So, about a week ago I was lucky enough to find the Crying Freeman manga at a local library. One of the Crying Freeman episodes actually was built around the idea that if a group of trained warriors could somehow get their hands on some World War II era SMGs in 8mm Nambu, they'd be able to take over the whole of Japan, because antiquated SMGs in 8mm Nambu are the absolute pwn.

It made me laugh because the conventional wisdom is that 8mm Nambu sucks and yet at the same time in anime and manga we often see it fetishized as somehow being uber. I remember an episode of Gatekeepers where someone uses an WWII souveneir sidearm in 8mm Nambu to vanquish an extra-dimensional monster.

Anyway, as far as the particular SMG is concerned, a character even commented how they supposedly out preformed modern SMGs, whatever the hell that's supposed to mean when you're stuck throwing 8mm Nambu.

If you had to stat 8mm Nambu for SR, how would you go about doing it?

Personally, using SR3 rules, I think I'd go with 6L. I figure that the Czeka light pistol is probably supposed to be in 7.62x25 Tokarvev or 9x18 mm, and probably 8mm Nambu is moreso that than 4L, which I consider to be more like a .25.

For SR4, I would call 8mm Nambu a 4P weapon chassis. I don't know how or why anyone would think those things outperformed moder weaponry, but whatever.

My best guesses is that it either has to do with nostalgic recollections of fighting the corrupt and pathetic feudal levies of Chiang Kai-Shek; or it's Antique Syndrome. The first because if you have something shitty like 8mm Nambu and your opponents are the fucking warlords who work for Chiang Kai-Shek, then the fact that you at least have food, ammunition, and a pay check means that you will chop through unholy hordes of your even more bullshit opponents - making your lame ass weapons look fucking awesome (as opposed to today when everyone and their daughter has an AK and it doesn't much matter what equipment you have). The second because if you have any object from a long time ago that still works it will be a fucking masterpiece that is astoundingly resilient. And a lot of people will note that things built today break all the time, but everything they have from 60 years ago still works, forgetting for the moment that they built an ass tonne of stuff sixty years ago and almost all of it broke.

-Frank

It's pretty much the same with the Luger 9mm, which has been portrayed as a kickass heav pistol in German SR books (don't ask; the SR3.d Cannon Companion had a numer of weapons that would give you brain burns of astouding size). Or the 1920s Tommygun. Never mind that modern weaponry is pretty much on par or superior to these weapons. It's about Style.

It's, basically, the same as supposed Katana uberness. Fact is, a Katana is NOT a superior sword, especially compared to the late middle ages/early renaissance Sabers and Swords of Europe. The samurai in total was vastly inferior to even only moderatly effective modern troops of the 1700s. But here it's glorified and given an extra P of damage, just because it's cool.

Actually, in 4th ed Katanas have the same damage code as a regular two-handed sword--they just cost more and have a lower availability rating. To me that perfectly represents popular weapon with identical performance: You see more of them on the street (4 Availability vs 8 ), but you pay more for the fashion statement. (1,000 vs 750 )

When you consider that the standard 2-handed sword is described as having monowire on it's edges and the katana isn't, that does make it seem a little uber--but only in the fluff text, and only by omission.

Oh, and Wounded Ronin, was that a Black Heaven/Kachou Ohji reference in the thread title?

Interesting links about that :
Katana vs Rapier
There is not best sword

8mm Nambu... it definitely sucks. And back then if you asked the Japanese to make anything automatic it was bound to have issues, so yes please send me a gang armed with "Nambu SMG's" and we will have a party over their corpses, as magazines fall out, rounds get stuck in the barrel etc.

Very much so. The joke being that 8mm is apparently the "Ultimate Weapon".

