Been thinking of a reasonable points cost for being a Ghoul and came up with the following for the non-feral version

GHOULS

Astral Sight -5
Dual Nature +10
Burnout +30 (Lower Essence and craving for metahuman flesh)
Poor Perception (Sight) +10 (Ranged attacks and Perception -1D6)
Hidden Past / Dark Secret (Ghoul) +5
Orc Race -20 (Resonable Attributes) Move one point of BOD to REA, no low light vision
Body Odor +10 (All that raw meat makes you stink a little)

Ghoul Total: +40BP
Bod+2
Str+2
Rea+1
Cha-1
Log-1

Functional?

This would be in addition to regular race cost so an Elf would cost +10 points instead of -30.

Since when are you awarded points for racial induced flaws?

I would recommend to use the rules Frank tossed together here and here. They make sense and treat PC Ghouls not diffrently from NPC Ghouls, which is always a good thing.

Great, now I have the urge to bite someone.

Great, now I want to run a campaign based on this.

Well, for one a Ghoul is a person stricken by a horrible disease that makes them a cannibalistic monster and a target for bounty hunters and the law not to mention exterminators at some points.

Having a cost on something that is clearly a negative thing to play is rather dumb. And putting it as a quality is just as dumb as it is a modification on the characters race, the qualities listed are just a representation of the abilities the race has.

Clarification: Its not a GOOD thing to play a Ghoul so it should rather give points instead of taking them as the negative aspects are so much greater than the positive.

@The Jopp: I had the same question when I first started here.



While I was a little hesitant to go with these at first (I had the old SR Companion stuck in my head), Frank's rules are actually a fair way to go about it.

When you get right down to it, Ghouls are kinda screwed - no reason to further screw them by giving them gimp stats.

-paws

I'd guess the rules for these will be released in the runner companion, if you can wait that long.

As a GM I'm quite happy with my all human (and only one magically active) PCs.

Well, except you get 40 free bp that doesnt fall in the quality category.. now that would make EVERY rollplayer wanna play a ghoul

To my knowledge there is no mechanic where you buy a race, and then that forces you to seperately buy qualities with their own points cost. For instance, look at trolls - they have thermovision and bone deposits, but those are not qualities. I would say instead of mangling the metatype mechanic by putting it in a blender with the qualities mechanic, make all those aspects of Ghoul figure into the race selection, and recalculate the points accordingly. SR4 is all about using unified mechanics. I know it's tempting to be really sloppy and jumble them all together without thinking about it, the way SR3 used to do, but when writing stuff for SR4 it's important to use an SR4 mindset and keep up the streamlined feel of the system.

Or... Maybe that's what you did, but you showed your work on how much you think each quality should cost to arrive at a total +40 BP for the ghoul? Idk, w/e

You really have to look at the template as a whole, to apply the point value.

+2 BOD, +2 STR, +2 REA
Dual Natured - Can combat astral as well as mundane and view both without penalty, Assensing is available

At the cost of:
Lower Essense: Less cyberware, less magic
Body Odor: Is this really that much of a drawback to give 10 points?
-1 CHA, -1 LOG
The Dark Secret is handled by giving the person a point (or more) of Notoriety for being a ghoul

Basically you have to look at the person who takes a Ghoul, isn't going to be taking it for the negatives, they're taking it for the bonuses.
Imagine Troll Ghoul... = Free for Society hates me a little more then other Trolls...

So you should probably have a cost on it, not a bonus. I'd think along the lines of 20 pts, so a troll Ghoul would be 60 pts. Human Ghoul 20 pts.

having a ghoul around means never having to worry about what to do with dead bodies again . .
only thing you have to worry about is him getting an upset stomach due to cyber/bio/nanon-ware

That's why you make sure s/he takes Artisan: Chef (Raw Foods) 1(+2) and Cybertechnology 1!

I imagine most bioware would taste odd (maybe like the metallic taste you sometimes get with canned tuna) to a ghoul.

