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JonathanC
The backstory is that Zafira grew up in Iraq or a similar Middle Eastern country. At an early age her parents, who were rather poor, had to sell her. She was fortunate enough that the crimelord who picked her up was a cousin, and somewhat fond of her; also fortunate was the fact that she was literate. She spent the next several years working as a combination secretary, accountant, and majordomo (well, minordomo would be more accurate, I guess). Her small stature also made her an ideal burglar, and she was trained to sneak into the compounds of her cousin's enemies to steal important documents. She also oversaw the books for gambling, weapon sales, and even human trafficking. It was the latter that would prove to be her undoing, in the end. As she saw more and more young children sold into the worst types of servitude, she always steeled herself with the thought 'better them than me'. That was, until the day that a childhood friend of her's, Umm Shayad, came through the office. She was to be re-sold to a wealthy prince who was rumored to engage in all manner of odd, cruel acts, including cannibalism. Shayad tried to escape, and was severely beaten in reprisal, nearly dying from her wounds.

That night, Zafira snuck Shayad out of the compound to get medical attention, telling herself that she was going to bring the girl back as soon as possible; her cousin would thank her, as he would be out of a lot of money if the girl died. Indeed, when he called her to find out what had happened, he sounded rather forgiving, and she could even hear him having the men who nearly killed his merchandise shot on the other end of the phone. "Just bring her back to me now...we'll take care of her privately" he said. "I'm sending the car. You've done a good thing." But Zafira couldn't bear to see her friend suffer any longer, and in a surprising act of bravado, she stole the car and drove the poor girl as far away as she could, escaping across northern Iraq to Turkey. It was during this trip that she lost her left hand, after a passing tribal policeman caught her siphoning fuel from his car. He would have done much worse afterward, but Zafira managed to escape. Now marked as a thief, it was much more difficult to travel, and her cousin's influence followed closely behind.

After a rough trip, the pair arrived in Turkey, where Zafira set upon the second part of her plan. She knew the details of her cousin's banking and money laundering schemes, and figured (correctly) that he didn't think enough of her to worry about her stealing the money in those accounts. She managed to drain a considerable sum of money, with the intent of escaping to America and establishing a new life. Sadly, this was not the case, as her cousin's men found the two girls in their safehouse. Shayad was still in poor shape, and Zafira did everything she could to shield her, distracting the men long enough for Shayad to escape with enough certified cred to escape the country. Zafira still has no idea where Shayad is. During the commotion, the police arrived and arrested everyone who remained, including Zafira. She tried to explain the situation, but with her missing hand she was dismissed as a liar and a thief, and possibly worse. Her cousin, through his contacts in the Iraqi police, arranged to have her extradited. Just prior to transferring her, however, the Turkish police severed her right hand during a public display intended to discourage a rising tide of youth crime. Luckily for her, the public dismembering came under attack and she was able to escape in the confusion. Bleeding badly, she managed to drag herself to a sympathetic street doc. With what remained of the money she'd stolen, Zafira managed to buy replacement hands, and a few more modifications to protect herself; she'd been bullied for long enough. She also got as far away from the Middle East as she could, working as a professional burglar in Israel, then moving briefly to Western Europe, and finally to Los Angeles, where she has begun taking shadow work as a Face and Infiltrator.

Zafira 400 points

Body 3
Agility 5
Reaction 3
Strength 3
Charisma 4
Logic 3
Intuition 3
Willpower 3
190
Essence 3.10
Edge 3

Negative Qualities
Enemy (connection 3/incidence 2) Ali Ben Saiyyid 5 points
Wanted 10 points

Contacts 10 points
Jorge Santiago, Dock foreman Connection 2 Loyalty 2
Jamal Tamir (Talent Agent) Connection 4 Loyalty 2

SKILLS
Stealth SKill Group 4 (40)
Disguise
Infiltration 5 (4 more points)
Palming
Shadowing
Athletics SKill Group 1 (10)
Climbing
Gymnastics
Running
Swimming
Influence Skill Group 3 (30)
Con
Etiquette
Leadership
Negotiation (bargaining) 3/5 2 points
Pistols (semi-automatics) 4/6 (14 points)
Exotic Melee Weapon - Monofilament Whip 4 (16 points)
Pilot Ground Craft (wheeled) 2 (4) [14]
Hardware (Maglocks) 4/6 [18]
Locksmith 4 [16]
Perception (hearing) 2/4 (10 points)
Electronic Warfare 3 [14 points]

Obvious Cyberhand (agility 5) 14250 total
Hermes Ikon Commlink implanted
Datajack
Fingertip Compartment

Obvious Cyberhand 5000 nuyen capacity 4
(customized agility 5 +3000 nuyen, modular cyberlimb [multiply by 1.1 for final cost]) Final cost 8,800 nuyen
Scanner System Rating 4 2000 nuyen, Holdout Pistol 800 nuyen
Plugins:
Welding Laser 3000 nuyen
Drone Hand 3500 nuyen

Wired Reflexes 2

Varshon Island Steampunk Line 2000 nuyen total
Overcoat 3/3 1000 nuyen
Corset 2/2 600 nuyen
Slacks 1/1 400 nuyen

Contact Lenses 375n
Vision Enhancement 3
Image Link

Goggles 1550n
Smartlink
Ultrasound

Lockpick Set 300

Grapple Gun 500

Microwire (100m) 50

Rappeling Gloves 70

Monofilament Whip 3000

Ares Predator 350
50 rounds of regular ammo 100
50 rounds of gel rounds 150
5 spare clips 25
Quick-Draw Holster 100

Actioneer Business Clothes 1,500

Novatech Navi OS 1500
Firewall 6 Upgrade 3000
Command 400
Scan 400
Encrypt 400
Sniffer 4 4000

Fake SIN Rating 4 4000
Fake Driver's License 400
Fake Gun License 400
Hardware Kit 500

Earbuds 10
Audio Enhancement 3 300
Spatial Recognizer 100


(18 points = 90,000) 89,830


Middle Lifestyle 5k 1BP
BishopMcQ
Pistols (semi-automatics) 4/6 (14 points)
Should be 18 pts

Otherwise, it feels like a balanced generalist and all-around criminal type. She can fit in with nearly any group and with some karma under her belt, adapt into any role needed except for Magic talent. There are a few optimizations that you could make, but those are based off of personal play-style and preferences.
JonathanC
She'll be the closest the group has to a face. And yeah, I think I made a note about the changed cost....geez, now I have to redo all of my math...
sunnyside
If the group needs a face this is good.

