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Mäx
In Corporate Enclaves it say on page 85
QUOTE
in the interests of public safety, adults
may bear any form of bladed weapon so long as it is not
concealed (this includes cyberimplant weapons).


Does that really mean that my character can walk trought central Tokyo with a claymore trapped in his back and nobody bothering him.
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Mäx @ May 24 2008, 03:07 PM) *
Does that really mean that my character can walk trought central Tokyo with a claymore trapped in his back and nobody bothering him.


Well, you may get a few people ask where the rest of your cosplay costume is.
Backgammon
Yes an no.

The character can't get arrested for it, but if he looks suspicious in any way (i.e. giant claymore stuck on your back), the authorities are liable to follow him around, harass him, etc.

Most people, if they carry anything at all, will be short swords or traditionnal japanese blades. As long as you fit in, carrying a blade will not be a problem.
Ancient History
If your troll wants to wander downtown with a nodachi to go clubbing, it's all good, but Highlander-style hide-it-in-the-trenchcoat is not. Corporate law can be very different on the subject, so sometimes they ask customers to check their blades when they enter Mitsuhama-mart or whatnot.

This is significantly different than in Seattle, where firearms and body armor are much more commonplace.
CanRay
Much different from Seattle. The Coroner finds out you weren't wearing even armoured clothing when you got shot, he puts down "Suicide" as the cause of death. nyahnyah.gif

I still have to go through Corporate Enclaves (Too much fun with Arsenal!), but wouldn't a Troll in Downtown Neo-Tokio going to get harassed for "Walking While Meta" anyways?
Mäx
QUOTE (Ancient History @ May 25 2008, 12:04 AM) *
If your troll wants to wander downtown with a nodachi to go clubbing, it's all good, but Highlander-style hide-it-in-the-trenchcoat is not. Corporate law can be very different on the subject, so sometimes they ask customers to check their blades when they enter Mitsuhama-mart or whatnot.


Cool, it just seemed little crazy to that in the interest of public safety people can carry any bladed weapon they want.

Oh and thaks to everyone for quick reaplies.
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (CanRay @ May 25 2008, 12:44 PM) *
Much different from Seattle. The Coroner finds out you weren't wearing even armoured clothing when you got shot, he puts down "Suicide" as the cause of death. nyahnyah.gif

I still have to go through Corporate Enclaves (Too much fun with Arsenal!), but wouldn't a Troll in Downtown Neo-Tokio going to get harassed for "Walking While Meta" anyways?

Yep. Less so in 2070 when the metas are allowed to live in Japan without being dropped in their own equivalent of Battle Royale, but they still don't like them metas.

QUOTE (Mäx @ May 25 2008, 01:43 PM) *
Cool, it just seemed little crazy to that in the interest of public safety people can carry any bladed weapon they want.

Oh and thaks to everyone for quick reaplies.

Consider that most public security groups will be okayed to carry firearms. The increased difficulty in apprehending criminals is not all that significant and allowing citizens to go armed will allow them to defend themselves better (criminals don't follow laws, y'see) and, at the very least, it's reassuring. It's also a cultural heritage thing, the Japanese like their swords.

Hell, the world likes Japans swords. I prefer swords made of better steel, but single-edged blades are cool.
Snow_Fox
Right you can carry a sword openly but if the locals don't like your look they might not want to deal with you:
"Sorry Oni san but I cannot help you we are closing for lunch now."
and
they just might call the polcie to politely ask what you're doing? A sword in your belt is not going to help much when that patrolman's buddy has an SMG leveled at you.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ May 25 2008, 07:04 AM) *
Hell, the world likes Japans swords. I prefer swords made of better steel, but single-edged blades are cool.

You seem to imply that a Katana blade is inferior quality...

I'm not particularly fond of the weapons, but they are the most durable & sharp blades in the world. You simply do not get a higher quality blade than the Japanese Samurai sword. Of course, I am speaking of the actual weapons, not the mass-produced crap anyone can have.
Jaid
oh great, not one of these again... WotC flashbacks occuring now...

