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Deimos Masque
In general, what sort of payouts should a slightly better than beginning Shadowrun team expect for the various types of runs they perform at an equal level to their skill?

I've been having real trouble find a good starting number to work from and I fear giving my players too much nuyen.gif early on in the game (we are only 7 game sessions in)
imperialus
this comes up every couple weeks. Might want to try the search function for 'payment'. I'll copy paste an old post of mine that details my thoughts

QUOTE
I think the best rule of thumb (that's come up before) for starting runners at least is to give them enough money per month that it's not worth it for them to steal a Ford Americar/Murcury Comet once a week and sell it on the black market.

If you want an actual number I'd say for a starting team 5-6K per month each. Each time the groups street cred goes up by one double the amount they make.

In planning out a teams advancement here is the formula I would use.

CODE
Street Cred      Pay/month      Karma/Month
                   (x1000)
    0                 5-6            10
    1                10-12           20
    2                20-24           25
    3                40-48           30
    4                80-96           35
    5               160-192          40
    6               320-384          45


How long a team stays at a given street cred "level" is up to you. Street cred of 6 really only belongs to the gods of the shadow scene. These are the folks that Harlaquin has on speed dial when he needs to get some shit done. They're on a first name basis with Fastjack and Damian Knight owes them "favors". I can't ever see a campaign of mine reaching that level but it does allow for it.

Most importantly regardless of what "level" you base the campaign at this seems to keep the sams and riggers power level roughly consistent with adepts mages and other karma hogs. If you see one group pulling ahead of the other it is fairly easy to correct it within the framework by offering more nuyen.gif and less Karma or the other way around. It's a guide not hard and fast rules but I've found it useful.


QUOTE
well basically the difference is that street cred is something that I award to players. It works somewhat like edge but refreshes far more rarely. In line with the BBB it consists of their "rep" within the shadow scene and underworld in general. For example someone with a street cred of zero but with a run or two under their belt is still considered a greenhorn by just about everyone. Really only their contacts even know who they are.

Street cred is awarded based on performance, or at least perceived performance by a team. Everyone on the team has the same street cred and it can go up or down (even into negative numbers) based on how their runs go.

the scale basically looks like this

-3 Pariah. You've committed a screw up that is truly aw inspiring. People know you, but they also know that powerful people will pay good cash for your head on a plate. Leaving the country seems like a good idea.
-2 Write-Off. You've screwed up big time. Even your fixer is unlikely to return your calls. People with means to do so want you dead. Chances are skipping town is your best bet
-1 Fuckup. Johnsons are reluctant to work with you, jobs are going to suck and generally be few and far between. Damage control is an order.
0 No rep, You're either a relative unknown just starting out or you've done something to tick some people off. Nothing that can't be fixed but you'd probably want to get on that before things get worse.
1 Streetsmart. Johnson’s and fixers are starting to take notice. You've at least proved that you won't completely fuck up jobs.
2 ShadowPunk. It's starting to look like there is something to you. You're a regular team in your fixers stable and he knows you can be trusted to be discreet and efficient. The smaller streetgangs know that it's not worth their time or broken bones to screw with you.
3 ShadowRunner. You’re a pro. The jobs come fast and furious and you likely spend most of your time working for favorite Johnson’s. You’re pretty well known locally and for the most part well liked.
4 Veteran. By now the Johnson’s are competing with each other to hire you. You can’t exactly write your own paycheque but you’re defiantly moving into a sellers market. Everyone but the major crime syndicates knows you’re not someone to be trifled with. You probably have dirt on or favors owed from some fairly important figures though not likely anyone with much influence beyond the metroplex area.
5 Prime Runner. You’re top of the heap now. Probably one of the best runners in Seattle. Some people are even starting to wonder why you haven’t retired. Yakuza Oyuban and Mafia dons (not to mention some important corporate figures) are in your pocket.
6 ShadowGod. Fastjack, Hatchetman, Captain Chaos, You. Pretty much that simple.

Now as for how it works mechanically things are a bit fuzzier. First of all you can at any time add your street cred to provide a bonus to a die roll just like edge. It only applies to social tests with appropriate underworld figures. You can also lower the groups street cred permanently (or at least until you earn it back) to pull in favors with underworld figures and do stuff like get something that is otherwise beyond your reach, make some evidence or witnesses “disappear?, ect. What exactly you can get from this depends on your street cred level. With a street cred of two you might be able to get a tricked out van with armour, a turbocharged engine ect. A street cred of five might net you a T-bird. Pulling in these favors lowers your rep though, if it doesn’t happen often your cred usually bounces right back, but if you’re calling in favors left right and center people start to look at you as a mooch.

It’s more art than science but it works for me.
ArkonC
You're very vague so it is hard to give you any answer...
Here is a thread about payment, I'm sure if you use the search function, you can find more...
Deimos Masque
Funny thing is I used the search function on several other things, but for some reason didn't think to look up payment.

Silly me.

Thanks for the replies though!
JeffSz
problem with that explanation of Street Cred is that street cred is already Karma / 10 (rounded up)
you've replaced that with rewarded points at your table?
imperialus
QUOTE (JeffSz @ May 20 2008, 09:15 PM) *
problem with that explanation of Street Cred is that street cred is already Karma / 10 (rounded up)
you've replaced that with rewarded points at your table?


Yeah, that's the downside with me quoting bits and pieces of an old thread without the context. I did mention I use street cred somewhat differently. Really though, it's just a name. You could call it 'runner points' or GM beanies or whatever and keep streetcred intact.
Emperor Tippy
It really depends on how you see Shadowrun and how your players see it.

Let's face it, 400 BP is enough that with almost any build your character could walk in the front door at any megacorp and have a job, complete with genetic reprinting and a legit SIN matched to the new DNA, that pays 120K (a high lifestyle)+ per year. For mages and hackers it's even more reasonable. So if the character can't make at least that much risking their lives and freedom then it really stretches believability that they would run (barring some fairly specific backstories). A runner team can easily make 5-10K per person per month just jacking cars, and that is a lot safer than your average run.

If the characters are smart they will be getting a new Fake SIN for every run, stay in a safe house every night when on said run, dump any weapon used or ammo bought at the same time, rent a vehicle, etc. Since most anything less than a rating 6 SIN is practically worthless let's go with one of those. SIN, Safe house, and rented car comes to 10K in expenses for the first week; with 4K a week after that.

That generally holds true on every run that involves the in person commission of any crime (pure matrix runs are another story). So after expenses the character should be looking at how much his life and freedom is worth, and its at least 10K.

That right there is 20K per runner, or 100K for a 5 man team of runners. And the expenses (at least) are paid in advance.

A more normal run that involves the loss of drones, the pissing off of a major organization (running against Ares for example), or enough felonies to result in the death penalty/several hundred years in prison should be paying around 150K.

----
My characters (again barring specific back stories) tell their fixers to make sure that the Johnson knows about the 100K minimum in advance. At the meet said character asks the Johnson a series of questions about the run; nothing specific but enough to tell them probable danger, etc. The character then tells the Johnson a ballpark figure for the run, the Johnson can agree that its at least reasonable or the runners walk. He can choose to share the data with the players without a commitment to accept the job if he thinks that there are mitigating factors, or he can leave. If the Johnson agrees that the figure is reasonable then he will give the runners the details. Now final haggling begins. If the Johnson misrepresented the truth in answering the initial questions then the characters will up the price to match the data.


Note: This is only for contract runs. My players and my characters generally do favor runs or stuff that they plan themselves - "Hey, some rich guy just bought a panting for 10 million and he leaves here in Seattle. Want to rob him?"

----
Street games are fine but they don't work that well at 400 BP
Sir_Psycho
Sorry tippy, but the Johnson simply doesn't care about you enough to fork 100-150 thou for a bunch of 0 street cred renners that he's never heard about. You can whistle "100k minimum" to your fixer if you want, but good luck if he would call you back.

As for replacing equipment such as trashed vehicles and drones and chopping up the guns you used? J cares even less. Why should he pay you, a runner he does not know, 20k, when he could actually get a runner with a better rep (Cred 1) who will likely do the job for half of that.

I don't dispute that getting new fake SINs, weapons and safehouses is a good, conscientious, and secure way to run, but until you have the rep to afford that kind of precaution, you're pissing in the wind.

Emperor Tippy
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ May 21 2008, 12:02 AM) *
Sorry tippy, but the Johnson simply doesn't care about you enough to fork 100-150 thou for a bunch of 0 street cred renners that he's never heard about. You can whistle "100k minimum" to your fixer if you want, but good luck if he would call you back.