Also you'll tend to do better in a smaller group. But regardless they're plenty playable.

Also one thing that will make this character better in the long run is that you haven't done the typical thing of loading up on cyberware.

What that means is that this character has more room to grow as cash comes in.

However I always suggest getting the limit on negative qualities. If you don't know what to take ask your GM. They're often more than happy to come up with some fun stuff for you, and they shouldn't feel like your powergaming with a character like this.


Do what you will with the extra, but a solid choice would be putting edge to a respectable 5. Or increase one of your attributes. Perception is also an incredibly useful thing to have for an inflitrator or face. You're out in front. You need to see trouble or you'll take a hurting (depending on GM).
Jackstand
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Aug 31 2008, 06:45 PM) *
Stealth SKill Group 4 (40)
Disguise
Infiltration 5 (4 more points)
Palming
Shadowing

I guess it depends on your GM, but not everyone will let you split the group.
Cain
I don't have the time to completely dissect the character, but here's what I see:

You want a combination Face/Infiltrator. This is a good concept, but your dice pools are small.

For example, you have a dice pool of 10 for Infiltration. That's not too bad, but it's opposed by Perception, and it's fairly easy to pump up a perception dice pool. I also don't see anything that'd help your Infiltration pool, like camo clothing. Your Shadowing dice pool is even smaller; it's 7 dice, because shadowing goes off Intuition. Given an average target (Intuition 3 and Perception 3, no other modifiers), you only have a 1 die advantage, which doesn't even translate to a single extra success. If he has anything to boost his dice pool (like Vision Enhancement), you're pretty much stuck.

The big catch here are your social skills. You only have a dice pool of 9 in your highest area: Negotiation/Bargaining. The Mr. Johnson in the book has a dice pool of 10. You're not going to be able to regularly get extra money or information out of a Johnson. And that, of course, assumes that he doesn't have anything else boosting his dice pool, such as emotoys or Tailored Phermones. The rest of your social skills cap out at 7, which also isn't enough to reliably succeed in many social tests.

Now, there's lots of ways of pumping a social dice pool, I already listed two. I'd definitely go back and see if you can afford to pick up any of them. You want at least a dice pool of 12 in anything opposed in order for your character to be truly effective in an average game. You've got reasonable skills for a secondary character; but to reliably take the lead, you're going to need more.
CanRay
Being a Generalist is never a bad thing. Sure you're not as good as a person that's dedicated a lot of time and effort into training just ONE thing, but you can do so much more.

If all you have are drivers and gunners, and the engine or transmission on the "Vehicle of Death" blows on you, you're screwed.

More importantly, in my mind at least, is that your character has an EXCELLENT backstory! biggrin.gif
masterofm
Wired reflexes adds to your reaction by 2 I think it is nice to show that on your character sheet. There are other cyber/bioware combos that you can follow up on this character later to improve dice quickly, but it might be nice to try maybe skillwires for some of the more generalist skills to allow you to buff you main set of stats quicker?
Cain
QUOTE (CanRay @ Aug 31 2008, 07:55 PM) *
Being a Generalist is never a bad thing. Sure you're not as good as a person that's dedicated a lot of time and effort into training just ONE thing, but you can do so much more.

If all you have are drivers and gunners, and the engine or transmission on the "Vehicle of Death" blows on you, you're screwed.

More importantly, in my mind at least, is that your character has an EXCELLENT backstory! biggrin.gif

Sorry to disagree here, but being a generalist in Shadowrun is never a good idea.

Shadowrun has always been about teams of specialists, working together. People with special expertise form a team, each person handling a certain role. If you're a generalist, you really have nothing to offer to a team; for the same cut of the nuyen, they could get someone better than you for the role.

Having a generalized skill set never hurts; but unless you've got something to offer a team, you're not going to be useful. You have to have a focus. And whatever that focus is, it's got to have a dice pool big enough to back it up. If everyone else has a good variety of skills, they might be able to do everything almost as well as you can. Most generalist build I've seen only have a 1-2 dice pool advantage over a more specialized character, not enough to make a huge difference.

I do agree about the backstory, though. Kudos.
Guru Nath Butterfly
Hi, GM for the game Zafira is created for (your basic Corporate Havens LA PITO story); I think she'll be great for it. I have the opposite experience you have with specialist groups--all the 12 dice purist groups I played with died, over and over, even with a great GM. Diversification, right off the bat, was what moved the groups that worked. When the Rigger got blasted, who could pick up the vehicle and throw chaff and get us the hell out of dodge? Who was holding those backup skillwires? What other character beside the Sam had the high rated comlink or sniping skills?

Being a dumpshocker and a fellow 1st Eder, I assume you base your view on horrible fates met out to the example chars you've seen. So I do hear you. But Zafira will do fine. The rest of her group consist of a Shapechanging Gunner, a Jedi wannabe Adept, a stock Eco Shaman and a homeless Mage. There are holes here you can drive a bus through, but the generalist isn't one of them.
BishopMcQ
Generalists can and do survive. Period.

Yes, they have to think. Yes, occasionally they talk instead of fighting, run instead of dealing. There's nothing wrong with that. Each of us has our personal bias on how we would change the character, but honestly I'd say to let it play. Most of the changes that any of us DS'ers would recommend could be accomplished after the first few runs.

JonathanC--Play it smart and you'll make it through. The build you have is similar to one that I have been playing for awhile. You'll always be stronger with a team, but able to survive on your own. Remember to always have a back-up plan and when it matters, throw Edge. Best of luck!
sunnyside
On the social skills. While others may have higher skills, likely the GM has been letting them skate instead of turning the screws. But if not, or if players just avoid that sort of thing, than her and her dice pool will go over well.

