Greets,

I was looking through Augmentation and it has rules and instructions on running on cyberzombies. Has anyone ever made a PC with the rules?

I was thinking it would be neat on using cyberware and nanotech to create a heavily Shadowpunk world, much more in line with the world of Ghost in the Shell than with SR.

-Chrysalis

If you want GITS, look for the full-body cyborgs in Augmentation. You will need less (but not no) handwaving to get to the cybernetics of GITS.

The problem with cyberzombies in SR4 is that they can't be subtle. They create monstrous background count wherever they go, so most people will see them coming. So cyberzombies really need quick insertion that only corps and the best runner teams can provide.

Personally I found them a lot scarier in previous editions. Now they're really only a combat "boss" type character.

Indeed, go cyborg there.

Cybermancy is definately not that well suited for PCs. Hell, I even find it way to over the top and somewhat crappy to use it as npcs / plotdevices. In my eyes the cybermancy stuff plainly sucks. To get in the way of one of those cyberzombies you'll need some artillery or something like that. They have immunity to normal weapons and somewhat cancelout magic to some extend (backgroundcount). They are also able to have attributes that go where no attribute has gone before... Unless you what some comic like Ultimate setting, that wouldn't be the way to go I guess.

Cyborgs are more mudane and have more in common with the "Ghost in the Shell" setting - also they are no "one man armies". They fit a hightech campain perfectly.

I understood that cyberzombies are very much an end boss character. However what about a Shadowrun/Bubblegum Crisis crossover. I see cyberzombies as being combat dropped heavy weapons platforms like boomers with their equal subtlety.

I was actually going to ignore the MAGIIIC! portion with cyberzombies. So cybrogs would be the way to go? Any limits with them as they would be basically built as vehicles?

-Chrysalis

Cyberzombies are cool but im unsure how ott you want to go. I wonder waht the damage is to be dropped form orbit. How needs just plan old thor shot when it can fight after it lands as well. High rating hydraulic legs the super damage soaking power and maybe a parachute. Gilding from orbit then drop on the target guns blazing. Off topic slightly but one fun idea.

While that idea is fun, I don't think orbital drop would be that interesting, you have to bring it up there first, satellite are rarely very fast/mobile and there is many inconvenience with atmosphere reentry. You'll need some kind of drop pod...
On the other hand, a prepared stealth bomber and high altitude parachuted cyberzombies can be equally neat.

"The doors opened in front of me and the air was sucked out of the drop bay, scattering crystals of frozen vapor across my path. I can't describe what it feels like to look directly down at a world, falling continuously as you circle it, with barely fifteen centimeters of armor plate protecting you. When the magnetic locks disengaged on my droid I plunged out of the drop bay towards the battle that waited below."
Excerpt from Dialogue w. Canderous Ordo, describing the feeling of being dropped from high orbit towards a raging battle inside a Basilisk war droid..
Kotor... play it.. love it... play it again

In a far future SF game I roughed out using the Shadowrun (3rd ed) system that was actually the primary deployment method of the planetary assault units of the Terran Defence Force. Basically the entire Assault Unit's purpose was to establish beach heads and LZ's on planets and serve as a sort of forlorn hope. It was made up of convicted criminals who were sentenced to "military modification". They were kept in stasis on their troop ships and ejected onto the planet from orbit. They had a drop pod similar to the ones in Starship Troopers (the book) and would have the mission plan uploaded into their brain just prior to their drop. They'd be launched out of the assault ships and basically left alone to do their thing. They were really difficult to actually kill, and completely single minded once they did hit the ground. Suited up in power armour, pumped full of combat drugs, and with enough cybernetic modification that they weren't even human anymore they really were the ultimate warriors. Their big downside was that they were so aggressive and difficult to control that they needed to be knocked back into a comatose state before any regular troops could land or there was a very real possibility of a blue on blue situation. They also couldn't be used in anything but a full scale assault since although they were capable of distinguishing civilian targets from real threats they were simply so aggressive that they would target anything that moved if no other targets presented themselves.

