When was that, cause as far as i have seen (and i only say that cause i have never seen first edition) None of the shadowrun editions have ever had a class system. Or do you not know/understand what Archetypes are?

If you look through out all the books perviously mentioned you will find tons of helpful rules on how to maximizes social/interaction skills. For instance, in 3rd edition the shadowrun companion 13 pages to help the GM run contacts with social skills in mind. the problem is that all the information tends to be spread out.
Plus, you have to take in to consideration that Socializing is less complicated mechanically than combat. In social situations, 50% of the time it is what the player character or NPC says that could cause a social blunder or success.

I understand just fine. I meant archetype. Sorry.

Time to be wildly unpopular again. The same reason that I quit playing D&D when fourth edition rolled out (and yes, for those about to ask, I've played it more than a few times, yes, I own the Core Books, yes, I even tried the WotC updates) is the same reason that the only fourth edition game I've found that I liked, including this one, is GURPS. Why?

Because here and in D&D especially, the ideology seemed to change to be more plasticine and glitzier at the expense of substance. Hey, that's my read it. I'm not saying "THIS IS HOW THINGS ARE WORLD WITHOUT END AND AMEN", just this is my impression of both systems and is precisely what GURPS did not do. They went, if anything, initially anyway, the opposite direction from that. That may be changing even with them now, as the DF (Dungeon Fantasy) line seems to indicate. GLITZ sells, pure and simple, better than substance does in a world of video game visualization and the computer ability to make the special effects. The Powers have to get higher end. The people have to have more of them. It isn't enough now to play a Fighter (which you can NOT do in D&D 4th edition anymore) who is just a guy who's ATTITUDE is heroic. To be heroic he HAS TO BE capable of doing things that NO normal human being would have a prayer of doing, and do it often. GLITZ is the Holy Grail of the industry and the people who run it are following it.

Now, I'm a very different fish. I think that the more heroic guy is the normal guy who puts his ass on the line WITHOUT being able to do fifty impossible things before breakfast. HE'S the guy who impresses me. For me the guy who can be mortally wounded one moment and fine as paint the next is BORING unto the point of tears. Did he do something impressive? Nah, he knew he could sleep walk through it. And mentally he probably did. When you can do the impossible it's no big deal to do it. It's when you can't get near it, and still do it anyway, or even fall short but TRY your damnedest... THAT is IMPRESSIVE!

For me, give me style and substance over glitz EVERY day of the week, not just any day. Superman never impressed me. Batman was much more impressive if only because he was human, sometimes he got his butt sawed off, sometimes he outright lost... and you didn't need someone capable of leveling mountains to get him there. I remember one old comic where some nameless mook busted a two by four across his face and it was good night Brucey. For me THAT is INFINITELY more impressive than Superman taking on Doomsday.

But yeah, I realize that this is just me. I'm a dinosaur after all it seems. Hey, I was shilling HARD for 4th edition D&D before it came out. Begging people on the WotC Boards who were loosing their minds about it to give it a chance. When we starting getting previews of it I tried desperately to tell myself it was just marketing ploys that were making it look the way it did. God, I hate to be wrong. *lol* But when i am, I fess up to it. One of the last posts I made on the WotC boards was an apology for shilling for the glitz, for telling people to wait and see, we (the hard core gamers) weren't going to be just blown off. Ahh well, when you screw up, you admit it and go on.


Isshia

Wow, double posted somehow.

To this day Shadowrun still uses classes. They're just openly skilled and level-less classes which can (usually) be multi-classed with ease. Off the top of my head I can think of four; Augmented (the default class), Magician, Adept, and Technomancer. Each has their own unique set of rules. You can't multi-class a Technomancer with a Magician or Adept. Multi-classing an Augment with any of the other three drastically interfers with the secondary class. etc.

Archetypes are simply basic character concepts created using those classes. Or do you not know/understand what archetypes are?

lol.... Unfortunately, i do since i have to learn all about them in my film and history classes to get my media and animation degree.

