Infected (vampires, ghouls, etc.), Drakes, and Changelings cost BP becasue they are not what your character is but rather something that changes your character. Shapeshifters, Sasquatch, Pixies, and Free Spirits are different - they pay no Karma per RAW to gain their 'metatype' under the Karma system.

Er ... if you're asking about grounding, you're probably looking at the wrong edition of Runner's Companion. Just sayin'.


Free spirits have traditions, same as magicians. I suppose one could have a free spirit of the Blood Magic or Insect Shaman tradition, although the same "not intended for use as a PC" disclaimer would apply.


Is it on the list of forbidden qualities?

A question about Friendship pacts. I know that most folks dont think in the context of longterm storytelling and longterm motivations of characters in the games, given the remarks about the lifespan questions. But, from a spirit's perspective, isnt a Friendship pact a form of spiritual suicide?

Given that once a pact is made, it is permanent.
From SM "Ending a spirit pact without the death of one or both of the participants is usually not possible and is the stuff of epic magic and plot devices. Any time a character and a spirit have a pact, either party may be used as a sympathetic link (see p. 28) to other or to astrally track the other."

And from RC "This pact does exact a toll on the spirit. Every time a pact member dies, the spirit’s Force rating is reduced by one. Its natural maximum attributes are also reduced, which may cause the reduction of one or more attribute ratings; if a spirit’s Edge is reduced, it also loses at least one Power Point worth of critter powers. If all of the spirit’s pact friends die, its Force is reduced to zero and the spirit dissipates into the astral. To help delay this fate, a spirit may burn one of its own Edge to save a pact friend from death (p. 68, SR4). "

So, as a Free Spirit of force 5, I enter into a friendship pact with these five MORTALS. My life is attached to thier's. Now, unless I pick up Formula Pact and all of them agree to enter into Formula pacts, as well as the Friendship pacts, then as they grow old and die. I too start to die, forced to burn alot of the karma that I sweated to get just to buy back what I loose as my friends die. Nothing to say on the fact that, even if they dont aggree to formula pacts, they are all still sympathetic links to me.

From a the prospective of the spirit, kinda hard to see an upside to this.

There are two kinds of racial bp: classical and quality costs. The karma-based system ignores classical metatype BP.

This issue might actually be for the errata. Including a minimum statline in the base cost removes some massive minmaxing options, but also ends up with a different cost under the karma system. From some quick calculation of existing characters, everyone else is gaining substantial power with that change. One could aim for 450 karma.

what's supposed to stop a facey ghost from making more friendshit pacts with other people?

Technically!, a number of friends EQUAL to force. But I really applaud this idea of effectivly putting "you want the approval of your group" into the rules.

They could, but that would just make the issue worse. "Every time a pact member dies, the spirit's Force rating is reduced by one. " It isnt that they loose a force point when their 'circle' of friends drops below there force. But, for every person that have a pact with that dies. They more folks they have pacts with, just means more force they will loose.

Don't forget, if your group / storyteller agrees on the point of low viability of the free spirit character, you can always rule the cost down or raise the starting BP. It is not like those numbers are set in stone; the BBB allready states that. Make all of the stuff fit your campaign.

And more Force they can have.

Ever played an Orion ship in Starfleet Battles?

I recommend that anyone reads the Bartimaeus triology before playing a free spirit. I´d be willing to take that 15 BP flaw twice. "Sorry, master calling..."

And the 250 BP should definitly grant the player in question a special plot.

The expected remedy to the drawbacks of Friendship Pact seems to be entering in Formula and/or Life Pacts with the same people.

Yeah the Life pact is awesome. I could see the free spirit growing much more quickly than the rest of the group if theres alot of combat in the game, and the other players it's worth the karma expenditure to not die, especially since the free spirit loses nothing.

True, but don't forget that there are two halves to that pact. Somebody has to spend 1 Karma for 2 boxes of damage. How often would you take that deal?

