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Joker9125
Is it possible to have several people engage in the conjuring act at the same time? I was thinking of having my character hire about 10 NPC's with a conjuring skill of at least 3 giving me upwards of 30 dice and a buttload of karma. The goal wil be to summon a force 24 elemental. What would the rules for this be? Would they pool the dice or keep them seperate? What about drain would that be divided between the people? Good idea or bad?
mfb
ritual conjuring is an interesting idea, but there are--as of yet--no rules for it.
Jason Farlander
As mfb said, there are no rules for this. Even if they were, and even if you had 30 dice, you *still* only have a 2.31% chance of summoning a force 24 spirit.... and dont forget the 24D physical drain for every ritual member... mmm, delicious.
Moonstone Spider
Hmm, with each one also using spell pool you could get up to 60 dice which upgrades the odds a little more, but the drain would still be killing.
Namergon
Reminder : spell pool is just for that, spells. Spell pool is not usable for Conjuring purposes.
You can help with totem modifiers, Centering and spirit focus, however. A Power focus raising your Magic Attribute is of some help too, as any Sustaining focus with Increase Charisma Attribute...

Here is what I suggest to stay canon and nonetheless use a team to conjure a spirit:
- one person of the team is the conjurer, the others will only help him.
- the team can help him study the particular spirit he aims at conjuring (such preliminary study can earn him some benefit for conjuring itself, at the GM discretion).
- the team can try to use magic to make the conjurer a better conjurer : increase his Charisma Attribute through (Ritual) Sorcery for instance.
- they can help him concentrate during the long ritual (if elemental spirit is conjuring for instance), and help him use Centering if relevant.
- they can protect him during the ritual, so that he won't be disturbed nor harmed.
Prospero
Not to mention splash water on him to keep him awake... Conjuring a force 24 elemental would take a good 24 hrs of straight mojo... *whew* Hey, I bet this kinda craziness leads to being able to summon things like the Wild Hunt, wherein drain is measured by how many magicians die during the summoning...
Zazen
What're you going to do with a Force 24 elemental that you probably only get to use once?
phelious fogg
Are you kidding, I got ten services out of him...
CoalHeart
Do you realize, that summoning of an elemental almost always happens? What you're really making the test for is to see if you can control it. If you score 0 successes, you have an extremely angry and very very hostile force 24 fire elemental that only a pair of greater dragons could take down.


No force 24 elementals for you! bad bad. Stick to puppies or something.
phelious fogg
but who else will bring me my beer and women?
CoalHeart
Mind Controlled team mates, of course.
phelious fogg
of course, but they have all gone out to the seven eleven to get me muchies im a Rastashaman....
Kage2020
Yet 'ritual conjuring' appears so often in film, TV and books. Strange that it should not be incorporated...? (Images of Carpenter's Robin of Sherwood and a coven trying to summon Satan! wink.gif)

Indeed, perhaps an interesting difference would be just that. Normal conjuration summons up generic examples of elementals or spirits, whereby Named spirits are a different matter? (Yes, I know about the use of 'names' in conjuration, but just thought that I would throw this out anyway...)

Kage
Jason Farlander
QUOTE (CoalHeart)
Do you realize, that summoning of an elemental almost always happens? What you're really making the test for is to see if you can control it. If you score 0 successes, you have an extremely angry and very very hostile force 24 fire elemental that only a pair of greater dragons could take down.


No force 24 elementals for you! bad bad. Stick to puppies or something.

Umm... I just had an *evil* thought:

Lets say a group of corrupt mages goes around and kidnaps hermetic full mages and aspected hermetic conjurors. Keeping the kidnapped mages under control using mage hoods and whatnot, the group starts tocast control thoughts spells on the mages. They drop the sustaining if they dont get enough successes to maintain a firm grasp, and keep trying again and again until they are confident their mind control is sufficient.

Once they have captured a good number of these mages, they have each one try to summon a force 30 elemental. They are kept awake via drugs and the use of control thoughts (they dont really care if the mages suffer magic loss). Each one will die, and the elementals, being uncontrolled, will almost certainly go free (rolling 30 dice vs a TN of 4, as per MITS).

Oh... did I mention that the corrupt mages are members of winternight?
Spookymonster
I could've sworn I'd read something about not being able to work magic while being under the influence of mind control. If not in 3rd edition, maybe 1st or 2nd?
Joker9125
QUOTE (Jason Farlander)
As mfb said, there are no rules for this. Even if they were, and even if you had 30 dice, you *still* only have a 2.31% chance of summoning a force 24 spirit.... and dont forget the 24D physical drain for every ritual member... mmm, delicious.

From what I understand when you use magic weather it be to cast a spell or conjure an elemental a rip is opened bteween the astral plain and our plain so you can pull the energies from the astral plain to our plain. Drain is simply the act of sewing up that rip. So as far as every member of the team doing the conjuring suffering the full effects of the drain from a force 24 elemental I really dont see how that makes sense. All of them are making ONE giant rip in space not 10 giant rips in space. If they all were making their own giant rips then they would each have to be conjuring a different elemental. But since all of them are only conjuring 1 elemental it makes sense that they are only making 1 making ONE giant rip in space and all 10 of them should be able to divide up the act of closing it. And thus dividing up the drain.