As for replacing equipment such as trashed vehicles and drones and chopping up the guns you used? J cares even less. Why should he pay you, a runner he does not know, 20k, when he could actually get a runner with a better rep (Cred 1) who will likely do the job for half of that.

I don't dispute that getting new fake SINs, weapons and safehouses is a good, conscientious, and secure way to run, but until you have the rep to afford that kind of precaution, you're pissing in the wind.


Again, this just doesn't fit with 400 BP. Whether or not you have every run before, you have the skill set of a professional. You are risking your life to do something that is of no personal interest to yourself except in the monetary sense. You have other ways to make money which carry far less risk. If someone wants *you* to risk *your* life and freedom then they need to pay you what you consider an acceptable amount for said risk. If they don't consider the amount acceptable then you shrug and walk away.

I would far rather mug a drug dealer or jack a car if I need to make this months rent than risk my life for a similar amount of money.

As for street cred and rep, you shouldn't have either if you do your job well. Your fixer should be the only person who knows anything about you, and in almost every case that should only be a way to contact you and your skill set. You don't tell people when you do runs or when you have done runs. A Johnson should not be able to track you or link you to any previous or future runs.

As for the expenses, I will give the Johnson an itemized list in advance and he can either pay it or not, if he doesn't we walk. I have no incentive to run at a loss.

And even at 100K for the run, your still cheaper than an in house team. Your average runner has that much in ware inside them. The corp has to cover said cost for the inhouse team. And the inhouse team isn't as deniable.
Teulisch
its not about the BP! it dosent matter how much 'skill' you have! it matters more if you have what it takes to get the job done. Mr. J wants results.

so forget about the numbers. look at what the Mr. J knows, what he thinks, and what he can afford. that matters far more than what obscure numbers you have on a sheet of paper.

if you want to sandbox it with car jacking? feel free. who knows, maybe you'll survive and turn a profit. but that isnt exactly shadowrunning, and it gets you a different kind of rep.
Emperor Tippy
QUOTE (Teulisch @ May 21 2008, 01:03 AM) *
its not about the BP! it dosent matter how much 'skill' you have! it matters more if you have what it takes to get the job done. Mr. J wants results.

Mr. J wants a deniable asset that accomplishes the mission and doesn't talk about said mission. If he can link you to a previous run then why should he believe that someone else can't link you to his run. If he can trace you then why shouldn't he believe that someone else can do the same and perhaps pressure you into revealing what you know.

QUOTE
so forget about the numbers. look at what the Mr. J knows, what he thinks, and what he can afford. that matters far more than what obscure numbers you have on a sheet of paper.

Mr. J knows that he called a dependable fixer and that the fixer told him that if he wants a good team then here is a com number to call and leave a contact number, the minimum cost for the run will be 100K. The fixer told him that if he just wants muscle or a specific skill then it could be cheaper (highering gangers for example, or a matrix specialist). Mr. J knows that when he attempted to trace the com number he came up blank. He knows that he left a number and a person told him a time to be at a certain restaurant and to ask for the table reserved for Mr. Johnson. He knows that 1 person showed up and placed 2 comlinks with a fiber optic link on the table and told him to pick one and put on the trodes. He knows that the face picked up the other and put it on and that the rest of the conversation happened entirely in there heads where it couldn't be intercepted. He knows that the face told him that he is not to leave the restaurant until 10 minutes after the face does and that he is not to attempt to follow said face. Failure to follow these rules will cause the snipers outside to put a bullet through his head as he leaves.

As for what he can afford, if the Johnson can't afford a hundred thousand for a run then he shouldn't be in the business. That pay data is worth millions to his corp. Corps don't just capriciously higher people to steal from their competitors or assassinate rivals or extract assets. It's not good business.

QUOTE
if you want to sandbox it with car jacking? feel free. who knows, maybe you'll survive and turn a profit. but that isn't exactly shadowrunning, and it gets you a different kind of rep.

What's this rep? No one, and I do mean no one should be able to link any of your identities to any of your other identities. Maybe your teammates know where your house/apartment is. But even they shouldn't really know who you are without earning that trust. For your Rep to change people have to link the act to you. And you don't have a consistent identity to link it to.
Sir_Psycho
How about an analogy of another career to demonstrate how shadowrunning works. How about hospitality?

I worked in a cafe for the better part of a year. I was young, I had dropped out of school, and I was working a crappy job below minimum wage. Hell, I was making so little money, that I could have gone back to school and made more money from youth allowance/oz-study (Australia's welfare system). But why was I being paid so badly? It wasn't because I was a bad employee. It was because I was young and inexperienced, and without any references on my resume, and no higher school certificate, I couldn't get anything better.

That's a shadowrunner for you. They've got the skills and the ware to be a good shadowrunner. But it means nothing if you don't have a rep to back it up. That's why you start small, doing jobs for less than you're worth. It's not the money you're doing it for when you're a bottom-tier runner, that's just buying you food and rent. You're working for the rep. And if you are a good runner, then it's going to filter back, and people will be willing to lay down more nuyen for your services.

The car-jacking analogy sucks, and it's used all the time here on DS. Sure, a starting runner can make better money by jacking a car. But there's little advancement. You're a car-jacker, you jack the same cars for the same deals for the same chop-shops. You don't expand your contacts, you don't get a rep, except that you're a decent car-jacker. When you're a shadowrunner, there's advancement, if you work hard enough and make the right connections, you can make more money than a car-jacker can dream of. Shadowrunning is a hard job, and no, the money at first is not good. But with ambition and reputation, it can be a very lucrative job.

Of course, street cred and rep don't mean that you have to go around saying "you know that ares facility that had the ebola-plus scare last week? That was actually my team, and the scare was faked by our decker, so we could actually make a copy of a secret file called 'Ares-Research12486'. It's not bragging and leaving a trail, it's customer satisfaction. You do a job for a Johnson, and if you're this "good runner" you keep talking about, he will pass the compliments back to your fixer, and your fixer might decide you're ready for a more challenging and better paying assignment that has just been brought to the table.

And if you don't go through this process, if you just walk into a blind sit-down with a johnson and suddenly demand that he pays for this and that, you don't look proffessional. You may have the skills of a proffessional, but if you can't do it under budget, then you're not using the correct level of force and discretion and you're not a proffessional.
Emperor Tippy
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ May 21 2008, 01:31 AM) *
How about an analogy of another career to demonstrate how shadowrunning works. How about hospitality?

I worked in a cafe for the better part of a year. I was young, I had dropped out of school, and I was working a crappy job below minimum wage. Hell, I was making so little money, that I could have gone back to school and made more money from youth allowance/oz-study (Australia's welfare system). But why was I being paid so badly? It wasn't because I was a bad employee. It was because I was young and inexperienced, and without any references on my resume, and no higher school certificate, I couldn't get anything better.

You weren't risking your life. You weren't committing felonies on a daily basis. Your company wasn't willing to disavow your existence.

QUOTE
That's a shadowrunner for you. They've got the skills and the ware to be a good shadowrunner. But it means nothing if you don't have a rep to back it up. That's why you start small, doing jobs for less than you're worth. It's not the money you're doing it for when you're a bottom-tier runner, that's just buying you food and rent. You're working for the rep. And if you are a good runner, then it's going to filter back, and people will be willing to lay down more nuyen for your services.

Again, if you have a rep you have failed on your run. If the Johnson can find out what other runs you have done thats means that others will be able to find out about this one. The only person you will have a rep with is your fixer, and all he knows is that no Johnson has complained about your failure on a run. And again, 100K is working for food and rent. Thats 10K a person, or enough to support a high lifestyle on 1 run a month. The ones with multiple successful runs are pulling down the million nuyen.gif or more jobs and getting a new genetic reprint after every run.

QUOTE
The car-jacking analogy sucks, and it's used all the time here on DS. Sure, a starting runner can make better money by jacking a car. But there's little advancement. You're a car-jacker, you jack the same cars for the same deals for the same chop-shops. You don't expand your contacts, you don't get a rep, except that you're a decent car-jacker. When you're a shadowrunner, there's advancement, if you work hard enough and make the right connections, you can make more money than a car-jacker can dream of. Shadowrunning is a hard job, and no, the money at first is not good. But with ambition and reputation, it can be a very lucrative job.

It doesn't matter. Why should I risk my life for a luxury life style when I can live a high lifestyle for relatively little risk? And again, a rep is not a good thing to have. It means that you are traceable.

