Hello all!

I have a few questions about the new Matrix.

After running a Matrix Heavy Mission the characters was fighting a bunch of chipheads in real life while a whole army of hostile agents where terrorizing the Wireless Matrix around them.

Almost all had their Comlinks on Hidden Mode but connected to each other in a private network (in order to send quick messages by thought etc..), one Technomancer was acting like a DMZ and re-routing all traffic to the matrix and was ready to face any hostile agents he might encounter.

My questions are:

Can then agents (and how hard is it) find the Hidden Comlinks of the other players (and therefore hack there comlinks)?

I assume that the players lock there Comlink to only accept the other players Comlink ID:s, But can the agents still spoof the other players comlink ID:s and hack them (as a Normal hack)?

Oh! one more thing how hard do you guys say if would be to track down a person if you had his SIN?

If they suspect that there are hidden comm-links, yes. Electronic Warfare + Scan (15). Nearly impossible to do in practice.

See above



I wouldn't allow it, no. But, if the agents get one of the networked commlinks (using the above EW + Scan test), then they could spoof that ID to try and deal with the others in the network.



Depends on the GM and the location. I think tracking down a single person within the a known city shouldn't be too hard if you have a SIN. Definately an extended test and since I dislike making the hacker the star of the show more so than necessary, I'd probably force some RL investigation as well. For example, you'd get some places where his SIN had been used to purchase things and you'd have to speak with the owners to see if they know other information about the target.

I have given the SIN tracking some thought and the hacker pretty much needs to hack different stores where the target is assumed to be using, as no store will ever store a SIN/Shopping history in public.

I assume that security companies store SINs on everyone scanned who passes through “high security areas� and store them in databases accessible to law enforcement and therefore makes for prime hacking targets, but probably very secure (second only after banks and some Megacorp databases).

I guess that a normal tracking rules could work when using SIN tracking but much much slower (only targeting many low security targets) to save gameplay time.

As was said, Scan and Electronic Warfare does that. Not that hard in my limited experience, for someone dedicated to that - like a hacker on matrix overwatch.

And of course such a commlink network can be hacked - if that wasn't possible, then the hackers couldn't enter corp networks either since those do only allow authorised IDs as well.

In this scenario, you are searching for specific nodes (You "know" they have comlinks, you are searching for specific nodes rather than all hidden ones). That is an extended test against a threshold of 4 with an intervall of only one combat round. Agents can handle that.

Not to mention that team tactics (cover fire, delaying actions, distractions, camouflage) can buy a hacker more time in such situations.

Fuchs! You are supposed to believe that hackers can do nothing in combat! Stop insinuating that it is the teams fault if they can´t!


(Just kidding. I agree.)

As I understand the text, if there are actively broadcasting nodes in the area the threshold is 15 to find any hidden nodes, whether you know they're there or not.

I think that "If you know what you are looking for" is tailored for the situation described above - commlinks of people you see.

Hackers can do a lot in combat. You wrap them up in Ballistic Cloth, put them in the armoured-up powered wheelchair, and use them as mobile cover!

That' hilarious...especially considering our Rigger/Hacker is basically doing this same thing with a Horseman carriage.

Just because I can physically see every wi-fi router in the room does not make it any easier to pick out the single non-broadcasting one from the background noise of the other two dozen.

It's often easier to find something you know is there, compared to finding something you don't know is there.

If you don't know it's there the implication of the text is that you don't get to roll at all.

'Even if you know what you're looking for....' BBB p225.

There is no mention of getting to make any sort of test if you don't know...

Finding a single non-broadcasting network should be trivial, Threshold (4) in this instance, because all the packets you are able to snoop belong to the hidden node. In an area full of active nodes there will be thousands of packet streams on dozens of rotating frequencies all of which have to be eliminated before you can start to find the packets from the hidden node. And then if you have multiple hidden nodes you somehow have to separate the orphaned packets from each other before you can start identifying the individual nodes.

From my point of view a threshold of 15 is way too easy. Under 30 seconds unless the hacker glitches. Which is actually my main gripe with the Matrix rules. They aren't opposed tests so the defender never had any ability to protect himself, he always looses it's just a question of how long it will take.

The very next sentence states that "scanning for hidden nodes in general" is possible, so you can make a test if you don't know if something is there.



The active defense comes into play when the actual hacking starts. Unwired may also give some extended jamming rules.

If you're looking for hidden nodes in a crowded area you can definatly raise the threshold to more than 15. Lately my technomancer has been far away from busy wireless areas (and it sucks...), so any wireless activity is really easy to find. Considering if there's a signal its probably 1 of 10 in a 100 km radius (and the other 9 all belong to me or my team).

