I've cited my references. The Router. Yours ignores the Router, thus it's a house rule. You're also the one claiming that all Skillsofts have magical information encoded into them that only the CED can read, which it can't, because the CED enhances the Chipjack, NOT the Skillsoft. Nothing in the description of a CED states that it requires a Skillsoft, only the information encoded on one. And duh, you can download that information into Headware Memory just fine... you just need a way to get it back from Headware Memory into the Chipjack so the CED can access it.

And yes, Routers normally allow devices that don't talk together to talk together, but it's a one-way street; you download information from a Chipjack to Headware Memory as opposed to encoding information onto a Chipjack (that's one of several reasons Datajacks w/ Knowsoft Links are more expensive, because it's a specialized 'jack). The Router, on the other hands, routes the very same and identifical information the CED-enhanced Chipjack downloaded into memory right back into the Chipjack.

But if you prefer to not see it like that, fine, no Router needed at all. Yay.

They can send data to each other. Whoopie. That still doesn't prove your theory even remotely. You can't even provide a single example of anything that works the way you're trying to pretend this does.

Zazen: You're not making any sense.

Spooky: First, I never said a character can't have multiple CED-enhanced Chipjacks. Zazen's the one saying that you could route them all together and have a single 'soft gaining the bonus from all of the CEDs.

Second, now you're using another houserule with your assumption about accessing the CED alone. You can't; Routers route devices, not accessories. You route a Smartlink to an Image Link (if just a reticle implant) or a Cybereye with an Image Link; you don't route the Smartlink Processor to the Image Link in a Cybereye, just like you don't route Headware Memory to a CED.

Third, don't even get started on how bizarre computers work in Shadowrun.

Fourth, I never said a Router magically changes anything around. I'm saying the Router transfers the very same information found on the chip right back to the Chipjack, which in turn allows the CED to do its magic. Which it does to the Chipjack, not the Skillsoft. The CED never touches the Skillsoft in any way, shape, or form; it enhances the Chipjack's processing capabilities.

Fifth, no, that's not how it works. Period. If it did, you could do the same damn thing without Headware Memory just by routing multiple Chipjacks together (complete with chips plugged into them), so even if you want to pretend that's how it works, fine... but then it's broken whether you allow it to work with Headware Memory or not, so your point is still completely and utterly moot.

Let me finish the sentence for you (one last time, with feeeeling:

<sighs> Whatever. What part of "Chipjacks normally can't read from Headware Memory, hence the sentence fragment you're clutching on to" and "Routers change that" are you just not getting?

You do realize that we were both wrong earlier, right? Chipjacks never talk to Headware Memory on their own. You normally have to have a Knowsoft Link or Skillwires to access 'softs in Memory.

In the description for Routers.

M&M p. 46, "Likewise, components of a particular 'system' do not need to be linked via router or datajack because they are integrially linked to the system of which they are a part." It then goes on to point out that smartlink subsystems don't need to be routed together, but if you're using an image link in place of the eye display, you have to route the smartlink (note that it's a single device as opposed to a 'smartlink processor') to the image link. Likewise, if the image link was an accessory of a cybereye as opposed to an independant implant, you would just have to link the smartlink to the cybereye.

I suppose you could route them independantly if you really wanted to. It's your stupidity, not mine. It wouldn't help in the case of a CED in any case, as it improves the Chipjack's ability to process information. There's no information being sent, it's a hardware improvement to the Chipjack. You might be able to rationalize routing the CED to a Knowsoft Link (I wouldn't have a problem with that either, but the rules don't seem to suggest it's possible as the CED is a hardware improvement, not a processor in its own right), though.

Wow, I never saw so many people arguing the same damn point from so many different angles.

FWIW, I think, based on what I've read and how I've understood it:

You can have CEDs on each seperate chipjack. Each would only add its bonus to the skill running through the jack - however it was running. I think the router would in fact allow you to run it from headware. I can see absolutely no reason why not. except the 'from a skill encoded on a chip' quote. admittedly, since that IS a quote, it carries a fair bit of weight. But it does NOT say 'ONLY from a skill encoded on a chip'.

If you read up on skill softs, btls and other chips, is there anything to suggest there's something unique about the software on a skillsoft which mean it has to be on a chip and can't be stored as data elsewhere in perfect replication (i.e. headware memory)? Since they're programmed on a computer I doubt it. I've certainly not found anything. The use of skillwires specifically mentions being able to store it in headware so why not, if it was routed?

Without a router sure it wouldn't work, but with one, if the jacks were included with the headware on the link? I see no reason why not. The data is just the same as it was on the 'soft itself in the first place, so if not, why not, apart from the quote? Which brings me onto my next point:

I think what is needed is an official clarification of the quote, either '...data encoded on a chip, not headware memory or other medium' or '...data encoded on a chip, headware memory or other device which transmit data through the jack.'

Until we have that, you can't resolve the debate except by interpreting what else we know about the SR world and trying to come up with a reasonable and/or balanced answer. Since neither of you seem the kind to want to make a final decision where there is still doubt, we're screwed until we get an official answer. Since someone's asked, we may as well wait. I'm actually very interested. there's a character in one of my games with skillwires and CEDs. We've had to change the levels cos he'd had R10 CEDs installed on his single chipjack which we've had to lower to 3 (thank GOD! My bad. I should never have let him have them that high in the first place), and I'd be interested to see what other limits if any are imposed. He doesn't actually use headware memory but he might decide to at some point...

But at the moment there is a case for either interpretation. Surely?