QUOTE
Of course, street cred and rep don't mean that you have to go around saying "you know that ares facility that had the ebola-plus scare last week? That was actually my team, and the scare was faked by our decker, so we could actually make a copy of a secret file called 'Ares-Research12486'. It's not bragging and leaving a trail, it's customer satisfaction. You do a job for a Johnson, and if you're this "good runner" you keep talking about, he will pass the compliments back to your fixer, and your fixer might decide you're ready for a more challenging and better paying assignment that has just been brought to the table.

Sure, and thats when you get the 200K jobs. Or the million nuyen.gif jobs.

What it really comes down to is 10K won't cover the cost of doing the run. No intelligent, professional, runner will accept a run that pays him less than his expenses. Once you accept that fact you are at a 50K minimum per run. Now we get into what the runners risk is actually worth. Don't think of it as a 100K for a runner. It's 10K for the runner. Enough to support a high lifestyle or make a profit if he lives a lower lifestyle.

QUOTE
And if you don't go through this process, if you just walk into a blind sit-down with a johnson and suddenly demand that he pays for this and that, you don't look proffessional. You may have the skills of a proffessional, but if you can't do it under budget, then you're not using the correct level of force and discretion and you're not a proffessional.

You are doing it under budget. Let's go with the basic paydata run. The corp would not be highering if that pay data was worth anything less than several million nuyen.gif, its just not worth the risk or trouble. It could potentially be worth several hundred million nuyen.gif (stealing that companies new OS, erasing their copy, and giving it to the johnson for example). Let's say the pay data is worth 10 million nuyen.gif (low), 100K is 1%

And you aren't sitting down demanding said money, the fixer already told the Johnson that it was a 100K minimum and what the procedure would be (at least most of it).
ArkonC
Tippy, you seem to be falling for the trap of believing you deserve more money...
You fail to realize that Mr. J doesn't care if you do the job, or some other poor sap...
If you tried to pull what you're describing at my table as a beginning runner, you'd be ridiculed by the whole runner community...
"Yeah, I know him, the guy who think he's all that? He's out there, trying to jack enough cars to make this months rent. ... Oh yes, we did the job he declined. ... Let's meet and discuss the specifics..."
400BP doesn't make you god's gift to runners...
You try that for any job without the rep to back it up, and you'll get laughed at (if you're lucky) or killed (if the Mr. J doesn't like arrogant loose end who are likely to try to sell him out)...

nuyen.gif isn't the only form of payment, you forget about the rep and contacts you build up while running, and the die-hard-pro you describe might work when you are a government assassin, but as a runner, you need a name, you need a rep, and you need to have contacts who know you, a man on his own in the shadows is an easy target, no matter how well trained he is.
kzt
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ May 20 2008, 11:31 PM) *
The car-jacking analogy sucks, and it's used all the time here on DS. Sure, a starting runner can make better money by jacking a car. But there's little advancement. You're a car-jacker, you jack the same cars for the same deals for the same chop-shops.

The other reason that this analogy sucks is that guys who steal cars for chop shops don't really make much money. If you OWN the chop shop you might make several/many thousands from a stolen car, the guy who steals it for you is making a few hundred at most. Stealing the car is the easiest part of the whole "getting rich from GTA" cycle and therefore pays the least. The guy who can fake the title, the guy who can strip the tracers, the guy who can take a car apart in 20 minutes, the guy who runs the place and manages relations with the cops and car thieves, the guy who find buyers for the parts, these are the people that have useful skills/resources that are not possessed by every thug.

Your only going to do well at this if you can retitle the car and sell it to someone at close to market value for what a non-stolen car gets.
Emperor Tippy
QUOTE (ArkonC @ May 21 2008, 02:12 AM) *
Tippy, you seem to be falling for the trap of believing you deserve more money...
You fail to realize that Mr. J doesn't care if you do the job, or some other poor sap...

Then Mr. J is free to pay someone else. It's not that you deserve that much money or more money. It's just what it costs to higher a professional. In real life you can pay the homeless drug addict to kill someone for a rock of rack or a few hundred bucks. Or you can higher a professional hitman for anywhere from 50K up to several million or more. Thats for a 1-2 man team at the low end. If Mr. J wants a low end job he can higher the team of 250 BP gangers to do it.


QUOTE
If you tried to pull what you're describing at my table as a beginning runner, you'd be ridiculed by the whole runner community...
"Yeah, I know him, the guy who think he's all that? He's out there, trying to jack enough cars to make this months rent. ... Oh yes, we did the job he declined. ... Let's meet and discuss the specifics..."

See, failure here. There is no "Yeah, I know him". If you are a professional that does not happen. You are a randomly generated face (nanopaste or false front) who the Johnson might have a picture of and that will never be used again. You are an online handle that no one knows in the meat, or several of them.

QUOTE
400BP doesn't make you god's gift to runners...

No it doesn't. It also, objectively (seeing as only 50 BP can be spent on gear) makes you a highly skilled, highly talented, professional with several thousand nuyen.gif worth of gear in your body. A 4 in a skill is Veteran level. A 6 is best of the best. Most runners have several skills at 4 or higher (and many have whole skill groups at that level). And if the person has focused on 1 trait (say hacking) they can really be one of the 5 or so best in the world out of char gen (especially if the GM lets you code your own programs above rating 6).

QUOTE
You try that for any job without the rep to back it up, and you'll get laughed at (if you're lucky) or killed (if the Mr. J doesn't like arrogant loose end who are likely to try to sell him out)...

Again, if the Johnson knows your rep you have failed. Your fixer knows but your Johnson shouldn't (it means that you have one). And I would be a lot more likely to not trust the team with 5 guys who show up, agree to meet in a private room, accept my offer of 20K for the 5 of them, and agree to have the run done in 3 days. They are easier to bribe, apparently have no sense of security, apparently are trusting, and don't do proper legwork.

QUOTE
nuyen.gif isn't the only form of payment, you forget about the rep and contacts you build up while running, and the die-hard-pro you describe might work when you are a government assassin, but as a runner, you need a name, you need a rep, and you need to have contacts who know you, a man on his own in the shadows is an easy target, no matter how well trained he is.

Sure you need contacts. Those contacts need not know the same person. You may have a childhood buddy who owns a private clinic and thinks that you are a private consultant who specializes in "Acquisition Facilitation". You may have a fixer who knows you as Ghost, the person who gets the job done. You may have a banker who knows you as the next door neighbor who found him a friend to get back his daughter when she was kidnapped. You may know an arms dealer who knows you as Snake and that your credit is good.

As for being on your own in the shadows, your not. You have your team. And again, that assumes that people are gunning for you and can find you.

As for Rep, how would your Johnson know it in the first place? Johnson's don't talk to one another. They can ask around but what does it mean when they find nothing, that the runner is a professional who hides themselves well and takes proper security precautions? Or that the runner is new? At the meet the runner appeared professional, asked relevant questions, charged a reasonable rate, and was completely impossible for the Johnson to track. So does he assume a new runner or a professional?

As a player and a GM I assume that the Johnson has a camera on the whole meet and has a agent running a real time search for anything and everything it can find on the runner.


What it really comes down to is this: Would you risk your life for $5,000 when you could get a job paying 120K a year with benefits by just showing up at a company? Now how about the same thing except reasonable precautions against loosing your life cost you 10K. No runner would risk their life for -5K.
Muspellsheimr
In the shadows, you need reputation. Just because other's know of your rep does not mean you failed. If they know the specifics of the jobs you pulled to get that rep is when you fail.

For example, one of my characters has a reputation for wetwork. She is a known professional assassin. However, the only people that know which jobs she has pulled are herself, the Johnson, and to a lesser extend, her fixer. Just because you are known to do something does not mean which instances of said something you were involved in.
ArkonC
QUOTE (Emperor Tippy @ May 21 2008, 08:46 AM) *
Then Mr. J is free to pay someone else. It's not that you deserve that much money or more money. It's just what it costs to higher a professional. In real life you can pay the homeless drug addict to kill someone for a rock of rack or a few hundred bucks. Or you can higher a professional hitman for anywhere from 50K up to several million or more. Thats for a 1-2 man team at the low end. If Mr. J wants a low end job he can higher the team of 250 BP gangers to do it.

And how long can you keep turning down jobs before you run out of money to pay rent?
QUOTE (Emperor Tippy @ May 21 2008, 08:46 AM) *
See, failure here. There is no "Yeah, I know him". If you are a professional that does not happen. You are a randomly generated face (nanopaste or false front) who the Johnson might have a picture of and that will never be used again. You are an online handle that no one knows in the meat, or several of them.