As for the generalist I think most every character on a team should be somewhat generalist it's just a matter of how much. Everybody should be passable in combat and I strongly strongly suggest all my players have decent infiltration skills in case the team needs to move out stealthily as a group.

Once play starts if she can get some rating 4 agility boosters that'll put her pools for shooting and infiltration up to a solid level.

Though if I would boost something "out of the box" other than edge I'd suggest social skills.

Though as I said before using some negative qualities to buy edge up to 5 would give you a couple extra edge boosted rolls. For example with the Johnson.

Since the GMs in the thread, go on, think of some fun negative qualities. It'll be fun, and her char isn't going to be broken with a little boost. Plus it isn't like she couldn't be allergic to camel hair or some other cheesy stuff to get the points.

JonathanC
Well, I ran the math again to make sure everything added up. It turns out I kinda shorted myself, since I had Pilot Ground Craft (Wheeled) and Electronic Warfare costing 14 points each, instead of 10 and 12 points, respectively. My total adds up to 381 points...unless I'm missing something...
Cain
QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Aug 31 2008, 10:18 PM) *
Generalists can and do survive. Period.

Yes, they have to think. Yes, occasionally they talk instead of fighting, run instead of dealing. There's nothing wrong with that. Each of us has our personal bias on how we would change the character, but honestly I'd say to let it play. Most of the changes that any of us DS'ers would recommend could be accomplished after the first few runs.

They can survive; but survival is often up to the GM. We've all heard the stories of "killer GM's", who delight in throwing disgustingly overpowered opposition at a party. In that environment, min/maxing is a survival trait.

At any event, even if the character survives, her ability to thrive is a different matter. She doesn't have any standout abilities, so if she ever has to go up against a specialist, she will be hard-pressed. This includes social situations as well as combat. For example, if she ever has to negotiate against a talented Johnson, her dice pool of 9 isn't going to be enough to reliably get extra information or money out of him. In fact, a maxed-out Johnson might even cause the team to lose money, as he reduces his offer.

Right now, she's not going to be an effective Face. She needs a higher social dice pool for that. And she may be decent as an infiltrator, but she's not going to have much margin for error.
JonathanC
I pushed some points around, mostly making use of the ones I'd apparently cheated myself out of:

Zafira 400 points

Body 3
Agility 5
Reaction 3
Strength 3
Charisma 5
Logic 3
Intuition 3
Willpower 3
200
Essence 3.10
Edge 3

Negative Qualities
Enemy (connection 3/incidence 2) Ali Ben Saiyyid 5 points
Wanted 10 points

Contacts 10 points
Jorge Santiago, Dock foreman Connection 2 Loyalty 2
Jamal Tamir (Talent Agent) Connection 4 Loyalty 2


SKILLS
Stealth SKill Group 4 (40)
Disguise
Infiltration
Palming
Shadowing
Athletics SKill Group 1 (10)
Climbing
Gymnastics
Running
Swimming
Influence Skill Group 4 (40)
Con
Etiquette
Leadership
Negotiation
Pistols (semi-automatics) 4/6 (18 points)
Exotic Melee Weapon - Monofilament Whip 4 (16 points)
Pilot Ground Craft (wheeled) 2 (4) [10]
Hardware (Maglocks) 5/7 [22]
Locksmith 4 [16]
Perception (hearing) 2/4 (10 points)
Electronic Warfare 3 [12 points]

Obvious Cyberhand (agility 5) 14250 total
Hermes Ikon Commlink implanted
Datajack
Fingertip Compartment

Obvious Cyberhand 5000 nuyen capacity 4
(customized agility 5 +3000 nuyen, modular cyberlimb [multiply by 1.1 for final cost]) Final cost 8,800 nuyen
Scanner System Rating 4 2000 nuyen, Holdout Pistol 800 nuyen
Plugins:
Welding Laser 3000 nuyen
Drone Hand 3500 nuyen

Wired Reflexes 2

Varshon Island Steampunk Line 2000 nuyen total
Overcoat 3/3 1000 nuyen
Corset 2/2 600 nuyen
Slacks 1/1 400 nuyen

Contact Lenses 375n
Vision Enhancement 3
Image Link

Goggles 1550n
Smartlink
Ultrasound

Lockpick Set 300

Grapple Gun 500

Microwire (100m) 50

Rappeling Gloves 70

Monofilament Whip 3000

Ares Predator 350
50 rounds of regular ammo 100
50 rounds of gel rounds 150
5 spare clips 25
Quick-Draw Holster 100

Actioneer Business Clothes 1,500

Novatech Navi OS 1500
Firewall 6 Upgrade 3000
Command 400
Scan 400
Encrypt 400
Sniffer 4 4000

Fake SIN Rating 4 4000
Fake SIN Rating 4 or Basic DocWagon Service 1 year
Fake Driver's License 400
Fake Gun License 400
Hardware Kit 500

Earbuds 10
Audio Enhancement 3 300
Spatial Recognizer 100

170 nuyen worth of illicit drugs (she frequently supplies Jamal's clients)
(19 points = 95,000) 95,000


Middle Lifestyle 5k 1BP
sunnyside
Actually something else that's relevant.

Well, I'm not sure how to ask this. Probably no good way if your fellow players read the board. But are you smarter, more charismatic, or a better leader than the rest of the crew? Uh, maybe don't answer that, just think about it.

The reason being that a character that isn't min maxed or a specialist isn't for a wallflower.


But it can work great for a leader. This is because you can have a solid contribution at each stage of a run. Footwork, infiltrating for the actual job, and combat when it comes to it. However not having specialties ensures the others will get their chance to shine, and won't resent you.



Ryu
Some quick points:
- You need a Stealth Program, or hidden mode isn´t
- I´d take the Electronics group instead of Hardware, and buy Edit and Browse, too.
BishopMcQ
QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 31 2008, 11:56 PM) *
They can survive; but survival is often up to the GM. We've all heard the stories of "killer GM's", who delight in throwing disgustingly overpowered opposition at a party. In that environment, min/maxing is a survival trait.

