Is there any way (in-game) for someone, mundane or Awakened, to tell if a newborn child or such, will become an Awakened?
Also, is there any way to tell if an (apparently) human child will become an Ork/Troll at puberty?
In addition, what about Technomancers? Do they develop their abilities through childhood, or are they immediately capable of manipulating the Matrix at an early age?
Full Version: Congratualtions, it's an Ork!
Amniocentesis can detect many but not all fetuses who will goblinize and all fetuses which are devloping into dwarfs or elves.
-Frank
-Frank
The quick answer is no, not really.
Shadowtech had an extensive section on the genetics of UGE/goblinization and what it basically boils down to is that certain genes thought to be introns (i.e. junk- not expressed) actually affect the "shape" of the genome which then casts astral shadows. In the proper magical environment those shadows cause metatrait expression.
But despite this detailed explanation of the epigenetic mechanism the section basically says that they don't understand enough about it to make accurate predictions. The only associations that hold true are:
1.) the child will take on the metatype of either the mother or father but not both (i.e. no half breeds)
2.) not counting humans, parents of the same metatype (i.e. 2 elves) generally have a child of the same metatype (i.e. an elf). They can theoretically have a child of a different metatype (i.e. a troll) but if it occurs it is so rare it has never been documented.
[edit]Augmentation also has a section that basically reiterates and updates Shadowtech with a few more details.
Frank- is that specifically stated anywhere (amniocentesis)?[/edit]
Shadowtech had an extensive section on the genetics of UGE/goblinization and what it basically boils down to is that certain genes thought to be introns (i.e. junk- not expressed) actually affect the "shape" of the genome which then casts astral shadows. In the proper magical environment those shadows cause metatrait expression.
But despite this detailed explanation of the epigenetic mechanism the section basically says that they don't understand enough about it to make accurate predictions. The only associations that hold true are:
1.) the child will take on the metatype of either the mother or father but not both (i.e. no half breeds)
2.) not counting humans, parents of the same metatype (i.e. 2 elves) generally have a child of the same metatype (i.e. an elf). They can theoretically have a child of a different metatype (i.e. a troll) but if it occurs it is so rare it has never been documented.
[edit]Augmentation also has a section that basically reiterates and updates Shadowtech with a few more details.
Frank- is that specifically stated anywhere (amniocentesis)?[/edit]
Well, a simple Ultrasound can probably figure out the Metatype. Maybe not Elf/Human, but who knows, maybe they got the resolution up pretty good. Troll would be pretty easy for a Non-Troll Mother. ("Are you having twins?")
If the child is born human (Sapien Sapien, that is), there's no way to know if they'll Goblinize. It's rare, but does still happen. I think it usually occures in Low Mana areas, which require the kid's body to absorb enough magic in order to cause the change. But that's my two
.
If the child is born human (Sapien Sapien, that is), there's no way to know if they'll Goblinize. It's rare, but does still happen. I think it usually occures in Low Mana areas, which require the kid's body to absorb enough magic in order to cause the change. But that's my two
.
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Jun 14 2008, 04:19 PM) 
Amniocentesis can detect many but not all fetuses who will goblinize and all fetuses which are devloping into dwarfs or elves.
Can you please give a source for that? Because that's not consistent with my understanding of either the traditional Amniocentesis technique OR the knowledge of the genes associated with goblinization.
QUOTE (the_dunner @ Jun 14 2008, 09:52 PM)
Can you please give a source for that? Because that's not consistent with my understanding of either the traditional Amniocentesis technique OR the knowledge of the genes associated with goblinization.
It deals with the fact that elves, and dwarfs are born elfs and dwarfs, and as such MUST develop that way. The amnio will tell if the ELF/DWARF genes are actually active or not. As far as who will goblinize? it might look to see if that have the markers which will form the nessesary astral shadows in a mana heavy environment,
Except thats not the way it works.
Its hard to make any conclusions based on their pseudoscientific explanations, but just inheriting the gene isn't enough because it is not a simple Mendelian inheritance trait. You might be able to tell if someone carries the necessary genes (assuming they have been accurately identified) but the problem there is that you're dealing with a trait that is multigenetic (and Augmentation states they haven't identified all the genes) and shows incomplete penetrance (based on ambient mana levels). Plus if two orcs can give birth to a human that might indicate locus heterogeneity and Augmentation makes it sound like some kind of chromosome rearrangement might also be involved.
And the kicker is there are epigenetic changes that have to occur and most amniocentesis uses karyotyping by FISH and/or PCR, neither of which would detect epigenetic changes much less astral shadows.
But wait theres more: Augmentation says that the epigenetic changes don't take place in vitro- probably has to do with separating the DNA from the persons living aura. Well the cells harvested in amniocentesis are shed- meaning they might also loose those epigenetic changes. I guess you could have a specially trained mage that assenses every sample, but he'd have to be standing by because you can't have samples sitting around for days waiting for a handful of awakened lab techs to "run them". I think the cost and demand would be prohibitive.
