1) Can a weapon with Pilot and a Propulsion system (considered a drone by the flavor text) take drone-related modifications such as, say, Gecko Tips? What about a Drone Hand?

1a) Is a drone weapon with the crawling upgrade agile enough to, say, aim itself? What if the rigger were "jumped in"?

2) How do partial limb modular attachments work with in full cyberlimbs in regards to capacity? If I have a full obvious cyberarm (15) and I attach a lower arm attachment (say, the grapple hand), how much capacity do I have left? 5 (that is, obvious full cyberarm capacity, minus obvious lower cyberarm capacity)?

2a) Related: the raptor cyberlegs are the only attachments that have any capacity of their own, correct? No putting retractable climbing claws in my aforementioned grapple hand?

3) Generic: If vehicles come with a "standard upgrade" that modifies one of their stats (i.e., engine customization), are we to assume that modification is included in their stats?

3a) Specific: The Tata Hotspur has engine customization, which can be taken once for Speed and once for Accel - which one is then available to me for additional modification?

4) Seating: some vehicles mention it, others don't. Are we just supposed to wing it?

5) Can a manual driver (that is, a non-rigger) fire a remote controlled turret, so long as he has the IPs to do it? Is there any penalty for that?

6) Are internal and concealed turrets supposed to represent the pop-up turrets of yesteryear?

I think that's it for now. I'm sure I have more, in particular a collection of Q's on the practical function of fake SINs and licenses, but I'll add those later once I've organized my thoughts.

My quick answers:
1) Can a weapon with Pilot and a Propulsion system (considered a drone by the flavor text) take drone-related modifications such as, say, Gecko Tips? What about a Drone Hand? No, it can take weapon modifications, it is a weapon which happens to have functionality similar to a drone.

1a) Is a drone weapon with the crawling upgrade agile enough to, say, aim itself? What if the rigger were "jumped in"? I'd say yes, but it has to take a simple action "take aim" to actually aim.

2) How do partial limb modular attachments work with in full cyberlimbs in regards to capacity? If I have a full obvious cyberarm (15) and I attach a lower arm attachment (say, the grapple hand), how much capacity do I have left? 5 (that is, obvious full cyberarm capacity, minus obvious lower cyberarm capacity)? Correct.

2a) Related: the raptor cyberlegs are the only attachments that have any capacity of their own, correct? No putting retractable climbing claws in my aforementioned grapple hand? Again, correct.

3) Generic: If vehicles come with a "standard upgrade" that modifies one of their stats (i.e., engine customization), are we to assume that modification is included in their stats? Yes.

3a) Specific: The Tata Hotspur has engine customization, which can be taken once for Speed and once for Accel - which one is then available to me for additional modification? Due to the amount that both speed and accel is higher than the other vehicles in its class, I'd say its had both done already.

4) Seating: some vehicles mention it, others don't. Are we just supposed to wing it? Yes

5) Can a manual driver (that is, a non-rigger) fire a remote controlled turret, so long as he has the IPs to do it? Is there any penalty for that? No, its a remote turret, you have to be somehow in the machine virtually (command program/jumped in/etc) to fire it. Thats what makes it 'remote'.

6) Are internal and concealed turrets supposed to represent the pop-up turrets of yesteryear? Yes.

1) Hell yes. It´s inefficient enough at it is, so it´s all about flavour.

1a) There would IMO be a very seriously limited field-of-fire, but yes.

2) Staying consistent with little effort speaks for a detachment of the lower arms capacity. 20-12 = 8 for the upper arm, if memory serves.

2a) Yes.

3) Yes. Assume that the bonus of having (whatever cool) is reflected in the stats.

3a) The Tata Hotspur is double cool - it has both? (look at those stats)

4) Yep. Whatever floats your boat - cooperative gaming.

5) You are talking about a "armored manual" or "manual", plus"remote" combination - remote alone doesn´t do it. RAW.

6) No - See flexibility. RAW.

Edit: It took some time to answer, Tarantula was faster. Still, some deviations.

Awesome. Well, good news and bad news, anyhow - but answers are awesome.

2b) In optimized cyberlimbs, does the price modifier apply to all internal parts the way quality (alpha/beta/delta) multipiers do? Does this include modular attachments?