You can't "Lock your Commlink to only XY & Z", because all they need to do is sniffer the communications, get the ID from your teammates commlink (since it has to be broadcast so your commlink knows to accept it), and they can then spoof/hack into your commlink.

If you're wireless you can be hacked. Its just a matter of how difficult you make it for the hacker. 6 Firewall, 6 Analyze and its going to be pretty difficult for them to get to you without raising an alarm (unless they have hours and hours to work at it).

and at that point they move on if your a random target...

There should be no magical stealth for omni-directional signals running a common protocol and comming from a known physical location.

- Triangulate the source of the signal
- Check if it comes from your target
- Check if it responds to a PING
- Analyse the data stream

It just takes a bit longer to leave out the second step and analyse all signals.

and if its a unknown physical location?

also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency-hop...spread_spectrum

That isn't really an active defense though. You get a roll to see if they trigger an alert but it doesn't prevent them hacking in. If the hacker takes their time looking for an exploit you only get to roll once to spot them. From the hackers POV this Roxxors and from the SysOps POV this Suxxors.

(I feel all dirty having said that....)

All that makes things harder. But in combat use, you can narrow down the search area sufficiently to justify the easier search. All non-standard technical methods to make things harder have to get rules. At least for encryption better rules have been announced for Unwired.

as they say, any treshold can be reached if one have infinite number of rolls

but infinity and physics do not play nice together...

Also, I'm fairly certain that a Hidden node isn't "not broadcasting," it's just not broadcasting its identity.

For example, my wireless router at home doesn't broadcast its SSID. However, when my friends come over with their devices, they can find it just fine.

and that is a hidden node that you know is there...

now try and find one that you dont know is there without going for something like kismet:
http://www.kismetwireless.net/

I´m not dumping that kind of money on Ping. WiFi-Scan 6 as to deliver the goods so to speak.

Precisely.

Nice link btw. I particularly like the caveat 'given time' when referring to sniffing out non-broadcasting networks. Yes you can do it by examining the packets but it ain't easy. And it gets massively harder the more broadcasting networks you have to ignore and ludicrously so when there are multiple hidden ones.

Kismet is also a clear example of a 'hacking tool', the sort of thing you can't distribute at all in Germany any more. A brief look at the Readme tells me I have a couple of systems here I could probably install it on but it would take some effort and I know for a fact that all of my friends would barf at the first hurdle there. Heck one of them works for the Unix Systems group at a major UK bank and calls me for help installing linux.

Point?

Oh, yes...

Kismet is open source. Free to anyone that can be bothered to download it and has the skill to install and operate it. Why no open-source in SR? I hear whispers about Warez in Unwired but sweet FA about OSS. Nobody sells hacking tools. That's madness. Decent hackers wouldn't trust warez either, you need the source to truly get the most from your software and ensure your system isn't vulnerable.

Ahh, ranting again, sorry....

I've done.¹ What makes you think script-kiddies aren't themselves exploited?<sup>2


1</sup>Of course, it goes without saying that I did it more than enough years ago to be beyond any statute of limitations applicable to the alleged act(s).
²Whatever other semi-legal things may or may not be in my allegedly sordid past, I have never sold 'sploits to script-kiddies.

Shall I rephrase?

No, self-respecting hacker, buys hacking tools.

Ergo the market for decent ones isn't commercially viable.

Have you been paying attention to recent developments in the black market, more specifically its commercialization and involvement of organised crime.

They sell hacking tools like, right now dude.

i suspect that RMS got assasinated by a proto-runner from fuchi...

False. Tools themselves are generally free, minus obscure or custom ones I can think of... but exploits and vulnerability information (I qualify it more as 'data' or info then 'tools', but it boils down to the same: ones and zeros) are always, always in high demand in white, grey and black markets.

I've been exposed to all three.

what is the difference between "passive"and "hidden"? Why bother with passive if hidden does the same thing? Why bother with passive if you can still communicate with others via hidden? I was under the assumption that anyone attempting to contact a hidden node/pan/whatever would be blocked. If communication via hidden is possible, then passive is a useless setting. There would be no difference.

Active: Other wireless devices can see you with a free action, freely access any "public-accessible" data on the device, and attempt to log on or hack their way in to access the rest of the device

Passive: Other wireless devices can see you with a free action, but your "public-accessible" data is no longer free access; it is subject to a log on protocol or hacking attempt like the rest of the device.

Hidden: Other wireless devices can't see you unless you pre-authorize them to or they detect your broadcasts through Electronic Warfare. Until they do see you, they can't attempt to hack in.

