This may have been brought up before but it is 4 in the morning and my search-fu is numb so here goes.

With the availability of vat grown replacement parts, plus the technology of putting your “brain in a box�, how possible or canon is the reality of full clones? Does Doc Wagon now offer a “Doc Wagon Orichalcum� contract? With everything wireless, why could they NOT have a live feed of all your emotions, memories and thoughts, your very “soul� being recorded in the event of your death and then downloading all this information into one of your many “empty� clones; and presto, one second your walking toward “the light� the next your sitting up on a stainless steel table and asking “What the frag happened?�

Has anyone ever use an idea like this?

Would someone who has awakened wake up a mundane? Is magic genetic or a manifestation of something else? I can’t remember right now.

Obviously, all cyber would have to be redone, unless you had it in your contract that your clone had all the same implants you had or you could give your clone hand-me-downs. Yours.

What about someone who had the contract before becoming infected. Your clone doesn’t have the infection but you would give it the memories of the bloodlust and all the acts associated with it. Enough to drive someone insane.

This would be an easy way to deal with PC death. Just have the clone sit out a few sessions while you upload its mind and then presto, “Hey Shaddo, I thought you got geeked. Whats been up?�

I know this sounds a lot like “the Eight Day� with Arnold. (at least I think that was the movie with the clones with the dots tattooed on the inside of their eyelids.)

I’ll throw in another movie plug from “Demolition Man�, why not have different skills implanted into your clone while it is waiting its turn at life (while you’re still you). That way, if you kick the bucket, your clone would have different skills that may allow it to survive, that you didn’t.

“Why does he now know Kung Fu and I can knit?�

For the sake of argument, why not have a AAA create its own “Clone Army� they could clone a mercenary or bounty hunter and augment them all, train them in various skills and give them all matching plastic armor. Sorry, had to do a Lucas plug while I was at it.

no, cloning does not work like that in the world of shadowrun.
just like time travel and teleportation don't(yeah right)

edited for those two words

Page 52 of Augmentation, Cloning section.

Cloning does not work the way that Mr. Yeti thinks it does, yes. Cloning in Shadowrun either produces catatonic specimens that require life support to sustain them, if force-grown, or will produce a child that happens to have the same genetic makeup as the original, if slow-grown, which will not develop properly unless released into society (which will produce a different person from you). In neither case could someone use it to extend their subjective existence.

You're wrong, Heath on the other hand is right.

Although such cloning is by RAW impossible it could still be implemented in the game - there are some interesting drawbacks though.

Sure, you survived, but there are some problems.

Magic is not something that automatically is funneled into the new clone so a new body with a transferred mind might very well become mundane and that lvl 3 initiate might fel a bit cheated.

Cyberware ditto as the 1mil sammie now is a regular joe and have to start over.

Perhaps a metaquest for the mage to regain his magic with help from a 3rd party and lots of jobs and favors for the sammie.

Same goes for technomancer.

What would happen to someone who wakes up and realizes that his magic/resonance is just GONE...

Gamebreaking no, rare as a metaplot - yes.

Fun to GM....oh yea.

That rule is nothing more than a GM fiat. Yes, it is RAW but the (in game world) reality is that what Mr. Yeti describes is entirely possible. It would be much easier to connect a boxed brain to a cloned body, however I see no reason why a fresh brain couldn't be imprinted with the personality of someone else using psychotropic ICE or SIM/SIMSENSE. Rules wise (except that caveat) it is possible. It has been the basis of a few plot threads in the core rules.

If he can get his old body, he can have it all installed back and it wouldn't even count as second hand.

I would only allow such cloning on an Renraku Arcology run during the Shutdown.

Trust The Computer. The Computer is Your Friend.

Shadow-R-UNR-2 at Your service beloved computer.

Cloning is mostly used to replace bodytissue etc.

UniOmni is remarked as likely to have tried it. They are also remarked to probably have failed.