sounds like Warhammer 40k Dreadnaughts to me

In what way? Aint dreadnoughts supposed to be great heroes graced to serve the emperor even through death.. ?

yeah, so? O.o
in the eyes of Eldar, Necron, Orks and Chaos they are not, it's all in the perception of your reality *g*
or Chaos Dreadnaught if you want

Chaos Dreadnought indeed better match the description.
They are never asleep contrary to their loyalist counterpart and are, literally, insane.
When unleashed on the battlefield, they just attacks everything in sight...

I want to make a melee zombie now monowhips vibroblades full heavy mill spec armor and a bucket load of armor plating. What fun it would be for one of these to drop in on a glider plus one missile launcher for high threat targets. I think I'll have my runner get recon and GPS for a stike team again a huge terrorist cell just drop him and a ranged buddy in and watch their faces as a small army is wiped out by two people falling from the sky.

If anything they're probably closer to Evisor(sp?) Assassins in power armour. They were also more adaptable than dreadnoughts however since there were a variety of 'cyborg' chassis' that could be deployed, everything from highly stealthed scouts, up to massive 15 foot tall war machines (based around trolls) that were much closer in spirit to Dreadnoughts. Most were still pretty much human sized though and equipped with the standard firearms and power armour of the TDF. They were simply much harder targets.

Eversor Assasins.

Still cant beat the vindicator fluff wise or the shape changing one. For a fascist empire (rules by a comatose god in the public's eyes) that kills mutants on sight the elites are very FUBAR but cool.

If by 'most' you mean less than 1/100 then, yes, most people will see them coming. ''Most', however, usually indicated more than half.

Cyberzombies can be made to be subtle, up to a point. You can have face cyberzombies, stealth cyberzombies, detective cyberzombies, and all other sorts of cyberzombies in addition to the standard absurdly durable killing machine. There is really no requirement to get heavy combat 'ware as a cyberzombie, except for the fact that it must add up to more than 6 points of essence as Delta grade.

Real problem with the cyberzombie is their tendency to zone out and forget to live.

Now they sound like a few people I know. Part of me wonder how you can get over a large amount of delta in some one as well cyber limb are waste full on a Cyberzombie it would be one ticked out beast to be huge and nigh on immortal.

You start out with Move By Wire 3 and grow from there. Use big stuff, like dual coaxial fire-linked grenade launchers in each arm, or a great deal of little stuff. It is actually possibly to create a cyberzombie using nothing but senseware. Its not easy, mind you, and requires putting eyeballs in some very odd places, but it is possible.

I knew this one guy who had a tendency to forget to breathe if he thought about anything too hard. Once he passed out he wouldn't be concentrating on anything, obviously, so he'd start breathing again and he'd wake up pretty quickly.
As I understand it, he had at least one massive overdose in his younger life that was believed to be responsible.

P. 156, AUG mentions that all cyberware is likely to be delta grade.
It is not required to.
Actually, it would theoretically be possible to build a CZ using used standard ware only.

However, at least the new 'ware implanted during the cybermantic surgery will usually be delta grade.
In many cases, the subjects will also already have their previously installed ware replaced by delta-grade implants, as such a high risk operation is considered partially as an option for patients who cannot by implanted with even more 'ware without going below zero essence, but still feel the need for additional modification.

There are other examples, though, cases in which the cybermantic process is a means of life extension (if the term "life" is even remotely appropriate here).
Hatchetman was one of those cases (and also one of the first officially known test subjects for the whole procedure).

Furthermore, some rather derelict individuals might also consider cybermancy's side effects, such as background count, dual nature or unnatural vigor, be an end in itself, undergoing cybermancy to benefit from them.
Note that many of the positive side effects increase with greater essence reduction below zero (as well as the negative ones...better be prepared).