Again, you're not a professional assassin or special ops guy, you are a shadowrunner and shadowrunners live and die by their rep, if you don't get this there is very little I can do about it...
QUOTE (Emperor Tippy @ May 21 2008, 08:46 AM) *
No it doesn't. It also, objectively (seeing as only 50 BP can be spent on gear) makes you a highly skilled, highly talented, professional with several thousand nuyen.gif worth of gear in your body. A 4 in a skill is Veteran level. A 6 is best of the best. Most runners have several skills at 4 or higher (and many have whole skill groups at that level). And if the person has focused on 1 trait (say hacking) they can really be one of the 5 or so best in the world out of char gen (especially if the GM lets you code your own programs above rating 6).

Just like every other runner out there then...
QUOTE (Emperor Tippy @ May 21 2008, 08:46 AM) *
Again, if the Johnson knows your rep you have failed. Your fixer knows but your Johnson shouldn't (it means that you have one). And I would be a lot more likely to not trust the team with 5 guys who show up, agree to meet in a private room, accept my offer of 20K for the 5 of them, and agree to have the run done in 3 days. They are easier to bribe, apparently have no sense of security, apparently are trusting, and don't do proper legwork.

Again Shadowrunner live and die by their rep, no rep, no good jobs...
QUOTE (Emperor Tippy @ May 21 2008, 08:46 AM) *
Sure you need contacts. Those contacts need not know the same person. You may have a childhood buddy who owns a private clinic and thinks that you are a private consultant who specializes in "Acquisition Facilitation". You may have a fixer who knows you as Ghost, the person who gets the job done. You may have a banker who knows you as the next door neighbor who found him a friend to get back his daughter when she was kidnapped. You may know an arms dealer who knows you as Snake and that your credit is good.

As for being on your own in the shadows, your not. You have your team. And again, that assumes that people are gunning for you and can find you.

As for Rep, how would your Johnson know it in the first place? Johnson's don't talk to one another. They can ask around but what does it mean when they find nothing, that the runner is a professional who hides themselves well and takes proper security precautions? Or that the runner is new? At the meet the runner appeared professional, asked relevant questions, charged a reasonable rate, and was completely impossible for the Johnson to track. So does he assume a new runner or a professional?

As a player and a GM I assume that the Johnson has a camera on the whole meet and has a agent running a real time search for anything and everything it can find on the runner.

Again, shadowrunners LIVE AND DIE BY THEIR REP!
If NO ONE knows you, NO ONE is going to offer you any sweet deals...
If you spend most of your hard earned cash trying to remain alone and unknown, don't whine when no one knows you when the shit hits the fan...
And as to this reasonable rate the runner is asking, if it is more than Mr. J is willing to pay, it isn't reasonable, and not all runs are for multi million nuyen.gif worth of paydata, a lot of runs aren't even for things that are worth a million to the corp, "They're working on someone we want to know what it is, 25K, take it or leave it" is a very common run in my experience...
Acting like a pro is acting like an arrogant self satisfied git, unless you have the rep to back it up...
QUOTE (Emperor Tippy @ May 21 2008, 08:46 AM) *
What it really comes down to is this: Would you risk your life for $5,000 when you could get a job paying 120K a year with benefits by just showing up at a company? Now how about the same thing except reasonable precautions against loosing your life cost you 10K. No runner would risk their life for -5K.

No, what it really comes down to is you're a SINless loser who has the choice between carving out a rep for himself and start pulling down some nice jobs, or staying a nobody and stealing cars for a "safe" but meager living...
You try running up to the Star, telling them you kick ass with guns and have no SIN...
Will they:
A) Give you a job.
B) Arrest you and frame you for some high profile crime they haven't been able to solve.
Let me see here...
Emperor Tippy
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ May 21 2008, 02:57 AM) *
In the shadows, you need reputation. Just because other's know of your rep does not mean you failed. If they know the specifics of the jobs you pulled to get that rep is when you fail.

How did you get said rep? I don't mean what did you do specifically but how did you get it?

QUOTE
For example, one of my characters has a reputation for wetwork. She is a known professional assassin. However, the only people that know which jobs she has pulled are herself, the Johnson, and to a lesser extend, her fixer. Just because you are known to do something does not mean which instances of said something you were involved in.

Sure. I know you work is Seattle (or where ever) and that X was hit. It was to clean for a ganger or the like, meaning a professional did it. Does Seattle have any people with a rep for wetwork? Sure. How many? 5 maybe?. Now who has the best rep out of those 5? And how hard is it to do an indepth check on 5 people when you have a place to start? Not that difficult.

That you are known to do something is irrelevant, its easy to plant such things. That you are known to be good at something is different, but getting known to be good at a job requires that other people know about your work in the job.

You can say your a great programmer and even get that planted in peoples mind fairly easily. But if you never show anyone any of your programs then they don't really know your that good.

So the only person you really should have a rep with is your fixer. And he should just know that your Johnson's have never complained about you messing up a run. As for your rep just starting out:

Mr. Johnson: I need a team that does extractions, the target is mid level and has a moderate security detail.
Fixer: Well I have 2 possible teams that are available. Team A has done work for me in the past, no complaints but they charge a minimum of 200K. Team B hasn't worked for me before but they apparently have the skills and are professional, they charge a minimum of 100K. I'll vouch for the first team but no guarantees on the second.
Mr. Johnson: This shouldn't be real hairry. So long as they are professionals I'll meet with team B.
Fixer: Here's the comcode. Leave a number to contact you at and you should here from them within a day or so.
Mr. Johnson: Very well, I've just wired 10K to your account.

Your assumption that you are charging more than others is flawed. 100K is a great deal when the runners with the "rep" are charging 200K, 500K, or even several million for the run.
ArkonC
To the OP, check out the SRM for what they pay...
You can find them here...
Emperor Tippy
QUOTE (ArkonC @ May 21 2008, 03:02 AM) *
And how long can you keep turning down jobs before you run out of money to pay rent?

As long as you have to. There are safer ways to make money.

QUOTE
Again, you're not a professional assassin or special ops guy, you are a shadowrunner and shadowrunners live and die by their rep, if you don't get this there is very little I can do about it...

Um professional assassins and special ops guys are exactly what shadowrunners are. They are also demolitions experts, B&E specialists, kidnappers, etc. And yes, you live and die by your rep. But that rep is between you and your Fixer. Not you and the world at large.

QUOTE
Just like every other runner out there then...

PRIME RUNNERS
Every once in a while, player characters will encounter a
memorable NPC who is their match, or better. These individu-
als may also reappear now and again over the course of several
adventures. These special characters are called prime runners.
Prime runners are signature characters that appear over the
course of an adventure. If an adventure could be thought of as
an action movie, a prime runner is the equivalent of the evil
mastermind, the mastermind’s chief henchman, or the femme
fatale. Most prime runners oppose the characters as chief an-
tagonists, but some may be neutral, helping or harming the PCs
according to their own personal agenda.

Um no.

QUOTE
Again Shadowrunner live and die by their rep, no rep, no good jobs...

Again, shadowrunners LIVE AND DIE BY THEIR REP!

Sure, their Rep with their Fixer. Not there rep with random underworld figure X

QUOTE
If NO ONE knows you, NO ONE is going to offer you any sweet deals...

Yeah, you should be getting your referrals though your fixer. It's what you have him for.

QUOTE
If you spend most of your hard earned cash trying to remain alone and unknown, don't whine when no one knows you when the shit hits the fan...

People do know you. The arm's dealer knows you as the guy who got the star to drop their investigation. Or the guy who found someone to get the mob to stop hassling him. He doesn't know you did it but you now have a higher rep with him. The fact that no on else has ever heard of "Snake" doesn't matter.

QUOTE
And as to this reasonable rate the runner is asking, if it is more than Mr. J is willing to pay, it isn't reasonable, and not all runs are for multi million nuyen.gif worth of paydata, a lot of runs aren't even for things that are worth a million to the corp, "They're working on someone we want to know what it is, 25K, take it or leave it" is a very common run in my experience...

Why doesn't the J just talk to someone in the know at the corp and pay him a 20K bribe? That's prolly a good quarter of the secretaries yearly salary. Or the janitors. Much easier and safer than paying a team of 5 guys to brake in after hours and take a look. It's a great rate for 1 guy doing matrix work and hacking into the system from his safe house.

QUOTE
Acting like a pro is acting like an arrogant self satisfied git, unless you have the rep to back it up...