I would still argue for it being less useful than many think; you're tied to your current brain intimately. Brain death is death. I am a physicalist, though. Most people are more in line with dualists.


"In my talons, I shape clay, crafting life forms as I please. If I wish, I can smash it all."

As has been said, sounds like paranoia...

You can basically consider Shadowrun clones as brainless. They're biologically perfect, but they never mentally 'work'. The idea of keeping on a constant, broadband wireless connection to your clone to keep uploading the memories is interesting, but I suspect it wouldn't work. Ultimately, you're basically going to have to transplant the brain into the new clone. Presumably you'd need to transplant some other bits, since the clone doesn't really have an aura, and I don't think the aura is concentrated solely in the brain. How much you need to transfer has never been brought up (that I'm aware of), since hypothetically, it's almost easier to always transfer bits of the clone to you than vice versa. How much you need to transfer to bring the clone to life is up to the GM.

Because Shadowrun has never really dealt with brain transfers, I don't believe there's any rules on initiation transfers. I would tend to assume that if you're transferring from one body to a next, your essence WILL be mangled, even though the new body is a clone. Parts of your aura will be left behind, it's almost inevitable. So how much is left behind depends on how good the doctors are. I'd allow initiation to transfer over, but magic points will be lost throuh lost essence (geas allowed). However, I'd also rule that that loss is sufficient to change the character's aura, resulting in a new astral signature.

Cyberware can be brought over. Some cyberware will be cheaper than others, but all deltaware can be transferred over with only the costs necessary for installation (I'd probably let a betaware clinic install deltaware, and an alphaware clinic install betaware, but no lower).

No skills can be taught to the clone, since it's effectively brainless. HOWEVER, cyberware can be mostly installed, and probably cheaper, so you could upgrade all your gear easier. Don't know what I'd rule re: genetech, however.

Nezumi,
You could always use variants of the cyborg rules, since no amount of wiring up neurons properly is going to be as perfect as your original body. Some components shared with a CCU would probably get installed to keep the brain alive through the procedures necessary and to maintain the brain inside a body that hasn't weathered the same stresses as the original (with the corresponding effects on the brain development). It would probably also monitor the brain-nerve connections for diagnostic purposes.

It also has the advantages of making whole-body replacement survivors rather unstable.

Where are cyborg rules? Or do you mean cybermancy?

Aug/Arsenal Full-Body Replacement Cyborks . . jar-brains

Aye. Right after the Cybermancy section in Aug, page 148.

I apologise if I am suggesting rules from different versions of the game; I've only ever played SR4.

Just make sure you don't get Jar-Brains and Jarheads mixed up. Otherwise you'll have some pissed off UCAS Marine Corp members!

i may have had those mixed up . . tell me the difference please? ^^#

A jarhead and a jar-brain stand outside a CIA agent's office. The CIA agent looks at each of them in turn and says, "For a mission of this importance, you'll both have to prove your loyalty. Your wives are in my office, bound, gagged, and tied to chairs. I will give you each a gun, you will go into that office, one at a time, and kill your wife. If you fail to comply you will be dismissed from this top secret elite unit."

The Jar-brain takes the pistol first and walks into the room. Minutes pass, and no sound is heard, then the anthropomorphic robot walks out with a sobbing woman, throwing the pistol at the CIA agent in disgust. "You're a sick motherfragger. I may not have a human body anymore but that doesn't make me a monster."

The CIA agent says nothing as the jar-brain leaves with his uninjured but traumatized wife and hands the pistol to the jearhead. The jarhead halks into the office, closes the door, and two clicks are immediately heard. There is the sound of a slide being operated, two more clicks, and then nothing for several minutes followed by a thump.

The marine exits the office apologized to the agent "Sorry it took so long, but you forgot to load your gun. I had to take her out with a blood choke."

Jar-Brain is a Brain in a Jar. Put it in a Robot body and let it go.