So in principle you might be able to use amniocenteses, but my understanding is that they can't because they lack a complete understanding of the genetics.
And because I am genuinely curious, and because I know Frank is probably up on his genetics, I ask again: Is there a canon reference or how did you come to that conclusion?
Its hard to make any conclusions based on their pseudoscientific explanations, but just inheriting the gene isn't enough because it is not a simple Mendelian inheritance trait. You might be able to tell if someone carries the necessary genes (assuming they have been accurately identified) but the problem there is that you're dealing with a trait that is multigenetic (and Augmentation states they haven't identified all the genes) and shows incomplete penetrance (based on ambient mana levels). Plus if two orcs can give birth to a human that might indicate locus heterogeneity and Augmentation makes it sound like some kind of chromosome rearrangement might also be involved.
And the kicker is there are epigenetic changes that have to occur and most amniocentesis uses karyotyping by FISH and/or PCR, neither of which would detect epigenetic changes much less astral shadows.
But wait theres more: Augmentation says that the epigenetic changes don't take place in vitro- probably has to do with separating the DNA from the persons living aura. Well the cells harvested in amniocentesis are shed- meaning they might also loose those epigenetic changes. I guess you could have a specially trained mage that assenses every sample, but he'd have to be standing by because you can't have samples sitting around for days waiting for a handful of awakened lab techs to "run them". I think the cost and demand would be prohibitive.
So in principle you might be able to use amniocenteses, but my understanding is that they can't because they lack a complete understanding of the genetics.
And because I am genuinely curious, and because I know Frank is probably up on his genetics, I ask again: Is there a canon reference or how did you come to that conclusion?
QUOTE (Method @ Jun 14 2008, 10:56 PM)
Except thats not the way it works.
Its hard to make any conclusions based on their pseudoscientific explanations, but just inheriting the gene isn't enough because it is not a simple Mendelian inheritance trait- You might be able to tell if someone carries the necessary genes (assuming they have been accurately identified) but the problem there is that you're dealing with a trait that is A.) multigenetic (and Augmentation states they haven't identified all the genes) and B.) shows incomplete penetrance (based on ambient mana levels). Plus if two orcs can give birth to a human that might indicate locus heterogeneity and Augmentation makes it sound like some kind of chromosome rearrangement might also be involved.
And the kicker is there are epigenetic changes that have to occur and most amniocentesis uses karyotyping by FISH and/or PCR, neither of which would detect epigenetic changes much less astral shadows.
But wait theres more: Augmentation says that the epigenetic changes don't take place in vitro- probably has to do with separating the DNA from the persons living aura. Well the cells harvested in amniocentesis are shed- meaning they might also loose those epigenetic changes. I guess you could have a specially trained mage that assenses every sample, but then cost and demand would be prohibitive- he'd have to be standing by because you can't have samples sitting around for days waiting for a handful of awakened lab techs to "run them".
So in principle you might be able to use amniocenteses, but my understanding is that they can't because they lack a complete understanding of the genetics.
And because I am genuinely curious, and because I know Frank is probably up on his genetics, I ask again: Is there a canon reference or how did you come to that conclusion?
Its hard to make any conclusions based on their pseudoscientific explanations, but just inheriting the gene isn't enough because it is not a simple Mendelian inheritance trait- You might be able to tell if someone carries the necessary genes (assuming they have been accurately identified) but the problem there is that you're dealing with a trait that is A.) multigenetic (and Augmentation states they haven't identified all the genes) and B.) shows incomplete penetrance (based on ambient mana levels). Plus if two orcs can give birth to a human that might indicate locus heterogeneity and Augmentation makes it sound like some kind of chromosome rearrangement might also be involved.
And the kicker is there are epigenetic changes that have to occur and most amniocentesis uses karyotyping by FISH and/or PCR, neither of which would detect epigenetic changes much less astral shadows.
But wait theres more: Augmentation says that the epigenetic changes don't take place in vitro- probably has to do with separating the DNA from the persons living aura. Well the cells harvested in amniocentesis are shed- meaning they might also loose those epigenetic changes. I guess you could have a specially trained mage that assenses every sample, but then cost and demand would be prohibitive- he'd have to be standing by because you can't have samples sitting around for days waiting for a handful of awakened lab techs to "run them".
So in principle you might be able to use amniocenteses, but my understanding is that they can't because they lack a complete understanding of the genetics.
And because I am genuinely curious, and because I know Frank is probably up on his genetics, I ask again: Is there a canon reference or how did you come to that conclusion?
I'm not saying the detect the actual shadows themselves, but might be able to recognize the genetic marks which cause the necessary shadows for form.
Not if they haven't fully identified the "genetic marks" and not if those "genetic marks" only cause UGE/goblinization some of the time.
Let me give you a different (and extreme example): do they do amniocentesis to check for future Coronary Artery Disease? No. Because there are too many genes involved, too many environmental variables and some people who have all the genes, smoke and eat McDonald's everyday still don't die of a heart attack. The test would have no value and wouldn't be worth the risk to the baby (and there are risks). Same with metatype.