(as i understand it, the reason the swords are so carefully made is because the raw materials suck so bad. the swords themselves are good quality, but the materials they are made from? not so much).
Hatspur
So would you say that the authorities in Neo-Tokyo would bat an eye at a rapier or cavalry saber strapped to my belt? Is it just Japanese style blades that evade scrutiny? I understand the concealment, but a Nodachi and a Claymore have similar purposes and the differences lie in blade style and (obviously) weight.
hobgoblin
i recall reading that a specialist sword maker put a european style sword made with modern techniques thru the same test thats traditionally used to test japanese ones. iirc, the test showed that european ones could perform it just as well.
Faelan
Yet another example of Katana fever. Check the articles on this site for direct reference to comparisons between modern makers http://swordforum.com/ or for additional discussion amongst practitioner of western sword forms (which seem remarkably unbiased compared to discussions I have seen from the other side) http://www.thearma.org, the second site includes rather useful references to detailed books on the subject matter also. Most of the myth comes from specialist historians, who have no clue what they are talking about when it comes to metallurgy, sword making, or practical application of the tools.
Jackstand
QUOTE (Hatspur @ May 25 2008, 12:50 PM) *
So would you say that the authorities in Neo-Tokyo would bat an eye at a rapier or cavalry saber strapped to my belt? Is it just Japanese style blades that evade scrutiny? I understand the concealment, but a Nodachi and a Claymore have similar purposes and the differences lie in blade style and (obviously) weight.


I would expect that it's more a matter of how you're dressed and how you're acting, and, of course, whether or not you're human and japanese which would make more of a difference as to whether you're hassled than what sort of blade you have.
hobgoblin
and if you wearing a kimono the sword could very well be part of the dress...

kinda like how you cant carry a knife in public here in norway unless its part of the national costume.
Shrike30
It's my understanding that the great number of folds involved in traditional Katana-type blade creation were there to work out impurities in the metal, and to work in carbon.

High-purity, high-carbon steel isn't hard to get these days.
Snow_Fox
There's also use. Samurai swords have an aura about them for their sharpness and steel quality. the mystique of the great swordsman BUT for use and style european swords are more effective.

Just fencing style, in kendo a fighter stands with his arms fully extended and has to pump to strike. A western swordsman keeps his arms bent, so it can thrust forward. In Japan a few years ago they tried a tesat to show the supiriority of the asian sword style. Each time the european style swordsman won because of the basic stance. The Japanese fencer never go of a strike. Each time as he pumped to strike, the european thrust into his arms/torso.
hyzmarca
There is a video of something that here.

It isn't just the style in this case, its the training. Rigidly-defined sport combat doesn't really trains a person to excel in that particular sport but doesn't really prepare one to face techniques which don't conform to the rules of the sport. In the above video it is very obvious that the kendoka was in way over his head. He just wasn't prepared to deal with aggressive thrusting.

The error here isn't necessarily in the style but in his frame of mind and his footwork, particularly his frame of mind. You can see that he isn't at all prepared to deal with the aggressiveness of the fencer and ineffectually attempts to retreat when the fencer charges. Retreat was the absolutely worst thing he could do in that situation. A far better option would have been to void the thrust be stepping to the side and toward the fencer. Due to the fencer's strong commitment to the thrust he would have been unable to defend against a counterattack if the kendoka has simply voided the thrust by sidesteping.

When fighting with words in real life, the correct footwork and body position is most important because that's what keeps you alive. The kendoka in the video simply didn't have the foundation of footwork required to defend against a fast thrusting blade.

The fencer wasn't really prepared to deal with a slicing weapon, either, and left his head and shoulders extremely vulnerable. It was only his aggressiveness and the kendoka's retreat in response to that aggressiveness that saved him from a counterstrike to his head.
Muspellsheimr
Also, European blades are designed for power, and require a good deal of strength. Japanese blades are designed for finesse & speed, and are effective regardless of the user's strength.