Back when I used to play Return To Castle Wolfenstein, I used to say ".45 ACP saves the space" because of all the weapons I found the tommy gun to be the most effective weapon for fighting bosses, since it did heaps of damage per hit while at the same time not suffering from the awkward handling issues which often made the more advanced weapons semi-pointless.

ya know i just noticed that myself and thought it was awesome too

Each 8mm Nambu bullet contains the bound soul of a samurai warrior. If fired by someone who is true to the code of Bushido the projectile will transform into a fully-armored samurai in mid flight and slice the target in half with a single diagonal cut. This works particularly well if the shooter calls out the full name of the attack before firing.

Very much by omission. As I understand it the reasoning for katana's being reasonably hardcore in SR is because of the recent wave of Japanese imperialism, which resulted in a resurgence in popularity of the katana, first amongst military officers, and then amongst everyone else in Japan. As a result Japanacorps started developing much more advanced techniques for producing them, and so the modern katana, circa 2070, came to be. Still inferior to a monosword (same damage, but needing two hands), and more expensive because of the work that goes into making them, it is, none the less, superior to any standard blade by virtue of the extra development it has undergone (pretty much the point that guy was making in the second of the two links Blade posted: http://www.thearma.org/essays/nobest.htm).

The monosword is actually one handed. The katana is properly two handed. So your choices are: get a regular one handed sword like a machete or a scimitar, upgrade it to modern technology to get an additional -1 AP, or upgrade it to a hand and a half sword to get the same -1 AP. Don't have a problem there.

-Frank

Huh, your right--it's doesn't specifically say that the monofiliment sword is two-handed. I guess I just assumed because they described it as a broadsword. Historically, there were one-handed broadswords, but today people generally think of Conan when they use the term, so given the devs apparent lack of IRL weapon knowledge...

...anyway, it's still a matter of omission. The book may not say that it's two handed, but it doesn't say it's one-handed either--and I thought I saw a table in the Aresenal preview that listed Monoswords and Katanas as examples of two-handed weapons--the one on dual-wielding penalties/bonuses?

Oh well, I'm gonna go cue up the final battle from Black Heaven and rock the f__k out.

That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Bastard Sword" bullshit that's going on in the d20 system right now. Katanas deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.

I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine katana in Japan for 2,400,000 Yen (that's about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my katana.

Japanese smiths spend years working on a single katana and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind.

Katanas are thrice as sharp as European swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a katana can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a katana could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.

Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Japan? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Samurai and their katanas of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the katanas first because their killing power was feared and respected.

So what am I saying? Katanas are simply the best sword that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for Katanas:

(One-Handed Exotic Weapon)
1d12 Damage
19-20 x4 Crit
+2 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon)
2d10 Damage
17-20 x4 Crit
+5 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Katanas in real life, don't you think?

tl;dr = Katanas need to do more damage in d20, see my new stat block.

-

That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Katana" bullshit that's going on in the d20 system right now. Bastard swords deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.

I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine bastard sword in Norway for 15,000 Euros (that's about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my bastard sword.

Viking smiths spend hours working on a single bastard sword and metallurgically purify it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind.

Bastard swords are thrice as strong as European swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a katana can cut through, a bastard sword can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a bastard sword could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.

Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering medieval Europe? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined vikings and their bastard swords of destruction. Even in the Napoleonic War, French soldiers targeted the men with the bastard swords first because their killing power was feared and respected.

So what am I saying? Bastard swords are simply the best sword that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for Bastard Swords:

(One-Handed Exotic Weapon)
1d12 Damage
19-20 x4 Crit
+2 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon)
2d10 Damage
17-20 x4 Crit
+5 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Bastard Swords in real life, don't you think?

tl;dr = Bastard Swords need to do more damage in d20, see my new stat block.

-

That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Bastard Sword" bullshit that's going on in the d20 system right now. Macuahuitls deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.

I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine macuahuitl in Tenochtitlan for six bags of beans and a llama (that's about $55) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my macuahuitl.

Aztec smiths spend days working on a single macuahuitl and embed up to a million pieces of obsidian to produce the finest blades known to mankind.

Macuahuitls are thrice as sharp as European swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a macuahuitl can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a macuahuitl could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.

Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Aztlan? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Jaguar Warriors and their macuahuitls of destruction. Even in the Mexican-American War, American soldiers targeted the men with the macuahuitls first because their killing power was feared and respected.

So what am I saying? Macuahuitls are simply the best sword that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for Macuahuitls:

(One-Handed Exotic Weapon)
1d12 Damage
19-20 x4 Crit
+2 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon)
2d10 Damage
17-20 x4 Crit
+5 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Macuahuitls in real life, don't you think?

tl;dr = Macuahuitls need to do more damage in d20, see my new stat block.

-Frank

4chan copypasta is bad for your health.

Hell just plan 4chan is bad for your health.

If you know what it is, it's already too late.

bah, i would claim that any kind of web forum is bad for ones health

Internet communities are toxic and contagious by nature. Still, 4chan is special. And of course we do not talk about /b/.

i wonder, could it be turned onto some kind of psycotropic attack?

Where do you think the original Crash Virus came from?

When a Mommy AI and a Daddy AI hate each other a whole bunch...

Erhm ... no.

Slightly more elaboratly:

The Europeans were indeed considering invading Japan not worth the huge bloodshed it would case. This was more due to the mountainous terrain and the islands' huge number of professional soldiers, and less due to their sharp swords (which instantly loose a firefight anyway). Also, back in the day, the favoured means of conquering was to bombard coastal cities with long-range ship batteries until they gave in. The Hinterland usually was left pretty much untouched, to be conquered only after the colonial powers had consolidated their hold on the coast (and trade) and built up enough troops there.

In Japan, it wasn't deemed worth the effort, as the country had few ressources and little else to offer. Portuguese, then later Dutch, Brits and Americans set up trade posts and primarily sold the Japanese stuff for gold (Muskets and later rifles were in very high demand among Samurai, because they realised how useful they were compared to swords). However, int he Great Game of that age, this was a most unimportant venture compared to the immense investments made in China, India, Africa and the Americas by the European colonial powers.

Also, yes, a Katana-wielder was a prime target in WW2. Not so much for their uber killing skills though (Katana loses versus machine gun), but for being an officer. Officers always are prime targets in war. An Officer is the heart and brains of any military unit. Kill the commander, and you throw the troops into chaos, making them all the easier to dispose of.

On damage dealing, I always find daggers are hugely undervalued. But then again, realistically, if used as intended and the target is in range, all bladed weapons are fairly instantly deadly.

Thank you hermit for clearing up that misinformation.

First rule of a gunfight.

Bring a gun.

Hermit, your history books clearly have a very different version of medieval Europe than mine do. I'm especially interested to learn more about your medieval America.

It's in Northern Germany.

BAKERO! You obviously know nothing of small unit tactics. The officer with the kitana would walk in front of the men and use his kitana to deflect all the .30 cal machine gun rounds the marines were trying to suppress them with. Then the imerpial army guys would tlak behind the officer and tbe totlaly safe. That's why thye needed to kill the officer first, so that the .30 cal machine guns would work.

i wonder, are the typos intentional? they kinda add to the humor

Meh, should have been written in Engrish.

QUOTE (nezumi @ Jul 2 2008, 09:37 AM) *
Hermit, your history books clearly have a very different version of medieval Europe than mine do. I'm especially interested to learn more about your medieval America.




AWESOME!!!

Down down down in a burning ring of fire. . .

Ah, you obviously do not realize the true power of the Marines! They souped up the rate of fire of their machine guns to have a more stable firing platform(because, when they fired ALOT, the recoil was apparently negated), and one marine would sling the Machine Gun over his shoulder, and charge whole battalions of Japanese! And, when the Marine ran out of machinegun ammo, he would whip out his Colt .45, and when out of .45 ammo, he would whip out his kabarr. If his Kabarr was ripped from his hands, he would choke the Japanese individually until a warrior shopped off his hands. Then, he would keep fighting, biting the Japanese' jugulars out with his teeth! The Japanese Warrior Spirit has nothing on the pure insanity of a US Marine! Which is why the Japanese surrendered to an Army General aboard a Navy Ship...they were afraid if they surrendered to a Marine General on a Navy Ship, the Marines would eat their diplomats!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IwNVlpraR8

a .30 browning?!