Thoughts? Comments?
booklord
I realize that there are no direct rules out there about it, but at least in my games a 24 force Conjuring library is something only an immortal elf or great dragon "might" have. It's well beyong the ability of even AAA megacorps.

Jason Farlander
Joker: Nope. First of all, as has been said, there are no canon rules for ritual conjuring, period. Second, check out the rules for ritual sorcery... whatever it is about using magic that causes drain, everyone participating in ritual magic suffers the full effects of it.

booklord: Good call about the rating 24 conjuring library... I guess they'll have to kidnap toxic shamans instead. Force 30 free toxic spirits are tastier anyway.
Joker9125
QUOTE (Jason Farlander)
Joker: Nope. First of all, as has been said, there are no canon rules for ritual conjuring, period. Second, check out the rules for ritual sorcery... whatever it is about using magic that causes drain, everyone participating in ritual magic suffers the full effects of it.

First off it is true their are no cannon rules for ritual conjuring. Second conjuring and sorcery are completly different and are in no way related other than the fact that both are magical skills. That being said its safe to say that when making house rules you need to go by logic; is not what most or at least some of what I said logical?
Fortune
No, because precedent is already set in how Ritual Magic works with Ritual Sorcery. If Ritual Conjuring were allowed, it would logically follow that Drain would work in a similar fashion.

I still think a seperate Metamagic would be the best way to house rule Ritual Conjuring.
Joker9125
If that is the case what is the advantage of ritual sorcery? I would love to look it up myself but my GM took the books with him when he went home for christmas break.
Jason Farlander
Umm Joker? you said this:

QUOTE
From what I understand when you use magic weather it be to cast a spell or conjure an elemental a rip is opened bteween the astral plain and our plain so you can pull the energies from the astral plain to our plain. Drain is simply the act of sewing up that rip.


and then you said this:

QUOTE
and sorcery are completly different and are in no way related other than the fact that both are magical skills


If you're going to claim that logic is on your side, you might want to refrain from contradicting yourself.
Joker9125
I am not contradicting myself. Drain is the same for all magical skills. and what is the one thing conjuring and sorcery have in common? Suprise they are both magical skills! When I was reffering to how different they are I was reffering to how different they are in use and pratice (For example casting a spell and canjuring a spirit are two completely different things) I apoligize for not making myself clear on this point earlier.
Jason Farlander
QUOTE (Joker9125)
If that is the case what is the advantage of ritual sorcery? I would love to look it up myself but my GM took the books with him when he went home for christmas break.

The advantages of ritual sorcery are as follows

1) You can use ritual sorcery to target someone or something that is not within direct LOS (this requires a material link or a ritual spotter, and is a HUGE advantage)

2) With a sizeable ritual team you can make your spells practically unresistable. You dont really need to cast a force 20 manabolt when you can cast a force 5 manabolt with more successes than the target can possibly generate - rolling 30 dice, even against a TN of 5 or 6, is almost certain to produce more successes than any non-mage can generate using 5 or 6 dice at TN 3 - and a force 5 manabolt should be easy enough for the members of the ritual team to resist without the need to save ritual pool dice (watch out for that drain power of 2!)

3) I might be wrong about this, so someone correct me if I am, but the target of the ritual spell can be inanimate, such that, if an area-effect elemental manip spell is cast, those near the "target" won't even get a chance to notice the sending.

#2 is important... ritual magic isnt about making it possible to cast insanely high-force spells (afterall, you are limited by the rating of your hermetic circle or shamanic lodge), its about providing a lot more power and to a spell than a single caster is capable off.
Namergon
A lot of dice in the pool also mean potential BIG area of effect for spell cast by ritual sorcery...

Also, when casting a spell using ritual sorcery, one can spare dice so that the ritual sustains the spell a number of hours equal Magic x # spared dice. That's a cheap sustaining focus ersatz.
Namergon
About 20+ Force spirits, I seem to remember that 3rd Edition set a limit of max Force of spirit a conjurer can try to conjure. This limit is IIRC function of the Magic Attribute.
tisoz
QUOTE
3) I might be wrong about this, so someone correct me if I am, but the target of the ritual spell can be inanimate, such that, if an area-effect elemental manip spell is cast, those near the "target" won't even get a chance to notice the sending.


You can not cast elemental manipulation spells with ritual magic.

QUOTE
From what I understand when you use magic weather it be to cast a spell or conjure an elemental a rip is opened bteween the astral plain and our plain so you can pull the energies from the astral plain to our plain. Drain is simply the act of sewing up that rip.


The interpretation of the analogy of drain as a rip is a bit flawed. You are thinking of it being linear like weaving one thread back to close the rip. It would be more like an exponential progression and the larger the Force the wider the tear. The conjurors need a to weave a patch into the gap.

Look at it as having an area spell go off at a certain force. Those in the area all have to resist the full force, not divide the force up between the targets. (Even this isn't a good analogy.smile.gif)
Jason Farlander
QUOTE
You can not cast elemental manipulation spells with ritual magic.