I´d say keep edge lowish (PP´s come from initiation), and buy survival for your friends. That way you can "protect" the more expensive magic attribute, and create incentives for your group to give you karma.

Why is a spirit prohibitet from learning martial arts? (I'm talking about the quality, not specialisation)

I would definitely take that when the other option is to actually burn an edge point to remain alive. Couple of karma to be insta-healed < 1 point of edge at any value.

No doubt many runners would share the same attitude IC. Therefore, the Friendship-Formula-Life Pact combo with all the metahuman "friends" seems to be the default strategy for Free Spirit PCs and all components of the symbiotic Pact combo are mutally beneficial for the Free Spirit and its "friends". You only need to pick your "friends" somewhat carefully as them and you are going to be together for a long, long time.

Er ... assuming your GM allows you to take the Spirit Pact quality more than once (I'm not sure if there are any rules stating that one can't take a quality more than once, although some qualities specifically state that the quality in question can be taken more than once, which implies that one normally can't), have you checked the cost of the metahuman side of that arrangement?

Spirit Pact Quality most definitely can be bought more than once. Cfr. RC, p. 93



As it concerns the Karma bill for the metahumans, they only need to pay for the Formula and Life Pacts, and it gives them immunity to age and a powerful emergency remedy to death.

Sorry, I was talking about the quality for metahumans, from Street Magic.


That comes to something on the order of (PC spirit's Edge) x 20, ne? For the record, I'm not saying that it's an insurmountable amount of Karma, I'm just saying that it's a lot.

Given that Free Spirits most definitely can enter into multiple Spirit Pacts, provided they know them, denying the same opportunity to metahumans would seem useless self-defeating rules lawyering to me. Assuming that everything not expressely permitted is forbidden is one of the surest recipes for disaster, in gaming or elsewhere. There can never be a rulesystem big enough to cover all situations.





Actually it's (PC free spirit's Edge) x 5, which is much more reasonable. And Friendship Pact is for free, so you only have to pay for Formula Pact and Life Pact. And nothing says you have to buy them at the same time (since even the Free Spirit PC probably learns them one at a time). Most often runners would enter the Life Spirit first, to ward against violent death, then the Formula Pact, as they feel age creeping upon. It's a worthwhile investment (especially since the only other viable alternative for immortality is to track down an Infected and persuade her to share her Dark Gift).

"A spirit character may start knowing one additional spirit pact by taking the Spirit Pact power, gaining one new kind of pact each time it is taken." Runners Companion, pg.93

You know I forgot about those qualities. It would go a great deal towards the free spirits 250BP cost if it were intended that the pacts made with a PC free spirit do not force the other players to take those qualities.

I think that's per pact, and I think that's in BP. I'm fairly certain that the Karma cost of a quality is twice its BP cost (I'm going to guess that the rule for that is on or around p. 265 in your hymnal).


I can see where you're coming from. Although, to be fair, the free spirits are using a free spirit power to gain access to their spirit pact(s), while a metahuman is using a quality. I'm pretty sure there are different mechanics for powers and qualities, and that the rules already cover the differences.

In the end, though, it's really about whether you can convince your GM to allow you to do, ne?


Yeah, Wanderer pointed that out, too. I was talking about the Spirit Pact quality, not the power, which is for metahumans (and other sapients, I imagine) and is found in Street Magic. Sorry about that.

I can't imagine that it would be any other way. I would certainly expect there to be some roleplaying involved: trying to convince the other characters that it was worth it. Might even call for some social tests.

Yes, as it concerns Qualities and Powers in general, but here we are addressing the same thing, the same continuous magical bond between a free spirit and a metahuman, only at the end of the Free Spirit PC it gets to be classified as a Power and at the end of the Metahuman PC, a Quality. There seems to be no valid reason why if it can be established multiple times on one end, it couldn't be done at the other end, too. Other than a GM wanting to be a rules lawyering prick. It is plain from the Free Spirit PC chapter, that the spirit of the rules is that the free Sprit PC and its teammates are expected to become tightly bonded, and multiple spirit pacts are the natural avenue for that.

