFB in Hawaii is technically a military base.

Lucky Air Force punks.

Damn got the AFB name wrong. Clark the AFB that had to have Mass Transit to get from one side to the other.

No in Olangopo, PI, the Mayor had a solution for Huks and major crime. Philippine Constabulary(PC) Assassins/Hit Squads dealt with any and all Crimes against US Military Personnel. The PC's were most effective in dishing it out also, even more so than the Huks and other criminals. Since the PC's made life to difficult for the Huks and most criminals they went else where quickly or were found drifting down the Olangopo River, not alive. The worst thing that happened to me was I was pick pocketed by kid street gang, but since my Pesos were multiple locations they got little.

While I was on Slammer Duty, a Marine Staff Sergeant stationed there, introduced me to the Number Two Hit Man in Olangopo, the hit man wore a PC set of cammys. Very interesting person, very quiet but his eyes were everywhere. I felt like a mouse in the presence of a Monkey Eagle.

When I was there the official exchange rate was 25 Pesos to 1 US Dollar, a San Miguel Beer in a Top Dollar Main Street Bar cost you 4-6 Pesos. Do the math from there. For Twenty US Dollars a US Serviceman could get plastered drunk, eat several times, have fun with the ladies and have cab fare back to base. The unofficial exchange rate involved $100 bills and the right connections, it was better than 25 to 1.

Servicemen stationed there who lived off base, were able to pocket most of the BAQ they were given to live off base, that left them most of their meager pay to do with what they wanted to. That meager pay allowed even a E-2 to live real well.

Boy I still miss the Cerveza Negra and Red Horse Extra Strong Beer.

But that is gone now, hopefully for the better of the PI.

WMS
1,001+ Missions Across the Olangopo River Bridge.

My stories from the Philippines are considerably less sanguine.

For example, the base commander and local priest turned up at my mom's door once, with a telegram reporting my dad's death. This had been preceded a few minutes before by a telegram from my dad, saying that he was still alive, but that his unit had been wiped out, so he might get reported as dead.

The story apparently was that he was in the south somewhere, when his unit came across a traffic accident or something like that. Being the junior officer, he was apparently dropped of to direct traffic, offer aid and assistance, and so on. The rest of the unit drove into an ambush a few hours later and was wiped out.

It's been nigh on 20 years since I've heard that story, so I might not be getting the details exactly right.

Well, Metro Manila has other interesting places to visit.

Those aren't Huks, those are merely bandits, the Huks would carve you up for not being brown.

Subic is now a major resort area.

Cerveza Negra is still good, I drink it for breakfast with raw eggs. Red Horse is horse piss. Oh, the exchange rate? Its now officially at 42 to 1, so the greenback is good to earn. Booze has gone up to about 20 pesos per bottle, but then again, pretty ladies go for about 2K (US$ 50), party packages of booze, food, and chicks in plural can be easily had for US$300. I like it.

So he was Mark Twain'ed?