Re: 5) In previous editions, remote control meant the weapon could be fired from a console inside the vehicle - is there no equivalent to this?

5a) Can a manual driver use AR remote control to fire a remote controlled turret, so long as he has the IPs to do it? Is there any penalty for that?

2b) In optimized cyberlimbs, does the price modifier apply to all internal parts the way quality (alpha/beta/delta) multipiers do? Does this include modular attachments? Yes

Re: 5) In previous editions, remote control meant the weapon could be fired from a console inside the vehicle - is there no equivalent to this? Command program

5a) Can a manual driver use AR remote control to fire a remote controlled turret, so long as he has the IPs to do it? Is there any penalty for that? Using a command program it could work.

Control inside the vehicle = armored manual controls.

Oh, I completely didn't get that from the way Arsenal describes it (or doesn't). So the question that follows, I suppose, is "can a meat-driver control his vehicle and fire manually controlled weapons provided he has the IPs to do so?"

Oooo! New question.

7) Can a jumped-in smartlinked rigger benefit from a smartlinked turret?

"can a meat-driver control his vehicle and fire manually controlled weapons provided he has the IPs to do so?" Yes, you need to spend 1 IP per turn driving though. (To remain in control.)

7) Can a jumped-in smartlinked rigger benefit from a smartlinked turret? I say yes. Jumped in rigger has to have sim module (covers the image link issue) and the turret has the smart link data to send.

On question 1 - It specifies in Arsenal under Propulsion System "Note that a weapon with a propulsion system still counts as a weapon in terms of modification, so it cannot profit from any drone or vehicle modifications." (Arsenal, pg 153). As to question 1a, it states under the pilot option that it is considered a drone in all respects, so with the proper software it can aim itself.

Right. Knew I read that somewhere.

Next up: genetics.

Permanent infusions: how exactly would a permanent infusion of, say, Endure work? Are we to assume they never asleep, or that after a while they simply hallucinate permanently? Or that the effects last for 5 days, after which the character sleeps for 24 hours, then 5 days, then 24 hours, etc?

probably the last of those 3 options you listed there . . but i would not rule out the second option entirely . . now just think about what would happen if you were to combine that with sleep regulator and certain drugs O.o if someone were willing to combine those(is the electroshock alarm-clock-cyber still in there) they could churn out serious work-power . . 5 or 6 days of sleep for an enitre month?

I'd say the character would basically be screwed. Since its from when endure was injected, they'd soon never be able to pass the test. When they fail, they begin hallucinating (which would be permanent too). Since it never wears off, they'd never sleep.

I'd have to say sideways would be the one to get permanent. Implant a biomonitor, and you can think to access you status, and never worry about not knowing how you're doing. I might have to look into making a lucky type character (to ensure getting the 5 hits) who invests in it.

In this case, I was looking at the Mysterious Cyberware negative quality, which offers a permanent infusion, plus a moderate addiction to a street drug of the GM's choice.

After reading the section of Augmentation on genetic infusions, it seems to imply that you get the "intended effects" without the negative ones, if the infusion becomes permanent. After all - this is the best possible result you can get with an infusion - you wouldn't think it would be worse than the standard infusion. But then, it never explicitly states it.

It does not state that. It says "The infusion integrated perfectly. The character gains the full effects of the infusion as ap ermanent modification at a cost of 0.4 essence"

That to me says good and bad, you get it all forever.

Sorry, I was referring the flavor text that describes the chart: "The best outcome is that the gene integrates perfectly in the genome and the character receives all of the intended benefits of the infusion as a permanent enhancement."

I'm not arguing with RAW, I just find it odd that the best result is worse than a average result.

EDIT: But you're right, Sideways is definitely the way to go - for this particular character, I'd just prefer the Athletics bonuses.

It isn't worse. The average result is temporary, the best is permanent. How is that worse?

In this case, only that he's permanently hallucinating - which is specific to Endure. The others don't have such a painful drawback, so I guess my point isn't really valid.

REANIMATE!

9) Previous editions had rules for legit licenses. Is that still an option - particularly for SINners with 'ware?

I would like to know if what the elf chick on the cover of Runner's Companion has a cyberhand with a "bulk" modification. The reason I ask this is because there is at least 2 inches (5 cm) of metal past her wrist.

Also can you put things like a commlink or a datajack in a cyberhand? What about a nano-hive?