Without derailing the thread too much, I think this line sums up your largest problem with SR4. Here and in the compromise thread, you have recently commented on how one character could never survive or another will take all the fun out of the game. I really think the problem is the GM style you are used to playing with. Yes there are "killer GMs" but most aren't out to kill characters. Some of them create difficult situations, and even I am known to occasionally create a situation where the characters cannot win in a straight fight. The trick is to recognize when fighting is not an option. (If the GM mentions heavy weapons and security armor, you may want to find a plan that doesn't involve shooting.)

Either way, the "survival trait" has clouded your perceptions of how everyone else plays the game. Take a look at half the threads in the Welcome to the Shadows section, or read through the Missions. (Don't play them, READ them.) You will see that the threats are commensurate to normal characters with dice pools in the 7-12 range. That means that a character who rolls in with 18 dice will win almost every time, but there are situations where winning isn't the answer. If you've never been in one of those situations in a game, I feel pity for you.

QUOTE
At any event, even if the character survives, her ability to thrive is a different matter. She doesn't have any standout abilities, so if she ever has to go up against a specialist, she will be hard-pressed. This includes social situations as well as combat. For example, if she ever has to negotiate against a talented Johnson, her dice pool of 9 isn't going to be enough to reliably get extra information or money out of him. In fact, a maxed-out Johnson might even cause the team to lose money, as he reduces his offer.
Here you are letting that preconceived notion cloud your thinking. By playing the generalist well, and using the strengths of the entire team, you never show up with just Skill+Attrib. There are always modifiers to the test. The Face can coordinate with the hacker to get some information, have the Sam posture enough to show that they mean business without brooking violence. If the mage has it, how about some Increase Charisma? The point behind the generalist is synergy--their combined strength is greater than the sum of the parts.

QUOTE
Right now, she's not going to be an effective Face. She needs a higher social dice pool for that. And she may be decent as an infiltrator, but she's not going to have much margin for error.
Perhaps not effective against mega-corporate negotiators whom she hasn't prepped for, but as a starting runner she doesn't have to be. She can go through the first few jobs, earning the money and building rapport. The opportunity cost of not squeezing the Johnson for everything he's worth on the first few jobs can pay off in aces when the face earns him as a contact and her street rep goes up as a fair and honest runner.

Cain
QUOTE (BishopMcQ @ Sep 1 2008, 12:40 AM) *
Without derailing the thread too much, I think this line sums up your largest problem with SR4. Here and in the compromise thread, you have recently commented on how one character could never survive or another will take all the fun out of the game. I really think the problem is the GM style you are used to playing with. Yes there are "killer GMs" but most aren't out to kill characters. Some of them create difficult situations, and even I am known to occasionally create a situation where the characters cannot win in a straight fight. The trick is to recognize when fighting is not an option. (If the GM mentions heavy weapons and security armor, you may want to find a plan that doesn't involve shooting.)

Either way, the "survival trait" has clouded your perceptions of how everyone else plays the game. Take a look at half the threads in the Welcome to the Shadows section, or read through the Missions. (Don't play them, READ them.) You will see that the threats are commensurate to normal characters with dice pools in the 7-12 range. That means that a character who rolls in with 18 dice will win almost every time, but there are situations where winning isn't the answer. If you've never been in one of those situations in a game, I feel pity for you.


Character imbalance is a real issue. When you have two characters occupying the same niche, it's very hard to ensure quality spotlight time for both of them; adding in a mathematical imbalance makes things even worse.

However, I have played, read, and ran a number of Missions games. I've also played under a number of different GMs. You do need a minimum dice pool in a given area before you can be considered "good" at it. If you expect to compete with the NPC's, you need a dice pool to match what they have; and if it's your specialty, you should exceed that. Now, you might think the range should be 7-10, and i think it should be 12+. That *is* a matter to be decided on in individual games. However, assuming that JonC is playing a by-the-book game, his dice pools should be at least a match for the examples in the book.

This is really an issue for the GM mantra thread, where I've already gone over some of these topics in detail. I'll refer you there for further discussion. But for now, let's just say that the larger your dice pool is, the more effective you will be. I will also say that in every single game I've ever played in, having a character with no central focus was no fun. Being mediocre in a lot of areas means not only do you never get to show off your strengths, you can't roleplay out your weaknesses as well. Good characters will have high and low points, which add dimension to the character.

QUOTE
Here you are letting that preconceived notion cloud your thinking. By playing the generalist well, and using the strengths of the entire team, you never show up with just Skill+Attrib. There are always modifiers to the test. The Face can coordinate with the hacker to get some information, have the Sam posture enough to show that they mean business without brooking violence. If the mage has it, how about some Increase Charisma? The point behind the generalist is synergy--their combined strength is greater than the sum of the parts.

Perhaps not effective against mega-corporate negotiators whom she hasn't prepped for, but as a starting runner she doesn't have to be. She can go through the first few jobs, earning the money and building rapport. The opportunity cost of not squeezing the Johnson for everything he's worth on the first few jobs can pay off in aces when the face earns him as a contact and her street rep goes up as a fair and honest runner.

Modifiers can work both ways. Using just the Johnson in the BBB, and adding no modifiers whatsoever, she still comes up short in the dice pool comparison. And that's in her high strength, of Bargaining. If she's negotiating for anything else, her dice pool is going to be even smaller.

My last character had a social pool of 6 for most situations. That was enough to occasionally talk her way out of a corner, but not enough to really accomplish much else, like bargaining down the price on a new piece of gear. This character has a normal social dice pool of 7. That's simply not enough to pull off a lot of the Face's roles. Since my last character was a mage, why should she bother casting Increase Charisma on someone else? She could do it on herself, and do just as good.

What reason would a team have for this character? If they've got someone with an average social pool of 6, they're going to be doing almost as well as this character. If they also have a ninja-type with a better Infiltration dice pool, exactly what does she have to offer?
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 1 2008, 05:45 AM) *
Given an average target (Intuition 3 and Perception 3, no other modifiers)

The normale CorpSec Grunt has no perception at all, though a LoneStar Grunt has Intuition 4 and Perception 2.
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 1 2008, 08:56 AM) *
They can survive; but survival is often up to the GM. We've all heard the stories of "killer GM's", who delight in throwing disgustingly overpowered opposition at a party. In that environment, min/maxing is a survival trait.

