TKDNinjaInBlack
Sep 8 2008, 07:50 PM
According the core rule book, augmenting a physical attribute by one rating point with the adept power "improved physical attribute" costs 1 adept power point.
However, the second paragraph states:
"This power allows you to exceed your natural attribute maximum up to the augmented maximum, but each point over the maximum costs double (2 power points per level)."
Now here is where I get confused. The maximum that is used in the second part of the sentence could mean either the natural maximum or the augmented maximum because both are used in the previous part of the sentence. Depending on which one it is, this could create two scenarios. If;
1:) the maximum it is referring to is the natural maximum, it causes some problems with when a player would purchase this power.
examples. Character X (human) has Agility 3 and improved physical attribute level 3. His Agility would be 3 (6). The cost in adept power points would be 3.
However, Character Y (human) has Agility 6 and improved physical attribute level 3. His Agility is 6 (9), but the cost in adept power points he spent was 6.
Ideally, if you wanted to avoid the jump in cost, you'd build a character with a lower agility at the start gate, and buy your max levels in this power first. Then you'd up your natural agility with karma. You'd have to pay for the equivalent augmented target rating when improving with karma, but it is still way cheaper than having to up further levels of magic (especially when you add in initiation costs). So with this tactic and using the examples above, Character Y could have his agility 6 (9) merely and only pay 3 adept power points for it if he was just careful with in what order he improved his character. This seems unfair and confusing. Why punish a character who wanted to beef up his natural attribute before augmenting it with adept powers?
the other possible meaning that could be taken from this second paragraph is 2:) that the maximum being referred to is the augmented maximum. This would make the above problem null and void and make the order of operations for improving a character less costly in the long run. But, it would allow Players to create adept characters that spend all of their karma on upping magic in order to further improve their attributes BEYOND the augmented maximums. In the long run, it is impossible to make this efficient as the amount of karma spent on further magic levels and initiation would be astronomical and the GM really wouldn't have to worry about this becoming too much of a problem. The thing that bothers me about this scenario though, is that the first part of the sentence in that second paragraph is worded to make the reader think that they can use this power to only take it "up to" the augmented max.
I've been playing SR4 for about 2 1/2 years now and this problem has always plagued me but I really didn't press the issue as I GMed more than played. I am creating an adept martial artist/infiltration ninja for a new campaign and would like to have this ironed out before I finish the creation process so I know where to go with my BP and adept points.
I'd really like help with this misunderstanding, especially from a developer if they are around. I've read the forum a bit, but am a first time poster and hope it won't affect my topic being passed up.
Thanks in advance.
Ol' Scratch
Sep 8 2008, 07:53 PM
Your augmented maximum is just that; the maximum you can augment the attribute be it through implants, magic, or anything else.
For a normal human adept, it costs 1 Power Point to raise a Physical Attribute by +1 up to 6. For 7-9, it costs 2 Power Points. Improved Physical Attribute will not augment those attributes beyond 9 for such a character.
Welcome on DS.
Regarding your question, see that only one of those attribute values may be exceeded. 1 per point up to the natural max, 2 for every point beyond that, with the augmented max as absolute maximum.
ArkonC
Sep 8 2008, 07:59 PM
Also, if you have Str 3 and buy improved Str, you don't get 3(4), you get 4 and it now costs you 15 karma to improve Str...
HappyDaze
Sep 8 2008, 08:09 PM
I'd suggest houseruling this power to function as an enhancement and without the doubling cost above the natural max. Otherwise, by RAW, the power sucks ass.
Muspellsheimr
Sep 8 2008, 08:14 PM
By RAW, this is by far the worst Power. Comparable to the Astral Sight quality, possibly even worse than that.
I would suggest:
Improved Physical Attribute
Cost: 0.5 PP / Level
This power increases the augmented value of a Physical attribute by +1 per level. This power is taken seperatly for each of the four Physical attributes.
TKDNinjaInBlack
Sep 8 2008, 08:19 PM
In General, yes, the rule does "suck ass," but it does a good job of permanent (until background count reduces magic and in turn your adept power points and powers) improvement to a physical attribute.
Everything said so far doesn't really help because it's exactly as I've read in the book. I understand when the power costs 1 point and when it costs 2. The inherent problem is that this can be circumvented with clever munchkining. One can buy the adept power first, while his nat. att. rating is low (1-3), and then after he has 3 levels of this power, up his nat rating with karma.