I'd like confirmation on this too. I know this is possible, but initially I was under the impression that it still needed to be operated manually. Then, as I thought about it, it occurred to me that the cyberhand itself already has a DNI - is that sufficient to mentally run any equipment contained within?

All cyberware capacities are interchangable. Cyberhand has a capacity of 4. Commlink takes 2, so yes it can fit. Datajack takes 1, so it'll fit too. Nanohive takes 2, so it could fit with either/or, but not all 3.

Lastly, I'd say if it would be DNI when implanted for essence, then when implanted for capacity it just "ties" in to the already implanted ware, and is still DNI.

That's what I assumed. And, so as not to be lost, my actual Q:

SR4, 323, "Fake License: For those who don’t want to go through
the standard legal channels, a fake license can be obtained
for all kinds of restricted items (see Legality, p. 303) or activities
(hunting, concealed carry, spellcasting, etc.)—as appropriate
to the jurisdiction—can be obtained through the
black market"

So, do we have any information on the aforementioned "standard legal channels"?

Not in the book. I'd say its basically the same as real life. You want to buy a gun? Give them your SIN, wait 2-3 weeks, come pick it up, don't carry it on you without having a CCP. Etc.

In real life, there's an Italian bloodline with fatal genetic insomnia - starting around age 30 or so, the males of the family simply stop sleeping at all. They usually manage to creak along until age 50 or so, when they die from the buildup of massive physical and mental degeneration.

So yeah. Getting a permanent inability to sleep would be not-good-at-all. Though shadowrunners probably don't have the life expectancy to really need to worry about the worst parts of it.

Reading another thread, a potential solution occurred to me - wouldn't a tranq patch work for forcing the user to sleep?

or sleep regulator?

Well, a couple tranq patches would work, (gotta overflow that stun damage track). But that'd work I guess, take a long nap every couple of weeks and call it good?

Resurrection, related to my other thread.

10) Cyborgs use Sensor instead of Agility (and therefore, Vehicle skill) to make attacks, correct? The book states it clearly, but I just want to confirm that they act like jumped-in drones rather than metahumans.

11) Does vehicle armor stack with worn armor on the Otomo?

12) EDIT: Nanomaintenance system is an advance self-repair. Self-repair doesn't work with signature masking. Therefore, nanomaintenance system doesn't work with signature masking?

10) Yes, as the book says Attacks are gunnery + sensor. And the book also says "as with any rigger jumped into a drone, make the following substitutions for common tests:"

11) I'd say no, and that because of the Mimic option, you would not be able to add vehicle armor to the otomo. Concealed armor maybe, but not regular vehicle armor.

12) Self-repair uses special materials to acheive its effect. Nanomaintanence uses nanites. Self repair can't work with masking because masking also uses special materials to achieve its effect. Nanites still work fine.

And here I was hoping it was totally wrong and I could use his crazy vehicle skizills.


Let's assume it's using concealed armor and/or the mimic option is removed....


Great news, that.

11) By the rules, you can add up to 10 concealed, or 18 regular armor to the Otomo. Though, I'd be inclined to say that you can't as they come with 0 armor for a reason, and likely don't have the room/strength for vehicle armor, being that they're made to replicate a metahuman.

But by the rules, pile on the armor.

I'd say no Tarantula... what is smartlink... it's just a bunch of sensors which get added to what otherwise would be a dumb gun w/ iron sights. What do jumped in riggers use to fire... sensor + gunnery. So you're saying you're going to give a +2 more dice for a very very common weapon mod. And imagelink != smartlink. You're also not including the smartlink in the drones sensor package limitation either!

I also suspect the 'gunnery' skill is so generic and used over drones w/ their sensors reflecting that they already include the specialized targetting data smartlink provides to players actually using their own hands to fire w/ far more specialized gun skills. When I think 'gunnery' skill using rigger I think of someone who's not looking down iron sights and pointing his gun at his target, but someone who already is just moving the electronic crosshairs which already include smartlink type targetting info over his target and pulling the trigger.

I don't think it's as cut and dried as you make it. I'd consider it, but only if the smartlink was specifically worked into the drones sensor rating somehow as a sensor upgrade type mod. (enhanced targetting), which would enhance the sensor+gunnery roll directly.