Let me give you a different (and extreme example): do they do amniocentesis to check for future Coronary Artery Disease? No. Because there are too many genes involved, too many environmental variables and some people who have all the genes, smoke and eat McDonald's everyday still don't die of a heart attack. The test would have no value and wouldn't be worth the risk to the baby (and there are risks). Same with metatype.
QUOTE (Method @ Jun 14 2008, 11:25 PM)
Not if they haven't fully identified the "genetic marks" and not if those "genetic marks" only cause UGE/goblinization some of the time.
Let me give you a different (and extreme example): do they do amniocentesis to check for future Coronary Artery Disease? No. Because there are too many genes involved, too many environmental variables and some people who have all the genes, smoke and eat McDonald's everyday still don't die of a heart attack. The test would have no value and wouldn't be worth the risk to the baby (and there are risks). Same with metatype.
Let me give you a different (and extreme example): do they do amniocentesis to check for future Coronary Artery Disease? No. Because there are too many genes involved, too many environmental variables and some people who have all the genes, smoke and eat McDonald's everyday still don't die of a heart attack. The test would have no value and wouldn't be worth the risk to the baby (and there are risks). Same with metatype.
Thing is they've said they've identified many of the genes involved in things like goblinization and the like, so they should be able to predict atleast some of the people who might goblinize under the right circumstances.
Again: not worth the risks of performing amniocentesis.
You're talking about a 1/150 chance of fetal death for "well your kid might be an ork, but maybe not because we don't really know our ass from a hole in the ground." And "being ork" isn't a disease that requires treatment.
No rational mother would consent to it. No ethical doctor would do it. No decent hospital would allow it. And no insurance company that wanted to stay in business would pay for it.
You're talking about a 1/150 chance of fetal death for "well your kid might be an ork, but maybe not because we don't really know our ass from a hole in the ground." And "being ork" isn't a disease that requires treatment.
No rational mother would consent to it. No ethical doctor would do it. No decent hospital would allow it. And no insurance company that wanted to stay in business would pay for it.
You guys are throwing around old tech.
So yes:
Non-invasive prenatal screening can demonstrate the difference between a human and an elf or dwarf. The UGE happens during early fetal development, so modern techniques can catch that. No Elven noble family need go through the heartbreak of having a human or dwarf son.
Prenatal screening can catch many but not all of the potential goblinization candidates. There are known combinations, so they can look at a genetic test and say with certainty that it will goblinize into a troll. But there are also unknown combinations, so they may end up looking at a genetic test and be unable to definitively determine what metatype it will ultimately be. While the odds would be on their side to call it a human, there's no guaranty that such a baby wouldn't change into a hobgoblin or a cyclops later in life.
And SURGE genetics is still pretty much not understood as far as I know. But it's not super important, because since 2062 it has been shown that SURGE traits manifest prenatally, so we don't need to ever figure out what the feathers gene is to identify potentially feathered babies before they are born. (Augmentation, p. 77)
-Frank
QUOTE (Augmentation @ p. 76)
The Hausen breakthroughs yielded the Nobel Prize for Medicine in 2050. What really won them the award was their explanation of the differences between UGE and Goblinization. Elven and dwarf metagenes can only establish expression during embryonic development. Thus, a human will not express the nobilis and pumilionis traits after diferentiation has occurred. Ork and troll metagenes can express either in vitro, through sudden expression triggered by puberty, or via a radical increase in ambient mana.
Forty-one metatraits have been identified as of this writing, but this may just be the tip of the iceberg. While metagenes are clearly inherited and generally metatypes breed true, in a few rare combinations they do not. It has been hypothesized that a complex interaction between a substantial number of these metagenes is key to reaching some sort of threshold. Instances of metahuman parents having human or different metavariant children have been recorded. Some combinations haven’t been observed, so it seems unlikely that two elven parents could ever have a troll. There are, however, many recorded instances of human children born of ork parents—though admittedly many go on to express at puberty, proving they have inherited all of the relevant metatraits.
]Forty-one metatraits have been identified as of this writing, but this may just be the tip of the iceberg. While metagenes are clearly inherited and generally metatypes breed true, in a few rare combinations they do not. It has been hypothesized that a complex interaction between a substantial number of these metagenes is key to reaching some sort of threshold. Instances of metahuman parents having human or different metavariant children have been recorded. Some combinations haven’t been observed, so it seems unlikely that two elven parents could ever have a troll. There are, however, many recorded instances of human children born of ork parents—though admittedly many go on to express at puberty, proving they have inherited all of the relevant metatraits.
So yes:
Non-invasive prenatal screening can demonstrate the difference between a human and an elf or dwarf. The UGE happens during early fetal development, so modern techniques can catch that. No Elven noble family need go through the heartbreak of having a human or dwarf son.
