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Geez. This thread isn't even going that route. Not that nerf the mage threads don't come around sometimes. But even then people don't want magic removed, just toned down. In this thread you get things like people agreeing overcasting spirits isn't a problem.

The question was, does everybody overcast (in case I missed something), and is routine overcasting a bad thing.

Sounds like overcasting is pretty common and there isn't a surprise drawback. Though some really don't like to deal with even slight extra drain damage. If your team is winning the fight easily I could see that.

A bit more mixed on whether it's a problem, sounds to be that most wish overcasting was more reserved for special occasions. Which is where I am.

Thinking about it more part of the issue is that in SR4 it takes a lot to get a weapon to have a higher damage code. An assault cannon is only a 10. Though autofire is an option.

By the way aside from fiber optics direct combat spells don't suffer visibility modifiers do they?

The question is, "Why is it a problem?"

"Why do some players want to tone down other players?"

Actually, you are right. It isn't just magic. Some players have problems with Matrix activity.


Sometimes, I think it has to do with how long a player has to wait for his turn, and what is left to do by the time his turn rolls around.

Some players resent more than 5 minutes of game time devoted to Matrix Activity, or even 5 minutes of Legwork, working Contacts, Ritual Magic, etc. Some players with one initiative pass are pissed off that others get two, three, or more. Some players are jealous because another player has a bigger dice pool.

Even worse are the players that get pissed because another player has a smaller dice pool; Players that don't hold up their end in combat; Players that rather sneak in than kick the door down (also vice versa, of course).

You'd think it was human nature, or something like that.

All spellcasting tests that require Line of Sight suffer the same visibility modifiers as everything else.

Table time is an issue in game, though far off topic and more valid for another thread.

However as probably a signficant percentage of the people around here are GMs we discuss stuff like this out of a sense of wanting games to be fun and balanced.

I think half of why people don't like routine overcasting isn't the high power part. It's that it makes overcasting less special and cool in a game. As a GM I'd rather overcasts were something the player remembers. Really how it worked for Gelare is what I'd like to see. They don't overcast much, but once pulled out all the stops when it really mattered.

@Muspellsheimr. Interesting. Is that explicitly stated in some book or FAQ?

I know you asked Muspellsheimr, but it's on pg. 173, under Step 3: Choose the Target(s). "Visibility modifiers (including darkness, cover, and other impediments) noted for ranged combat also reduce the magician's Magic + Spellcasting dice pool when casting spells."


I see what you're saying about overcasting being "special", but for most non-min-maxed builds, it will be. And for the min-maxers, it will be like the sammie with 18 dice in pistols using the Called Shot rules all of the time. Both characters are basically world-class at their schtick - they should be able to do things regularly that lesser mortals will only attempt when they absolutely have to. The difference being, as a few people have pointed out, that overcasting will, eventually, bite your character in the ass.

I don't find the overcasting rules particularly unbalanced, but the one thing that does irk me is using first aid to heal Drain (stun or physical). Not so much a game balance thing, just that you couldn't before, and it doesn't make sense (to me) that a medkit can treat physical Drain when a heal spell can't - I mean, one being magical aside, they are doing essentially the same thing.

Thanks for the reference.

And you can use first aid to heal drain damage these days? Really? I know having played multiple editions leads to some rules blur with me, but I thought SR4 still had that.

Anyway overcasting doesn't seem to be even remotely restricted to super specialists. For example the grunt corpmage from the BBB should be overcasting. If they keep the stunballs to force 5 they'll usually be able to handle the drain well enough that the fight will be over before they have a modifier.

It's just a standard issue part of casting.

It sounds like you want overcasting to be cool like sex once a month is cool. Some people think weekly or daily sex is even cooler.

I know that my Technomancer routinely attempts to register Rating 6 Sprites; Rating 6 is the threshold for 2 Optional Complex Forms. My Technomancer has Resonance 5, so Rating 6 involves Physical Drain. He suffers a lot; a whole lot!