But that not a class. The only thing that comes close to a class is a magician. The reason for this is that have to choose either full magicain at A priority or an aspect magician at priority B (as far as using the priority system, i don't use the other way to make characters). It not like later on you can say hey i want to learn magic- its already to late. So if you are saying there is a class system in shadowrun, its a very short one; consisting of only Magician or non-Magician. The reason for this is because you basically can start out as a face and later buy the stuff you need to deck or the stuff you need to be a rigger, or you could cyber yourself out. But you cannot buy magic.. Oh, and you don't have to make a character that is augmented.. so thats not really a class.

A archetype is the collectively inherited unconscious idea, pattern of thought, image, etc., universally present in individual psyches. if it was a class then you would be asked in the book to select one, which you are not. As in third edition the steps to creating a character are: Choose a race, Choose a magic ability (if any), choose abilities, assign skills, assign resources, contacts, lifestyle, the nuyen shuffle, and finishing touches. In fourth edition it is basically the same thing.
Really the only reason they even talk about archetypes is for those people who have no idea of what they want to play and an archetype or "basic idea" gives them somewhere to jump off from when designing a character.

You didn't really read anything I wrote did you? Because you basically just restated what I did, but failed to comprehend the class system used in Shadowrun. (And yes, there's more than "magician and non-magician," as I pointed out in my previous post.)

Just because they don't use the word "class" doesn't mean they don't exist. Classes aren't restricted to level-based or pre-packaged systems.

What do you mean by that?

oh, i read it.. i just thought it was crap, but hey if you want to think that way then fine.

<shrugs>

Feel free to try to build an Adept Technomancer and let me know how well that goes since classes don't exist in Shadowrun. Afterwards, try to make a magician Bodyguard and then an augmented Bodyguard and see how well that goes. Or, wait, are archetypes simply character concepts while the ability to cast spells, use adept powers, or compile sprites are reliant on specific classes? No, that can't be the case.

Archetypes have nothing to do with classes. They're only tangently related, such as needing to be a magician in order to be a Street Shaman. But, say, an Occult Investigator can easily be a magician, an adept, or even an augment/cyborg with the Astral Sight quality. All of which are different classes in Shadowrun.

And by class, I mean a general group of character concepts that use their own rules and limitations to provide special abilities to a character. As opposed to skill- or gear-reliant concepts.

You only grabbed part of the statement. The whole thing was: It isn't enough now to play a Fighter (which you can NOT do in D&D 4th edition anymore) who is just a guy who's ATTITUDE is heroic.

The 4th edition D&D Fighter, even if supposedly human, is markedly super human. He can be, multiple times per day after just a few levels, but immediately at first level at LEAST once per day, brought to deaths door, so badly wounded that he is utterly incapacitated (say, -9 or so hit points), then given first aid for a few seconds to "stabilize him" because he's "dying" and then, after combat, withOUT even the simple use of a skill with a VERY low DC, this recently stabilized, DYING person can spend healing surges to heal himself back to full health and vigor in mere moments. Multiple times per day. All of this WITHOUT any supernatural anything...except the obviously supernatural nature of the supposed human being.

The above is the major beef I have with it. But also, you can't be a normal human being and be effective as a Fighter in 4th edition D&D. Normal standard human beings, no matter how heroic they are (because heroism is ENTIRELY about your attitude, not about your kewl pwrs) just aren't good enough anymore. The most basic class in D&D goes FAR beyond the ability of the normal standard human to learn. They must now all have powers which even at minimal levels are obviously powers, even if minor ones, things that non Fighter type human beings just can NOT do. They can't even learn how to do it without becoming Fighters (class name in trademark quotes) themselves, because these things have nothing to do with being a person, but with being a beyond human being.

Glitz, glamor, the power spiral, call it what you will, it all adds up to one thing. Being human isn't NEARLY enough to be a hero.

I say: BUNK! The glitz, the super powers, the rockzor amazo asshat nonsense isn't what makes the hero any more than the sword Excalibur made Arthur a hero.