Jarhead is a Marine Corp Soldier. Give him/her a Rifle and watch the bodies fall.

A clone army could be possible, though extremely expensive (besides the corps have already been through the whole "Huge open warfare" thing and have decided that it's bad for business). As for the other thing about coming back to life, for one thing that would be really annoying, to me at least as a GM. Death is really the only major penalty that 'runners have to fear on a daily basis. I mean yeah, there's a few other things, but basically, if you're not afraid that you might die, the whole stealthy/shadowy/paranoid aspect is very much lessened, if not gone entirely. If that sort of thing was common enough that the average (or even above-average) runner could afford it, I think the SR world would be a hugely different place.

I know, not terribly logical, but sometimes you gotta go with what works best for a game, rather than what's most realistic.

You know what would rock?

A Clone Army fighting a Drone Army!

...

Nah, it's been done.

ok, i did not know the name jarhead for marines

Yeah, don't ask me where it comes from.

But I bet you can blame the Squidies.

And, as I'm a civilian (And a Canadian one at that!), I better stop with the slang term for military groups before I offend people.

It does expand the "Corp saves your life, for a price" routine (which is basically a post-humous deal with the devil in many ways). It allows you to tack on the end "But you'll never be the same again now that they cloned you up a new body and implanted half a CCU into your brain, all of which has given you quite a few mental problems and burnt you out. Take some attribute modifiers for the lesser development your new body has seen and the 'brain pan' they stored you in whilst your body was being cloned up."

Life-saving full-body transplants are only available for those with money, just like all the other cool stuff. Shadowrunners tend not to have that much money, corps might like Shadowrunners they have control over. Hell, it could even be a "perk" of signing on as a permanent fixture in a corp disposable assets lineup.

ARG! My Telomeres!

someone explained to me once that it's because when you become a marine, they cut open your head and put your brain in a jar for storage before they send you out =P

don't know if that's actually where it came from or not though

It's actually regarding the helmets that Marines wore in World War II- or so they told us in Boot Camp.

Not exactly something you want to call a Marine without a sense of humor, should you come across one .

I found this: Regarding the term Jarhead, all are well aware of the explanations for the origins for this name for Marines--that it found its origins in the high, dress blues, collar of the Marine uniform, that it refers to the similarity to a Mason jar, the "high and tight" haircut of Marines, and that the term was first used for Marines by members of the U.S. Navy, etc.

http://www20.brinkster.com/gunnyg/jarhead.html

Personally I was a "Bandaid" for uncle sam and couldn't fit my head in a jar. GO ARMY!!!!!

Back on subject of cloning. Is the consensus then that with the appropriate funds, a person who receives a deadly state of being without brain death could have their “persona� transplanted into an awaiting clone? If the proper magical rites are performed at the time of transfer, little or no loss to essence would occur if awakened. All cyberware / bioware could be transferred without the second-hand penalty to those who have said ware. Things being now wireless as they are, you can set up a isolated server to do nothing but record your every thought, emotion, action, memory to be implanted into said clone. And lastly, why could a corp NOT copy said recording and implant it into multiple clones. “I’m John Adams.� “Frag you, I’m John Adams.� “Frag you are, I’m John Adams.� “Frag all of you, I’m the real John Adams!�

For those who are going to gripe about my theory, what is the difference between what I’m stating and a cyborg but the fact that you use vat grown parts from your own DNA versus metal parts built in a factory and implanted with an electronic copy of your brain?

As far as I can tell there is zilch difference.

