what?

What what?

What what?

Oops

its just that "It isn't a matter of being a weapon which is magical, but of being a magical weapon." didn't make any sense.

ok. so i looked it up. BBB, pg 186, Astra Barriers:
"...a dual being in an elevator that passes through a ward on its way up. In this case, make the same Opposed Test described above (Magic + Charisma vs. barrier's Force x2). If the barrier wins, however, the item or entity still breaks through but is automatically disrupted...Disrupted spirits are sent back to the spirit's metaplane, whereas disrupted characters are knocked unconscious."

so if you have a dual-natured bullet, which creates a barrier on both the physical and the astral plane, and it is forced through a manifesting spirit, and it wins vs. the spirit's force, the spirit would be disrupted.

now, perhaps this is a stretch of the rules, but it seems like a straightforward application to me. its not going to be as easy as slotting a go-ganger with a .50 bullet, nor will it be as effective as an adept or a mage going toe-to-toe with the spirit, but its a possibility.

You could have a sword which is a power focus, and it is, then, still a weapon, and it is magical, but it's not a magical weapon.

i guess that depends on how hard you hit someone with it.

Jackstand's point is that a Power Focus could be made in the form of a club, and may even do damage as a club if you were to hit someone with it. That still would not make it a Weapon Focus though.

right...i'm having problems understanding what that has to do with the discussion at hand, though. we're not talking about weapon foci, we're talking about means and goods available to mundanes for creating makeshift ways of disrupting spirits.

a magic bullet, in theory, does not kill by means of focusing ambient mana into a bolt of energy by means of an awakened character's will. it works by the basic principles by which magic operates (ie: if you force an astral barrier through a spirit, either the barrier breaks or the spirit does).

this of course is assuming that dual-natured inanimate objects function like an astral barrier (i honestly don't know if they do or not).

It has everything to do with it. It is saying, quite specifically, that although a weapon may be magical, that does not necisarily mean it is a Magic Weapon. Having a Dual-Natured bullet does not allow it to bypass Immunity to Normal Weapons. Similarly, having a non-Weapon Foci enchantment on it will make it magical, but not a Magic Weapon, and as such it still would be unable to bypass ItNW. How it interacts with a Mana Barrier is completely unrelated to how it will affect spirits.

so even though the physical representation of the bullet isn't actualy doing any damage, but it is in fact the astral portion of the object, its still considered a 'normal weapon'?

*rolls eyes* well i guess it was a good attempt. back to the dual-natured lasers and FAB-sprayers i guess.

A Dual-Natured creature punching a Materialized spirit uses Unarmed Combat, and it's attacks are subject to Immunity to Normal Weapons. A Dual-Natured creature 'punching' a spirit's Astral Form uses Astral Combat, and it's attacks are not subject to Immunity to Normal Weapons.

With a Firearm, you are using your associated firearm skill, and the bullet is striking as such, and so is subject to Immunity to Normal Weapons. The bullet is incapable of using Astral Combat to bypass the Immunity. If you are capable of Astral Combat, you could possibly use a Dual-Natured gun/bullet for a ranged astral attack, but such is not covered by RAW and would be a GM ruling.

This is meant to be funny but I may sound like an ass. If i where to pick up a mage or a ghoul and smack a spirit with it I would do damage right? So if that is the case i then get creative and make a junk yard catapult and then fire the mage or what ever at the pesky spirit. Now we would not be using my Str we would be using the catapults Str. right? Then we go to the circus for a grand old time and we see a dwarf shot of a cannon. Now we start shooting the mage or the ghoul or what ever we have lying around that dual natured at the spirit so then we would be shooting a cannon at the spirit and it is no way a normal weapon right?

You say that like lasers and spray guns aren't super cool. *smirk*

But Crizh said on the last page that there is a rule in Street Magic that states possessed objects deal their full damage to spirits. While I can't find it at the moment (just a quick 3 minute look), I also recall finally finding such a rule, because I wanted to give one of my (mundane) players a demon possessed sword.