Yes, smartlink would be needed on the drones camera sensors in order to use smartlink data. Gun would also need smartlink.

I disagree... I'm arguing that smartlink is already part of the the drone and it's sensor package. The drone already includes a pilot program and gunnery autosoft and sensors... then the rigger is firing he's just moving the crosshairs provided by the system over the target. Gunnery covers all weapons... he doesn't have to know how to specially aim the GL w/ it's lobbed arc as the system already provides him that calculated aiming data (this is why you use gunnery for all drone weapons... instead of needing to have specialized automatics, specialized heavy weapons skills to use any drone mounted weapon).

I would consider smartlink as part of the "Improved Sensor Array" mod... as that increases the number of sensors, and also seems to up the raw Sensor rating of the drone by 1 per application (says that extra large vehicle has sensor rating 6). Similarly, I'd toss in the improved rangefinder as an additional mod on the drone (treating things as one range bracket closer) but use an extra sensor channel for that data as well.

Remember smartlink is an augmented reality mod specific to firing weapons in combat. Tactical nets are also an augmented reality bonus which replaces other AR bonuses... so given that this is a drone... and the rigger armada, I'd say that tacnets are the way to go to get an AR bonus on the 'GUNNERY' skill. I don't think it's apt to give a straight +2 augmented reality bonus, to someone who's already operating in augmented reality! (the AR bonus applies to people getting AR data to help them operate in meatspace... the character is operating in full VR though here. This is an important distinction).

Lets take this a different way... the rigger is aiming at the crosshairs provided by the system... back through his remote sim module (with the extra latency issues that provides)... would a laser sight give a bonus +1 die as well? Even though both produce an aiming dot in the exact same place in his VR interface at short range?!

Yes, the laser would also give a +1 bonus.

P. 105 spells out what is in a vehicles regular sensor array. Note, there is no smartlink on it. Therefore, you can add smartlink to the cameras, and the guns, and get the benefit.

On a related note to both previous topics...

13) How does the drone Sensor rating and their sensor package interact? More important, I know how to improve the sensor package - but how do I improve the Sensor rating?

EDIT: Nevermind - found it.

EDIT2: Reverse that. I found Sensor software for security systems, etc. Question stands: how to improve a drone's sensor rating?

I'm going to put this up front... since you refuse to address it.
I think the question hinges does the drone already include smartgun type software as part of it's sensor and gunnery package. I'd argue that yes it does. The rigger is already operating in full VR w/ all his drones targetting info provided for him. You can argue otherwise as it's never addressed, but I'd like to understand your rationale. (I'll point out laser pointer doesn't stack w/ smartgun, so if it's already built-in then no it wouldn't stack).

As far as the 'standard sensor package'. That's all it is... standard sensor package, It only lists those sensors as the basic package so people know what they'll normally have to deal with. They can be changed as players/GMs see fit. Smaller drones don't have that many, and larger vehicles have more.

What sensors are part of a smartlink? According to p311 BBB. A guncam, a laser rangefinder. Improved rangefinder includes extra 2 rangefinder sensors to improve range detection. Plus there's special software running to provide an AR bonus to the shooter by taking that info to superimpose ballistics info onto meatspace (IMO that software is already part of the drones gunnery autosoft). So by my count that's 2 or 4 extra sensor channels of data you haven't made room for. It's not a matter of putting it on the vehicles camera... it's a matter of you need to redo the sensor package on the drone itself to incorporate the smartgun sensors.

So how do you make space/sensor capacity for those, you give the drone the improved sensor array mod, which seems to up it's sensor attribute by 1 as well as increasing it's individual sensor channels to the next larger drone/vehicle grade. Well jumped in rigger is firing using sensor + gunnery. That's a +1 improvement in firing right there... which given the other bonuses of smartlink which are already in a drones aiming software (ballistics information)... it makes sense to limit it to a single die off the sensors. (the +1 improvement in sensors and abilities comes from the sensors you've now built into the gun, and linked back using your extra sensor capacity of the drone).

In any case, Tarantula, always fun arguing with you. I don't think either of us are right or wrong until the powers that be weigh in.

It doesn't. It never says that it is included. And the sensor package does not include smartgun modifications. Thats enough for me to definitively say it doesn't come with it.