In such cases (or cases where someone else decides that the two abovementioned factors alone validate cybermancy), not resorting to deltaware might actually be considered a feasible option.

Even then, one might argue that the extreme costs asociated with the whole procedure, both monetary and otherwise, make the use of anything less than maximum implant quality redundant, but theoretically, CZ with non-delta-grade 'ware are possible.

Moreover, there might also be cybermantic research where scientists attempt to reach new levels of negative essence (some passages of AUG suggest this).
Depending on who is the subject of this research, cheaper 'ware might appear as an adequate solution to those financing such projects.

Actually Rasumichin raises an interesting point for creating a PC type cyberzombie.

It sounds like things have moved past where there is significant risk to the caster, but they also mention that something is learned every time with the procedure.

Therefore there could be research groups making cyberzombies out of second hand cyberware (possibly shifting it from one failed experiment directly to the next). It would be fairly trivial to make a character like that who managed to slip out of the facility even using a standard 400BP build. Just make them take maybe a 30 point "cyberzombie" quality.

Alternatively some corp might be interested in squads of them as an anti magic force. Even just throwing one -5 essence zombie on a chopper that fits within it's field would pretty well mask it an the guys inside from remote detection magic and make it a witch to attack via spirits and most spells. UCAS might be interested in that if they want to try and get some NAN land back.

A note on their immunity to normal weapons. How does that combine with the rest of their armor?

Lets say they have 15 points of regular armor on and have 5 points of immunity. Would they have:

effectively 20 points of hardened armor (I really don't think so).

15 points of armor. If the attack can't even generate a DV of 5 it is ignored
20 points of armor If the attack can't even generate a DV of 5 it is ignored.

I've completely changed my view of cyberzombies the day I realized that cyberzombification raises the maximum modified limit for mental attributes as well. Since then, I've been thinking of the cyberzombie CEO : more charismatic than a pornomancer, as intelligent as a dragon... I just need to check if there are enough charisma and logic boosting ware to make it possible.

And if there isn't, just load it up with really sneaky lethalware... No need to make it a one-trick pony...

Yeah, the increased mental attribute hardcap offers fascinating perspectives.
As does the dual nature of CZ in SR4.
Adept zombies can be fun.
Sure, they won't be able to raise their Magic above 1, but 1 point worth of adept powers is still better than being a quasi-mundane CZ whose Magic attribute is just there for formal issues.

Plus, cyberspur weapon focus.

*cough* chairman Quincy of Genom.


How hard would it be on creating a cyberzombie from second hand parts?

On a related note: What happens if your normal character reaches 0 or near 0 essence?

-Chrysalis

Creating a cyberzombie is very hard and expensive. You need a team of specialists in cybermancy and access to one of the few delta grade clinic. If you've got that, there's no reason to use second hand parts. And if you did, it'd be like buying a huge house in a very expensive location and furnish it with cardboard boxes.

If your character reaches near 0 essence, he's fine except for an optional (meaning you're free to play it this way if you (or the GM) want, but you don't have to) cyberpsychosis. When he reaches 0, the spirit isn't attached to the body anymore and leaves.

CZ creation involves -besides access to a delta clinic and qualified surgeons- a bunch of top-notch casters.
Beforehand, you have to develop a thesis for each individual CZ, requiring an extended Arcana (-Test.
Then, you'll have to open an astral gateway to some terrible metaplane (possibly the plane of death or purgatory), which requires either the help of a free spirit or a sage spirit in great form, because this place cannot be reached without the astral gateway power, as it is one of the deep metaplanes.
One of the cybermants has to undertake a quest there, then the surgery is conducted and the final stages of the process can begin (which essentially means that you die on the operating table, but your soul is violently forced to stick with your body).
These final stages are, ruleswise, basically a Binding test (can't recall the target number on top of my head, but it's not a cakewalk either), the result determining how many negative qualities the new CZ acquires.
BTW, in the whole process, it is helpful to destroy items or persons (!) of personal importance to the aspiring CZ.