And it's not like we don't have a good list so far, of how mundanes deal with spirits:

High Damage, High AP
Buying spirit services
Spirit Pacts
Taking a free spirit as a high loyalty contact
Magical Compounds (or whatever their called)
(Possibly) Possessed bullets
Taking the Banishing skill, for attacks of will
Dual natured lasers
Heck, lasers (half armor, after all)
Sprayers
Alergies (heck, bugs are severely alergic to bug spray)

And I'm sure I missed some. Not a bad list, for not being magical.

Or hey, do the warding trick. Ward your van or truck, and just run into the dang spirit.

Isn't the whole point of why you had to use a Melee attack/weapon [sword, hands, staff, etc]...
...Was because the "intent" of the attack "powers" the attack, using willpower.

And the reason you can't use a ranged attack on Spirits was that a gun had no "intent" or willpower to "power" the attack ??

Sure, you might be able to blow chunks off the physical manifestation of a Spirit, but since it's "powered" by Astral Space it'll just regenerate [though it might have to take conscious effort to rebuild/regenerate itself]...
...Wheras the attack by willpower would attack the essence of the Spirit, the very bindings that maintain it's manifestation.


To change the way combat against Spirits is done, by just giving them Immunity to Normal Weapons [treat them as Hardened Armour] is a bit rubbish, and looks like change for change sake and streamlining to fit into the updated rules

What are you talking about? That's how Spiritual Immunity to Normal Weapons always worked. The mechanics of having a lot of armor have changed as editions changed, but that is literally always how spiritual resistance to guns worked, all the way back to 1989.

-Frank

Counterspelling doesn't require any maintenance. Just LoS and a free action to declare it's set up. After that it stays til the Mage drops it. Have another read.

It might work if you shot an adept with killing hands out of the cannon to do some sort of flying, killing headbutt. Otherwise, just being astrally active doesn't bypass the immunity to normal weapons of a manifest spirit.

And here we hav the best way for a mundane (troll) to kill a spirit, tie a dwarf adept with killing hands to a long chain and wield him as a high reach melee weapon.

Maybe also keep some throwing gnomes on hand (killing hands, and something to survive the fall afterward) for the hard to reach spirits.

The possible snag is that the character with the killing hands may need to be the one doing the attacking for it to count for piercing the immunity.

Street Magic p87, top of the left hand column.

(edited for correctness.)

Dual-Natured is a Critter Power and therefore penetrates ItNW. Dual Natured creatures have always had the great advantages of getting to use their normal physical stats against Spirits and other Astral threats, the ability to ignore ItNW and not suffering penalties for Astrally Perceiving.

Are you talking about where it says,

?

That means that you could use one against a wholly astral enemy, and a non-manifest spirit does not have immunity to normal weapons, rather than that they bypass the immunity of a manifest one.

I refer the honourable gentleman to my previous post.

Dual-Natured is a Critter Power, this I concede, but the capacity for Critter Powers to defeat Immunity to Normal Weapons doesn't apply to Dual-Natured. The Dual-Natured power is a reflexive one. A Dual-Natured Critter doesn't use its Dual-Natured power against a spirit when it attacks, though, it uses Unarmed Combat, which is not a power. An astral spirit does not have Immunity to Normal Weapons until it materializes. The Dual-Natured Critter would be able to bypass the spirit's immunity by attacking before it does so, but, unless there's something I'm unaware of, there's nothing in the rules that says it circumvents the immunity of a materialized spirit.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to insist that you support that statement with a quote from the rules.

Natural Weapon is a critter power.
Immunity to Normal Weapons does not apply to critter powers.

-Frank

So cats and dogs are able to combat spirits without issue?

I always understood it that the materialized spirit had Immunity to Natural Weapons on the physical plane (because that's where the natural weapon existed). But since the spirit was dual natured, it could still be attacked on the astral plane as normal, per Astral Combat rules, and thus a dual natured critter interacted with the spirit via Astral Combat, bypassing the Immunity to Natural Weapons. Hence, barghests are teh badass.