Prenatal screening can catch many but not all of the potential goblinization candidates. There are known combinations, so they can look at a genetic test and say with certainty that it will goblinize into a troll. But there are also unknown combinations, so they may end up looking at a genetic test and be unable to definitively determine what metatype it will ultimately be. While the odds would be on their side to call it a human, there's no guaranty that such a baby wouldn't change into a hobgoblin or a cyclops later in life.
And SURGE genetics is still pretty much not understood as far as I know. But it's not super important, because since 2062 it has been shown that SURGE traits manifest prenatally, so we don't need to ever figure out what the feathers gene is to identify potentially feathered babies before they are born. (Augmentation, p. 77)
-Frank
So this is an inference you've made then? Not a leap I would make based on the info in Augmentation. My interpretation is that despite advances, geneticists in 2070 still lack the level understanding required to make meaningful predictions.
Forty-one metatraits have been identified as of this writing
-Frank
-Frank
QUOTE (Method @ Jun 15 2008, 12:36 AM)
So this is an inference you've made then? Not a leap I would make based on the info in Augmentation. My interpretation is that despite advances, geneticists in 2070 still lack the level understanding required to make meaningful predictions.
Elf and dwarf babies are observations not preditons, orc and troll predictions based on at least partially understood genetic traits
Some other quotes from Augmentatinon:
"the actual mechanism remains unknown."
"What is clear, however, is that the metagenes are only part of it."
"Forty-one metatraits have been identified as of this writing,
but this may just be the tip of the iceberg."
And I will reiterate that there are still the problems of multigenicity, incomplete penetrance, locus heterogeneity and epigentic changes that may only be present on the astral.
A doctor could make predictions based on finding certain combinations of genes, but not knowing all the genes involved would greatly reduce accuracy and anything approaching 50% is basically a guess. That is not a reliable test.
"the actual mechanism remains unknown."
"What is clear, however, is that the metagenes are only part of it."
"Forty-one metatraits have been identified as of this writing,
but this may just be the tip of the iceberg."
And I will reiterate that there are still the problems of multigenicity, incomplete penetrance, locus heterogeneity and epigentic changes that may only be present on the astral.
A doctor could make predictions based on finding certain combinations of genes, but not knowing all the genes involved would greatly reduce accuracy and anything approaching 50% is basically a guess. That is not a reliable test.
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Jun 15 2008, 12:41 AM)
Elf and dwarf babies are observations not preditons, orc and troll predictions based on at least partially understood genetic traits
Not if you don't know all the genes to test for and not if a baby with some of the genes can still be human.
In you humble oppinion. To know whats actually going on we'd have to ask the dev who wrote the section what the intent was. But until told otherwise by the guy who wrote it I'll side with Frank on this one.
Science is not opinion. If you don't know all the genes or the mechanisms involved in the expression of a complex trait you can't accurately test for that trait in an individual or predict its occurrence in an individual.
My interpretation of the fluff is that they don't know all the genes involved and don't fully understand the mechanism, which is debatable i suppose. See the quotes from Augmentation in my previous post.
My interpretation of the fluff is that they don't know all the genes involved and don't fully understand the mechanism, which is debatable i suppose. See the quotes from Augmentation in my previous post.
>Science is not opinion
*looks around for ID nut-cases* Science is what scientists do. It is a human activity greatly shaped by opinion and all the rest of the dirty politicking of anything social animals take seriously. Truth is on an opinion. Science is not Truth. I say this knowing full well that people observing the real world, making positive testable claims, and testing them, and then action on those data are the only reason we aren't still living like hunters and gathers.
*looks around for ID nut-cases* Science is what scientists do. It is a human activity greatly shaped by opinion and all the rest of the dirty politicking of anything social animals take seriously. Truth is on an opinion. Science is not Truth. I say this knowing full well that people observing the real world, making positive testable claims, and testing them, and then action on those data are the only reason we aren't still living like hunters and gathers.
QUOTE (Method @ Jun 15 2008, 02:17 AM)
Science is not opinion. If you don't know all the genes or the mechanisms involved in the expression of a complex trait you can't accurately test for that trait in an individual or predict its occurrence in an individual.
My interpretation of the fluff is that they don't know all the genes involved and don't fully understand the mechanism, which is debatable i suppose. See the quotes from Augmentation in my previous post.
My interpretation of the fluff is that they don't know all the genes involved and don't fully understand the mechanism, which is debatable i suppose. See the quotes from Augmentation in my previous post.
By oppinion I mean your interpretation of the fluff. I know enough about genetics to understand whats going on, and feel they've provided enough information to allow for certain judgments to be made, you feel otherwise.
QUOTE
Science is not opinion. If you don't know all the genes or the mechanisms involved in the expression of a complex trait you can't accurately test for that trait in an individual or predict its occurrence in an individual.
Lolwut?
I guess we'll have to stop testing for Cystic Fibrosis, because we can't do it.
Whatever dude.
-Frank
QUOTE (Method @ Jun 15 2008, 01:44 AM)
Again: not worth the risks of performing amniocentesis.