If you are a pro then the Johnson does not know your rep. All he knows about you is what your fixer told him, which should be the bare minimum.

QUOTE
No, what it really comes down to is you're a SINless loser who has the choice between carving out a rep for himself and start pulling down some nice jobs, or staying a nobody and stealing cars for a "safe" but meager living...
You try running up to the Star, telling them you kick ass with guns and have no SIN...
Will they:
A) Give you a job.
B) Arrest you and frame you for some high profile crime they haven't been able to solve.
Let me see here...

How about you walk up to Knight Errant and say:
You: Hey, I used to be UCAS special forces but I was undercover when Crash 2.0 happened and my records got lost. I came out of cover a few months back and the UCAS disavowed my whole department while I was gone. I'm great with firearms and infiltration, the UCAS filled me up with a ton of combat enhancers, and I'm personable. I need a job and I'm wondering if your interested?
KE: Let's see what you got.
A few hours later after you passed their tests.
KE: You have the skills we're looking for. Let's put you on as a contractor, no salary but we will give you an Ares SIN and provide some work. If everything works out it can turn into a salary position. We have a contract to provide some bodyguards, the principal is a low level manager. It shouldn't be that dangerous, it's a 2 week job and pays 2.5K plus all expenses for those 2 weeks. Bring your own weapon.
You: Thanks.

That sound kinda like a shadow run and something someone with no rep would get? Sure does to me. It's also low risk, legal, and you can quickly be making a lot more money with a runners skill set.
ArkonC
QUOTE (Emperor Tippy @ May 21 2008, 09:52 AM) *
As long as you have to. There are safer ways to make money.

And you'll be doing it for all eternity unless you start building up a rep...

QUOTE (Emperor Tippy @ May 21 2008, 09:52 AM) *
Um professional assassins and special ops guys are exactly what shadowrunners are. They are also demolitions experts, B&E specialists, kidnappers, etc. And yes, you live and die by your rep. But that rep is between you and your Fixer. Not you and the world at large.

No, they are spycraft people woth big organisations to back them up, they don't need a rep to attract jobs, they work for the company...
Shadowrunners are deniable assets with no backup, just themselves and their, get this, rep...

QUOTE (Emperor Tippy @ May 21 2008, 09:52 AM) *
PRIME RUNNERS
Every once in a while, player characters will encounter a
memorable NPC who is their match, or better. These individu-
als may also reappear now and again over the course of several
adventures. These special characters are called prime runners.
Prime runners are signature characters that appear over the
course of an adventure. If an adventure could be thought of as
an action movie, a prime runner is the equivalent of the evil
mastermind, the mastermind’s chief henchman, or the femme
fatale. Most prime runners oppose the characters as chief an-
tagonists, but some may be neutral, helping or harming the PCs
according to their own personal agenda.

Um no.

Um, no.

QUOTE (Emperor Tippy @ May 21 2008, 09:52 AM) *
Sure, their Rep with their Fixer. Not there rep with random underworld figure X

Guy geeks Fixer, you're back to no one knowing you...

QUOTE (Emperor Tippy @ May 21 2008, 09:52 AM) *
Yeah, you should be getting your referrals though your fixer. It's what you have him for.

Oh, someone killed him...
Back to no one knowing you...

QUOTE (Emperor Tippy @ May 21 2008, 09:52 AM) *
People do know you. The arm's dealer knows you as the guy who got the star to drop their investigation. Or the guy who found someone to get the mob to stop hassling him. He doesn't know you did it but you now have a higher rep with him. The fact that no on else has ever heard of "Snake" doesn't matter.

If no one knows you did it, you don't have a rep for doing it...

QUOTE (Emperor Tippy @ May 21 2008, 09:52 AM) *
Why doesn't the J just talk to someone in the know at the corp and pay him a 20K bribe? That's prolly a good quarter of the secretaries yearly salary. Or the janitors. Much easier and safer than paying a team of 5 guys to brake in after hours and take a look. It's a great rate for 1 guy doing matrix work and hacking into the system from his safe house.

Mr. J doesn't care if you bring everyone and their moms on the jobs, the job pays 25K, you want all the pay yourself? Go alone...
If you need to go with 5 people to be safe, maybe you shouldn't be running or maybe you should suck it up...

QUOTE (Emperor Tippy @ May 21 2008, 09:52 AM) *
If you are a pro then the Johnson does not know your rep. All he knows about you is what your fixer told him, which should be the bare minimum.

Man, since when did rep become unimportant in the shadows?
A rep is not between you and you fixer, that's just like, his opinion, man...
A rep is what the community thinks of you...
No rep = nobody...

QUOTE (Emperor Tippy @ May 21 2008, 09:52 AM) *
How about you walk up to Knight Errant and say:
You: Hey, I used to be UCAS special forces but I was undercover when Crash 2.0 happened and my records got lost. I came out of cover a few months back and the UCAS disavowed my whole department while I was gone. I'm great with firearms and infiltration, the UCAS filled me up with a ton of combat enhancers, and I'm personable. I need a job and I'm wondering if your interested?
KE: Let's see what you got.
A few hours later after you passed their tests.
KE: You have the skills we're looking for. Let's put you on as a contractor, no salary but we will give you an Ares SIN and provide some work. If everything works out it can turn into a salary position. We have a contract to provide some bodyguards, the principal is a low level manager. It shouldn't be that dangerous, it's a 2 week job and pays 2.5K plus all expenses for those 2 weeks. Bring your own weapon.
You: Thanks.

That sound kinda like a shadow run and something someone with no rep would get? Sure does to me. It's also low risk, legal, and you can quickly be making a lot more money with a runners skill set.

Or KE frames you because you admitted to being special forces and having proved it through testing...
Sounds like an idiot to me...
"My government denies my existence, I'm all alone, protect me?"

But this is going no where very slowly, so let's stop here, you feel runner should be payed a lot more than I do, or than any game fluff indicates, or even the official Shadowrun missions...
And that is your god given right, we have also played games like that, and it was fun, but it is far from the norm...

Now in the interest of not seeming like I want to have the last word, you can reply to this, but I have said all I will on the subject...
Emperor Tippy
QUOTE (ArkonC @ May 21 2008, 04:21 AM) *
And you'll be doing it for all eternity unless you start building up a rep...

Not really. Eventually the Johnson will risk the 100K instead of going with the 200K team that the fixer vouches for.

QUOTE
No, they are spycraft people woth big organisations to back them up, they don't need a rep to attract jobs, they work for the company...
Shadowrunners are deniable assets with no backup, just themselves and their, get this, rep...

Do shadow runners do wetwork that they have no personal interest in? Do shadowrunners do assaults on locations or people without a personal motive? Do shadowrunners break into secure locations and steal things that they personally don't care about?

Those are the definitions of professional assassin, special forces solider, and professional thief. Shadowrunners are anyone who does illegal activities for money.

=Um, no.=
Thats what the core book says.

=Guy geeks Fixer, you're back to no one knowing you...=
You should have more than 1 fixer, each knows a different "persona".

QUOTE
Oh, someone killed him...
Back to no one knowing you...

Again, you should have multiple fixers that each know you as someone different.

QUOTE
If no one knows you did it, you don't have a rep for doing it...

And if someone knows you did it then you have a rep for people finding out your work.

=Mr. J doesn't care if you bring everyone and their moms on the jobs, the job pays 25K, you want all the pay yourself? Go alone...
If you need to go with 5 people to be safe, maybe you shouldn't be running or maybe you should suck it up...=
Mr. J should never have bothered to higher the runners in the first place. He should have just bribed someone. Easier and safer.

QUOTE
Man, since when did rep become unimportant in the shadows?
A rep is not between you and you fixer, that's just like, his opinion, man...
A rep is what the community thinks of you...
No rep = nobody...

If you are a part of said community then you are an idiot. "Flappy" can be part of the community and known for offering good opinions on matrix work and matrix security. "John" can be known as a guy who knows his weapons. "Mojo" can be known as the guy who is good for theoretical magic discussions. Everyone of them can be the same person and no one else should know it.

The J doesn't know he hired "Flappy" he knows that your are John Doe, the man the fixer told him to contact about the job. He knows exactly what the fixer told him and can't find out anything more. 2 months later the same J can talk to the same fixer and be put in contact with Bob Brown, the man the fixer told him to contact about the job. They can be the exact same person and he shouldn't even have a clue.

QUOTE
Or KE frames you because you admitted to being special forces and having proved it through testing...
Sounds like an idiot to me...
"My government denies my existence, I'm all alone, protect me?"