Then don't play with "killer GM's".
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 1 2008, 08:56 AM) *
For example, if she ever has to negotiate against a talented Johnson, her dice pool of 9 isn't going to be enough to reliably get extra information or money out of him.

Given the Social Skill Modifiers (which drastically reduce the 'attackers' dice pool, but not the 'defenders'), no dice pool short of a Pornomancer is.
The important thing is Availability and Negotiation/Con Resistance, which 9 dice do quite well.

So while she won't be able to get much more out of a J than offered, he won't talk her into doing the job for less, either.
masterofm
Donde esta intimidation? Might want to get intimidation if you are going to be the face.
JonathanC
QUOTE (Ryu @ Sep 1 2008, 01:32 AM) *
Some quick points:
- You need a Stealth Program, or hidden mode isn´t
- I´d take the Electronics group instead of Hardware, and buy Edit and Browse, too.

I've no intent of doing any hacking. I actually think that the Electronic Warfare might be a bit of a waste...I really only bought those things for use with the drone hand. I'm not going to get an effective rigger/shooter/face on 400BP.

Regarding the questions about Mr. Johnson negotiations...I don't know about your games, but I think of Johnson negotiation as being a rather small part of what a Face really does. I figure most social encounters with someone who has a larger dice pool will be occasions for using an Edge point.

To answer the question about the other players...I'm the most experienced with Shadowrun, so I suppose it'll be useful if I'm active. I usually tend to play investigator types in games, so this will be interesting as I'm trying something different.

As for intimidation...I might have picked a little up if I had the extra points, but I don't see it fitting the background. I also usually figure on giving that to gunbunnies and street sams.

I think Sam/Face is much easier to do than Infiltrator/Face, since there are so many more skills required for Infiltrators. Were I going for a more min/maxed approach, I probably would have coughed up 30BP for an elf, and bought a Sequencer and a card copier instead of bothering with the Hardware skill.

What I like about this build is that most of what she has is built into her. MAD detectors aside, she can walk into most places "unarmed" and still feel about as safe as she would anywhere, which is what I expect from a socially-adept former burglar.
Cain
QUOTE
Given the Social Skill Modifiers (which drastically reduce the 'attackers' dice pool, but not the 'defenders'), no dice pool short of a Pornomancer is.
The important thing is Availability and Negotiation/Con Resistance, which 9 dice do quite well.

So while she won't be able to get much more out of a J than offered, he won't talk her into doing the job for less, either.

9 dice is enough for a non-face character; you can get by with that.

But if you're really going to be using those social skills, 9 dice isn't enough to accomplish much. It's slightly less than an average Johnson, so you're going to almost be a match; but against higher-powered negotiators, it's just not enough. And this assumes that the Johnson doesn't have any gear that increases his dice pool.

Remember, that 9 dice is for bargaining only. To resist a Con, she has two less dice. We're talking 7 dice for most social tests, which averages out to 2.33 successes. That's really not much at all.

QUOTE
I've no intent of doing any hacking. I actually think that the Electronic Warfare might be a bit of a waste...I really only bought those things for use with the drone hand. I'm not going to get an effective rigger/shooter/face on 400BP.

Even so, if you want your commlink to remain in hidden mode, apparently the Stealth program helps. Even as a non-decker, certain programs are going to be very useful to you. Electronic Warfare might be a bit of a waste, though.
QUOTE
Regarding the questions about Mr. Johnson negotiations...I don't know about your games, but I think of Johnson negotiation as being a rather small part of what a Face really does. I figure most social encounters with someone who has a larger dice pool will be occasions for using an Edge point.

If that's the case, you really should put your specialization somewhere other than Bargaining. I'd also consider a Fast Talk specialization in Con, and boost your dice pool with Tailored Pheromones, emotoys, and things like that.

If you're going to be relying on Edge to boost your dice pool, you may want to consider raising that as well. Right now, you can only use it 3 times per game. Considering how often a social test against a dice pool higher than 7 is likely to come up, you might end up running yourself out of Edge very quickly. Besides which, it's generally a bad idea to rely on Edge for regular dice rolls; it should be saved for more extreme situations.

QUOTE
What I like about this build is that most of what she has is built into her. MAD detectors aside, she can walk into most places "unarmed" and still feel about as safe as she would anywhere, which is what I expect from a socially-adept former burglar.

You're character's already set up for this trick, so I don't know if you've planned it out or not-- but have you considered hiding your monowhip in your fingertip compartment? You can get past chemsniffers and MAD detectors that way.
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 1 2008, 11:50 PM) *
But if you're really going to be using those social skills, 9 dice isn't enough to accomplish much. It's slightly less than an average Johnson, so you're going to almost be a match; but against higher-powered negotiators, it's just not enough. And this assumes that the Johnson doesn't have any gear that increases his dice pool.

Actually, an Average Johnson has a Negotiation Skill of 3 per Skill Rating table. The Johnson Contact already is 'higher-powered'.
JonathanC
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 1 2008, 01:50 PM) *
9 dice is enough for a non-face character; you can get by with that.

But if you're really going to be using those social skills, 9 dice isn't enough to accomplish much. It's slightly less than an average Johnson, so you're going to almost be a match; but against higher-powered negotiators, it's just not enough. And this assumes that the Johnson doesn't have any gear that increases his dice pool.

Remember, that 9 dice is for bargaining only. To resist a Con, she has two less dice. We're talking 7 dice for most social tests, which averages out to 2.33 successes. That's really not much at all.


Even so, if you want your commlink to remain in hidden mode, apparently the Stealth program helps. Even as a non-decker, certain programs are going to be very useful to you. Electronic Warfare might be a bit of a waste, though.

If that's the case, you really should put your specialization somewhere other than Bargaining. I'd also consider a Fast Talk specialization in Con, and boost your dice pool with Tailored Pheromones, emotoys, and things like that.

If you're going to be relying on Edge to boost your dice pool, you may want to consider raising that as well. Right now, you can only use it 3 times per game. Considering how often a social test against a dice pool higher than 7 is likely to come up, you might end up running yourself out of Edge very quickly. Besides which, it's generally a bad idea to rely on Edge for regular dice rolls; it should be saved for more extreme situations.