LOL.

I shan't hold my breath for errata there.

Frankly, the fact that things that bypass ItNW are explicitly listed in the power (weapon foci, spells, adept or critter powers, allergens) then its rather pointless to ask if there are any others.

Really, the only exception is astral combat, since ItNW is a P power, and astral combat requires at least 1 wholly astral entity, then obviously it wouldn't apply to any attacks from that entity.

Natural Weapon doesn't affect the spirit, either. It affects the critter that has the natural weapon, by giving it that weapon. Unarmed combat affects the spirit, which is not a power.

That argument is like saying that a weapon focus sword doesn't affect the spirit, the edged weapon skill does. Its incorrect, as evidenced by weapon foci.

It's not really the same, because the weapon focus says that it pierces Immunity, as does Killing Hands, which is a better comparison. Though, if the critter also was an adept and had killing hands, it could work.

Edit: Though, while looking at the description of the Natural Weapon power, it lists the range as Touch and the duration as Instant, rather than Auto and Always, I'm sure this is just referring to the use of that weapon, and they had hoped we would come to that conclusion as well.

Let's look at his for a sec.


Does this mean a possessed bullet could 'be used as weapons against astral forms' and bypass ItNW as a wholly astral M attack? Also would energy Aura have a chance to trigger if the bullet isn't technically making or receiving a melee attack?

This just occurred to me: While critter powers do break through Immunity to Normal Weapons, it doesn't, however, say that all critter powers do. The wording is ambiguous enough that it could mean either that all critter powers are exempt from immunity, or that some critter powers are exempt from immunity. In this way, the spirit could have his immunity against Natural Weapon, which makes sense, but not against, say, Elemental Attack or Energy Aura.

honestly the rules entity "critter power" got used for too much. Sapience shouldn't be the same thing as claws and teeth or the ability to Search for things in a huge radius. Even if it's a house rule feel like I need to use common sense when it comes to anything referencing critter powers as a class.

Can a Materialized Spirit damage another Materialized spirit?

Why?

Well, if it's like I said, it's not a house rule. It's just an unclear one.



This is actually something I was just thinking about. My answer would be that their basic attack doesn't penetrate the immunity (Unless they're something to which the other has a severe allergy), which makes for a more exciting all-out brawl between them, anyway, as they use all of their powers against eachother, instead.

Weapon foci are described explicitly as ignoring ItNW yes. Adept powers (which killing hands is a part of) are described as ignoring ItNW too. Critter powers (which natural weapon is a part of) are described as ignoring ItNW also. What is so hard to understand?

It also doesn't say all adept powers do. So, obviously since you're just punching them with killing hands, why should it pierce ItNW. If natural weapon doesn't ignore ItNW then killing hands shouldn't either.


Natural Weapon is a power, and they would be using it against each other, as using a power enhanced weapon is obviously a better alternative to just flailing with random body parts. If you really want a "fluff" explanation. Then without the natural weapon power, while the spirit might appear to be like a panther, it doesn't really use its claws/teeth to any advantage, since they're all the same "spirit matter". Having the natural weapon power would let it change the characteristics of the claws/teeth to be harder and sharper, making them actually more effective than the rest of the spirit to use in an attack.

And yes, the rule in Street Magic for picking up and hitting an astral entity with a spirit was intended to be the general rule as well. It's smoothly derivable from the rules as printed. If you hit an astral entity with a dual natured object or your own dual natured self, that totally works. It works if they are purely astral, it works if they are materialized and have immunity to normal weapons.

Now it's problematic to try to hit someone with a non-weapon focus, because it's not weaponized on the astral plane and it's just like hitting them with a ghoul. But if you're OK with the rather underwhelming damage code for improvised weapon, then go for it.

-Frank

Frank, don't foci cease being dual-natured when they aren't active?

Yes. But you can keep it active as long as it touches your body. So while you can't throw or shoot an active focus at someone, you can pick up your incredibly expensive power focus and smack a spirit with it.