Now that we can have all those useful pacts, the spirit needs to be named Captain Planet or something.

Yeah, you will start out weak. But you are one hell of a force multiplier for your team. They´ll love to give you karma. On the other hand, you need to take care of your friends. They go through chars and you go through magic.

Very, very clever rule.

True, but it's still (Free Spirit PC's Edge) x10 per pact, if you use Karma. A reasonable investment if you acknowledge that in one case it makes you immune to age, and in the other, it gives you the equivalent of a super-efficient Savior Medkit with unlimited uses.

A question along the current line of thought. Say a character (or characters) have a Formula Pact with an Edge 3 free spirit. The character (or characters) paid the 15 BP or 30 karma to have said pact.

If the free spirit later raises thier Edge, do all the characters that have Formula Pacts with the free spirit now have to spend 10 karma?

And if, for some unforseen reason, the free spirit was to lose a permanent point of Edge. Do the character (or characters) suddenly get a windfall of 10 Karma added to them?

I wouldn't say "unlimited uses." If you're out of Karma, you're pretty much sunk. Then the Friendship Pact also zaps the free spirit for a Force or an Edge.

And, of course, it would then be to the spirit's advantage to put its friends in as many reasonably dangerous situations as possible.

I don't see why they ought to pay more. Once the bond is in place, is in place, even if the spirit or the metahuman at either end grow more powerful. It is the same reason why you don't have to re-establish the link in your magical group if you take an Initation, or buy more Magic, or learn more spells/adept powers.

True, I should have said "typically, it grants many more uses than a Savior Medkit".



No real need of that. These are runners. They are perfectly able to pick a reasonably dangerous lifestyle on their own. Plus, as you point out, if they find themselves so often in severe danger that they exaust Karma and buy the farm, the spirit has just shoot itself in the foot. Besides, it doesn't pay to alienate folks that are your Formula by double-crossing and purposefully putting them into danger. Far better to be a loyal companion, pick normal amounts of Karma from the Friendship Pact, and graciously reap additional Karma from uses of the Life Pact that the spirit did not made necessary.

If the PC spirit has that kind of double-cross in mind, far better to use it on other dupes that aren't its Friendship Pact teammates.

I like to be a bit more careful about using the term "valid", but I can think of a few reasons why a spirit might be able to take multiple pacts while a mortal could not. The world of Shadowrun is filled with examples of asymmetrical relationships, whether it be social, economic, magical, or technological. I mean, let's compare corporations to shadowrunning teams, or street gangs to syndicates. Let's look at subscription lists. Let's consider the disparity between summoner and (not-free) spirit.

Here's a question. Given that a free spirit started out its time on Earth as metahumanity's bitch, why wouldn't the tables be turned when it is freed? Sure, you could say "because I don't think it should work that way," and that would be great, and I encourage you to use that at your table, but I'm not sure that's an honest argument.

This line of reasoning may have a point in general, but as it concerns Spirit Pacts it seriously put into question by the fact that it is more beneficial to the free spirit, too, if single or groups of metahumans are able to strike multiple Spirit Pacts with it. It is much more beneficial for the free spirit to have the Friendship-Life-Formula combo with its companions than to be able to make only one Pact with every metahuman. Nobody would gain from having such a restriction into place. Spirit Pacts (especially the ones that FS PC use) do look a lot like a symbiotic relationship, and symbiosis do tend to evolve into more optimized and mutual beneficial relationship.

Therefore, I would not see any big reason to put such a restriction into place, other then purposefully willing the universe to harass free spirits and matahumans alike, and that I do not acknowledge as a valid or honest argument, either. Typically, it's just an excuse for a GM to be a prick.