(And I'm not sure, but I think Zazen might have just been winding you up with the stacking CED pools thing. He was just taking something someone said to its logical extreme. I think, anyway! You don't seriously beleive that's ok or intended now they've brought out the errata with the maximum rating do you?)

Yes, I know. He's a pathetic little troll, but tries to pretend he's just being an innocent bystandard.

I didn't mean it like that!

I did.

No, I'm only wrong in the use of the word "can't." There's absolutely no need to do it, thus if you do want to do it, you are indeed being stupid by purposefully crippling your abilities. You're still wrong about routing to individual CEDs (which again, you can't do with a router as there's nothing to communicate to the CED to begin with), and have yet to show a single shred of evidence proving your point about gaining a Task Pool from multiple ones.

As for you latter comment... in a word: Bullshit. You constantly come into threads to say idiotic comments to show how "wrong" I am, most often by coming up with total inane points with no evidence to back them up, like your attempts to show how "broken" routing from Headware Memory is.

No, I was just pointing out that YOU were only reading part of the entry for the CED by only reading part of the entry for Skillwires. The part you keep rampantly ignoring while clutching to your sentence fragment is the ENTIRITY OF THE REST OF THE DESCRIPTION of what a Chipjack Expert Driver is and does, all the while rambling on and on about a make-believe magical coding on Skillsofts that only a CED can access.

As for the headware part, you should read the description of a Chipjack and the description for a Knowsoft Link before "bzzt"ing me.

With any luck, this thread'll be shutdown soon, before we degenerate any further...

'night all.

Oh please. Earlier in the thread I said that you couldn't route to a CED directly, only to the Chipjack (and then admitted later that you could do that). You then rambled on and on about how routing directly to the CED was horribly broken because it did... well, whatever you thought it did even though there's no basis whatsoever to back that up... but only because you could route to the CED, as opposed to accessing it via the Chipjack, which provides exactly the same thing "problem." And you're now trying to pretend you were saying that all along, and that I was somehow wrong and you were somehow right.

How that makes sense in your head is beyond me, but it's to be expected now that you're on your holier-than-thou trolling crusade.

Oh, and as a side note, I still haven't seen any of you explain to me exactly how "broken" it is -- completely within the rules, as opposed to Zazan's make-believe rules (der, you can get more Task Pool dat way, but fer sum reeson, ya can't do it with Chipjacks, duh huh!) -- to allow skillsofts loaded into Headware Memory to be routed to a Chipjack Expert Driver.

And when you do, explain to me how whatever silly explanation you come up with for why it's "broken" compares to the fact that you can use a Skillsoft Jukebox to perform the same task, only signficantly cheaper in both Essence and costs.

mind you is all IMHO but
If the power of the CED was just simple hardware, then why couldn't you just build it into chips or chipjacks with no extra essence charge. But it does take essence, meaning it has to hook into your nervous system. Personally, I always thought that the CED was borederline wetware. It "wrote" portions of the chip onto your memory, meaning there was a greater store of knowledge then just the simple stream of data from the chip, allowing for the task pool to be accessed.

Again, this is total IMHO

As for regarding multiple CED working on one chip... no problem. Just remember to use the I/O rules, cause you are piping that soft out of headware memory, into a CED, to another CED, to another CED, to another CED, to another CED, to another CED, and then finally to the Skillwires. There is probably a bit of a lag. Also, remember that Task Pools are like any other pool, even if you have a 15 Task pool, you can only put as much as you have in the skill into the roll.

(Jumping into the shark pool) Seems to me like the most appropriate analogy would be something like putting in a nicer video card on your computer. Can your AGP card render your standard vice city game? Yeah, sure it can. But get one of those rageon cards (or whatever is the newest $1,000 card) and it'll render the same stuff, but better. Higher frame rate, better resolution, realistic backgrounds and explosions. Is it in any way changing the data on the CD, or stored on your HD? No, not at all. BUT it is taking that data and making more efficient use of it, presenting and using more information than the AGP card.

The CED seems like it would do the same thing. It's not especially relevant if the data is actually coming from outside of the jack or not, as long as it's going through this piece of equipment. This isn't overcoming problems with the physical format (if it were, then skillwires would specify that softs grabbed from memory would be somehow different than those from the chip as they're different physical formats), so it doesn't matter if you're coming from the chip or memory.

Could you daisy chain them? I'd say no, because that would circumvent the errata (and the metaphor only extends so far, so don't tell me you can use multiple video cards). OOC reason, I know, but hey, that's life.

Why does it cost essence? Because EVERYTHING costs essence. If I had headware memory put in without connecting it to anything, I couldn't use it, but it'd still cost essence. Replacing my fingernails with razors doesn't connect with my neural system, but it costs essence. Determining if something hooks up with my neural system or not is not the only reason something costs essence.

A quick random point to anyone who's not totally familiar with skillwires... Headware memory does *NOT* contribute towards the memory of the skillwire system. You can't buy a skillwire system at level 6 with 1 MP of memory, then add on headware memory until you get a system with level 6 and 200MP of memory. Skillwire memory has to be bought with the skillwire, headware is just so you don't need a chip in your hand.

That's actually a really good (and more importantly, accurate) analogy. Wish I had thought of it.

Df,

I'm just going to stop posting for awhile since every time I disagree with you or correct your mistakes I become a troll (and a pathetic boneheaded stupid idiotic dumbass). Somehow my stupidity never seems to come up when I agree with you on other threads, though.

Anyway, I look forward to reading your "I get the last word" post about me and my idiotic trolling holier-than-thou tendancies. Extra points if you put in something about specifically targeting you because I hate you and have no other focus in my life.

Time out.