Considering all this, second hand parts are really only an option for expandeble research subjects.

However, replacing almost 6 essence points of ware with delta grade products will produce much, much higher costs than the cybermantic procedure itself.
So, a CZ with at least some non-delta implants might be created, even though i would strongly recommend to resort to other ways to max out your essence limit before being killed under controlled conditions and having your spirit bound to your mortal shell by some twisted arcane ritual.

Which is why I mentioned the backstory should probably feature experimental test subjects.

For example a high end luxury car is expensive. If you're going to sell one you really should add in the GPS system, the nice seats, the Ipod and player, the fancy rims and so on.

However in the process of bringing one to market you have to send some out for crash tests, and probably some incremental test models. I'm betting that they have the minimum of bells and whistles.

And beyond just general R&D I could see some of the newer start up labs doing cheaper test runs before trying on their multi million dollar men. Having some bum with cheap wear on the table also gives a starting mage the option to bug out if they start having troubles.

I don't know if I'd offer that for starting characters in general. But I might consider it if I was already running a game that allowed cyborgs or something.

Or maybe if I had someone who was newer to the game and wasn't actually asking for it. Out of the hands of munchkins it'd be a way for a new player to deal with some interesting role play stuff while making sure their potency was on par with or possibly ahead of the more experienced players.

We had a Bubblegum Crisis (Classic OAV verse) using the SR2 rules. It was quite fun, although the PCs were members of ADP's "q-squad" - a bunch of screw-ups with various problems/flaws dealing with oddball cases. No magic (obviously) but the system held up fine.

I used my first cyberzombie in SR4 last game session. The runners were infiltrating a private clinic, and (among other thinhgs) there was the zombie undergoing treatment. It would have been in isolation, if not for the fact that the zombie was a hacker, and even semi-subconsciously hacked the system regularily to try and find his friend, that died on the beach where he was wounded (turning the 'ware off wasn't an option due to the mental state of the CZ, so they just dealt with a "confused" patient wandering around from time to time - no internal weapons though). Good thing the runner that met him rolled well on Con (6 hits) when he asked where "Willie" was.

Don't cyberzombies still cause astral hazing?

If so, how would a magic 1 cyberzombie even work? His magic rating would be reduced by the background count, leaving him with magic 0.

they are their own domain, as such the background count is aspected towards them . . so with a background of 5, he could wrk more or less as if he had magic 6 . . arguably, as far as i know, this has never been either disputed or approved of

He's a member of the cyberzombie magical tradition? Not a hermetic, or a shaman, or a wujen, etc.? Seems a bit unlikely.

Besides, isn't mana hazing functionally a mana ebb? I don't think those are supposed to be empowering for anyone.

The intent of the text seems to be that they have magic 1. No more and no less due to their background counts.

Bah.
I hate blatant, unexplainable rules exceptions.

(Should be used to them by now, though, eh?)

Cyberzombies have always been one of my favorite things in Shadowrun They hit the magic, the tech, the grim, and the stupid, all in one deliciously grotesque stroke.

I don't have Augmentation, but looking at the posts, is it right to say that CZs are a lot beefier (chromier?) in 4e? They didn't use vehicle armor rules in 3e- they did have the dual natured/karmic hazing/die if they get distracted thing going for them.

...and they are magically active now? It explicitly said they couldn't perform magic (said generically, covering both spells and powers) in 3e. That's a big change.

I never got the End Boss vibe from 3e CZs, although you could build them that way by going all-out with 'ware and gear (move-by-wire, 3 arms, machine gun/PAC + assault rifle, heavy armor, etc)

To the OP: I don't know that the SR rules are good for anything except exactly what they're designed to do. It might work better to convert the BGC rpg cyborg rules into something more SR shaped if wanting to use SR rules as a base for the rest of the game but allowing for more metal characters. I definitely recommend deciding on a static Essence cost rather than using the stupid random system though.