Oh, BTW the att rating would be writin: natural (augmented). Adept powers are no exception to that rule. It's on pg. 62 in the core.
Muspellsheimr
Sep 8 2008, 08:28 PM
This Adept Power is an exception to that rule - it increases your Natural, not Augmented attribute, so it is written as your Natural attribute. Using this Adept Power to increase an attribute functions the same as using Karma to increase the attribute.
And yes, your question was answered by previous posters. This power does not allow you to exceed your Augmented maximum, only to achieve it "naturally", at an increased cost.
HappyDaze
Sep 8 2008, 08:31 PM
QUOTE
This Adept Power is an exception to that rule - it increases your Natural, not Augmented attribute, so it is written as your Natural attribute. Using this Adept Power to increase an attribute functions the same as using Karma to increase the attribute.
Except for that nasty problem with Background Count.
I'm really not going to comment on the RAW version of this power anymore because it sucks so bad right now that no one I know will use the RAW form in a game - player or GM.
Isath
Sep 8 2008, 10:16 PM
Indeed, this power appears somewhat worthless - at least it wouldn't come to my mind to spend points on this. Bioware is at a major advantage here. Pick up 3 levels of muscle augmentation with muscle toner, and you get to the max in no time (given that you are human and have agility and strentgh at 6). If you don't, you can still raise the attributes without increased cost.
Muscle Augmentation 3 and Muscle Toner 3 would cost 45k and 1.2 essence. Raise this to alpha, pay 90k and your essence will only go down by 1 - 6 attribute points for 1 magic and a nifty but managable sum of 90k. Thinking of it, it seems much easier to earn 90k than to "earn" 6 magic points.
SpasticTeapot
Sep 8 2008, 10:26 PM
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Sep 8 2008, 03:31 PM)
Except for that nasty problem with Background Count.
I'm really not going to comment on the RAW version of this power anymore because it sucks so bad right now that no one I know will use the RAW form in a game - player or GM.
Getting a strength of 6 normally costs 75BP, if memory serves.
Strength 5 plus one point of magic for Improved Attribute costs 60BP.
It's still a savings, if a small one.
Tarantula
Sep 8 2008, 10:28 PM
QUOTE (SpasticTeapot @ Sep 8 2008, 03:26 PM)
Getting a strength of 6 normally costs 75BP, if memory serves.
Strength 5 plus one point of magic for Improved Attribute costs 60BP.
It's still a savings, if a small one.
65 actually for str 1->6 with a human.
Jackstand
Sep 8 2008, 11:44 PM
I think that the most favorable light in which to view this power is that it essentially allows you to exceed the 1/2 total BP attribute cap. Ten BP into magic is, then, equivalent to ten BP into any of your physical attributes. If you're going from five to six with the power, you're actually saving fifteen BP, in fact.
Ol' Scratch
Sep 8 2008, 11:50 PM
I'd rather use the Power Point for... just about anything else, really. I've never once had a character in any edition who wasted points on Improved Physical Attribute or its counterparts. Attributes are highly overrated.
Glyph
Sep 9 2008, 01:47 AM
Yeah, the RAW rules stink. And I'm not one of those people who thinks that every adept power should be comparable in cost to the bioware equivalent. I think it fits the setting better that there are some things that tech simply does better, and even the "purest" mage or adept should be tempted to get 1 or 2 points' worth of 'ware.
So, I don't think the adept ability of Improved Attribute needs to be as good as muscle augmentation and toner - it doesn't even need to be as good as muscle replacement. But it shouldn't suck so badly that no-one ever takes it, ever.
TKDNinjaInBlack
Sep 9 2008, 02:56 AM
No, I really know this power sucks ass. It's just that the character has a prejudice against artificially(cyber/bioware) enhanced fighters (playing up the whole magic v tech haughty mentality that goes with most magic users). It would be a bit of hypocritical for my character then to take three levels of muscle toner and muscle augmentation (both alpha to make it only one essence loss) while RPing this flaw. Ideally I was looking for permanent solutions for augmenting attributes over the natural maximums without resorting to the things my character stands against.
Trust me, I've laid out this kind of super fighter (a cybered martial arts adept) before as an NPC just to be a dick to my players and I know their awesome abilities right out of the box. They have the instant gratification of a cybered street sam plus the ability to use all kinds of wicked adept powers that you can eventually buy to do things the sammy never could (with enough combat sense later down the road, players get very pissed when they can't just shoot the guy running up to them). It's not that I am simply trying to min max this character though. I am trying to keep a good concept in mind for roleplaying and keeping it interesting, and not letting my warez contradict the very things my character stands against.