Generally you're better off just using your fist or an attack of will through any random mundane object. You about the same damage and you aren't swinging around something that is worth tens of thousands of nuyen.

-Frank

All weapon foci ignore Immunity to Normal Weapons, but that's in the description of Weapon Foci, whereas it's not in the description of Critter Powers or Adept Abilities that they all ignore Immunity to Normal Weapons, but only in the description of a particular adept ability, and, it would seem, left to GM discretion which Critter Powers, some of which it says are natural, and others magical, pass through.


It should because the description of Killing Hands says that it does, whereas other adept powers, like, say, Power Throw or Penetrating or Critical Strike, which conceivably could, don't. You could also reason that some spells do and some don't, particularly, say, indirect combat spells, which are resisted with armor, or, even more likely, telekinetic manipulation spells like Fling, Magic Fingers or Poltergeist.

Dude, it's in the description of Immunity to Normal Weapons that Adept and Critter powers pass through it. The text in Killing Hands to that effect is a redundant reminder.

-Frank

It is also in the description of ItNW that weapon foci, spells, and critter/adept powers bypass it.


Again, ItNW specifies magical weapons as being weapon foci, spells, adept or critter powers.

Natural weapon can replace the regular unarmed attack of a spirit, and is a spirit power, as such, it is a magical weapon that should bypass ItNW.

Indirect combat spells DO bypass the ItNW. Force 4 earth spirit. You cast a force 4 flamethower at it. It gets its reaction to dodge. And then its Body for soak if you still hit. Why no armor? Because flamethrower is a magical attack and bypasses the ItNW that it has, so it has effectively 0 armor.

So, do you mean to say that all Adept Powers penetrate Immunity to Normal Weapons, too? If it's a redundant reminder, as Frank suggests, they must, since otherwise, if it was showing that Killing Hands was the only adept power to do so, it wouldn't be redundant.



But what about telekinetic manipulations? I'm totally willing to accept that indirect combat works, since that one I could have gone either way on, but I am in no way convinced about the manipulations, which you chose not to address.


Of the normal spirit types, Natural Weapon is actually only a power for Guardian and Beast spirits, and, it may actually be a magical weapon for them, because in their case, it is magical in nature. However, it is also a power of a runner's pet german shepherd, and should, in their case, in no way apply to piercing Immunity to Normal Weapons, no matter how lovable the dog may be.

It is clear what the rules say.
For reasons mysterious and strange the claws and teeth of predators ignore Immunity to Normal Weapons.
Why non-magical predators picked this up when the world awakened, but herbivores did not (a horses hooves ought to be quite dangerous, but do not pick up this power. Nor the back-kick of a mule. Nor, presumably, the bite of a hippo, one of the most fearsome natural beasts on the planet. Sure, its teeth are herbivorous molars designed to eat water plants. Get him angry and he wilbreak you. Even crocodiles have the sense not to mess with hippos.)

I can wish it made more sense, from a consistency standpoint. But it is pretty clear. Sharpened teeth and claws usually get special treatment. (There is no eagle or hawk example to tell which category they fall into.)

Yours,
Joel Halpern

Well, the ones which are weapons... which are... killing hands, distance strike, and elemental strike.



What about them? They bypass it. Lets see, damaging manipulation spells... Fling doesn't count, because the spell doesn't cause the damage, it just lets the caster make a normal ranged attack roll. Ignite, yeah, that'd bypass it. Levitate no, same reason as fling, is resolved as a regular ranged attack roll. Magic fingers sure would. Poltergeist wouldn't, due to it not causing the damage, but the debris flying around causing it. [Element] Aura would for sure. So would [element] wall. Offensive mana barrier too. As would spirit barrier/zapper.


Critters are different. Maybe its because dogs aren't sentient and thus fully 100% no doubt at all believe their teeth work as well as on a person, so they do.

While I would like to find a reason to match the rules, the one you suggest doesn't seem to do it. Byt that reasoning, a horse would also bypass immunity. As would a camel's bite , etc. (I am inferring from the only available non-predator non-para critter, the horse.)

Joel