A trained Japanese swordsman fighting with a Katana can do an equal amount of damage as that of a European swordsman fighting with a broadsword. The main difference is the broadsword requires a good amount of strength behind the swing to equal what a simple swing form a Katana is capable of. There is a reason in SR4 that the Katana has -1AP and the Sword does not - a Katana's blade when finished is sharpened to the molecular level. What the books don't represent is this should also increase the blade's damage.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ May 26 2008, 12:47 AM) *
Also, European blades are designed for power, and require a good deal of strength. Japanese blades are designed for finesse & speed, and are effective regardless of the user's strength.

Huh?

QUOTE
A trained Japanese swordsman fighting with a Katana can do an equal amount of damage as that of a European swordsman fighting with a broadsword. The main difference is the broadsword requires a good amount of strength behind the swing to equal what a simple swing form a Katana is capable of.

What?

QUOTE
There is a reason in SR4 that the Katana has -1AP and the Sword does not - a Katana's blade when finished is sharpened to the molecular level. What the books don't represent is this should also increase the blade's damage.

Molecular?

ludomastro
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ May 26 2008, 12:47 AM) *
Also, European blades are designed for power, and require a good deal of strength. Japanese blades are designed for finesse & speed, and are effective regardless of the user's strength.

A trained Japanese swordsman fighting with a Katana can do an equal amount of damage as that of a European swordsman fighting with a broadsword. The main difference is the broadsword requires a good amount of strength behind the swing to equal what a simple swing form a Katana is capable of. There is a reason in SR4 that the Katana has -1AP and the Sword does not - a Katana's blade when finished is sharpened to the molecular level. What the books don't represent is this should also increase the blade's damage.


Uh ... no.


Emphasis mine.
hyzmarca
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olP_kwsEZ6w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ema3lkqwZlY...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FWXnK5UyRI...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu4Dr3B3Rg4...feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyQXLXRFFbg...feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlGIHSeG260...feature=related

These videos pretty much give you a good idea of the attitudes of police and citizens about open carry. On occasion, someone who doesn't listen to enough Conservative Talk Radio will get scared and call the police demanding that they do something, but this will just lead to a funny conversation to police who are annoyed at the caller rather than you, unless you're just a total jackass about it.


The big issue is social attitudes rather than the practicality of open carry. If you allow open carry you foster an enviroment in which citizens interact with the government and the police as equals and take their rights and duties seriously. If you disallow you, you create a situation where the citizens are either subservient to government officials and police or are openly antagonistic to them.

With Neo-Tokyo's open carry law in regard's to blade, they are very much promoting a return to the Samurai ethos -or a highly romanticized version of it. The idea is of the citizen-samurai is very favorable to the corporations as it produces both a sense of duty and responsibility in the citizens who choose to openly carry and serves as a free advertisement that encourage others to carry as well. This in turn means greater loyalty, less anti-social behavior, and more people reporting anti-social behavior; it will also be much more difficult for outside powers and criminal organizations to intimidate citizens or spread terror.
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ May 25 2008, 06:06 PM) *
You seem to imply that a Katana blade is inferior quality...

I'm not particularly fond of the weapons, but they are the most durable & sharp blades in the world. You simply do not get a higher quality blade than the Japanese Samurai sword. Of course, I am speaking of the actual weapons, not the mass-produced crap anyone can have.

Historically Japanese steel was crap. It only needed to be crap, they had too little iron for making suits of armour out of it. The blade design is a work of genius, but it's a design that compensates - in many ways - for the failings of the material from which it is made.

Someone mentioned the folding thing; I am of the understand that they were attempting to stretch steel (which was expensive to make for them) with iron.

QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ May 26 2008, 05:47 AM) *
Also, European blades are designed for power, and require a good deal of strength. Japanese blades are designed for finesse & speed, and are effective regardless of the user's strength.

