Me too

You will note that in terms of 'realism' I likened Equilibrium to the chambara/Hong Kong-type martial arts movies...

That does not change the fact that one individual - I forget the name - has specifically developed fighting techniques geared towards the defense and offense with guns... Must... try... to remember the darned name!

Kage

You mean in response to the first sentence where Kage says it's about as realistic as another made-up movie martial art, or the second sentence where he said that it doesn't exist like it does in the movie but it does exist as a form of entertainment/exercise if nothing else?

Edit: Oops, looks like Kage himself responded before I could find the link.

Unfortunately, I didn't know what chambara was and that kept me from inferring to it as a stylization of real martial arts. That's why I had to refer to your "Erm, which I guess is to say that it does actually exist, just not in the way that it is represented in Equilibrium" statement, which seems like a pretty far grasp to me.

Like I said, there are several real close range firearm techniques. You're probably thinking of Col. Rex Applegate's Point Shooting technique, which dismisses the use of sighted fire on particularly close range targets. It's nothing like the stylized Gun Kata.

How about them both? Fortunately, your first reply did not in any way refer to whether gun kata exists IRL and in what form, but only to Raygun's "The whole concept of Gun Kata is movie fiction." and the way you (weirdly) interpreted this to mean that Shadowrun can't be (movie) fiction. Probably due to the fact that you wish to argue with Raygun about anything you can, since your views of the preferred level of fiction are so different. (This wannabe-analysis from a bit over a year of similar very short messages full of eye-rolling that are obviously meant to be aggravating that pop up in quite a few threads Raygun has posted in.)

Technically he's correct; done with exacting correctness, every technique is unstoppable. Of course, that rather depends on your opponent doing exactly the wrong thing, your technique being unhumanly perfect, lighting/ground conditions being optimal, you being in perfect shape, and a bajillion other factors that aren't bloody likely to occur together in the real world.

First point: Chambara defines the style of martial arts movies where while there is a basis in reality (i.e. real fighting styles) the application is often represented as superhuman or supernatural. This is generally used in reference to the 'Hong Kong kung fu' movies such as, say, Iron Monkey. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon is also technically chambara, though upper class.

Thus, again, I was merely pointing out that it was about as plausible as any of those films (to which many RPGs allude to) but was based around a core of truth. That was all... Wasn't quite expecting it to get toasty.

Second point: That's possible, though that name doesn't quite ring a bell at the moment. It would have come up in conversation ages ago and, to be honest, while I practice various martial arts they do not dominate my waking life. Ooh. Not suggesting that is the case with anyone else, just using that as a bit of a 'get out clause'... I'll have to go and have a chat with the person I remember mentioning it, if I can find them. But thanks for the URL. I shall check it out.

Third point: Again, yes I know. That was the point in the chambara reference which is about as much to real life martial arts (though sometimes that can scarily 'supernatural' in itself) as Equilibrium was to the use of firearms in martial arts. Wasn't quite expecting people to jump on the use of "kata" as the suggestion that people would use them in a real life combat situation...

However, compared to that one also has to remember that kata - poomsae, whatever - are representative of formalised combat as much as the swifter pre-arranged sparring types employed by many traditional martial arts. It is not 'just' moves randomly placed together.

Bringing this back to Shadowrun, then depending on the individual style and preference of the GM it is an entirely plausible martial art form. My god, they've got cyber-fighting styles, why not the evolution of this? Yes, a bit hokey but SR is science-fantasy after all... But for those who like a bit of versimilitude then it is interesting to note that it is based in reality.

Kage

DVD (borrowed) and chapter advance button.

If you'd read the rest of what he said, then what you're saying is what he's saying.

If all things are at the optimum, you are at your best, your opponent is at their worst, etc, etc., then this technique is unstoppable. If you are at your best and your opponent is at their worst, then any technique you use is unstoppable.

I guess the reason why my language was a little strong was because I've heard this conversation about Gun Kata a few times in the past. I just wanted to nip it in the bud, from the point of view of a realistic, effective fighting technique. It's the whole shooting at things you literally can't see that bothers me. That totally defies every bit of firearm discipline I've ever been taught.

The reason why I perhaps went too far was because I don't even like the idea of Gun Kata being eluded to as even slightly real, as people could very easily hurt themselves in the process of finding that out. Not that I have to worry too much about that in this particular forum. Just erring on the side of caution, I guess.

No prob. I'd be interested in hearing about it. The Point Shooting technique is only one of probably a couple of dozen respected close combat techniques, but it is by far the most popular real technique that could be compared to Gun Kata, as body positioning is very important in its use, thus, something akin to a basic kata is used to teach it. You do, however, need to have visual points of reference between you, the gun and the target, unlike the way Gun Kata is portrayed in the movie.

I don't disagree at all with its portrayal and use in Shadowrun. Personal opinions aside, I fully understand that people might want to make a game that includes this kind of fighting style. In fact, Funk has (as linked above by Aus). More power to you. All I'm saying is that Gun Kata isn't real and is extremely unlikely to ever be because it is unsafe in several ways and defies basic principles of gun handling. That's all.

In the scene you are probably referring to, he stood there listening for a while as the targets tried to decide if he was still alive. With some practice, you can determine the source of a sound very accurately and only suffer the +8(+4 if you pay the price) blindfire penalty.

How much skill it takes to reliably hit something that you only can detect with your secondary sense can be decided in SR by the rules and a probability chart.

I've always found it amazing how many of the more interesting discussions have generated out of a bit of misunderstanding at the first... On the bright side I feel that it means much kudos to the director of Equilibrium. He hit just the right nerve with many people that he inspired them! The downside is, as you later say, it involves guns. Actually, 'violence' would be, perhaps, more apt but there we go...

I must at this point add the cinematic equivalent of dry ice here... the use of 'effective' and 'fighting technique' is so tied up in personal opinion, individual ability and context that it becomes difficult to separate the various features out.

I've never fired a significant - inasmuch as the term is appropriate - firearm, so I'm not entirely sure of the etiquette involved here. In the context of the explanatory logic of the film I would imagine that 'saturation fire' would be a key term? Perhaps?

Ah, that is fair enough. I'm reminded of an advanced self-defence class which concentrated on knife defence. A class where only 'black belts' ( ) were taught relevant self defences. Only permanent markers were used and the smiles of satisfaction at appropriately performed techniques were widespread on the day in question. But so too were the grimaces when people realised how much ink they'd actually got on them...

If it is actually a different individual, I'll let you know. If it's the same person I'll let you know! I'm just intrigued, ultimately.

Another intriguing point... That URL calls...

In many ways the flaw in the representation in the film is the 'cool' feature. The idea that rather specific techniques can cover numerous environmental situations. I'm sure that even a gross analysis of, say, FBI case files would show the inherent weakness of this...

...But as a 'cool' bit of imagery that inspires interesting RPG. Well, we get the point

Oh, definitely. Not much more to say there... Well, other than shadowrunners like many 'adventurers' have that wonderful positon of 'suspension of disbelief' which allows the to do this kind of combat...

Kage

As tanka said, it's +2 for using astral perception to perform a nonmagical activity. However, the smoke is also slightly visible on the astral plane (but not as obstructive as on the physical plane), imposing only +1 for "light smoke" or +2 for "thick smoke". A list of astral perception visibility modifiers is in MITS around page 80 or so, if I remember correctly.

So his TN's would be at +3 or +4, depending on how you classify the smoke. I'd call the smoke from a grenade "thick smoke" and thus assign +4.