Yes it would be uber-expensive, and the current Doc Wagon or Crash Cart contracts don’t cover them. But why could they NOT for the right nuyen. I was just wanting input and canon references, because we all know when it comes down to it, it is up to the GM anyway.

http://www.robandelliot.cycomics.com/webco...04/comic276.jpg
yes well, canon specifically tells us that it simply won't work that way.
i don't really understand why, as with this simsense and psychotropic
stuff you can copy a personality like the writing on one sheet of paper
put in some move-by-wire and skills and moving the freshly grown bod
won't be as much a problem any more . . of course, that won't leave so
much room for anything else essence wise, but if you are just a rich guy
who wants to live on in a new body that he can move and use his skills
with more or less like he did with the last meatbag, then it should work

Remarked as probably not working yet. Even should it work, the amount of information that could be inserted would be pretty low compared to everything that makes up your memories and personality. They mention inserting basic language knowledge and some limb control skill, or something along those lines.


That is a bit of a jump. I'll mention the "not same person, not same consciousness" thing in a few moments.


Cyborgs don't use an electronic copy of a brain; they're the original brain in a box with lifesupport, a datajack and a commlink. To become one, your brain gets cut out and put into the CCU. They mostly use children because adults undergoing the process become mentally unstable.

Your proposed memory duplication doesn't use your original brain and is, therefore, different and not in line with any existing technology mentioned so far for player use (plot McGuffins do not count). I'd also argue that it's beyond the scope of the assumptions that SR makes to believe that copying your memories = same consciousness.

As has been said, I don't think that any amount of money can make genuine copies of a person. You CAN make personafix chips which give the impression of copies of a person, but they aren't 'real' copies.

However, yes, if you have millions of nuyen available for it, probably paid before-hand, you can revive someone who has suffered massive trauma, but not brain death, by doing a near-full body transplant. If your players can afford this, however, you've got other problems, and as a GM I would almost never consider using it, except for 'big names' (i.e., those whose names actually appear in canon as owning megacorps and the like).

I would say that with enough power and money you can make a clone of yourself in female/male form and can have children with her/him if you are so inclined. However, I think this should be used as a plot device and not as something Shadowrunners see or even hear.

But then again I like my near future worlds to be so gritty you can taste the blood at the gaming table.

In real life, we have already done full-body transplants with both dogs and primates. (The press would call them head transplants.) The biggest problems are:

• we cannot properly connect the spinal cord, so the subject is a quadriplegic.
• since we do not yet have forced growth cloning, the body is from a different subject and there are significant tissue-rejection issues
• as far as I know, as of today no such experiment has survived longer than days.

In the cannon world of Shadowrun the required neural surgery is possible by RAW, and forced growth cloning works well (albeit producing a brain-dead body).

So by RAW it is a minor extrapolation that for someone with megacorp resources, they could have their 80-year-old brain transplanted into a 20-year-old clone body with no serious complications.

However Shadowrun has also been clear over the years that Essence, and Self-consciousness are are more than just biological, and so I would conclude that (without a brain transplant) true personality copying will never work, and that even when it gets good enough to fool some people, it would not include magical ability, nor subtle personality details. You would essentially have a biological robot that might even believe it was the person it was a copy of, but anyone looking at the subject astrally would be able to tell it was not the original subject.

Check out the books by Richard Morgan [Altered Carbon, Broken Angels and Woken Furies] with are about special operatives, high technology and low life, clones, a society where brain storage and transfers are viable for almost everyone.

They still don't like getting shot/beaten up or poisoned, have extended lifespans, and fear truedeath [having their personality storage unit destroyed, and thus never being able to be brought back].

These books are the action movie version of Neuromancer

BLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASPHEMY!

I'd agree with the P-Fix half-solution idea. It's not exactly a perfect copy, but that's more interesting, roleplay wise. (Am I John Addams? I'm not sure, I remember John Addams...)

Also, regarding the idea of the personality degrading: Ever read the book Hard Wired? You should. There's a guy whose house get's blown up, and he transfers his mind into the net just before, but his personality comes apart a little bit. It's referred to as going "white" in the book, the slow degrade from an actual, living persona, to a computer facsimile of who you were. There was a similar idea in the GITS series, if I recall.

Well, it is now official that you can play an "escaped clone" (Runners Companion, p. 97)