-paws

You don't need the Cybertechnology skill to filet a Street Sam.

yeah, tuna is a good comparsion . . the smell of tuna pizza alone makes me wanna barf on a regular schedule x.x

Yeah, but you'd know what parts of the Street Sam to avoid, kinda like sushi chefs who prepare puffer fish.



I've smelled pizza with anchovies (damn my old boss and his evil ways ), but never tuna. Thinking about it... that sounds really terrible.

-paws

Cyberware is easy to recognize. Don't eat the bone that looks like a crowbar, don't eat stuff that has wires and connectors and whatnot, etc.
Bioware can be eaten, it's just tissue after all.

So, what do you need medical training for again?

Nanites.

Also, I'm running with the idea here that cyberware, even if its localized, with flavor the meat in a less than savory way. Again, the metallic tasting tuna example. You want to cut as close to the 'ware as possible without, but not so close as to taint the flavor.

At least we agree about teh Artisan: Chef (Raw Foods) skill though, right?

My commentary is as follows:
Astral Sight: Generally it's my opinion to leave this as a null value, since it's so hard to calculate when it's a liability and when it's a benefit. You don't pay any points for it in my world, but you don't get any either. And having "dual natured" is moot, since if you're dual natured you automatically have astral sight. I don't think there's any option NOT to.
Burnout: This seems to give you too many points, and is different things rolled together. I'd make it "Low Essence, +10bp" and "Dietary Requirement, Metahuman flesh +10bp" or something. Having to eat people is pretty severe, but not so much if you look at prior editions' rules on how much you had to eat. It wasn't all that much, in all honesty.
Poor Perception: This needs to be more severe and give you more points, because most ghouls are straight up blind in the physical plane. Also, this is somewhat abrogated by the fact that they have supernaturally acute hearing and smell - which your writeup does not give them.
Body Odor: Not part of being a ghoul. The fact that most ghouls smell isn't racial, it's due to where they live. Ghouls that don't eat rotting meat and who bathe regularly shouldn't terribly different than anyone else.
Also, I believe they should have the sensitive system flaw as standard.

...great, now I have a reason to get my Enfield GL-67 converted to burst fire.

on a second note how to handle the Krieger strain aquired in game?

Get to your Street Doc and get the treatment that prevents you from turning into a Ghoul.

Actually, I'm pretty sure it's been stated in multiple past official ghoul descriptions that the smell is racial.

Really? Where?

Cuz seriously, my group's been trying to find out if that's a feature of ghouldom or a feature of "eating rotting bodies" for a while now. We've never been able to find a concrete reference for it, so our solution was that ghouls smell normal as long as they get their daily recommended human intake, and if they're deficient on eating people, they start to smell. Just because it seemed interesting.

...hmm a ghoul with Clean Metabolism bioware.

I'm sure the odor was explained with their diet, but since their diet is a result of being a ghoul, you could say beeing a ghoul makes you smell bad.

Luckily, the SR4 entry about Ghouls does not mention anything about that, so it is safe to assume the odor is based on their diet and/or the lack of sanitation, not on beeing a Ghoul, until some new source claims otherwise. If the Ghoul eats his meat fresh, he might not stink so bad, and if he takes a bath now and then it should help, too.

That's sorta what I always figured, personally. Like,w hy would a ghoul smell terrible because he eats humans? Do people smell terrible if they eat cows?
I don't think *I* do...

People don't even smell terrible if they eat other people.

And if there is a treatment that you can get off the street, why the hell is it ghouls around in the first place?

Well, you'd be used to the smell, I mean, you hang out with you all the damn time...

If a ghoul eats his meat fresh then he'll be puking his guts out for several days, which I imagine would result in a substantially worse smell. Ghouls are exclusively carrion-eaters. They can't stomach fresh meat any more than you or I could hold down some maggoty flesh that's been ripened in the sun for a week.

Odor for a ghoul is the same as you would define odor for a human (in real life).