You're character's already set up for this trick, so I don't know if you've planned it out or not-- but have you considered hiding your monowhip in your fingertip compartment? You can get past chemsniffers and MAD detectors that way.

Yes, I had planned for the monowhip finger thing...it's the only reason I got a fingertip compartment. The idea is that she can walk into nightclubs, nice restaurants, etc and still be somewhat prepared if things go south.

Also, if you look at the revised sheet, I removed the specialization...there's an overall improvement of the social dice. I suppose I could go for a stealth program instead of the extra SIN, but that seems like a lot of cash to basically just avoid spam ads, or the vague possibility of someone trying to hack my drone crawler hand. It's not like that's the hand I'll usually be wearing.
Cain
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Sep 1 2008, 03:46 PM) *
Yes, I had planned for the monowhip finger thing...it's the only reason I got a fingertip compartment. The idea is that she can walk into nightclubs, nice restaurants, etc and still be somewhat prepared if things go south.

Also, if you look at the revised sheet, I removed the specialization...there's an overall improvement of the social dice. I suppose I could go for a stealth program instead of the extra SIN, but that seems like a lot of cash to basically just avoid spam ads, or the vague possibility of someone trying to hack my drone crawler hand. It's not like that's the hand I'll usually be wearing.

Again, I'm not going to dissect the character, I'm just going to give a quick overview.

It looks like your social dice pools are now at 9, which is decent for a secondary skill, but not as a primary focus for the character. You can easily increase this by adding in emotoys and other tricks to inflate your social pools. If your GM allows you to break skill groups at chargen, I'd pick up a few specializations.

I don't see any camo clothing, which would really help your Infiltration ability. You may want to consider Enhanced Articulation as well.

The Stealth program is optional, but you might consider picking up a higher Pilot for the drone hand.

And if you're going to use a monowhip as a primary weapon, you definitely want an increase in Edge. A botch or critical botch with it will really ruin your day.
JonathanC
All good points, but I had pretty good reasons for not doing them. I appreciate the feedback though. At the end of the day, I wanted to be able to break locks without relying on specialized equipment (just standard hardware tools and lockpicks), and that's a more expensive option, period. As a result, I'm sitting on a hardware skill that wouldn't need to be there otherwise, so I just don't have the points to really bump those pools higher. Also, I've always hated the ridiculous bonus that emotoys give for the price. And walking around with a toy dog wherever you go seems mildly undignified.

The camo clothing will be something I pick up in-game after I get some more cash. Even urban camo isn't likely to hide you that well if you're sneaking through a building, since that's not the right environment (urban camo is for city outdoors, yes?). I'd rather run a job or two and pick up a chameleon suit when the opportunity comes up. I totally agree about the drone hand, but that was more of an early investment in a trick that isn't going to mature for a couple of games. I *am* a bit regretful about not getting that Edge up to at least 4. Not sure how I can juggle the numbers to get that accomplished though.

I'm working with a GM who's likely to make good use of any negative qualities, so I don't choose them lightly.
Cain
Emotoys aren't the only solution. Someone mentioned that there was software that could help, but I don't recall where it's listed. If you can find a way to afford them, Tailored pheromones is a huge advantage. I don't have RC, but apparently there's a few extra tricks in there as well.
Glyph
Empathy software (you definitely want it as dedicated sensor software rather than walking around with a toy) is the cheapest option, although a lot of GMs don't like/use it, since many feel it is needless dice pool inflation, and, like me, agree with you that it is too big of a bonus. I don't like it myself. My reaction is less "Yay! More dice for my social skills!" and more like "Damn it, now I have to get this, because everyone else is going to have it."

Other than tailored pheromones, there are also enhanced pheromone receptors, which are much cheaper but have some drawbacks, and the vocal range enhancer, which can give +1 to social skills (at the GM's discretion) as well as offering other advantages. The vocal range enhancer is the most fun, and is useful for infiltration, too (beating voice recognition).

Keep in mind that the Johnson presented in the book is a professional Johnson, and not everyone looking to hire a criminal to do dirty work will be a professional negotiator. There will be suits looking to sabotage rivals, parents looking to locate their runaway children, underworld types who need a bit of extra muscle or deniability, and so on.
Angier
QUOTE (Cain @ Sep 1 2008, 06:06 AM) *
Sorry to disagree here, but being a generalist in Shadowrun is never a good idea.

Shadowrun has always been about teams of specialists, working together. People with special expertise form a team, each person handling a certain role. If you're a generalist, you really have nothing to offer to a team; for the same cut of the nuyen, they could get someone better than you for the role.

[...]



A generalist ain't contrary to that ideal. Shadowrun isn't framed on the different archetypes to complete each other in the team any more. Rather it is based on a similar concept to D&D4 now (just look at the team roles in RC!) with "Slots" of expertise to be filled. A Generalist might not be the best choice for those slots, true, but he will be able to support any filled slot or compensate gaps in the team. That by itself makes the generalist alone very versatile. And after being integrated in a team karma will add to needed advantages which will give the generalist a headstart in compensation as there is a high chance he already was more or less competent in that area.
masterofm
The whole to be or not to be a generalist is all up to what the GM cares to do. If the GM wants high end characters then fine if not then fine. Also what kind of missions the GM runs makes a difference. If you are taking gangers then a generalist is fine. If you are taking on an elite zero point facilities then someone with a dice pool of 16-24 is probably not a bad idea.
Cain
QUOTE (Angier @ Sep 2 2008, 01:17 AM) *
A generalist ain't contrary to that ideal. Shadowrun isn't framed on the different archetypes to complete each other in the team any more. Rather it is based on a similar concept to D&D4 now (just look at the team roles in RC!) with "Slots" of expertise to be filled. A Generalist might not be the best choice for those slots, true, but he will be able to support any filled slot or compensate gaps in the team. That by itself makes the generalist alone very versatile. And after being integrated in a team karma will add to needed advantages which will give the generalist a headstart in compensation as there is a high chance he already was more or less competent in that area.

It depends on the other characters, and what they've got for those roles. If the team has absolulely nothing, then yes, anything is better than nothing.