But that's just me. Personally I liked Aragorn a hell of allot better before he started running around with Narsil, when he charged the Ring Wraiths with a burning stick in each hand. I liked Elric better without Stormbringer, when he needed to use drugs just to keep on his feet. I always loved it when Conan LIMPED, or fought on with his sword arm slowing from fatigue, before finally being overwhelmed. Because these guys always won through in the end on HEART, on attitude, because IT, not the ephemeral lesser qualities of their swords or whatever, was what made them heroic. They OVERCAME the great odds, and you could identify with them, even Elric (who was not human) even Conan (who was an archetype more than a human) even Arthur and Aragorn, who were both a bit more than human, because they suffered the same frailties as human beings. THAT, not their abilities or powers, is what made them interesting.

4th Edition D&D has lost that totally, 4th edition Shadowrun edges ever further away from humanity, but still retains far more of it. Many of the newer games are going for the VERY visual "kewl pwrs" angle and away from what REALLY makes a hero a hero.

[/end rant]

Isshia

edit: added the bolded part

You know, I had a long reply written up, but screw it. At this point all we are arguing about are play styles. You want to play John McClane (I want that RPG as well), and 4e is about playing Beowulf and Gilgamesh, Merlin and Hercules (which I enjoy for a change). Mechanics can be argued, but play style is a waste of time, and I won't try to convince you that 4e fits yours. But please don't insult the players of 4e by calling us/them childish with no sort of role playing talent who only want shiny things and cool tricks. 4e is a heroic fantasy game (in the way that Beowulf is a tale of heroic fantasy), and it succeeds well at that.

I agree with Cantankerous.... which he was not talking about play style- he was talking about the mechanics.

The problem is that there are way better non-D&D games out there that do the whole heroic journey. What the point of playing through the Heroic journey if there is no fear of death. Look back at what Cantankerous pointed out, no matter how badly fragged up you are after a battle- you'll be up and running in a matter of moments thanks to lame super mario/donkey kong styled powers/abilities. The heroes of old- even if they were the son of a god, still need the people around them to help them on the way. You don't even need that with 4E. every class can heal and the priest class is still need only because they act more like a boost for healing, but if you don't have one then it will be no sweat. The point of the heroic journey is to test the boundaries of the human existence, but you can't do that if death is not always around every corner to strike fear in the character's heart.
On top of this the typical D&D gamers attitude tend to be the opposite of the heroic- but i wont get started on that.

And there you are both wrong. Every character has access to a Second Wind ONCE per encounter, which recovers 1/4 of their hitpoints. That's not inhuman, it's not unheroic, it's exactly what you want- the character pushing the boundaries of what his/her body can do and continuing on. Clerics are still needed to access the other healing surges. Without a healing class (cleric or warlord) you will suffer, greatly. I still don't understand why people seem to think death is not possible in 4e, as it is just as likely as it was in the previous edition (where clerics had more healing abilities and you could simply spam wands of healing).
If you have trouble accepting healing after battle, then understand what hit points are. They are an abstract of how well your character is. They aren't health boxes like Shadowrun and WoD has that directly track damage, hit points instead track exhaustion, willpower, luck, resolve, health, and the ability to turn deadly strikes into glancing blows (most of that directly quoted from the PHB). A 12th level fighter can't take 7 direct blows to the head from a great club, but he can fighter through several minor glancing blows and a minor concussion. Yes you can simply take a short rest and use as many healing surges as you need, but that only happens once or twice a day.
"The heroes of old- even if they were the son of a god, still need the people around them to help them on the way." Like who? Not Beowulf, he tore the arm off a troll with his bare hands and single handedly slew the mother (he did have some assistance killing the dragon, but he was old and weak then). Not Hercules, who completed 10 of the 12 tasks by himself (only the cleansing of the stables and the slaying of the lion did he have assistance with). And that's not to mention that the heroes you play in 4e do have people around to help them- their party.
"I agree with Cantankerous.... which he was not talking about play style- he was talking about the mechanics." No. The mechanics work perfectly for the genre, you and Cantankerous simply want the game to be something it isn't trying to be (and gloss over the parts of the game that are what you want).
"On top of this the typical D&D gamers attitude tend to be the opposite of the heroic- but i wont get started on that." Has nothing to do with the edition. Don't even try to go down that road.

I don't want THAT game to be anything. I simply wish that they wouldn't call it a Fantasy Role Playing Game when it is only possible to play a single style of fantasy even decently: which might be best referred to as anime style fantasy. They still tout themselves as a broad based Fantasy system. They aren't. You can't do any of the classic fantasy genre styles except gods and demigods.