Frames you for what? For corps its all a cost/benefit analysis. So is it better to higher a good guard or to frame said guard for something when he has done nothing to piss us off. If they need to frame somebody they grab a random ganger off the street and frame him.

QUOTE
But this is going no where very slowly, so let's stop here, you feel runner should be payed a lot more than I do, or than any game fluff indicates, or even the official Shadowrun missions...

It's not my fault that some things don't make sense. Take the "On the Run" mission. Somehow the vamp in the graveyard knows exactly how much the Johnson is paying you for the run. Somehow the Johnson knows if you sold the goods to the vamps before you sold them to him, even though you met with the vamps not an hour earlier.

And thats a very low risk mission with minimal risk. If you just do the run the J pay's you for then you net 4K per person (iirc, it pays 20K) for a low risk run that takes 2-4 days to complete and doesn't require any expenses.


QUOTE
And that is your god given right, we have also played games like that, and it was fun, but it is far from the norm...

*Shrug* I play as, and GM expecting, professional runners and a professional community that doesn't fuck around. The Johnson's and the runners are both expected to stick to the agreement, not because of rep or anything so nebulous, because both sides expect the other to have security out of sight waiting to put a bullet through their brain pan. Pay is generally transferred to a numbered bank account where it is automatically laundered though several shell companies in several different companies before ending up in yet another numbered account for the runners to draw on.

QUOTE
Now in the interest of not seeming like I want to have the last word, you can reply to this, but I have said all I will on the subject...

*Shrug* Street level games are fine, and I even think they can be fun, but without specific backstories or a lower BP level they really don't make much sense. Maybe the team is made up of a bunch of friends who just got fired/are unemployed and decide one drunken night that being runners would be fun so they go and do it.

Because of quote limits per post some quotes are marked with an '=' at the beginning and end.
Fortune
Some people might be inspired to stop and think about how they are viewing the situation when they realize that pretty much every other person involved in the discussion disagrees with their stated point-of-view.
bishop186
QUOTE (Emperor Tippy @ May 21 2008, 02:49 AM) *
Not really. Eventually the Johnson will risk the 100K instead of going with the 200K team that the fixer vouches for.


It seems to me that if corps are all about Cost/Benefit Analysis then wouldn't the Mr. J see more benefit for the cost of someone that the fixer is more confident to get it done?

For example, if you hire an Analyst to look over your systems and the Analyst says that neither program will work completely, guaranteed, but that the more expensive one is more likely to work than the other, which are you going to pick? If you're on a low budget and it's not a mandatory system, sure, you might pick the second one but you'd probably feel more secure picking the one that your Analyst is more confident about.

Same with the Fixer. Your fixer says I've got two guys, one with a decent reputation for getting the job done for $75K and one for no Rep for $50K ($15K and $10K for a team of 5, respectively) the Mr. J is more likely to choose the $75K if he needs it to be done and has the money to spend, and the $50K if he's on a budget and doesn't care as much about it.

Seems to me that the more prestige you have (even if it's just with your fixer), the higher the jobs and more money you'll get.

You say "eventually" the Mr. J will risk it; to me that sounds like you get less jobs for less money with no rep. Rep seems to be the mechanism for getting more jobs for more money, doesn't it?
reepneep
QUOTE (Fortune @ May 21 2008, 03:58 AM) *
Some people might be inspired to stop and think about how they are viewing the situation when they realize that pretty much every other person involved in the discussion disagrees with their stated point-of-view.

You are aware that this discussion is taking place on teh intarwebs, yes?
Sir_Psycho
QUOTE
Mr. Johnson: I need a team that does extractions, the target is mid level and has a moderate security detail.
Fixer: Well I have 2 possible teams that are available. Team A has done work for me in the past, no complaints but they charge a minimum of 200K. Team B hasn't worked for me before but they apparently have the skills and are professional, they charge a minimum of 100K. I'll vouch for the first team but no guarantees on the second

So you justify charging 100k by suggesting that the teams who aren't bottom-feeders with no rep like you are making 200k? Excellent supportive evidence there. I'll suggest some of my own.

QUOTE (Contacts and Adventures)
2. After a typical meet at a bar, Mr. Johnson asks the team to do
a typical job—a datasteal for a corp. The target: GMC. However,
this is not exactly a datasteal. It’s a data switch.
Federated-Boeing caught wind that GMC was putting out
a new design for their Banshee t-bird, which made the corp quite
upset because it employed technology Fed-Boeing had secretly
developed. Evidently, someone’s been leaking information. What
the runners are to do is hack into GMC (which may require some
on-site sleuthing), find the vehicle specs and take them, and then
plant a bogus file with changed specs. For this, the team would
be paid 40,000¥. Mr. Johnson won’t budge from that figure, but
would be willing to front the runners half of the sum and give
them a discount on Fed-Boeing goods.
During their hunt for the data, the runners may be able
to discover who the leak is at Fed-Boeing (a low-level manager
named Darien Blackwell) as well as other data that’s been sold.
Selling this information to Mr. Johnson can net them an additional
10,000¥.


QUOTE (Contacts and Adventure)
children, and this time he created a huge mess he needs cleaned
up physically, magically, and technologically. Mr. Johnson is prepared
to offer the runners 30,000¥ to eradicate all evidence of his
boss’s involvement in a potential scandal. He’s hoping he won’t
have to buy the runners’ silence as well, because he doesn’t really
have the money to give them, but if he has to, he’ll offer another
10,000¥ for it.


QUOTE (Contacts and Adventures)
especially when two are elderly and one, is an infant.
Either through legwork or speaking with the cargo, the runners
become privy to the following info: the scientist (surnamed
Cheung) worked in Evo’s biotechnology R&D, attempting to
decipher the languages and vocal apparatus of various marine
life in an attempt to better adapt metahumans for work in underwater
environments. Seeing a chance to bolster their flagging
fortunes, those who make the decisions at Shiawase authorized
the extraction of the scientist as well as his family, to ensure that
worry for their welfare would not distract him from his work.
Shiawase offers the team 30,000¥, going as high as 50,000¥ if the
runners are skilled at negotiations.
What Shiawase does not know is that Cheung was partially...


QUOTE (The Shadowrun Companion Baseline Shadowrun Payment Table (Bottom-line Fee))
Assassination: 5000
Bodyguard: 200/day
Burglary: 2000
Courier Run: 1000
Datasteal: 20% Value of Data
Distraction: 1000
Destruction: 5000
Enforcement: 1000
Encryption/Decryption: 200/per MP
Extraction: 20k
Hacking: 1000 x Host's Security Value SR3 Matrix.
Investigation: 200/day
Smuggling Run: 5000


The Baseline Payment table is designed to be tacked onto your lifestyle cost. These were the best prices I could find. Interesting.
Emperor Tippy
QUOTE (Fortune @ May 21 2008, 04:58 AM) *
Some people might be inspired to stop and think about how they are viewing the situation when they realize that pretty much every other person involved in the discussion disagrees with their stated point-of-view.

I have stopped and thought about the situation. Multiple times. I have had this debate before on other forums and in RL with multiple people. Some agree, some don't. All I know is that with the skill set and ware of a normal PC's runner *I* would not risk my life for less than 10K in profit (in fact it would prolly require a higher amount) after reasonable expenses are taken into account.

Do you dispute that the expenses are reasonable (fake SIN, safe house, rented vehicle)? If not then you are disputing the cost of risking your life.

A lot of the debate comes down to the perceived balance of power between the runners and the Johnson. I see it as the Johnson coming to the runners and asking them to perform the run, not as the runners coming to the Johnson. I see it as runners who can shrug their shoulders and walk away if they don't see the compensation as worth the risk, they can always get money if/when they need it, and a Johnson who has told some highly dangerous people about the run he has planned and who could very well sell him out, who has to decide whether the cost of having the runners eliminated is worth the risk and expense. If he was only willing to pay 50K for the run and the players shrugged and said 100K then what does he do? Higher another team to take out the runners, which would prolly cost him another 50K and has no guarantee of success? Or pay the runners 100K, which will keep them quiet and get the job done.
Emperor Tippy
QUOTE (bishop186 @ May 21 2008, 05:05 AM) *
It seems to me that if corps are all about Cost/Benefit Analysis then wouldn't the Mr. J see more benefit for the cost of someone that the fixer is more confident to get it done?

