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betterwatchit
What would you do if one of your players turned up with a character with Biocompatibility (Bioware) and Type O System (Both from Augmentation), and a load of generic bioware? That could seriously cut down the Essence costs of basic bioware.
crizh
Uh, 60%?
FlashbackJon
I'd hit him in the nuts cuz that's 40 BP in qualities. nyahnyah.gif
crizh
QUOTE (FlashbackJon @ Sep 2 2008, 09:53 PM) *
I'd hit him in the nuts cuz that's 40 BP in qualities. nyahnyah.gif


D'oh!
paws2sky
Wouldn't allow it. That's 40BP worth of positive qualities and RAW only allows for 35BP of positive qualities at character creation.

-paws
PS if for some reason the usual 35BP cap was raised to 40 or more, making this combination was possible, the effects would be added together for a 60% essence cost reduction.
betterwatchit
Sorry, I was just number-crunching from memory.
FlashbackJon
I'm willing to bet part of their being priced thusly was to prevent that specific combination from occurring.
Skip
I agree, and if pushed on it, I'd say they are two sides of the same coin and you don't add them, just get the maximum benefit offered by either benefit.
Stahlseele
voted for 50% because 60% ain't there and 70% seemed too much for me O.o
KCKitsune
if you allow your players to twink their characters then it is possible:

SURGE Class I = 5 BP (allowing 10 BP worth of metagenic characteristics == Biocompatability)
Type O Body = 30 BP

This would allow that combination.
Rotbart van Dainig
60% reduction or a 0.4 multiplier.
Ryu
Evil GM wants to know: The above selections are punishments for the character of the player in question, yes? Selecting one unfortunately seems to invalidate "would not allow it".
Malicant
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Sep 2 2008, 11:26 PM) *
if you allow your players to twink their characters then it is possible:

SURGE Class I = 5 BP (allowing 10 BP worth of metagenic characteristics == Biocompatability)
Type O Body = 30 BP

This would allow that combination.

Trying that in my game would be asking for a kick in the balls. Biocompatability as a result of SURGE? Come on, that's so uberlame, even for powergaming purposes.
So yeah, wouldn't allow that combo. 40BP, would not allow to acquire in game with Karma because dump and so on.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Malicant @ Sep 2 2008, 05:45 PM) *
Trying that in my game would be asking for a kick in the balls. Biocompatability as a result of SURGE? Come on, that's so uberlame, even for powergaming purposes.
So yeah, wouldn't allow that combo. 40BP, would not allow to acquire in game with Karma because dump and so on.

QUOTE (Runners Companion p.110)
In addition to the metagenetic qualities introduced below,
the following qualities available in Shadowrun, Fourth Edition
qualify as Metagenetic qualities (see Qualities, p. 77, SR4; New
Awakened Qualities, pp. 24€“28, Street Magic; and Augmented
Qualities, pp. 20€“22, Augmentation).

Other Positive Qualities: Astral Sight, Biocompatibility,
Double Jointed, High Pain Tolerance, Magic Resistance, Natural
Hardening, Natural Immunity, Quick Healer, Resistance to
Pathogens/Toxins, Spell/Spirit Knack, Toughness
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Malicant @ Sep 2 2008, 08:45 PM) *
Trying that in my game would be asking for a kick in the balls. Biocompatability as a result of SURGE? Come on, that's so uberlame, even for powergaming purposes.
So yeah, wouldn't allow that combo. 40BP, would not allow to acquire in game with Karma because dump and so on.


As Muspellsheimr so kindly pointed out, it IS a positive Metagenetic quality. So if you allow SURGE then you allow players to maybe twink their characters this way. I'm not saying that it's right or anything, but hey let's face it... it can be done.

Oh, BTW, kicking people in the balls for saying stupid things is not a good way to keep friends. They sort of get annoyed when you do so.
jago668
Also just a side note. Kicking people in the balls for saying stupid things. That cuts out roughly 50% of the people saying stupid things.
The Jopp
I personally see no problem with this.

The characters abilities would be rare and require him to be a changeling too.

Oh, and he would be a harvestable resource for cloning factories...

You could probably make money by selling a pint of his blood once a week or so.
ArkonC
So to all those who wouldn't allow it, would you also rule biocompatability has no effect on delta grade bioware? Because type O just makes basic count as delta...
And what about Beta or Alpha, does biocompatability count then?
KCKitsune
QUOTE (jago668 @ Sep 3 2008, 12:25 AM) *
Also just a side note. Kicking people in the balls for saying stupid things. That cuts out roughly 50% of the people saying stupid things.


Until you try to kick somebody in the nuts and they then proceed to pound you into a nice little grease smear.