Ohh, and how is taking yourself from deaths door, DYING, as per the D&D RAW, to almost 1/4 of your hit points in a few seconds, without magic NOT supernatural? A team mate can spend an action in combat to allow you a second wind, where you can go from negative hit points, dying as per the RAW, to back to fighting, in mere seconds. If you then spend a few rounds yourself doing simple healing surges, you can, while combat is still going on around you, take yourself from death's door to fully good to go, without magic, in less than thirty seconds. You don't get much more supernatural than that. And if you have a few extra healing surges, say from being some levels up, you can do it more than once per day.

So, unless you are wanting to play super heroes, because the Beowulf of legend certainly goes far beyond any human ability in nearly every respect, you aren't wanting D&D 4E. Correct?

Ohh, and McClane is definitively suited to D&D 4E more than any other game I've seen, except maybe DC Super Heroes.


Isshia

I think a more realistic mechanic of a dying character pushing himself would be more like how 3rd edition shadowrun has it set up. When you take a Deadly physical wound you must make a willpower test against a target number to stay conscious, however, you will need to make that same said roll every time you take damage until you have meet your overflow total or pas out/ fail the test.

1/4 of your hit points is not like a blood clot forming over the wound(s). You don't go from exhausted and dazed from blood lose to ok in that amount of time unless your a video game character or in an anime. Hell, even first aid can't do what 4E surges do.

Again, I either did not explain it correctly or you just refuse to understand, hitpoints do not just reflect physical wounds. That's not me defending 4e by "interpreting" what the book says, that is what the PHB actually says on the matter.
It's not a gritty game, nobody ever said that, but it is a game of heroics. It is a cinematic game (don't call it an Anime Fantasy Roleplaying Game, it's not. That's gamer elitism bashing what the young kids do. I myself hate anime, but it doesn't stop me from loving Exalted), and it does a very good job at making mythic and legendary heroes (for whom death is just as likely as before).
"If you then spend a few rounds yourself doing simple healing surges, you can, while combat is still going on around you, take yourself from death's door to fully good to go, without magic, in less than thirty seconds." No, that is wrong, entirely wrong. Every character gets a Second Wind, which is a 25% health boost ONCE per encounter that uses up a Healing Sure. Once. It requires specific powers (which are for the most part unique to the healing and leadership classes) to use more Healing Surges.
"So, unless you are wanting to play super heroes, because the Beowulf of legend certainly goes far beyond any human ability in nearly every respect, you aren't wanting D&D 4E. Correct?" I'll ignore the "super heroes" bit, it's no more true in 4e than in 3rd. But yes. You don't play Heroes for it's vulnerable and easily defeated characters; you don't play Exalted for a mundane and gritty world; and you don't play Shadowrun for tales of upstanding, peaceful characters. Likewise, you don't play 4e because you want a game about a bunch of farmers and tradesmen who have a grudge against some orcs- you play it because you want to play a hero (whether or not your character is a hero is based entirely upon how you play it) who journeys into the darkness and is the center of some really cool stories.
"You don't go from exhausted and dazed from blood lose to ok in that amount of time unless your a video game character or in an anime." Or you know, any character from any action movie, or literary characters (you know, people like Conan). I'll repeat it, the Second Wind is usable ONCE per encounter.

Look man, to state something is anime style (over the top everyone has powers and can snap back from near death when they want to, IS anime style, not cinematic...there have been plenty of movies, more perhaps, where a hero goes down when he's hurt than he ignores it and fights on, so it sure as Hell is NOT cinematic style) isn't bashing it. If you like the style cool, but if you don't it isn't cool to try to call other peoples acknowledgment of it's existence BASHING it simply because YOU don't like it.

As to Healing Surges: true, true, you have to wait until combat is over. Brain fart there. But then, after a five minute rest you can spend as many of them as you like, up to your maximum per day.