Odor falls under two conditions:
1 - Diet: If the ghoul eats raw meat then he will not smell, but if he was to eat rotten meat then he would have a tendency to smell.
2 - Lifestyle: If the ghoul bathes regularly then he will not smell, but if he does not bathe at all then he will.

Think about someone who eats garlic (I love garlic), works outside a lot, does not bathe, and does not wash their clothes. This person would really start to stink and would also have a tinge of garlic smell, but if they did bathe, wash their clothes, and still ate a lot of garlic they would only have a small smell of garlic about them, if even that, and people would be able to stand by them and never know this person worked outside all day long (except for the work clothes and the really dark tan ).

Honestly I don't know why anyone would want to make a ghoul anyway (course I can not see why anyone would want to make a troll or an ork either. ).

Valid point.

Where's it say that? And is that new? Because I totally don't remember that when I made my ghoul... It's possible I missed it, but I recall the dietary requirement just being "You have to eat X pounds of metahuman flesh per week, where X is a percentage of your body weight."

brushing his teeth will be mucho importante . . and using mouth wash and the like . . chewing bubble gum and kicking ass is optional *g*

Carnivore humans do smell different. It's one of the things that Japanese with a low protein diet found distasteful about the 'unclean gaijin'.

LOL!!! Very true, Very true!!!

Ghouls come in all shapes and sizes. Since it's not just humans, but all others turn into ghouls then it becomes a little too hard to make them a "PC" class.

That and they are modern day lepers... well you know if lepers were actually generally killed on sight as opposed to shipped off to colonies. Then again if anyone has seen Shawn of the Dead? If so then are ghouls used in game shows and made to entertain the rest of humanity? Maybe just drop off tons of ghouls on an island and the last one left alive is shot in the head? They could call it Ghoul island, and then after the show is over just call it island.

Krieger Strain of HMHVV
Disease:
Vector: Injection, Speed: 1 Day (3), Power: 3, Nature: Viral
Effects: Transformation into a ghoul.

B +4
A -
R +2
S +3
C -2
I +1
L -1
W +2
EDG -
ESS -1
M 1
Init -

Note that normal racial maximums still apply and that these are treated as stat augmentations, subject to normal rules.

Powers:
Dual Natured, Enhanced Senses (Hearing, Smell), Natural Weapon (Claws: S/2 + 1),

Ghouls get the following Negative Qualities and gain no BPs for them (these do not count against the 35 BP limit):
Allergy (Sunlight, Mild), Dark Secret (Ghoul), Dietary Requirement (Metahuman Flesh), Reduced Senses (Blind).


____________________________________________
Also, just a note that the ghoul rules posted in this thread aren't actually Frank's, they're mine. Frank and HappyDaze helped me form them in that second thread...

That has been my objection to the "You can catch ghoulishness" plotline since 1997. It doesn't do its intended job of making ghouls scarier, because madical science is advanced enough that if you don't want to turn into a ghoul you just don't.

Transforming into an inhuman corpse eating monster is scary if it's something that happens for no reason and cannot be prevented. But if it's a physical virus that you can get a frickin shot for, it's not scary.

-Frank

Aye especially as we are struggling with several ordinary viruses today, hell imagine what a awakened virus could do

Some of them were tossed around as possible inclusions for Augmentation, but there really wasn't space for them.

-Frank

I wonder if HIV/Aids becoming awakened would turn you into some kind of sex crazed zombie monster... maybe like a Reaver in Firefly.

Anyways Ghouls are ugly, scary, and hated. They are pretty interesting fluff wise, but if you have them as a PC they have to always be out of sight so as a GM your story can't really take place in a packed metropolitan city (if a ghoul walks into a stuffer shack or any other corp facility they will be marked KOS,) they probably wont get along with the rest of the party (or shouldn't considering what they are,) most people would either hate ghouls with a passion or want to be as far away from them as meta-humanly possible, they can't really have any cyberware or bioware put into them (I doubt there has been any tech created for them to be able to use or even have a cyber doc touch you,) they can't use any visual aid technology, and I think that is kind of scraping the surface.