I think we're going to have to disagree on this one. I don't believe the universe has any particular obligation to be advantageous to anybody, whether it's a free spirit saying "Sir, I exist!" or otherwise. It'd be much more beneficial for humans to automatically and instantly heal from every wound, get free Karma, and be able to teleport at will, but that's not the case even though nobody would gain from having such a restriction in place. I'm either too old or too jaded to agree that "because it would be more beneficial" is a good reason to believe something should be a certain way.

For me, it boils down to whether metahumans can take a quality more than once if that quality does not specifically allow it. I can see where it would be allowed for different pacts, much like Allergy might be allowed for different substances, although I believe whether it's allowable for different pacts or different spirits or both would be up to the GM (again, I'd advocate consideration by other means than optimism, but your table is not my call).

It's also my position that if allowed, it would be a pretty expensive proposition. Both pacts would be pricey (costing a minimum of 20 BP or 40 Karma, if the group was pulling a munchkin, not to mention the two power points from the spirit. Not impossible (if allowed), but expensive.

We are certainly going to disagree about this one. But it is not about wild optimism. It is about the fact that Spirit Pact are proven to be possible on multiple instances on one end, and it would be irrational to assume that it would not be the case on the other end, given that their very nature is that of being a symbiotic, mutually beneficial magical relationship, and that magical phenomena most akin to Spirit Pacts (e.g. membership into magical groups) allow for multiple bonds in the default case, barring a specific provision to the contrary. In the face of this reasoning, the issue that there are is a general rule abnout multiple Qualities to the contrary is IMO most flimsly, since the rule is in all evidence stands for general cases most different and all available evidence for the specific case calls for another exception to this rule, as severla others are known to exist. So the rulesystem lacks an explicit exception for this case ? Well, no rulesystem can ever provide explicit covering of all possible issues, and IMO "everything that is not explicitly permitted is forbidden" is a most pernicious attitude.



Again, in the face of the fact that Free Spirits can strike multiple pacts with ease, I would regard stubbornly clinging to the letter of the law, in the lack of an explicit provisions that things are different for metahumans and spirits, as base rules-lawyering.



Since I do not advocate it by optimism, but by logic, I'm be curious to hear which other considerations would be valid in your view. And Allergy IS allowed for different substances. There are critters with multiple ones.



For all your clinging to the letter of the rule, I notice you are happy to do a little houseruling of yours here. Since the cost for Spirit Pacts is (Spirit's Edge) x 5 BPs, or (Spirit's Edge) x 10 BPs. For powerful spirits may be more than 20 BP/40 Karma, but in many cases is going to be less.

There wouldn't be a discussion on this point unless it wasn't clear which way the relationship actually is, whether it s 1 to Many or Many to Many. Since it is possible for either way to exist, it is not irrational to consider either case.

Without going into detail there's actually three ways
1 to Many
Many to 1
Many to Many

An existing "1 to Many" case actually doesn't preclude some of the others, since it's actually a subset of the "Many to Many" as well.

I'm going to assume this is a weird way of agreeing with me, since it's basically what I said.


I'm not sure I'd call it a house rule so much as an interpretation of existing rules, a GM call, if you will. As to the costs, when I multiply two pacts (being Life and Formula, since Friendship is free) by the spirit's Edge of 2 (the minimum for PC free spirits) times 5 BP, I get 20 BP (which is 40 Karma). What do you get?

OK, there was a previous misunderstanding, I interpreted your stance as charging that amount for each pact. With your clarification it is all OK. Sorry for the mistake.

Sorry for taking so long to answer this; it's a good question and deserves a response. I was going to answer immediately, but then I got distracted by Real Life.

This is something I gave some thought to when writing the drafts. I thought about my own martial arts experiences, and how they have a lot to do with one's own body mechanics and balance. As collections of forces, spirits don't really have body mechanics or balance. While there are other concepts that are important to martial arts (distance, leverage, etc.), without these core concepts, martial arts are less useful to spirits. I was faced with the choice of adding special case rule to martial arts to reflect this or just removing it altogether; I chose to stick with the KISS principle.