Let's take an example: Your character has 60 hit points normally and during combat he takes 67 hit points worth of damage. He is, as per the rules, DYING at this point. Without help he is going to need a short rest before becoming conscious, at the very least. So, without help he is badly enough bashed about to be, at the dead least, unconscious for five minutes. He may also actually die if he fails three death saves. This isn't small potatoes then. Yet, he can get a First Aid check from his friend while he is still in combat, giving him a second wind roll, and a healing surge thusly. Now, the combat ends next round and he didn't get hit again, so he's at 7 hit points (if you count zero). Our Fighter with the sixteen Con had say, 12 healing surges left before combat started. He's used one in his second wind to take him from dying, to fighting unimpeded. After a five minute rest he then spends three more to bring him back to 52, but not being satisfied, he spends one more to get back to full. Yep, he went from deaths door to combat effective in seconds, during combat mind you, and back to fine as ever in five and half minutes MINUS after combat is over. Without magic.

For shits and grins, taken to negative 12 in the next fight he does exactly the same thing again. Twice in a day, he's been revived from near death to PERFECT health with six TOTAL minutes elapsed time per combat. Without magic...AGAIN!

Now, let's say that in that second combat he took his 73 points of damage that time around from a looooong fall off a cliff. Actually it doesn't matter in the least HOW he took the damage after all. It could have been from laying in lava and being yanked out before it totally consumed him. The point is that even in THAT situation he could then have a friend give him first aid, leap to his feet (albeit with 2 hit points left initially) and fight on unimpeded. Then after a five minute rest, after having already miraculously been rendered unconscious and dying once in the day and jumping right back in to combat, he does it a second time after a fall that would have killed a warhorse, our boy is back up and running in seconds, and completely and utterly fit at the same "hit points" as he has at perfect health, within five and a half more minutes. AGAIN, without magic.

Sorry. That simply IS supernatural. Period.



Isshia

I'm not going to lie, I don't like hit point systems (so it is very hard for me to defend it, but I do not think it ruins 4e in anyway). I think they are silly, and almost anything else would be better. As you pointed out with the lava, it doesn't accurately represent how damage is dealt, only that damage is dealt. Which means you have to take into consideration things that impede your combat effectiveness besides physical damage, like exhaustion or being mentally defeated. Ever watched a Jackie Chan movie? There is no way any normal human could go through that amount of punishment and keep on fighting. Ever read Xuthal of the Dusk? Conan gets beaten and cut to ribbons, way beyond what any mortal should be able to take, and then kills Thog. Literature and film are full of characters who get "killed", and then keep fighting anyways.
4e characters aren't mundane by any means, but these are people who regularly slay dragons and slaughter demons (and there has to be something that makes Fighters able to keep up with Wizards). It's not about playing King Arthur, but about playing Achilles, Ajax, Ulysses, Beowulf, Hercules, and Sigmund- characters who stand out from the crowd and carve their names into history.

What do they call Hit points then if they are not the measurement of your general health? I wont be able to say if you are correct or not until i know. I would look this up, but i deleted my copy for the trash that it was.

Hit point systems are ok, they just don't reflect health as well as other mechanics can- such as "In dark alleys" which has a good health track system to it.

And is almost dead himself afterward. And doesn't recover in mere moments. Conan, as written by Howard (and deCamp and Carter) is TOUGH! But he DOES get wounded and the wounds do take him down. He keeps on going, not beyond any mortal, but FAR beyond what the average warrior could take. Conan is ENTIRELY mortal, and if he weren't he would loose most of his appeal. He is fought to a stand still by other warriors more than once and as he gets old he looses some of that titanic strength and boundless endurance. Where Conan goes almost into the realm of the archetype is in that he is weak nowhere. He's intelligent (if unlearned) and speaks more languages than most scholars by the latter stages of his career. He's strong as hell, although there are men stronger, like Baal Pteor, he's tremendously quick and fast and enduring and charismatic and ....you get the picture. But all within human bounds. THAT is what makes Conan Conan! .


Isshia

plus Conan is more of a higher level character even in the first book, since he had years of special training and pit fighting experience.

Dr. Funkenstein is correct. Shadowrun is a class system. Similarly, IRL, I am of the class 'computer security expert', with the sub-class 'policy expert'. I've also dual-classed into the popular 'husband/father' role since our party didn't have one yet. I haven't been published yet, but I'm also hoping to add the class 'author'. I let my 'gamer' class lapse, but I don't think the skills have degraded too far. So right there I guess I have four separate classes, although I'm sure I missed a few.