For example, if you hire an Analyst to look over your systems and the Analyst says that neither program will work completely, guaranteed, but that the more expensive one is more likely to work than the other, which are you going to pick? If you're on a low budget and it's not a mandatory system, sure, you might pick the second one but you'd probably feel more secure picking the one that your Analyst is more confident about.

Same with the Fixer. Your fixer says I've got two guys, one with a decent reputation for getting the job done for $75K and one for no Rep for $50K ($15K and $10K for a team of 5, respectively) the Mr. J is more likely to choose the $75K if he needs it to be done and has the money to spend, and the $50K if he's on a budget and doesn't care as much about it.

Seems to me that the more prestige you have (even if it's just with your fixer), the higher the jobs and more money you'll get.

You say "eventually" the Mr. J will risk it; to me that sounds like you get less jobs for less money with no rep. Rep seems to be the mechanism for getting more jobs for more money, doesn't it?

What I said. Your "rep" with your fixer matters, that rep being entirely the fact that out of X runs he has given you the Johnson has never complained/has been satisfied Y times. You don't have a "rep" in the underworld that the Johnson has any access too. Sure he might know that "Bob", "Snake", and "John" are all good, skilled, reliable, people but he doesn't know that "Mike", the guy he is highering for the run, is all of those people. He also has no way to find out. So it comes down to how much he trusts your fixer and your fixers rep.

As for the eventually thing, its exactly like you said. The Fixer might offer your team up 10 times before the Johnson bites the first time, but it doesn't really matter. One can assume that said bite has already happened in game as its the players first run. And once that run has been successfully concluded your "rep" with said fixer goes up.

My main dispute is with the assumed base price for runs, not with beginning runners making less money than experienced runners. I really like the 20% of the paydata's value on Sir_Psycho's chart, that should be several million nuyen.gif on most runs. The plans for the new tech? That new program that X was about to release?
Fuchs
Just a few basic assumtions I go by:

A run should pay so much that shadowrunning is worth the risk and covers all the costs, the lifestyle, and enough for the retirement/upgrade funds. How much that is exaclty depends on the campaign, but I consider it a pure meta-game decision - the group's fun decides.

A Johnson should not to hire runners for something that's not worth hiring runners for.

Apart from those entering the shadows for the first time, runners usually already do have a history at the start of a campaign.

How much reputation matters, and how wide-spread a reputation is, depends on the specific campaign. LA's P2.0 is one extreme, Tippy's "Only fixers know runners" the other. Most campaigns will probably fall in between, with some runners aquiring a rep, if not as runners, then as people not to mess with, after the sam "took out that Orc ganger and his troll buddy 2 weeks ago in Jenny's Bar, they wanted to mug him".
Crusher Bob
QUOTE (Emperor Tippy @ May 21 2008, 05:13 PM) *
I have stopped and thought about the situation. Multiple times. I have had this debate before on other forums and in RL with multiple people. Some agree, some don't. All I know is that with the skill set and ware of a normal PC's runner *I* would not risk my life for less than 10K in profit (in fact it would prolly require a higher amount) after reasonable expenses are taken into account.


What makes things even worse here is the Mickey Mouse quality of the timetable, intel, and support you get out of the Johnson. the 10K in profit figure should only be charged for the simplest of runs where the timetable allows plenty of time for legwork, and the whole job is not that risky. The idiotic 'you go in tonight' style runs that the book adventures tend to be are the kind where you want a bank up front, and just walk away if you don't get it. In addition, the price goes up above and beyond the risk you are running because the Johnson is incompetent enough to have let things get to this stage. This means that things are likely even worse than he knows or is telling you. For a pile if idiocy like First Run, your crew (assuming 4) had better be getting something like 200K up front and 200K on delivery, or its no deal. If it the whole job could have been done by someone with a car thiefs skills, then you can pay ~10K to a car thief and everyone will be happy.
bishop186
I could see runners going through several runs before gaining any rep. Once is luck. Twice is coincidence. Three times is getting there. By the fourth, you've gained some rep with the fixer.

Honestly, the low missions are definitely going to be offering lower pay than a 400BP character is worth, but them's the breaks when you're starting as a team of highly trained people with no reputation. It's akin to going into an industry with a 4-year degree and no experience. You get lower pay at first because you're inexperienced with the way things are run even though you have knowledge of the field.

Once you've got the experience, you get the pay. If you don't have experience, or if you've majorly screwed up somewhere, it's going to be hard to find a job that pays. The nature of the world, if you ask me. If you agree with that, I don't see how you don't get that your first several jobs are going to be for measly stipends like 5K - 10K per person.

I see where you're going with the 20%, but honestly I don't see that to be the case even in the real world. A programmer who (with a team of other programmers) makes a program that is sold for millions of dollars worth of profit isn't going to see anywhere near 20% of the profit. I don't see why a runner would. Anyone who works for someone else is probably going to get a very small cut of the profit. 20% (and in some cases even 5%) is ridiculously high.
Sir_Psycho
QUOTE (Emperor Tippy @ May 21 2008, 04:26 AM) *
My main dispute is with the assumed base price for runs, not with beginning runners making less money than experienced runners. I really like the 20% of the paydata's value on Sir_Psycho's chart, that should be several million nuyen.gif on most runs. The plans for the new tech? That new program that X was about to release?


I posted 16 different examples of canonical payments. You only select one, the only one that supports your own paradigm. As this argument is purely down to playing style, and my style is dystopian shadowrun, and yours is shadowrun-once-and-retire, I'm going to give up.
Fuchs
Canon means nothing compared to what the players&GM need/want to have fun. And that's different from group to group.
ornot
The biggest problem I see with Imperator Tippy's logic is that he assumes a seller's market.

However, canon suggests that there is a buyer's market, with many many wannabe Prime Runners. Of course, if all the characters are tweaked and munchkined to the hilt, and each individual is the absolute expert at their respective skillset (and by extension, sucks at everything else), and additionally the players have designed their characters to mesh together perfectly, it may work as the ultimate running team but it still relies on perfect planning and nothing going wrong. 400BP makes pokey characters, but they aren't the elite of the elite; challenge them with anything outside their area of expertise and they'll simply fold, unless they're well rounded, in which case their area of expertise is not as maxed out as it could be.

Consider, also, that in the 6th world life is cheap, so people are more likely to risk their lives for less material reward. You or I may want a hefty wad of cash to embark on a life of crime, but the point of SR is that you don't have a choice in the matter. For whatever reason (addiction, social problems, issues with authority etc) the runners can't/won't go work for a corp. If they do, congratulations, your character just became an NPC, make a new one.

Of course, if you decide that 100K jobs are the way you like to roll, go ahead. At least now I know who is going to run against Tippy's clone army.

Professional Shadowrunners With No Rep Beyond What Their Fixers Heard.
Fuchs
I think it needs to be stressed - important is not what canon says, or what seems logical (which are often two different things), but what the players and the GM are comfortable with.

If a player is unhappy because his samurai can't buy new stuff, or the drone rigger can't risk his drones because he cannot afford to buy new ones or the mage and adept players feel underpowered because the rest of the team are byuing delta ware cyber with the millions the made while earning 3 karma, then something is wrong in the game and needs fixing, no matter how much the canon might say the payment is right.

All that matters in the end is that everyone is having fun. That includes the GM - and for a GM, having "Logical payouts" could be crucial for having fun, beyond blancing the game even.
Crusher Bob
Then why aren't the hordes of runners doing other, more remunerative activities on their own time? If they can steal cars and make more more than running, then that's what they will be doing. Therefore, running has to pay more that the alternatives. Since the alternatives for a team of the runners skills are pretty lucrative, the pay for running has to be pretty lucrative. In addition, running is very high risk. If you really screw up stealing a car, you do 3-5 for grand theft. If you screw up running, the best you can hope for is a bullet in the head. So the reward for running has to cover the added risks of running as well.

Where the risk of the run is reduced for example, the timetable is reasonable and/or the Johnson provided plenty of intel (which the timetable allows the runners to confirm on their own, then expect the price to go lower.
samuelbeckett
Fuchs, couldn't agree more.

However, what Emperor Tippy seems to be saying is that anyone who pays less than 100k for a team of 'runners is just plain doing it wrong. That may not be the intent, but that is how the posts come across.

Now at Emperor Tippy's table, no less than 100k for a run may be the done thing. At someone else's table, it may only be 5k for the run and the runners had better appreciate the Johnson's generosity or they will never run again. To each his own, and it is rather a pointless debate to say otherwise.