Sure, anything can be changed as GMs see fit. Players on the other hand can't arbitrarily change things. Though, they can certainly modify that sensor suite, and being that it has cameras, add smartlink accessories to those cameras.


Yes. So, for a smartlink to work, you need smartlink mod on the gun, and a smartlink mod on the display.
Smartlink gun mod has those sensors, for measurements for the gun. Smartlink mod on the display is what shows the info (in this case, you could put it on the camera). One or both of them do processing on the data also.


Agreed. It is not already being done by the drone, the sensors aren't in the right places (not on the weapon but are on the bumper for example with the range finder).



The drone doesn't need to see those sensor inputs though. The smartlink mods take it and process it, not the drone.

You are right that a laser sight does not stack with a smartlink. You could mount a weapon on a drone, and put a laser sight on it for +1, or put a smartlink on it and on the cameras for +2.


The arguement you're using is that it does not say it does not come with smartlink. Thats like me saying my gun does not say it does not come with a silencer. You can buy a silencer and put it on. But it doesn't say it doesn't come with it.

That's a limited counter-argument. Not all mods are pertinent to drone mounted weaponry. The question hinges on is smartlink an appropriate mod for a drone already firing through cameras and sensors and which already has software on it to aim those weapons electronically.

A shockpad for example, is pointless for a drone. It reduces recoil by bracing the weapon in the shoulder. Same goes for a sling.

My position boils down to, the rigger is already operating in full VR w/ his aiming information provided for him by the drones sensors. A meatspace runner is in augmented reality with extra targetting info provided he normally wouldn't have by the smartgun sensors and software. Is it a distinction with or without difference...

I also disagree on the drone and sensors. Just because a drone includes a comms scanner as part of it's sensors doesn't mean that it doesn't increase the vehicles ability to target (through it's sensors rating, the jammer is over there in that direction!). Increased sensors give increased information on where things are in relation to the drone. The point is that the rigger doesn't have access to the smartgun sensors, unless they're part of the drones sensor package. I don't think you can just overlay it on the basic camera already part of the drone.

I'm off for a while, thanks for the long reply, helps me understand your position much better.

14) A metahuman can store or implant a gun into a cyberarm for a minimum of capacity - for a drone body to replicate this, they need to expend some 4 or 5 slots on a turret. Is there any way, by RAW, to replicate a small stored or installed weapon without using up the Otomo's whole modification limit to do so?

Per GM the mechanical arm mod for vehicle can accept accessories (for capacity) like a cyberarm.

I'll disagree to a point here.


Drones get their body in RC by nature of being a drone. I would allow for a shock pad to increase their RC by 1 (as it is absorbing some fo the shock before the drone body does). I would also allow a sling, (most likely fluff describing it as looping it to something lower than the gun, and helping to keep the barrel from rising during firing).


Arguably, the vehicle is providing aiming data based on the turret and where the turret is pointing, not the weapon. Its less precise.


A "comms scanner"? I don't see a "comms scanner" In the list of vehicle sensors. NOt sure what you're talking about there.

Again, I agree, the vehicles sensors are for position of things relative to the vehicle. The smartlink gives info relative to the weapon, which is more precise, thus granting the bonus. Smartlink is a vision enhancement. Cameras can take other vision enhancements such as vision mag, so there is no reason you can't add smartlink to one.



No problem. And in the future, call it a discussion not an arguement. More civil 'n all that way.

15) A hacker adept with Improved Reflexes 3 and hot-sim has 4 IPs in AR, but only 3 IPs in VR, correct?

16) Technomancers can still see and interact with AR, correct? One of the game organizers at GEN CON told us that technomancers could only "feel" the Matrix, and have to go full VR (and therefore, catatonic) in order to access it. I thought this was retarded, but the BBB never specifically mentions it, so far as I can tell. I would assume the omission was permission, as in, "all users of the Matrix can see and interact with AR and technomancers are no exception."

15) Yes. The usual ways for getting 4 or 5 IPs apply.

16) TMs "feeling" many AR functions is fluff I could live with, but they are certainly able to use the AR. Unless someone can whip up a quote to the contrary?

16) technomancers effectively have a built-in, natural sim module with DNI. you can access AR with trodes (DNI) and a sim module (in fact, the BBB states that this is a very common method of accessing AR). therefore, technomancers can access AR.