Back on topic: The rules will allow you to do this, but let's face it, you're not going to be able to afford all the neat bioware that you want at character gen. Bioware is DAMN expensive and if you want to blow all 35 of your Positive Quality points on being able to squeeze in more bioware than you'll EVER need, then have at it.
The Jopp
A thing to keep in mind is also that a Type-O character cannot use second hand ware.

Personally I'd rather take Biocompability and use second hand bioware as the price for some very good basic bioware is horribly expensive. And bioware is already very essence friendly so that 1,1 cost isn't so bad.
Ryu
BioComp counts for deltaware, no questions asked. Type-O on its own is a valid quality. Both are in my game, but on different characters.

Builds who add both qualities are (likely doomed) attempts at twinking out. I´d look at the sheet out of pure curiosity, but the answer to combining both is "no". If you want to be super-special, take something that would not make DocWaggon offer a contract (on your body, alive preferred / fresh corpse sufficient).

The Jopp
It clearly states that as a quality Biocompability may only be taken once.

But did they consider the possibility of a surge quality at that time? Once as a surge quality and once as a regular quality...

Personally I would allow it but they would not stack - the character could surge and have Biocompability (Cyberware) and be born with Biocompability (Bioware)
Muspellsheimr
Biocompatability is exactly the same quality as Biocompatability, regardless if you take it from SURGE or normal acquisition. SURGE only allows you to take it as part of your minimum Metagenetic qualities - it does not change it in any way.

That being said, Biocompatability does stack with all grades of 'ware, regardless of how that grade is obtained - so yes, Biocompatability & Type-O System do stack, for a total of 60% reduction, or 0.4 multiplier (which is conveniently not one of the available poll options).
Ed_209a
Here's my take, largely in line with Skip.

Biocompatibility means you are slightly more compatible with type-O bioware than normal.

Type-O means you _are_ type-O bioware. You are practically a clone of Owen Whiting.

Does it make sense to be 110% compatible with something?
ArkonC
QUOTE (Ed_209a @ Sep 3 2008, 12:58 PM) *
Here's my take, largely in line with Skip.

Biocompatibility means you are slightly more compatible with type-O bioware than normal.

Type-O means you _are_ type-O bioware. You are practically a clone of Owen Whiting.

Does it make sense to be 110% compatible with something?

So by extention biocompatability doesn't work with delta, delta isn't made with type O properties, but with your own type...
paws2sky
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Sep 2 2008, 05:26 PM) *
if you allow your players to twink their characters then it is possible:

SURGE Class I = 5 BP (allowing 10 BP worth of metagenic characteristics == Biocompatability)
Type O Body = 30 BP

This would allow that combination.


Doh! I glossed over the "other qualities" part of that section. In that case, if someone wanted to go to all the trouble, then sure, I'd allow it.

-paws
Ed_209a
QUOTE (ArkonC @ Sep 3 2008, 06:02 AM) *
So by extention biocompatability doesn't work with delta, delta isn't made with type O properties, but with your own type...

I hadn't thought it through that far, but yeah, I would agree with that.

The standard-->delta progression seems to represent incrementally more customization of the implant to your specific system. I think we can consider Delta grade to be a perfect match. Biocompatibility just means you start out a step closer to a perfect match.

Since the math results in Biocomp + Betaware = 63% base essense cost for x4 nuyen cost, I might let the person with Biocomp buy "Beta+" at 5x to max out at 50% base essence.

I can't really explain why a perfect match still costs essence. By this reasoning, Delta bioware should essentially be the same as SURGE abilities.



Stahlseele
it's the same problem as to why a replacement heart, lung or liver or something like that does not cost any essence either . .
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (Ed_209a @ Sep 3 2008, 05:39 PM) *
I can't really explain why a perfect match still costs essence.

Because it isn't.
Delta ist just the best you can get.
Rasumichin
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Sep 3 2008, 04:58 PM) *
it's the same problem as to why a replacement heart, lung or liver or something like that does not cost any essence either . .


The heart, lung or liver work exactly like the one you had before.
The syntharcadium, extended volume and so on don't.

Even if they are as close to your own tissue as possible, they will always be slightly different- on a much more fundamental level than a heart, lung or liver from an organ donor as far your "holistic integrity" is concerned.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Ed_209a @ Sep 3 2008, 03:58 AM) *
Here's my take, largely in line with Skip.

Biocompatibility means you are slightly more compatible with type-O bioware than normal.

Type-O means you _are_ type-O bioware. You are practically a clone of Owen Whiting.

Does it make sense to be 110% compatible with something?

Biocompatability does not mean you are more compatible with Type-O bioware, it means you are more compatible with all bioware. It does work with Delta-Grade 'ware (bioware grown with your blood), & Type-O means all basic bioware is effectively grown with your blood. The two do stack, with the normal % stacking rules of Shadowrun, for a total of 40% Essence cost (60% reduction).
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