Does that make sense?

No.

Body mechanics and balance are a result of the 'collection of forces' that make up the human body. Spirits too have a collection forces that make up their bodies, and it is silly that they cannot learn to optimize them for the purposes of combat - which is really all a martial art is intended to do.

Er ... sort of. The human body also has mass, which spirits lack. And I can't agree that spirits have any sense of balance, since a sense of balance requires a center of mass and the pull of gravity, and spirits lack both.

As far as optimizing a spirit's form for combat, I'd talk to your GM. You might be able to convince him or her that a special non-human martial art would be appropriate for your PC free spirit. If you need a stronger argument, I suggest taking a possession tradition; that would give the spirit some of that mass (and therefore balance) I was talking about. But I'm not convinced that martial arts are appropriate for spirits in general.

EDIT: Out of curiosity, have you practiced any martial arts?

Spirits in a materialized form can imitate mass just as they imitate other properties. Without mass to provide force, they can't exert Strength, but their materialized form allows this...


IOW, they should be able to take Martial Arts, just not the ones inteded for metahumans.


I've gone through several years of Penjak Silat Serak (later Penjak Silat Serbatik), boxing/kickboxing and wrestling supplimentals, and a bit of Krav Maga (which, admittedly, I tended to slip back into my Silat for much of it). I was also an instructor in physical response interventions for the correctional facility where I worked until late 2004. So, yes, I'm a player.

That's the thing; they don't have mass, just force (no pun intended). It may look like it, but they're not really standing on the ground, they're just touching it.


I don't see why not. But that'd be material for a later supplement, not as a sub-sub-subsection of a core rulebook. If it was me writing it, I'd give the quality a different name to prevent confusion.

Yet they are as hard to move against their will as a metahuman with the same Body and Strength - therefore they must be simulating mass. The fact that they can elect to not simulatemass by not materializing or by electing to fly is irrelevant - they have all the advantages of mass when they want it.

That was precisely my thinking. It occurred to me that such an existence was sufficiently alien that mundane martial arts don't fully apply. Thus the "it sorta could work but not really" part of my thinking, and my going with excluding them entirely rather than creating a "free spirits and martial arts" section that would take up valuable word count.

Aren't we agreeing at this point? I may be missing the objection here; could it be more clearly stated?

I'm saying spirits should be able to learn metahuman martial arts because they can mimic all of the capabilities of a metahuman (including their limitations if they so desire). You are saying that spirits should not be able to learn metahuman martial arts becasue they don't have metahuman limitations hardwired in.

That's like saying I can't learn to play wheelchair basketball because I can walk/use my legs and am thus not required to use a wheelchair.

Would you agree with me that part of martial arts is kinetic? That a chunk of it is how your body feels not just where it is? For example, when I'm in contact with someone I'm fighting (like in BJJ, kendo, or fencing in engagement), I often go by how they feel and where my and their balance and mass are. Would you agree?

EDIT: Oh, and I'm not saying you can't learn to play wheelchair basketball because your legs work, I'm saying you can't learn to alphabetize things because you only know a pictographic writing system.

I would agree with Aaron to some extent. I used to fence and I know where your coming from. Sabre was my preference. I'm hoping to find a tutor for bo-jitsu and may be over small pole jitsu (can't recall the name) as such weapons are easy to improvise/own.
But it's manly about putting those movements and tricks in to reflex and the way you think in combat. Knowing your opponents balence is less important that knowing there limits and your own limits. Wether a free spirit would have reflexs or some thing akin to them is a different thing.

Edit: Forgot to write my point.

Irrelevant - spirits are as capable of feeling as any metahuman. For that matter, robots programmed for martial arts should be able to execute the moves as well. Martial Arts in SR is not (generally) mystical mumbo jumbo, it's a system of using the body (flesh or simulated/manufactured) in a systematic way.