Wapanese lies. Rapier, dude - it epitomises the finesse style of combat. And, in actual fact, Sword and Board combats between talented practitioners were generally fast paced finesse affairs. A lot of western sword designs actually lightened the blade in a way that sacrificed the minimum of the blades strength, by thinning the central portion of the blade. This is because the blades had to be balanced for thrusts (most efficient way to penetrate armour), where a heavier blade is worse because your arm is entirely outstretched and at its weakest.

Note that Japanese swordsmanship does not include many thrusts.
Backgammon
edit: removed snippy comment about katanophiles.
Snow_Fox
Beyond the fact the katana armed fencer wasn't prepared for the agressive western fencer, the western swords use a thrust, which the katana, in a sweeping stroke would have tropuble evading. A good thrust should be able to disengage under the parry of the katana.

Do not be so sure about a western style fencer not being able to block. Sure a fencer with a foil if not use to defending from a cut but someone with a sabre is.

Most modern sabrists use the very blocky "Hungarian" style introduced in the 1956 Olympics. They seem to forget their points and would give the japanese swordsman more of a chance but get a man with a sabre, prefering the "Italian" style, introduced in the 1924 Olympics, where it is held point forward like a foil but the smwordsman is still use to parrying cuts and the asian style is toast.

Don't get me wrong. The katana, a true one and not mass produced tourist stuff, is a beautiful , elegant weapon capable of doing great harm and imortalized in Japanese art and litterature, but in a practical terms it doesn't stand up. Part of the mythology came about because that was all they had for weapons. After the unification of Japan under the Tokugawa shogunate around 1603, They did away with guns. On the battlefield the Samurai were very upset how a commoner with a musket could down the lfower of nobility. so instead of adapting tactics as the europeans did, they devolved moving their military back a step so they coul have Samurai still as the masters of the fierld for another 2050 years. In that period swords became mythologisted while in the west firearms entered myth, The kentucky Rifle, the Brown Bess, Colt 'peacemaker' or Winchester rifle spring to mind.

To go back on topic, any one with ablade is going to get a funny look, legal or not you know the person is carrying and it makes you more careful around them. An oxidental blade might be legal but it is still alien and in xenophobic Tokyo it is going to make the people even more on edge. it's different and dangerous and not japanese.
CanRay
To sum up what I think a lot of people are saying...

One: Japanese Iron is not so good, which is why they were masters of Metalurgy for many years before Europeans figured it out. Neccessity is the Mother of Invention, after all. But, also, there was a lot of spiritualism that went into Japanese sword making, and that will give an advantage as well (Even if you don't believe in spirits of a sword, the swordman does, and it's a psycological advantage if nothing else.).

Two: "Legal" and "Socially Accepted" are two major different things. It's legal to walk around Calgary, Alberta, Canada with a unconcealed pistol at certain times of the year (Possibly all year, I'm not sure), but it's still not a really good idea. The guy at the Corner Store is likely to think you're going to try and hold him up, Cowboy outfit or not. So, Japanese weapons are somewhat OK (You are, after all, showing honour to your culture!), but show up with a Epee, and you're not likely to be served at the Noodle Stand.
Snow_Fox
Yup. in 2 paragraphs you wonderfully summed up what the rest of us did in a page.
CanRay
*Pumps Fist* YES! Still got it! biggrin.gif
imperialus
Even early on in European sword development some of the Saxon and other Germanic forging styles used a technique called pattern welding that had a very similar effect as the Japanese folding. Basically what they would do is take alternating pieces of high and low carbon steel and twist them together to create a weapon that combined the durability and flexibility of a low carbon steel but had enough high carbon steel to hold an excellent edge. Beowulf references this when they mention Beowulf's sword as being of "The thistle (or was it thorn?) pattern".

Later swords did away with the twisting because around the 13th century metal working techniques advanced to the point that they were able to control the carbon content of a single piece of steel to the point that they didn't need to combine low and high carbon steel and could create a sword with high carbon edges around a more flexible low carbon core out of a single piece.