You're talking about a 1/150 chance of fetal death for "well your kid might be an ork, but maybe not because we don't really know our ass from a hole in the ground." And "being ork" isn't a disease that requires treatment.
No rational mother would consent to it. No ethical doctor would do it. No decent hospital would allow it. And no insurance company that wanted to stay in business would pay for it.
You're talking about a 1/150 chance of fetal death for "well your kid might be an ork, but maybe not because we don't really know our ass from a hole in the ground." And "being ork" isn't a disease that requires treatment.
No rational mother would consent to it. No ethical doctor would do it. No decent hospital would allow it. And no insurance company that wanted to stay in business would pay for it.
Tell that to Humanis, and the other Anti-Meta Policlubs.
Actually the whole "use a big goddamn needle" is probably out by 2070.
I think I heard about a danish research team, who is currently in approval stages of a method that tests the mothers urine for the same traces that you'd pick up with the needle. Just using more sensitive equipment to pick up the fainter traces (in urine compared to the amniotic fluid).
This way, and their main reason for doing the research, you eliminate the risks for the foetus.
I think I heard about a danish research team, who is currently in approval stages of a method that tests the mothers urine for the same traces that you'd pick up with the needle. Just using more sensitive equipment to pick up the fainter traces (in urine compared to the amniotic fluid).
This way, and their main reason for doing the research, you eliminate the risks for the foetus.
Of course, someone with medical skills and/or a high aura reading skill might just assense the fetus.
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Jun 15 2008, 03:13 AM)
Non-invasive prenatal screening can demonstrate the difference between a human and an elf or dwarf.
An Ultrasound would readily detect elf or dwarf anatomy. However, looking at a karyotype produced by amniocentesis certainly wouldn't.
QUOTE
Prenatal screening can catch many but not all of the potential goblinization candidates. There are known combinations, so they can look at a genetic test and say with certainty that it will goblinize into a troll.
You've phrased that very carefully. I'd still disagree with your conclusion though. You're inferring that *most* of the metagenes associated with goblinization have been identified. I don't believe that to be the case. You're also inferring that some threshold combinations are known. I'd posit that a very small subset of the metagenes required are known. I'd also posit that very few if any of those threshold combinations have been identified. With the penetrance issues that are involved, I don't believe that there's any way a genetic screen for goblinization could have clinically acceptable levels of accuracy.
QUOTE (Method @ Jun 15 2008, 03:59 AM)
Not if you don't know all the genes to test for and not if a baby with some of the genes can still be human.
Exactly.
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Jun 15, 2008, 04:01 AM)
To know whats actually going on we'd have to ask the dev who wrote the section what the intent was. But until told otherwise by the guy who wrote it I'll side with Frank on this one.
I'd prefer not to use that as the criteria. However, if that were the case, then, I'd have to say, "You've been told otherwise by the guy who wrote it."
QUOTE (FrankTrollman @ Jun 15 2008, 04:48 AM)
I guess we'll have to stop testing for Cystic Fibrosis, because we can't do it.
Interesting choice there, since that disease is the one on which most of my research is focused. CF is a single gene disorder with multigenic associations. We can positively test for whether a patient will have CF due entirely to the fact that we've characterized the key gene. However, based upon that single genotype, we absolutely can NOT determine the severity of the disease. And really, a CF patient with a mild phenotype can live with minor symptoms for many times the life expectancy of a patient with a severe disease. It's those other subtle variants that really dictate the disease course.
Goblinization is nothing like that. It's not a single gene syndrome. Rather, it's an entirely multigenic trait, where an enormous number of variants plus astral shadows - which require the mapping skills of an Awakened with savvy in molecular genetics - come into play. A few of the modifier genes have been identified, but certainly not a majority.
QUOTE
An Ultrasound would readily detect elf or dwarf anatomy. However, looking at a karyotype produced by amniocentesis certainly wouldn't.
Elves and Dwarves are different at the protein level not just in proportions. An amnio should detect such anomalies easily.
QUOTE
Interesting choice there, since that disease is the one on which most of my research is focused. CF is a single gene disorder with multigenic associations. We can positively test for whether a patient will have CF due entirely to the fact that we've characterized the key gene. However, based upon that single genotype, we absolutely can NOT determine the severity of the disease. And really, a CF patient with a mild phenotype can live with minor symptoms for many times the life expectancy of a patient with a severe disease. It's those other subtle variants that really dictate the disease course.
I chose CF because it is possible to get a blocked pathway from the mother's side and a blocked pathway from the father's side and have a complete pathway between them because the pathways are blocked at different points. That is, with the right complementary genes you can actually be double positive for Cystic Fibrosis and still be "healthy." That meets Method's dubious criteria for something that we "can't test for." Does it meet yours?
-Frank
What you have described is allelic heterogeneity. CF is still a single gene mutation. What about locus heterogeneity? What about all the genes that aren't identified? What about epigenetic changes caused by ambient mana levels i.e. environmental factors?