Wireless Mode Off: Other wireless devices can't see you because you're not broadcasting. They can't hack you remotely because your transmitter isn't listening.

in other words, active is like walking around with a neon sign saying who you are. passive is handing out cards to anyone that asks. hidden is actively refusing to hand out cards unless they have a damn good reason (cops and similar usually do).

I would have described Hidden as keeping the cards tucked in your underwear and refusing to admit you have any cards. As far as most people are concerned you don't have a card, but a lucky and determined pickpocket may end up getting one anyway.

heh, maybe so

Does [Stealth software Rating]+EWar add to the Threshold for detecting the node too? Assuming you have an Agent with an EWar autosoft and Stealth software available.

Thank you for the responses. The explinations given here, in accordance with the rules makes passive sound pointless. For example: if a character doesn't want to be bothered by spam icons in a public place, he could go passive or hidden. If a person wants to be open for public communication, he could go active or passive. If a character is on a run, he would go hidden. The only thing that passive does is block the spam that would distract causing distraction penalties. The only time distraction is a problem is during a run, and the runner would have it on hidden. So I see no logical use for useing the passive setting at all.

I've played the game where the hidden setting does allow you to sent information out but not allow to recieve it without an free action. If a node is hidden how does a friendly send a message to it? If a friendly can send a wi-fi signal to it while hidden, that wi-fi can be detected at the node point, whether or not the node is on, and a hacker can crack the wifi and discover the node when the hidden node recieves the signal. I don't see how you can have it both ways: both running hidden and freely communicate.

You need passive so you can respond to requests for your SIN by law enforcement seamlessly so as not to get arrested. If you use hidden, you don't present ID when confronted by the police, with obvious consequences in a world in which not having ID is a crime.

The mode with no use to players is active.

..except in some areas where it's obligatory (corporate facilities where everyone needs name tags).

In normal circumstances it's true that a PC won't ever switch on active mode, even if it means they don't get a booty call from the orc at the bar. Actually, that's another reason not to be on active mode.

Active mode is useful for runners if that's the mode of the commlink they want to hack in.

Like Germany?

I did not see the ruling on that. What are the advantages? What are the penalties if you don't?

Also, a person commented on being responisve to police, comlink on passive. If you are on a run, why answer to police, as your doing something criminal anyway?

I guess I'm missing the biggest question of all: how does communication work with friendlies when you and they are set to hidden?

It's helpful if your target commlink is in active mode. Not everything has to be used by a runner to be useful for a runner.



Because at times you're posing for a regular citizen while doing something criminal.

YMMV, but runners spend significant amounts of 'a game session' not actually doing something actively and obviously illegal. For example, during all the legwork you better have an ID. Also if you are on a smuggling run, ID is a must.

Conversely, if you have an assault rifle and are shooting at someone, you do want hidden.

RE: hidden comms, I assume it works exactly like hidden wireless networks 'appear' to work today. The hidden commlinks broadcast to each other (which is how you can find them with a scan action) and if they get no response assume that the other guy isn't there any more.

I find that the Matrix section in SR4 takes for granted that a player knows how technology works in the real world. I am computer stupid. I am barely able to post this message. I have no idea how hidden wireless networks actually work. BUt they can today, I guess they can "later". I just find that a 15+ threshold to find hidden nodes seems prohibitively high, throwing the hacker back into the world of "only Matrix Runs" use, and making them once again somewhat weak in the field. The fact the test is extended softens the blow, but that 1 combat turn interval is a killer. The team who I run can kill all the baddies in the span it takes the hacker to find thier nodes.

I imagine them as a sort of cross between unnamed websites, closed wireless networks, and mobile phones with unlisted numbers. That may not be technologically correct, but I think conceptually it works.

I'll pimp frank's matrix rules again as I do endlessly like a clockwork automation - they've got a couple of advantages for you that don't apply to everyone.

A) They explain their entire premise in one document and even explain what they mean with terms like 'server' Sure its a long (40 page) document, but that helps with the 'computer stupid' bit.

B) It works exactly like magic does in basically every respect, which gives you a great reference that you are already familiar with. Except for 'matrix' range actions, but that is pretty damn obvious. And it walks through the ranges in case I only think it is obvious.

C) It enables hackers to quickly and effectively act in combat exactly like mages (except not quite well) while giving them very fast resolution legwork powers (brilliant)

http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=28144...3c348c892c63474

The same things on dumpshock I just find it easier to reference that thread as it is sticked.

Regards,

Cthulhu

One thing I like about Frank's rules with respect to Commlinks and "Hidden Mode" is that there isn't one. Instead, you have to use your Electronic Warfare skil to actually try and conceal the datastreams you're broadcasting to the few other devices you're actually still trying to communicate with while staying hidden -- A great use for a skill that's rather underutilized in the core rules.