I think everyone should keep one in the closet, along with 10,000 rounds of linked ammunition, in case of civil unrest.

Being a limey, may I keep a Bren Gun in my wardrobe instead? I promise to practice my drug-addled near-comatose woman act.

Um, yes. There were a lot of them about in WW2. Not everything needs the punch of a .50, or can carry the ammo for it. The .50cal is an HMG, and the .30 its MMG cousin. It's a .30 that they take up the bell tower in Saving Private Ryan, IIRC.

home defense at its "best"...

The .30 Browning Machine Gun (Model 1917 and Model 1919) were used for many, many years. And the M1919 was modified for .303 British Service for useage as armament in the infamous British Spitfires of the Battle of Britain.

Just like it's big brother, the .50 BMG Browning M2-HB, it is still in use in various places in the world, and will be for some time.

ah, being as unfamiliar as i am with these things, i got those two (the .30 and the .50) mixed up.

still, now that i think about it, the .50 should have a much larger ammo

.30 Machine Gun Round

.50 BMG Machine Gun Round

heh, im not one of those that can put matrix on hold and figure out what ammo the minigun is firing thanks to the casings on screen...

to drift back on topic, there is a topic right? there seem to be osme weapons that capture the imagination beyond their users. the Katana's been done to death here.
the tommy gun has a legendary place becausei t domminated the gangsters but in the military the accuracy was somewhat lacking.
Also the M-3 'grease gun' was just a good and much cheaper, but the rtommy gun grabs the imagination. probably there's something about the nambu too, of some wanna be gun nuts seriously underestimate the respond of the japanese police or SDF, just because much of Japan is peaceful

The Sten Gun was universally hated and loved.

Hated, because it was a piece of garbage thrown together for Can$3-Can$5 depending on the model and factory it came from. No finishing, the sights were WELDED on, jagged edges sawed through shoulder straps and clothing, and if you didn't have them on safe, they'd go off on a hard look.

Loved, because they were there. And you could throw them like a grenade.

Just don't drop it.

sure it was mass produced in pressed metal, like the Grease gun and the WW1 Chauchat.

I didn't know it was that cheap. the Tommy gun was $300.the grease gun was $18 and more versital.
But it was still useful and only the early models had the nasty tendency to jam 'on' when dropped. The Brits were still using the Sterling, god knows what model, in the 1980's

Yeah, the Grease Gun was the US version, a bit better made.

Yeah, but Sterlings were carefully-assembled works of art. Some Royal Navy Sterlings had polished wood and brass furniture, especially early war ones, before the need for speed in acquisition became an issue.

edit: My error, I was thinking of the Lanchester, not the Sterling.

Yeah, the Sterling was still better designed than the Sten.

And was the Stormtrooper weapon of choice, which puts it up a few notches on the "Wiz" scale!

The Lancaster was issued to the Navy primarily, IIRC.

Yeah, only the Navy used it, at least officially. I seem to recall reading years ago that some commandos used it instead of the Sten because of the 50 round magazine capacity. But that's from a long time ago, and may have been apocryphal. The whole Lanchester was just a MP28 anyway, with some British improvements. Like a bayonet lug, of all things.

Still, I'm a bit tempted to update the design and give it to a street sam with a mono-knife for a bayonet. It's just visually appealing.

It was a Spike Bayonet that was used for the Lancaster. The same one used in the SMLE No. 4 Rifle, actually.

What I'd set up for a character, if I were playing instead of GMing, would be an update of the De Lisle Silent Carbine. Semi-Auto Garand Mechanism instead of Lee-Enfield Bolt-Action, .45 Automatic Colt Caseless Pistol round, and a knife bayonet. Smartlinked, of course.