I'd be more impressed if you could describe a prenatal test that accurately predicts adult height because thats a lot more relevant to the discussion. With height you are talking about a variety of genes on different chromosomes with variable expressivity and penetrance which are subject to imprinting (epigenetic changes) and environmental factors (nutrition). So if its so simple, why can't we predict height? Now lets take it one step further: how many genes need to change for a troll to be 2.5 meters tall?
As far as science = opinion: I guess thats true if you have no faith in objectivity. I'm just not that cynical. But then again that makes all our arguments moot since the very existence of DNA is a matter of opinion. If all science is opinion then nobody is ever right about anything, and I guess nobody is ever wrong. What a wonderful world. And I just decided a baby's sex is determined by how much ice cream the mother eats while pregnant. Hows that for science?
I'd be more impressed if you could describe a prenatal test that accurately predicts adult height because thats a lot more relevant to the discussion. With height you are talking about a variety of genes on different chromosomes with variable expressivity and penetrance which are subject to imprinting (epigenetic changes) and environmental factors (nutrition). So if its so simple, why can't we predict height? Now lets take it one step further: how many genes need to change for a troll to be 2.5 meters tall?
As far as science = opinion: I guess thats true if you have no faith in objectivity. I'm just not that cynical. But then again that makes all our arguments moot since the very existence of DNA is a matter of opinion. If all science is opinion then nobody is ever right about anything, and I guess nobody is ever wrong. What a wonderful world. And I just decided a baby's sex is determined by how much ice cream the mother eats while pregnant. Hows that for science?
Interesting discussion but then the Devs/Freelancers have demonstrated a broad lack of technical/scientific backgrounds in the devices/gear/plots/events they have published so far, I do not expect that trend to cease. 
It is a game not a RL Science/Technology based system, to me if they are able to create the various genewarez and biowarez the detection of a baby that will goblinize will be child's play with the level of the technology in 2070.
The Devs/Freelancers have deliberately kept things non specific in terms of science and technology in the areas their lack of background. Trying to derive specifics from such non specifics, is an exercise in Papal/Archbishop Canon debates on the number of Angels can Dance/Stand on a Head of Pin.
WMS
It is a game not a RL Science/Technology based system, to me if they are able to create the various genewarez and biowarez the detection of a baby that will goblinize will be child's play with the level of the technology in 2070.
The Devs/Freelancers have deliberately kept things non specific in terms of science and technology in the areas their lack of background. Trying to derive specifics from such non specifics, is an exercise in Papal/Archbishop Canon debates on the number of Angels can Dance/Stand on a Head of Pin.
WMS
QUOTE (the_dunner @ Jun 15 2008, 07:37 AM)
I'd prefer not to use that as the criteria. However, if that were the case, then, I'd have to say, "You've been told otherwise by the guy who wrote it."
Ok. I'd just like to how how when we can will likely be able to sequence a genome in 3 days for less then a thousand
(as of ~ 2012) it would still be possible some corp wouldn't have sunk 2 billion
to sequence 1,000,000 metahuman genomes of each sex to see which genes turn on during goblization in say... 1/4 of a million of each sex of each meta, and had computers which would make 'Gene Blue' cry run a comparison against genomes of humans who aren't meta and lived in mana similar environments to the test subjects? Cause holding patents on those genes would be priceless and the idea that a corp hasn't done this to allow for meta selection of offspring is... well surprising, as the return on investment would be well worth it.
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Jun 15 2008, 02:16 PM)
Ok. I'd just like to how how when we can will likely be able to sequence a genome in 3 days for less then a thousand
(as of ~ 2012) it would still be possible some corp wouldn't have sunk 2 billion to sequence 1,000,000 metahuman genomes of each sex to see which genes turn on during goblization in say... 1/4 of a million of each sex of each meta, and had computers which would make 'Gene Blue' cry run a comparison against genomes of humans who aren't meta and lived in mana similar environments to the test subjects? Cause holding patents on those genes would be priceless and the idea that a corp hasn't done this to allow for meta selection of offspring is... well surprising, as the return on investment would be well worth it.
(as of ~ 2012) it would still be possible some corp wouldn't have sunk 2 billion
to sequence 1,000,000 metahuman genomes of each sex to see which genes turn on during goblization in say... 1/4 of a million of each sex of each meta, and had computers which would make 'Gene Blue' cry run a comparison against genomes of humans who aren't meta and lived in mana similar environments to the test subjects? Cause holding patents on those genes would be priceless and the idea that a corp hasn't done this to allow for meta selection of offspring is... well surprising, as the return on investment would be well worth it.Because you can't perform electronic analysis of either metagenes or magigenes. In order to identify these genes, you need to astrally perceive a living tissue, and look at the astral shadows of the DNA. (Presumably using a light microscope or a highly specialized spell.) Electronic devices can't "see" the shadows. In vitro PCR wouldn't replicate the shadows. (Just as, for example, it won't replicate methylation.)