Honestly, no, I don't think Shadowrun has a class system unless you squint at it funny. At best it has a pseudo-class system. Everyone can be a sam or a decker or even a rigger. In fact, most people do have some significant experience with firearms, which would imply either just about everyone is class street sam, or no one is class street sam. Most people have at least limited experience decking, so you can say that everyone is of class decker, to one degree or another (if the limit is 'must be able to deck'), or some deckers change from deckers to nothing at all depending on the circumstances (if the limit is 'must have the equipment to deck' - i.e. a deck). Riggers are even worse. People regularly drive the party in missions even without a VCR, and there are dedicated drivers who never get a VCR. However, many VCR-3 riggers find that they have no vehicles at their disposal at one time or another. So what makes someone of a particular class? You can't simply say 'it's based on having this skill' or 'it's based on what the character actually does in the party'. People have skills not related to their driving focus, and play roles through necessity they aren't optimized for. You can't base it on gear, because gear comes and goes. A decker who loses his deck is still a decker. You can't base it on cyberware. It's not hard to make an adept who can realistically compete with a VCR rigged guy, or someone who uses a trodenet but still does illegal decking. The lines are too fuzzy, and any attempt to say 'you are a decker and you are not' is necessarily arbitrary.





You can't win me over to SR4 by using the old 'style over substance' adage!! I know how much style SR3 has!

@nezumi
I think you are targeting the wrong aspects of SR to draw class examples. As Dr. Funk wrote, and I agree with, the four classes are: Augmented (the default class), Magician, Adept, and Technomancer. Now each of those classes can rig, deck or shoot a gun...point is, I think you are misunderstanding the class "discussion".

@Cantankerous
I'd certainly agree that DnD4 is more supernatural or above the top than prior editions. You really don't have the option of playing a "normal guy" that just has the attitude of hero...at least without a lot of cutting from the core rules. I mean, you could play a fighter with nothing but basic attacks. You could take all the healing surges and translate those into total hit points and just track that number and not ever surge during the day...but I see your point. I don't feel that that ruins all games, but it is certainly restricting what you seem to want out of the game, from a character standpoint.

In the games I have played so far with my group, we've had to already resurrect one player, I've been knocked unconscious twice (with one surge taking place in combat), our fighter has been knocked unconscious once and been very close to death at least 3 times and our mage has been low at least 3 times in separate combat. As the warlord of the group, I can only surge people twice per encounter...after that, its up to them using an action point to second wind or forgoing an attack for a second wind. I'd say that (and it may just be our DM) DnD4 is more deadly than any other edition we've played. We are always going negative or dying...its just that it is a lot easier to get back to health.

Now, as you put it, this is a bad thing. The mechanics don't let you be heroes. But, on the flip side, the mechanics let our group move on to the next fight...without having to travel into town for healing, without having to rest 6-8 hours for our cleric to re-mem his spells, heal and then rest another 6-8 so we can move on at full power. I don't know, I just kinda feel like we get more "meat and potatoes" done in 4th. We get more combat, more treasure and more time to roleplay for personal reasons...as opposed to roleplay because we need to be healed or need more rest.

I actually feel more heroic with our 4th edition group than past groups. We can take on a lot more in a day and we don't need to rest nearly as much. If our surges are drained and our daily powers are gone...yeah, we'd rather rest 6-8 hours to get back to full strength before going into the final room of the dungeon. But, that doesn't seem to ruin everyone's fun and none of us have gotten hung up on the fact that no, "normal human" can do this stuff. I guess I've really never even attempted to correlate real human to any game I have played...so this has never been a flaw to any game system I have played.

hmmmm... If i squint at this it looks like it says Magician, adept, and technomancer (which is crap 4th stuff) are seperate. but if i remember right adepts and technomancers are magicians??? how weird. Cause as i understood it Adepts are a magician who channels their powers inward.. where as technomancer( the lame version of otaku) is a magician that can manipulate and connect with the matrix much like a normal magician would connect to the astral plane.. So more like sub-classes and a whole separate class. Plus calling a class augmented would suggest that that you had to at character creation take some form of cyberware.. which you don't... But hey some people like playing cyberpunk 2020 from what i hear.