One reason that katana's have achieved such status is because while in European society a sword was seen as an important status symbol and very valuable they were still common enough that people were typically buried with them when they died. The most valuable piece of gear owned by a knight was typically his horse, followed by his armour, the sword came in a distant third. That's why there are so few surviving Saxon swords for example, they were buried in bogs and what not when their owner died. In Japan on the other hand swords were an order of magnitude rarer and more valuable. They were typically handed down from generation and in many cases came to represent the family that possessed them. You see some of the later suits of European armour attaining similar mythology (Henry the VIII's suit for example) but it's tough to pass down a suit of armour since it was typically custom fitted to the individual.
Snow_Fox
that and after around 1600 a sword was a status symbol. From then until the meiji restoration only samurai were allowed to wear a sword so it was a way to tell the haves from the have nots at a glance.
hobgoblin
also, the status of the katana in japan is not the same as it has in usa and europe.

its at times funny to think about what status most things japanese have in those places when one look at what of those are based on chinese developments. their system if writing is chinese. the ninja where originally chinese spies as the japanese found the job dishonorable. hell, i even think japanese martial arts are based of chinese kung fu.
Heath Robinson
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ May 27 2008, 12:46 AM) *
also, the status of the katana in japan is not the same as it has in usa and europe.

its at times funny to think about what status most things japanese have in those places when one look at what of those are based on chinese developments. their system if writing is chinese. the ninja where originally chinese spies as the japanese found the job dishonorable. hell, i even think japanese martial arts are based of chinese kung fu.

Ninja were Okinawan assassins, that is why they mostly used farm tools (yep, all that kewl ninja gear is agricultural equipment) because the Japanese did not allow Okinawans to carry weaponry.
Hatspur
I have fenced Saber for 10 years (the USFA, not the SCA) which I consider a sport, not a martial art. But I can tell you for a fact that when I face off against some guy with a Katana, parrying his attacks will be the last thing on my mind. You see, most experienced fencers do not like to rely on parrys because they are incredibly unreliable. In this case for different reasons. Normally, your opponent is just as fast as you are if not faster (especially if the little prick is younger and smaller). So reacting to him is a losing game unless you know for a fact where his attack is going. With a Katana, the strike is coming down hard enough that the normally ineffective parry is nearly useless against a larger blade with the strength of both arms behind it. Furthermore, an individual trained in actual swordsmanship with a Katana and not Kendo probably has experience in hand to hand combat. Guessing that, I would never parry an attack from a Katana unless I was certain I could get the attacker to run on to the blade before he breaks my neck.

My preffered form of defense against an attacker with a katana is to take advantage of the poor range and distance he has against me (my one arm can reach further than both of his arms) and just stab at his forearms until he loses all the strength necessary to wield the sword effectively.

The reason European style swordsmen look like their head is wide open is entirely intentional. We know that the most common convenient target is the head, and we like to leave that open. If you take the bait, and we back up, you miss and overextend yourself in a most convenient fashion that allows us to ram whatever style blade we're using through your arm or cut your radial artery.

Fencing is about deception. Fencers have no concept of honor and we are willing to use whatever means at our disposal to beat the opponent as swiftly and as painfully as possible. We are liars and deceivers who enjoy beating our opponent mentally through humiliation or confusion and we are taught to use all of your physical weaknesses against you. And remember, we're more likely to shoot you than to stab you if given the option.
Daddy's Little Ninja
Many martial arts weapons were agricultural tools peasants used against invaders. Things liek nun-chucks were developed from wheat threshers. I heard somewhere the yo-yo was a Philipino weapon.

The original ninjas? That is up for grabs. There are two provences in central Japan where they were supposed to be from. All mystic BS aside they were mercinary scouts. These mercinaries were often in the pay of the Tokugawas and ninja seem to disappear from real histories after the formation of the Tokugawa Shogunate.