Once you've managed to compile the data, the bioinformatics of it would be fairly trivial. However, compiling those data would be require an enormous number of man-hours from scientists who had the ability to astrally perceive and could somehow identify individual DNA base pairs. IMO, the fact that 41 metagenes have been identified over the course of the 60 years since the awakening is evidence of the enormity of the work that's been involved.
State of the Art 2063 made a much bolder case for genetic typing of metatypes. On pages 10 and 11 they dropped the idea that while all the genes weren't known, that they control genes were and had been for some time. When we made the section in Augmentation there was special discussion to retcon things into being less grasped than it was implied that they were in that earlier book.
-Frank
-Frank
QUOTE (the_dunner @ Jun 15 2008, 01:46 PM)
Because you can't perform electronic analysis of either metagenes or magigenes. In order to identify these genes, you need to astrally perceive a living tissue, and look at the astral shadows of the DNA. (Presumably using a light microscope or a highly specialized spell.) Electronic devices can't "see" the shadows. In vitro PCR wouldn't replicate the shadows. (Just as, for example, it won't replicate methylation.)
Once you've managed to compile the data, the bioinformatics of it would be fairly trivial. However, compiling those data would be require an enormous number of man-hours from scientists who had the ability to astrally perceive and could somehow identify individual DNA base pairs. IMO, the fact that 41 metagenes have been identified over the course of the 60 years since the awakening is evidence of the enormity of the work that's been involved.
Once you've managed to compile the data, the bioinformatics of it would be fairly trivial. However, compiling those data would be require an enormous number of man-hours from scientists who had the ability to astrally perceive and could somehow identify individual DNA base pairs. IMO, the fact that 41 metagenes have been identified over the course of the 60 years since the awakening is evidence of the enormity of the work that's been involved.
Ok, good answer. Next question, this would imply a absence of correlation between the actual chemical makeup of the genetic information ie, ACGTTTACTGA and whether or not a particular segment of DNA will produce the proper astral shadows in the right conditions correct?
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Jun 15 2008, 05:18 PM)
Next question, this would imply a absence of correlation between the actual chemical makeup of the genetic information ie, ACGTTTACTGA and whether or not a particular segment of DNA will produce the proper astral shadows in the right conditions correct?
That's correct. Further, keep in mind even that in RL genetics, the actual order of the nitrogenous bases doesn't always dictate disease penetrance. (e.g. imprinting, histone acetylation, etc.)
QUOTE (the_dunner @ Jun 15 2008, 02:31 PM)
That's correct. Further, keep in mind even that in RL genetics, the actual order of the nitrogenous bases doesn't always dictate disease penetrance. (e.g. imprinting, histone acetylation, etc.)
I know which is why we're are developing advanced computers to model what is going on with molecule molecule interactions ie gene blue and its decendents, who by 2070 should have a perfect understanding of mundane genetics.
There is also the fact that goblinization has an environmental component. Some people with the correct genes might never goblinize.
As long as you stay in a Low Mana zone, yeah.
Otherwise, you have Officers that either might stay the same or change at a moment's notice just like the bad old days of the Years of Chaos.
Otherwise, you have Officers that either might stay the same or change at a moment's notice just like the bad old days of the Years of Chaos.
Could make an interesting run.
Some high-ping corp family has identified certain genetic traits in their child, that could indicate potential goblinization.
As good human bigots, they decide this would be an unbearable shame (Probably Japanacorp), but at the same time, killing their own offspring would be bad press. So they set the child up in the proverbial magic tower of null-magic, using geomancy to divert as much magic influence as they can.
Naturally the competition doesn't know exactly whats going on. They just know there is a child locked up in a modern-day castle with huge magical rituals encirling it, enticing them irresistably to decide that whatever is inside would be more useful in their hands.
This is where the runners come in. Classic snatch job. If succesful, the runners have a child/teenager who has never been outside the compound and who might... at any point suitable for the GM... change into Ork, Troll or Drake manifestation at his leisure.
Now if its turning into Drake, then the recipient might be happy with their prize. If its an Ork or a Troll, they might not believe the runners have the right package. In both cases, all sorts of fun can ensue.
Does the family want the child back? - Does the child want to go back? - Will Johnson pay for "wrong" package?
Some high-ping corp family has identified certain genetic traits in their child, that could indicate potential goblinization.
As good human bigots, they decide this would be an unbearable shame (Probably Japanacorp), but at the same time, killing their own offspring would be bad press. So they set the child up in the proverbial magic tower of null-magic, using geomancy to divert as much magic influence as they can.
Naturally the competition doesn't know exactly whats going on. They just know there is a child locked up in a modern-day castle with huge magical rituals encirling it, enticing them irresistably to decide that whatever is inside would be more useful in their hands.
This is where the runners come in. Classic snatch job. If succesful, the runners have a child/teenager who has never been outside the compound and who might... at any point suitable for the GM... change into Ork, Troll or Drake manifestation at his leisure.