Ohh, sure. All of this comes down to tastes. Mine simply run differently. Hell, I realize what a dinosaur I am. But being super heroish just does not, in any manner seem heroic to me. Personally I'm not even fond of playing Mages. If I can't feel a connection to the character, whether it be in a movie or a book or a game, I loose interest fast...really FAST! I'm the kind who Plays Oblivion with the difficulty slider set to 100, all the realism mods I can load on thrown in, all the mods that nerf the uber powers engaged and when the character dies, eh's dead. Level one in the first real fight or level 25 in the final fight, if he dies, game over, start again.


Isshia

True, true...honestly, you don't "have" to follow any real class rules during chargen. That's a plus, as you can create ANYTHING, but it also is a hindrance, cause you could end up with a very poor, playable character. I think ideally, classes are there in SR, its just they are strong recommendations, not firm rules that force you down any of those paths.

I think the thing is, that the rules themselves, have no classes. But, in actual game play, classes do exist...we just don't call them classes and aren't forced down a path. But going down the path, at least for your first couple hundred karma, is a pretty good idea.

@Cantankerous
Hehe...yeah, you are a dinosaur! I understand what you are saying and it intrigues me...it would just take me a while to get use to that type of playstyle. I commend you and definitely can see how each character you create is a major hero...especially if he survives for a while.

Realistically, you should change your play style if you tend to kill or nearly kill your character every combat session or so. Cause this means that you are doing something fundamental wrong; probably tactics wise.

There's the truth of it.

Honestly, when I played Oblivion, as outlined above, my first two characters died at low levels, including one who was barely out of the sewers and ventured across to the ruins of, I don't remember what, but directly across from the sewer exits, and ran in to four bandits plus the pair of guards that were supposed to be there and after running away from that crowd, he ran almost face first in to the trio of orcs guarding the entrance to the ruins of the Fort directly to the south Syonara baby.

But the third guy, built for stealth and SPEED managed to finish the main scenario and become Head of the Thieves Guild (which was worse than the main quest for pity sake) along the way. In no small part on his ability to run away when the situation warranted it.


Especially in Shadowrun though you can easily survive on tactics and preparation and, in short, being a smart runner, without magic, without even cyberware. One of those rare and precious occasions where I got to play for an extended period of time I played what was basically a jack of all trades type with very little cyberware, no magic and tons of skill spread out over a bit of everything and just plain tactical know how. That was the most fun I've ever had with a SR character.


Isshia

I don't know what this 'technomancer' thing is. I suppose you could define the classes as 'adept', 'mage/shaman/whatever' and 'everything else under the sun', with the understanding that you can, and most likely will, multi-class between the three with few real limitations. And of course, someone in the mage/shaman/whatever class and the adept class can change to the 'everything else' class pretty easily.

May as well describe Shadowrun as a class system between 'drop bear' and 'prey'. At least then it's clear when someone is one or the other.

The age old adage works well in gaming: Never eat anything bigger than your head.

Now if you don't think its your playing style, then you should roast some coals under your GM cause he is plain out to get you.

What about a big ceasar salad?

thats more a grouping of small items and safe to eat.. unless you fear the color green.

I could not agree with you more on this.

Is "crunching more numbers" the same as "thinking more"? The role-playing bit of RPGs is always there. It just depends on how much the group wants to engage in it.

you can still have more content to the game system without it becoming a "numbers crunching" beast. in my own system i have many rules that should cover just about anything the characters can pull out of their hoop, but they don't cause the game to become overbearing or unbalanced. why? because they are based of the same basic rules and only the Gm need to worry about them.

I'd rather have a basic set of rules that address common situations than a phone book that covers every eventuality. A GM should be able to deal with PC actions using the spirit of the rules rather than memorizing a law book. Plus there are always optional rules introduced in expansion productions.

Use the old ones. I still draw quite a bit of material from some of my first and second edition books. In particular I use the availability and price mod charts, as well as the crime punishment charts quite often. Plus the history sections don't change too much with newer editions.