My mage overcasts whenever the situation calls for it - i.e. whenever a normal cast won't get the job done. The GM determines how often this happens, as the GM determines how powerful the opposition is. Overcasting doesn't hurt as much as over Binding, but it can - and often does - hurt a lot. That may make it special, but it doesn't make it any less routine - unless you count down time

I guess what I am saying is that trying to achieve "balance" can easily turn into an "arms race" - where the only winning move is "not to play".

I played a Shaman who overcast a healing spell to heal a NPC, who was injured saving our party. The after effects were not nice, but this was a "special" use of such.

From a Role Playing point it was very in character, that character would not ever do that under most circumstances.

Even with a good dice pool he was 2 boxes away from death.

WMS

Getting shot hurts, too. If someone is shooting at you then sucking up a bit of pain to make sure they go down now instead of in 5 seconds time seems like a reasonable act to me.

Poor analogy, but overcasting a combat spell is akin to shoving a sword through your gut to hit the guy behind you - the vast majority of people will not do so unless absolutely necessary.

If you are certain you are going to die if you do not kill him now, then overcast. Otherwise, spend a little longer to take them out without something that will not give you a migraine for a day (at best).

Well, overcasting a stunbolt is more like risking skinning your knuckles by punching someone. Overcasting a lightning bolt would be different.

Most visibility modifiers are pretty useless, since all the mage needs is to switch to astral perception to get around them. The only one that'd still apply would be the partial cover. Of course, there are some cases where the mage should avoid switching to astral perception, but they're not that common.

Still switching to astral perception uses up a simple action (meaning they couldn't cast a spell in the same pass) and while it's on they've got modifiers to everything else going on. Including dodging.



I think you enjoy overcasting a liiiiiiitle bit too much there. I'd consider it more like dialing 911 every time you scrape your shin. It's meant for more extreme circumstances.



Translation, if the party doesn't steamroll the opposition you use it. I don't blame you for that. Mechanically it makes sense. As above it's like hurting your first punching. Maybe you'd pull your punches against a third grader but generally you'll want to hit them hard.

Personally I think it's overused, and probably a bit overpowered. But it isn't broken. Not worth house ruling. Plus it lets weaker mages(magic 3 or even less) actually throw spells that could do reasonable damage.

This is not entirely true there are other modifiers that apply in astral perception. Switching to astral perception is helpful if you're in a relatively barren and lifeless area, do it in a crowded downtown street or the Amazonian rainforest and modifiers will add up (see Astral Visibility Modifiers in Street Magic, for the modifiers) - setting aside for the moment additional modifiers such as background count.

Also, it's important to keep in mind that mundane visibility modifiers add up pretty fast. In many combat situations a magician will suffer dice pool modifiers starting at -5 (good/partial cover for the opposition, and attacking from cover for the magician himself), plus -1 or -2 for any situation that has less than ideal lighting even with augmented vision, then there's stuff like fog, smoke (thermal or not), rain, Petit Brume grenades, etc. All things considered, knocking off 5-7 dice from a magician's Spellcasting dice pool is not inconsequential (which is another reason why Elemental effects -AoE or not- are good).

Correct use of visibility modifiers means lower dice pools to throw around and the chance that the opposition might use Edge (or Group Edge) to shrug off the spell, the inherent risks of overcasting and taking a Physical Drain (for nothing) become more of a deterrent.

Note: One grey area in all editions is whether or not movement modifiers (such as running) apply too since they aren't strictly visual impediments - in my game they do, on the principle that movement modifiers abstract and include such things as using cover while moving and evasive movement and dodging.

They are modifiers for the dodge test. Does that mean you allow dodging against spells?

I'm sure they are refering to the -2 "attacker running" modifier when shooting (even against a non resisting target it's harder to hit while you're running).

Correct (which is why I made the aside about running in my post).

Personally I do apply modifiers like that.

The modifiers in the book aren't meant to be exhastive. For example there isn't a modifier for trying to cast a spell while riverdancing, but there would be one (unless that's how you center I suppose). So on and so forth. I just wasn't sure until a few posts ago if visibility mattered or if you just had to lock on.