The only time it isn't a pointless debate is when we are discussing how the RAW suggests a runner should be paid, as this should determine the 'canon' world's economy when it comes to deniable operations. This would be playing Shadowrun as the Devs intended, and the only sources we have for that are the sources being quoted in this thread i.e. Shadowrun Companion and the SRM. These seem to indicate that a going rate of around 30k to 50k, obviously dependent on the mission.

So can we say Emperor Tippy is wrong to expect 100k per run? No, because at his table, in his group's interpretation of the Shadowrun setting, this is the correct and logical amount for them.

Can we say Emperor Tippy is not playing as per the canon Shadowrun setting? Yup.
Shiloh
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ May 21 2008, 11:15 AM) *
I posted 16 different examples of canonical payments. You only select one, the only one that supports your own paradigm. As this argument is purely down to playing style, and my style is dystopian shadowrun, and yours is shadowrun-once-and-retire, I'm going to give up.


That section of canon has always pissed me off too. I agree with Tippy in general principle. Shadowrunning gots some serious overheads. It's seriously risky; we're not talking 50 dollars a day plus expenses gumshoe detective stuff. 100k nuyen for a job is in no wise "shadorun once and retire".

The "canon" of 5knuyen for an assassination is an absolute base cost for whacking an unguarded target who isn't aware they're under threat and hasn't any of the skills or resources to do anything to mitigate that threat. It's about what rumour says the cost would be for such a little league hit in the RL aughties. Such a job wouldn't have a timescale (maybe sometime in the next 12 months), there would be no prescription by the "J" on the manner or place of death. Making it look like an accident would cost more. The same sanction against a protected target would add a factor. A shorter timescale would add yet more. The possibility of elements other than The Law taking action afterwards would add further cost.

Starting runners accept 1k runs couriering things across the city. Most of the time such runs are cake walks, and the Johnson is paying peanuts to get monkeys but *adventures* that actually get played out are the runs where the courier runs go bad and the J has hosed the job, either by making an error, or just underestimating something, or by trying to do things on the cheap. Couriering something hot and live and desirable through a combat zone is going to pay *way* more.

The low priced runs are the ones that pay for the Runners' lifestyles, and they shouldn't hit the gaming table unless something goes wrong. If you want to run a couple of "no drama" runs to get a feel for what the team usually do in such runs and then start "in media res" where it's gone all pear-shaped, that'd make sense.
Fortune
I would like to note that my earlier comment had nothing to do with money, but was concerning E.T.'s oulook on Reputation.

As to money, every job is different, and those 'big score' runs don't always come along every month. Sometimes even top-notch professionals need to stoop to doing a milk run or three to pay the bills.
Fuchs
QUOTE (Fortune @ May 21 2008, 03:48 PM) *
I would like to note that my earlier comment had nothing to do with money, but was concerning E.T.'s oulook on Reputation.

As to money, every job is different, and those 'big score' runs don't always come along every month. Sometimes even top-notch professionals need to stoop to doing a milk run or three to pay the bills.


Or boost a few cars. But in either case there's the question if such stuff will be played out at all.
Deimos Masque
Wow, surprised on how much conversation this suddenly brought. First want to thank everyone for the interesting conversation going on here.

When I started my current game, I had the team be a bit more experienced than the average starting characters. I had them build on 500 BP and then gave them "30 Total Karma" for purposes of starting Reputation. The idea was that they generally worked as couriers and smugglers, smuggling things out of Manhattan and into Manhattan.

The first game session was to be their first big job. I paid them 50k after negotiations. Since then I had been having trouble determining good starting points for it all.

I think that basing it on reputation is definitely a good way to go as is some of the other ideas here. Basically it seems to make perfect sense that the reputation of the runner team = better pay outs. However the higher rep means the team also gets more dangerous runs where more unexpected things can happen. The reputation of the team would actually represent to the potential employer that the team can handle the situation if things go bad.

Granted, not every corp Johnson is going to know the rep of a Shadowrun team, that's why they go through intermediaries and find out "who's the best for the job." This would be based on the rep of the team. If word doesn't get around and the team doesn't get known for the good work they do (the bad work being represented with Notoriety not Street Cred) then they aren't going to get the better paying jobs.

Atleast that's how I see it. Your mileage may vary.
ArkonC
The GM needs to make sure he gives a karma boost with that too, giving the tech based characters 100K and the magic based ones 4 karma is asking for unhappy players...
"He got Synthcardium 3 and Reakt, I got 4 out of 6 karma for my magic increase..." Just screams unfair...
So if you do up the pay scale for runners, you need to up the karma scale and things will get high powered very fast...
Sir_Psycho
QUOTE (Shiloh)
100k nuyen for a job is in no wise "shadorun once and retire".


Several mil is.

Personally, I run pretty paranoid, gritty shadowrun, and I strip pistols, spray C-squared, Change ID's and wear disguises, but it's just a tough fact of life that until you've got a bit of a rep, you can't afford to take the most excessive of the measures yet.
Shiloh
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ May 21 2008, 03:29 PM) *
QUOTE (Shiloh)

100k nuyen for a job is in no wise "shadorun once and retire".

Several mil is.


Not if you have to set up half a dozen good fake IDs each with licences, disguises and the rest, burn rating 6 commlinks and drones by the dozen, abandon or destroy expensive gear that you didn't dare steal for fear of raising your profile too high and get a genewipe afterwards (we're talking for the team, here).

And we weren't talking about a big score like that, we were talking about potential "worthwhile run". At 100k, yoru runners would still have to snaffle several tens of these, plus expenses, and assuming that the "bread-and-butter" runs that don't hit the gaming table keep their lifestyles ticking over.

Fortune
Actually, Emperor Tippy mentioned the figure first.

QUOTE (E.T.)
I really like the 20% of the paydata's value on Sir_Psycho's chart, that should be several million on most runs.


ArkonC
QUOTE (Fortune @ May 22 2008, 12:18 PM) *
Actually, Emperor Tippy mentioned the figure first.

Indeed, according to his pay scale, 100K was for beginning runners, with more experienced ones pulling down 200K, 500K and several mil jobs...
Fuchs
I do have some trouble balancing the "logical basic security measures" (burning fake SINs and commlinks, maybe even gear after a run) and the supposed payout. Especially fake sins worth a damn (according to agem mechanics) are so expensive that the proposed payouts often make a plan involving a fake sin too expensive for a team.

That simply does not add up - either runners are not supposed to change sins per run, or the payout has to be bigger.
Shiloh
QUOTE (Fortune @ May 22 2008, 11:18 AM) *
QUOTE (ET)

I really like the 20% of the paydata's value on Sir_Psycho's chart, that should be several million on most runs.

Actually, Emperor Tippy mentioned the figure first.

I read that as the *paydata* should be worth several million to the J. Though I do agree that 20% is too high on most runs.
QUOTE (arkonc)
Indeed, according to his pay scale, 100K was for beginning runners, with more experienced ones pulling down 200K, 500K and several mil jobs...

So the ones pulling down the big money are *experienced* and have run *more than once*, so there's no "run once then retire" mentality. Neh?

Sure the big jobs net (i.e. after expenses) you several months, maybe a year of luxury lifestyle, but they could take months to set up and further months for the heat to die down/geneclean. "Getting out" takes a lump sum of 10 mill for "luxury forever", plus whatever other safeguards you want to purchase. And it's not always possible to retire. People have things to say about it.

You want something done reliably and deniably, that carries lethal risks you're going to have to pay more than 5k.
ArkonC
QUOTE (Shiloh @ May 22 2008, 12:55 PM) *
So the ones pulling down the big money are *experienced* and have run *more than once*, so there's no "run once then retire" mentality. Neh?

You don't consider 100K for your first run big money?
QUOTE (Shiloh @ May 22 2008, 12:55 PM) *
Sure the big jobs net (i.e. after expenses) you several months, maybe a year of luxury lifestyle, but they could take months to set up and further months for the heat to die down/geneclean. "Getting out" takes a lump sum of 10 mill for "luxury forever", plus whatever other safeguards you want to purchase. And it's not always possible to retire. People have things to say about it.

If you're pulling down .2M min every run, retirement isn't far around the corner, according to Tippy's pay scale, experienced runners earn this minimum, so a bread and butter run is another .2 mil...
And next week? Another .2 mil...
And the week after that? ...
Seems like retirement is actually a reasonable option, instead of the dream it is supposed to be...
QUOTE (Shiloh @ May 22 2008, 12:55 PM) *
You want something done reliably and deniably, that carries lethal risks you're going to have to pay more than 5k.

Quote me where I said wetwork any job pays 5K...
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