Now if its turning into Drake, then the recipient might be happy with their prize. If its an Ork or a Troll, they might not believe the runners have the right package. In both cases, all sorts of fun can ensue.
Does the family want the child back? - Does the child want to go back? - Will Johnson pay for "wrong" package?
Time to start modifying the bioinfomatics software to include this astral shadows stuff...
Would a series of "Detect Elf", "Detect Ork", "Detect[...X]" spells work on the fetus while it was still inside the womb? How developed would it have to be to get picked up by the spell?
The moment I need a grad degree in genetics to read DS is coming close, I know it! 
(right next to the degree in ballistics to read postsby Raygun and his lot)
Cheers,
Max
(right next to the degree in ballistics to read postsby Raygun and his lot)
Cheers,
Max
QUOTE (MaxHunter @ Jun 16 2008, 01:00 PM)
The moment I need a grad degree in genetics to read DS is coming close, I know it!
(right next to the degree in ballistics to read postsby Raygun and his lot)
Cheers,
Max
(right next to the degree in ballistics to read postsby Raygun and his lot)
Cheers,
Max
Well you've got at least one undergrad in genetics here, and I'd guess at least a few others from the sounds of it.
QUOTE (the_dunner @ Jun 15 2008, 02:31 PM)
That's correct. Further, keep in mind even that in RL genetics, the actual order of the nitrogenous bases doesn't always dictate disease penetrance. (e.g. imprinting, histone acetylation, etc.)
If being a orc for example is genetic + magic = win
Then what component of the genes is it?
Is it certain conformational folds the DNA takes which causes the right lense for mana to cast the astral shadows with?
Does the DNA have to have X proteins bound in Y spot to cause Z shape?
Because if there is mundane chemistry involved at all in the genetics of meta humans, then by 2070 we will have computers which can calculate it all, and tell you who has the potential to goblinize.
If however its the same handwaving they give to why you can't do spectroscopy on oricalcium then I got nothing.
P.S. I like option 1 better cause I can kinda at least sorta understand it. Option 2 seems like the easy way out.
QUOTE (MaxHunter @ Jun 16 2008, 02:00 PM)
The moment I need a grad degree in genetics to read DS is coming close, I know it!
(right next to the degree in ballistics to read postsby Raygun and his lot)
Cheers,
Max
(right next to the degree in ballistics to read postsby Raygun and his lot)
Cheers,
Max
He who has stopped learning has stopped living. Said the spider to the fly.
Hehe, I often myself in situations where I can refer to some tidbit of info I learned here at DS... Draws some peculiar looks when you happen to know stuff about explosives, guns, genetics, burglary, conning and whatnot.
Real easy to sound seriously paranoid when you point out weaknesses in the defensive layout of someones workplace...
DS seems to be my main source of news of wiz tech aswell. Go DS!
Real easy to sound seriously paranoid when you point out weaknesses in the defensive layout of someones workplace...
DS seems to be my main source of news of wiz tech aswell. Go DS!
I won't claim that genetics is my strongest subject - in fact I hate biochemistry in all its insidious forms. But after 2 bachelor's degrees, a masters and 2 years of medical school not understanding genetics is not an option... 
Chemistry is the bane of my existence.
Well, isn't that a universal truth? - Doesn't death in the end come down to chemical processes?
Of course you can go deeper, or higher to explain life, but isn't it all chemistry?
Of course you can go deeper, or higher to explain life, but isn't it all chemistry?
Yeah the age old swindle. I hated math but loved biology so I made that my career. Then I realized:
Biology = Chemistry = Physics = Math
Doh!!!
Biology = Chemistry = Physics = Math
Doh!!!
QUOTE (Mordinvan @ Jun 16 2008, 04:58 PM)
If being a orc for example is genetic + magic = win
Then what component of the genes is it?
Then what component of the genes is it?
Keep in mind that if it hasn't appeared in a sanctioned publication it's not true. Also keep in mind that SR books are not meant to be medical texts, so in the interests of word count and approachability, they're not written like them.
There are two divergent theories associated with the DNA structures involved in metagenetics and magigenetics.
The first theory is that there is a third strand of the DNA helix which is entirely astral. That strand is what actually dictates metatype, magical ability, et al. In the presence of an adequate mana background count, this strand can be expressed. In its absence, it cannot. This theory obviously requires the presence of additional "proteins" and nuclear structures that exist only on the astral plane.
The second theory is that there are implicit features in an organism's aura that dictate the conformation of DNA tertiary structures allowing for expression of metagenes. In the presence of an adequate mana background count, these conformations are assumed. If the resultant tertiary structure allows for the expression of a gene, then it's expressed. In the absence of both the requisite mana background count and the resultant coding gene, they are not expressed.
It's possible that both of these theories are true, just that different metagenes are expressed through the two contrasting mechanisms. In the game world, there is ample evidence to support both of these. Of the identified metagenes, some were identified by techniques associated with each of these two theories.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.