- in case you're unfamiliar with it: BGC rpg

Oh I have all of the BGC books. I liked the AD Police series more than BGC actually. The system is nice, but cyberware was not covered that well, while I could use cyberpunk 2020's fuzion plug-in to port over all the cyberware it seems more of a bother than just using a game world where with the power of handwaving I can have a Japan with boomers and now with Runner's Companion I have some good ideas on synthetic life.

If they where magically active before the zombification, then yes, they retain one point of their Magic attribute (which can never be raised by any means, which would include their own background count).
Interesting new perspectives for burnt-out mages...

If they used to be mundane, they'll just get a Magic attribute of (1), as all dual-natured beings in SR4 do.
Meaning that they are able to learn Asensing and Astral Combat, but none of the other mojo.

in SR4, Background-count does not directly affect magic attribute, it just gives boni like smartlink for shooting or am i missing something here?
so you still have magic of 1, but you can do stuff as if magic were 6 more or less . .

Actually, I'm pretty sure Frank or Synner pointed out why you can't have cyberzombie mages. They AUTOMATICALLY qualify as Burn-outs, because at some ponit during the process their essence was reduced below 1, thus causing the TOTAL AND PERMANENT loss of all magic abilities. It's only when the process is completed that they gain that magic rating of 1, and their background count is not aspected to them (or anyone for that matter- although it might be cool to make up a special kind of toxic for that). The only way I can see them using magic at all is the latent awakening quality kicking in AFTER they "die" which is illogical, probably against the rules, and really creepy.

As far as weapon foci cyberspurs go- I'd say cool, because nothing I've found in the RAW says you even need to be magically active to use them to bypass INW (not even bonded to them), just to gain the DP bonus.

I like to think of CZs more like Nemesis from Resident Evil in how to use them, but the BGC Boomer parralels are there (I have all the stuff for the game and Mekton Z+ so I can make more stuff, but I got rid of my Cyberpunk Warez books because they didn't transfer well- good game)

BC reduces the magic rating, but in case it is aspected to you (or the other way round;)) you get bonus dice instead of an actual raise.

Vampires and other HMHVV?
@BGC(BackGroundCount), yeah, i thought it was something like that ^^

As far as I know.. HMHVV doesnt kill the diseased..

let's not go there again *g*
but there IS the fact that HMHVV "People" seem to have a higher chance of awakening after the fact . .

That's just wrong.
You are mistaking that with cyborgs (who always lose any possible magic or resonance based abilities once their brain is put into the CCU).


If a character undergoing cybermancy "already posessed a Magic attribute, it is permanently reduced to 1", not 0 (AUG, p.157).
Even further implantation does not cause Magic loss, due to the cybermantic procedure (also Aug., p157).


@ Stahlseele :
As far as the background count is concerned, it is 4, not 5, and it directly influences the Magic attribute rating in SR 4 (looked it up in SM just to be sure).
As a CZs Magic cannot be raised above 1 by any means, this automatically means that he cannot profit from his own background count as far as his own magical abilities are concerned.

BTW, @ Mr. Unpronounceable, it is positive background count caused by the warping of mana, not negative BC caused by mana absence.
Mechanical effects are the same for both, though (unless positive BC is aspected to you).



What i'm wondering about, though, is how the hazing interacts with other BC, as reducing a CZs Magic to 0 would kill him instantly (Aug, p.157).
This would also be interesting for other dual-natured beings, who would suffer the same consequences.
By strict RAW, even a relatively common BC of 1 would just plain kill them...

Aspected mana doesn't increase your magic.



DP Bonus =/= Attribute Increase. A CZ can only profit from his own background count by 1, though.

I was wondering about that myself. I'd be inclined to say that they don't die because your magic is effectively lowered as far as using it goes, but doesn't actaully drop.

A magic 4 mage in a BC4 area doesn't permanently lose their powers the way they would if cyberware or something lowered them to 0. They just can't do anything with magic.