Got a page number on that?
Herald of Verjigorm
MitS, page 34, under requirements (first line).
Ol' Scratch
Magic in the Shadows page 34, first sentence of the first paragraph on the first page of the chapter on Ritual Sorcery under "Requirements."
Jason Farlander
Heh... thanks. Don't have my books with me, and I must have missed that on my last readthrough. Just had to make sure it wasnt someone's vague rememberance of how it works...

The other thing I was waiting for someone to point out was that CoalHeart was wrong about the spirit always appearing when summoned... if there are no successes, no spirit shows up... so no rampaging force 30 free spirits. Oh well.
Joker9125
QUOTE (Jason Farlander)
The other thing I was waiting for someone to point out was that CoalHeart was wrong about the spirit always appearing when summoned... if there are no successes, no spirit shows up... so no rampaging force 30 free spirits. Oh well.

actually im pretty sure he was right the spirit does show up if no successes are rolled the gm must do a test to determine if it goes ona rampage and if he rolls all ones the spirit does. Please correct me if im wrong. But in general a spirit with a force of 6 or more will not go on a rampage because its intellegence is high enought that it realizes its ioppertunity to go home; and does so
tisoz
I'm not sure about a normal spirit showing for a failed conjuring.

Trying to bind a free spirit requires knowing its true name, so it will show when its true name is spoken 3 times. Also, when attempting to conjure a great form spirt, you first make a conjuring test, the spirit shows, then you make a second test at 2*F, if this fails to achieve a success the spirit goes uncontrolled.

Will it be pissed? I think there should be some die roll to determine if it can stay even long enough to make anyone worry about it being pissed, but I think about all canon gives is a roll for how it may become a free spirit.

BtW, What is the difference between an uncontrolled spirit and a free spirit? I know what the mechanics are, but what is to keep the GM from just saying no spirits become free (and hence subject to binding by anyone with its true name) and uncontrolled spirits (that operate much as free spirits with limited abilities) that can only be controlled by someone of the same tradition (a much smaller population and one that the GM can manipulate by never having elementals go uncontrolled around mages, nature spirits around shamen, only spirits of the elements around regular mages and shamen , etc., you get the idea. But how do uncontrolled spirits act differently than free spirits? Do they just act like homicidal maniacs until they decide to return to their native plane? Do they have to return to their native plane? Can they decide to stay?
Joker9125
So am I right in making the assumption that in ritual sorcery everyone in the group casts the spess and combines their collective successes?
Jason Farlander
no... everyone combines their sorcery into a collective pool for the ritual leader to divide up among the various parts of the ritual (linking, sending, casting and drain resistance).
toturi
wonder if there are great form ally spirits...
Fenrir
QUOTE (Namergon)
Also, when casting a spell using ritual sorcery, one can spare dice so that the ritual sustains the spell a number of hours equal Magic x # spared dice. That's a cheap sustaining focus ersatz.

Not that cheap, you have to pay for the materials and it come at Force*100 to Force*1000... If you need to substain the spell more than a few times, it will cost you more than the focus...
Fenrir
QUOTE (Namergon)
This limit is IIRC function of the Magic Attribute.

Yes. The limit is twice the magic rating of the conjurer.
Joker9125
QUOTE (Jason Farlander)
no... everyone combines their sorcery into a collective pool for the ritual leader to divide up among the various parts of the ritual (linking, sending, casting and drain resistance).

hmm if that is the case y wouldnt it be possible to hire lets says 10 or so people each with power foci and conjur a force 15 spirit. If in fact ritual conjuring would work like ritual sorcery and the ritual leader would divide up the spell pool between conjuring and drain.
Herald of Verjigorm
Everyone in the ritual must be capable of casting the spell at the desired force for ritual sorcery. The same would hold true, every conjurer would have to have initiated at least twice to conjucre a force 15 and with a drain TN of 7, you'll want to have a lot of dice to resist drain (which means a lot of dice that can't be used to get the TN of 15 to conjure the elemental).

Find ten initiates with power foci who want to give you an overwhelmingly powerful tool, and give it a try.
Joker9125
i belive the phraise is money talks biggrin.gif
Fortune
Not that much it doesn't! Not in the Sixth World, where magic is somewhat rare, and any magically-active person that wants money that bad would already be working for a Corp. You aren't going to easily find 10 Initiates with the right qualifications who are willing to risk crippling themselves (or worse!).
Joker9125
true didnt think of it that way. Ill Just have to work on initating and binding power focui. Plus is it possible to buy an edge after character creation?
Fortune
That depends on your GM. If he does allow it, the suggested cost is 10 Karma per Build Point cost of the Edge.
Ol' Scratch
No, that's the cost for buying off a Flaw. Officially, you can't buy an Edge after the game begins. The only way to get one is to have the GM just hand it to you. SRComp p. 16, "Edges & Flaws During Game Play" and "Eliminating Flaws."
Fortune
I know it isn't officially sanctioned, but I was sure that I had seen it mentioned somewhere. There are times when a character could possibly gain an Edge during the course of a campaign. If the GM isn't willing to give it to them for free, then the 10 Point/BP rule sets a good precedent for cost.
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