However, what I usually see posted is a generalist who has dice pools of 6-8 in a bunch of different areas. If the next closest dice pool is also a 6, then the generalist really doesn't hold much of an advantage. There's no in-game reason to hire this person; you can make the other person fill the role, without splitting the profits even further.

As far as karma goes: without a focus, you're not going to see the character improve quickly. If they spread their karma around equally, it'll take a while for you to see changes.
reepneep
QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 31 2008, 11:06 PM) *
Sorry to disagree here, but being a generalist in Shadowrun is never a good idea.

Shadowrun has always been about teams of specialists, working together. People with special expertise form a team, each person handling a certain role. If you're a generalist, you really have nothing to offer to a team; for the same cut of the nuyen, they could get someone better than you for the role.

Having a generalized skill set never hurts; but unless you've got something to offer a team, you're not going to be useful. You have to have a focus. And whatever that focus is, it's got to have a dice pool big enough to back it up. If everyone else has a good variety of skills, they might be able to do everything almost as well as you can. Most generalist build I've seen only have a 1-2 dice pool advantage over a more specialized character, not enough to make a huge difference.

That totally depends on the group you're running with. On a small team of three or four guys, a generalist is a huge asset as you don't have enough people to cover all the angles. The same is true if your group simply is large but not diverse. Games I've been in have been heavy on the gunbunnies and mages. Having one guy who can cover technical, transport, medical, social and whatever else the fools who won't take skills outside their archetypes can't is always a good idea.

You certainly do not absolutely have to focus. As long as you can throw 8-10 dice in multiple areas you can make yourself useful on any but the most powergaming teams.
Cain
QUOTE (reepneep @ Sep 3 2008, 01:44 AM) *
That totally depends on the group you're running with. On a small team of three or four guys, a generalist is a huge asset as you don't have enough people to cover all the angles. The same is true if your group simply is large but not diverse. Games I've been in have been heavy on the gunbunnies and mages. Having one guy who can cover technical, transport, medical, social and whatever else the fools who won't take skills outside their archetypes can't is always a good idea.

You certainly do not absolutely have to focus. As long as you can throw 8-10 dice in multiple areas you can make yourself useful on any but the most powergaming teams.

Even in a non-diverse group, it's not uncommon to see characters who can throw 6-8 dice in areas outside their specialty. Many characters have secondary and tertiary skill sets. They're no match for a specialist, but they can get by. If you only have a two die advantage over someone else, they don't need you-- they can either muddle through, and keep a higher share for themselves; or hire someone who is significantly better. It's fairly rare to see a character who is totally helpless outside of his specialty; a god character will always have the ability to deal with other tasks.

And some of your areas are easier to get around than others. If you have no Matrix skills, an agent can fill in the gap. If you have a vehicle, but no skill, a Pilot program can make up for that. For medical, you can always buy a medkit. These all give you low-end abilities in these areas. Sure, a character can do much better than that; but unless they can do significantly better, there's no need to hire another person. You can muddle through.

And every character needs a focus. A character needs defining traits to be interesting. Without high and low points, it's hard to make a character stand out and be unique.
Jhaiisiin
Cain, what you're missing is that not every character *needs* to have high and low points to be interesting. It's fairly obvious that a generalist would be boring as hell to you, but that's not everyone's opinion. Personally, I've seen games with specialists who didn't take anything outside their chosen expertise (like a sword adept who didn't even have a basic pistols skill, or med skills, or electronics or anything), or a mage who was so focused on magic you couldn't rely on them for anything mundane. It happens. And in those cases, you need something to fill the gaps. Generalists do that, and sometimes that's what's needed.

Besides, there's an in-game reason to hire a generalist over a specialist. Generalists come cheaper because they're not as good at one thing as a specialist.
Cain
Sorry, but characters *do* need high and low points to be interesting. It gives them standout qualities, and helps get a handle on the personality for roleplay.

Sure, in theory, a skilled player can take any character, and make it interesting. In practice, though, both characters and people tend to not be generalized. Each person has their high and low points. Characters should be even more varied-- we don't play RPG's to be Joe Average. We play heroes and villains, characters who lead lives that are more exciting than our everyday existence. This gets into RPG theory, and it can get complicated in parts; but the basic gist of it is that when you play a RPG, you want to experience something outside your normal life.
Jhaiisiin
A character's personality and mannerisms have little to do with their skills.

RL: I'm a person with OCD who is shy in person, aggressive with internet anonymity (and I'm really trying to work on that), and caring to a fault with friends and family. That's who I am. What I can do is totally and completely separate and has little bearing on my personality.

And as an aside, "we" play RPG's for different reasons. I, for example, play RPG's to be someone I'm not. That someone can still be average as long as he isn't me. I use roleplaying as a release from reality, an escape and a stress relieving activity. I don't need to be Mr. SuperBadAss the AwesomeSauce just to have fun. There is a player in my group who *is* like that, and it gets old fast.
Ryu
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Sep 2 2008, 01:19 AM) *
All good points, but I had pretty good reasons for not doing them. I appreciate the feedback though. At the end of the day, I wanted to be able to break locks without relying on specialized equipment (just standard hardware tools and lockpicks), and that's a more expensive option, period. As a result, I'm sitting on a hardware skill that wouldn't need to be there otherwise, so I just don't have the points to really bump those pools higher. Also, I've always hated the ridiculous bonus that emotoys give for the price. And walking around with a toy dog wherever you go seems mildly undignified.

The camo clothing will be something I pick up in-game after I get some more cash. Even urban camo isn't likely to hide you that well if you're sneaking through a building, since that's not the right environment (urban camo is for city outdoors, yes?). I'd rather run a job or two and pick up a chameleon suit when the opportunity comes up. I totally agree about the drone hand, but that was more of an early investment in a trick that isn't going to mature for a couple of games. I *am* a bit regretful about not getting that Edge up to at least 4. Not sure how I can juggle the numbers to get that accomplished though.

I'm working with a GM who's likely to make good use of any negative qualities, so I don't choose them lightly.


Lower agility to 3, take edge 4, increase ressources by 50k¥.

Buy muscle toner 2, the chameleon suit, and some other toys.
Cain
QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Sep 4 2008, 12:59 AM) *
A character's personality and mannerisms have little to do with their skills.