More than all this, as someone already pointed out the right to hold a sword after 1600 meant you were samurai, a noble. Pictures from the period show that Samurai armor and swords were pretty well set by around 1000-1100 AD. although many noble houses were made/destroyed in the warring states period, the idea is still that a noble sword meant maybe your house is centuries old. Imagine western culture if the men on the field at Gettysburg were wearing the same style armor and weapons and tactics as when Columbus landed in america and William the conquorer fought at Hastings. That shows how deeply the katana was set into the Japanese mind. (thought to be fair the samurai were more archers than swordsmen before the Kamikaze.
imperialus
Completely off topic but an interesting bit of trivia anyhow.

According to a friend of mine (with far more money that me) who collects weapons, Katana's are actually some of the least valuable pieces you can own. Unless it's linked to a specific sword smith they're actually considered to be the mark of an inexperienced collector precisely because so many have survived. All bets are off if the sword was made by someone famous though. You can usually get a 15th or 16th ca katana for something in the neighborhood of 1000 US. By contrast his Civil War era Confederate cavalry saber is worth over 25K because it was actually manufactured by the Confederacy and not a French import. Saxon swords are so rare that it's illegal to export them out of England, and even renaissance era swords will often times reach five figures.
Adarael
Just as a note on sword types before things get too far afield... I'll make a couple of points:

1) Pound for pound, an 'average' broadsword from back in the day would have been far superior to an 'average' katana.
2) At the high end of quality workmanship, the superiority of western blades was much less pronounced, owing to the fact that the differences were less pronounced - i.e. higher quality base material, more time and effort invested, etc.
3) Any katana created with modern steel and modern processes will be every bit as effective as a broadsword created with modern materials and processes, and vice versa, so long as they are of equivalent weight and length. The mystique of the ancient blade folded again and again is wonderful, but that process was rendered obsolete by high grade steel and modern forges.
4) Never, ever mistake a kendoka for a swordsman, any more than you'd mistake a foil-fencer with a swordsman. They are very different things. If a guy knows how to fight with a sword, you can bet he'll be dangerous with any kind of sword.
5) Samurai almost never fought with their swords anyway, unless it was a duel or something. The sword was their handgun. Archery, yari and naginata ruled the day, most times.
PBTHHHHT
QUOTE (Heath Robinson @ May 27 2008, 06:42 AM) *
Ninja were Okinawan assassins, that is why they mostly used farm tools (yep, all that kewl ninja gear is agricultural equipment) because the Japanese did not allow Okinawans to carry weaponry.


Uh... actually from the teachings of the Okinawan karate, it is believed to be originated from Chinese emissaries during the Tang Dynasty who taught martial arts to the folks of Okinawa. From there, it went on to Japan. One point of debate was that the original meaning of karate, that was meaning 'tang' hand, but during the turn of the century when Japan was undergoing it's heavy nationalism, it was decided to have it mean 'open' hand because they didn't want to show the Chinese influence on karate. And as DLN has said, the development of the weapons from farm implements because it was a necessity. In addition, when the Japanese took over, they banned weapons from the native population such as swords. So, you're right about the reasons Heath, but ninjas? Uh, not really.

Ok, I have more of an Okinawan slant on the background mainly because I'm learning Okinawan karate.
Ancient History
Rule 42: Everything came from somewhere else.
Snow_Fox
The main Japanese marital art was jujitsu that may have generated spontaneously may have been imported from china. I suspect import because the Japanese were not conquored until 1945 so they never had to develop are weaponless form and peasant up risings were virtually unknown.

Jujitsu split into the modern forms of Judo(throwing and choking) and Aikido (joint locks) around 1860. (and yes that is a massive oversimplification since there are cross overs at higher levels)
CanRay
The Irish marshal art was brought over when North America found out about Whiskey.

That's all I got.
PBTHHHHT
I wonder if it was influenced from the chinese wrestling jiao li events that was practiced as a public sport in some ways and travelers from Japan would have seen it and be inspired to form their own arts including jujitsu and the sport sumo. The chinese wrestling, jiao li, started back in the BC time period, by the way.
ludomastro
And don't forget pankration (Greek martial art) that was used in the Olympic games around 650 BC.