RL: I'm a person with OCD who is shy in person, aggressive with internet anonymity (and I'm really trying to work on that), and caring to a fault with friends and family. That's who I am. What I can do is totally and completely separate and has little bearing on my personality.

And as an aside, "we" play RPG's for different reasons. I, for example, play RPG's to be someone I'm not. That someone can still be average as long as he isn't me. I use roleplaying as a release from reality, an escape and a stress relieving activity. I don't need to be Mr. SuperBadAss the AwesomeSauce just to have fun. There is a player in my group who *is* like that, and it gets old fast.

In RL, people do tend to define themselves by what they do. It could be a job, parenting, coaching a softball team, or even their hobbies (I bet you say: "I'm a gamer" rather than "I'm a guy who plays role-playing games."

I'll also wager that you've never played a "completely average" character before. I'll bet that all your characters were better at some things than others. For example, have you ever created a Shadowrun character who had 3 in all his attributes and skills? I really doubt that you'd be happy with such a character. Also, it wouldn't be fun to play, and hard to GM for, because it'd be hard to arrange "spotlight time" for such a character.
sunnyside
QUOTE (JonathanC @ Sep 1 2008, 06:19 PM) *
I'm working with a GM who's likely to make good use of any negative qualities, so I don't choose them lightly.


Don't choose them lightly. But do choose them. As a "generalist" you need that edge. Especially for one that may rove out ahead of the group. I'd really encourage edge 5 so you can do the dice add and reroll option if you're in a situation where modifiers destroy your dice pool but you need some successes.

Oh and on tightening your build I'd say ditch electronic warefare and pilot ground craft (just let pilot do it).

But on the generalist thing. This char is in part meant to be an infiltrator.

That means they have to have a range of skills availible. They need to be able to sneak, con, get through locks and physically around stuff.

I think in addition to the stuff I suggested earlier points from EW and ground craft should go into phermones or what have you or the Athletics group. Especially gymnastics. First because being out in front you may want to have a good effect if you need to go full defense. But also since you can use that to ditch persuers and to get places you'd otherwise have a hard time getting to.

Jhaiisiin
You have your opinion on this Cain, and I have mine. What I'm saying is that in my experience that I've played and ran generalist and average characters (in this and other game systems) and enjoyed it. You've never seen it happen? Fine. But stop telling me and others what is and is not fun.

And for the record, when someone asks who I am, I tell them. When they ask what I do for fun, *then* I say I'm a gamer.
JonathanC
First session went down. I did raise my edge to 4, by lowering my strength to 2. I still don't have a chameleon suit. I did fine. Short session though, so we'll have to see how she does in combat.
Cain
QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Sep 4 2008, 06:52 PM) *
You have your opinion on this Cain, and I have mine. What I'm saying is that in my experience that I've played and ran generalist and average characters (in this and other game systems) and enjoyed it. You've never seen it happen? Fine. But stop telling me and others what is and is not fun.

And for the record, when someone asks who I am, I tell them. When they ask what I do for fun, *then* I say I'm a gamer.

Again: Have you ever played a SR4 character with 3's in all attributes, and 3's in all their skills? That's your "average character". I'll bet you haven't.

I'll wager that even when you play a generalist or average character, they're better at some things than others.
Jhaiisiin
No, I haven't played a straight-average character. I usually make them a little better in one thing or another. I think the closest to middle ground I ever plaid had no attribute above 4, no skill above 4 and I was content with the character for quite some time until we stopped playing the game.

And by virtue of either having or not having skills, EVERY character concept is going to be better at one thing over another. For instance, if I don't take Pilot Ground Craft, then I'm better at my unarmed combat than I am at driving. Within the context of the character's capabilities though, the character is fairly balanced and/or average as a rule in my world. I very rarely go for hyperspecializations of characters.
Cain
QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Sep 5 2008, 11:44 AM) *
No, I haven't played a straight-average character. I usually make them a little better in one thing or another. I think the closest to middle ground I ever plaid had no attribute above 4, no skill above 4 and I was content with the character for quite some time until we stopped playing the game.

And by virtue of either having or not having skills, EVERY character concept is going to be better at one thing over another. For instance, if I don't take Pilot Ground Craft, then I'm better at my unarmed combat than I am at driving. Within the context of the character's capabilities though, the character is fairly balanced and/or average as a rule in my world. I very rarely go for hyperspecializations of characters.

Because of the fact that you can't spend more than 200 points on attributes with a 400 point character, it's impossible to have 4's across the board. I'll wager, however, that you spent karma to raise certain skills and attributes and not others. I'll bet that you didn't even try to balance your dice pools; you probably focused on raising just one or two attributes and skills. In short, you deliberately gave your characters high and low points, to make them more interesting to play.

As far as not having skills go: if you take all 3's in your attributes, that leaves an awful lot of points for skills. I don't know if you can get *every* skill at 3, but I bet you could get a lot of them.

Characters don't need to be hyperspecialized to have high and low points. They just need a focus. Someone who's focus is "mediocre at everything" won't be much fun to play. On the other hand, someone who's focus is "The best damn ork decker you never met" is going to be a lot more interesting.
Jhaiisiin
Cain, stop trying to tell me what I did or didn't do. You're not me.

I raise stuff to improve their capability in an area, not to make them more interesting. How is this hard to understand?
reepneep
Yeah, why split the pay more than one way when you can play a mage with delta Skillwires and do it all yourself. sarcastic.gif
CanRay
What about a Mage with Deltaware Move-By-Wire?

Only almost 2 Million nuyen.gif . nyahnyah.gif
JonathanC
Necro-ing this thread out of nostalgia, and to give an update. This game ended a long, long time ago, but it was a lot of fun and one of the few times I've ever gotten to *play* Shadowrun, rather than run it.

Zafira ended up retiring early, but survived. The group was a bit more gun-heavy and didn't seem to need/want negotiation as much. When opportunity presented itself she did quite well in combat; she managed to sneak up on a sniper that was targeting the group and instantly behead him with the monowhip.
CanRay
Monowhips, when you absolutely, positively want to give someone the world's worst papercut!
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