Some believe that it was influenced by eastern arts while other believe it influenced the eastern arts.
Deimos Masque
So not to take us off topic any more than we already are but: Besides Corporate Enclave where's some good sources of material for Neo-Tokyo and the Japanese Imperial State in general?
Backgammon
Shadows of Asia
Deimos Masque
Ah yes, that would make sense now wouldn't it. That's a 3rd Edition book right?
Mäx
QUOTE (Deimos Masque @ May 28 2008, 04:43 PM) *
Ah yes, that would make sense now wouldn't it. That's a 3rd Edition book right?


yes.
SprainOgre
QUOTE (CanRay @ May 27 2008, 09:14 PM) *
The Irish marshal art was brought over when North America found out about Whiskey.

That's all I got.

Ah, you mean the ancient art of fhuck-yoo? Involves a lot of eye gouging and groin shots?
KarmaInferno
I would think that quality control would be the larger issue in arms manufactured by bears.

Wait, what?



-karma
SprainOgre
Nah, Bear made means quality in most places in the world. biggrin.gif
Wounded Ronin
Well, I just read through this thread. First, LOL at the asiaphiles. I remember I had that phase as well when I was 14. But now that I'm older I realize that the reason the Katana is better than the Sword in SR3 is because the Katana is forged with the tears of midwestern auto workers.

Anyway, I'm not a fencer, but I enjoy boxing. When I read about western fencing vs. cutting with a Japanese sword, I can understand how poking with a sword will generally "beat" cutting to the punch, just like how in boxing a jab would generally be able to beat a cross to the punch.

But if we're not point sparring but instead boxing continously, it's at least possible that the man who gets jabbed in the face could still continue a swingy hammerfist type motion and paste the person who threw the jab. Hammerfists aren't considered good form or anything but just because you catch someone with a jab it doesn't mean he automatically fails to hit you half a second later, since the real world doesn't work like Tekken.

So I'd extrapolate that even if you stabbed someone with the tip of a sword that wouldn't necessarily prevent him from simultaneously or almost simultaneously swinging his sword down into you. Both fighters might die, but it seems fallacious that whomever gets the first poke would not have to worry about a big downward cut at this head with lots of weight behind it.

If I continue extrapolating from my boxing experience, the following question comes to mind. Let's say that I am boxing with an opponent in a strange contest where I am only allowed to throw hammerfists and hooks, and my opponent is only allowed to throw jabs. Will I automatically lose this contest? No. I would initially be at a disadvantage, but I'd at least have the chance to slip the jab and counter with a hook to the body, or to land a hard hook to the head with a sudden attack on an angle. I am not sure if the analogy holds up with blades, but with boxing the hook-and-hammerfist man wouldn't necessarily be screwed; it would come down to the skills and attributes of the individual fighter.

I used to have a friend and we sparred full contact a lot over the past 2 years. My style tended initially to be more about straights (jabs and crosses) and he used hooks and uppercuts more frequently. There was a time when he could often surprise me and get past my jabs by suddenly stepping forward at an angle and throwing a quick left hook. It was all in the timing, really, and initially I was totally shocked about how he could suddenly get close and paste me even though I myself was also circling and sometimes keeping him at bay with jabs. I began to copy that tactic and lo and behold, I eventually was able to surprise him in the same way with a quick step forward with the front leg and a jaunty left hook. He said, "Damn, I shouldn't have showed you that!". smile.gif

So my point is that if we look at it in theory or in principle the jab man should theoretically have better reach and thus always pop the hook man, but if the hook man knows how to time things and has got the experience he has the ability to surprise the jab man with a well-executed left hook. Based on this personal experience in the context of boxing I figure that someone who swings a cutting type blade, if he has got a sense of timing and the right experience, might very well be able to suprise someone who is all about maintaining distance and doing poke poke poke, especially if the fighting is continuous and isn't point fighting that gets stopped after each hit.
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