I guess with the limitations I've placed on the characters personality, I will mostly need to rely on the adept power attribute boost and possibly somatic control metamagic to up my attributes to augmented maximums.
Also, i am not trying to pick fights, but this adept power does augment the natural. It's worded just like Muscle Replacement cyberware (pg334 core). It increases the attribute by it's rating/level. Nowhere does it say it alters your natural attribute rating. It says it allows you to exceed it up to your augmented maximum (which is augmentation). Again, I'll cite pg62 to prove that any cyberware, bioware, adept power, or magic "augments" (which is also different than giving bonus dice, noted with a (+1), (+2), etc.) attribute ratings. The only time natural attribute ratings are changed is when you increase them with karma. Once you hit the natural max, you can't increase it with karma anymore.
Jackstand
Sep 9 2008, 03:00 AM
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Sep 8 2008, 06:50 PM)
I'd rather use the Power Point for... just about anything else, really. I've never once had a character in any edition who wasted points on Improved Physical Attribute or its counterparts. Attributes are highly overrated.
I'll admit that I've only used it once in fourth edition, but in third edition, I used Improved Physical Attribute extensively.
ArkonC
Sep 9 2008, 08:11 AM
QUOTE (TKDNinjaInBlack @ Sep 9 2008, 04:56 AM)
Also, i am not trying to pick fights, but this adept power does augment the natural. It's worded just like Muscle Replacement cyberware (pg334 core). It increases the attribute by it's rating/level. Nowhere does it say it alters your natural attribute rating. It says it allows you to exceed it up to your augmented maximum (which is augmentation). Again, I'll cite pg62 to prove that any cyberware, bioware, adept power, or magic "augments" (which is also different than giving bonus dice, noted with a (+1), (+2), etc.) attribute ratings. The only time natural attribute ratings are changed is when you increase them with karma. Once you hit the natural max, you can't increase it with karma anymore.
QUOTE (BBB)
With this power, you can raise a Physical attribute (Agility, Body, Reaction, or Strength). Each level increases the attribute by one. If you later want to increase the attribute using Karma (see p. 264), the cost is based on the total attribute, including the magical improvements. Increasing Reaction with this power also affects Initiative.
This power allows you to exceed your natural attribute maximum up to the augmented maximum, but each point over the maximum costs double (2 Power points per level).
Emphasis mine, so for all intents and purposes it increases the natural rating, since it even counts for Karma improvements...
If it looks like a horse, and acts like a horse, maybe it's a horse...
TKDNinjaInBlack
Sep 9 2008, 01:08 PM
I see what's confusing you. By total attribute they don't mean natural. They mean the Augmented attribute rating, which is the natural plus the level of improved attribute. So:
Att Nat 5, Improved Att Rating 2 would be 5 (7). When you buy Karma for the upgrade, you wouldn't purchase your next level at 18 points, but rather 24 points because your next effective level would be 8 denoted by a 6 ( 8 ).
A problem with using that power to actually raising your natural attribute is that if you were to have your adept powers zapped by a detrimental mana ebb or void, or if the background count is aspected to something that isn't complementary to your tradition, you would have to know how much improved attribute levels were lost because of loss of power. In that regard, you'd be subtracting the difference between your augmented rating and your natural from your dice pools (unless you had another attribute booster that wasn't an adept power). Essentially, if you lose all your adept powers, you'd just have to use your natural attribute and you need to denote the difference between the two in case that situation ever happens.
I know from experience playing that (at least in my group) that background counts didn't come up much and when they did, it was a plot device to place our magic users on edge and get them spooked and cautious because they were weakened. Most of the time the GM didn't want to futz with background counts so they were mostly forgotten about unless it was to help the storytelling.
Isath
Sep 9 2008, 01:54 PM
My comparison was not ment to imply that every adept power should be comparable to a tech or ware. What I did however is compare them to show how much that power actually sucks compared to bioware. That amount of "suckage"
is way out of line. Even if you do not view implants as an alternative, there appears to be no reason to buy the adept equivalent - especially when compared to what other things you can get for those points.
Ol' Scratch
Sep 9 2008, 04:31 PM
I seriously doubt many people would argue that point.
But even if implants were a comparable cost, I'd still rather spend my Power Points elsewhere nine times out of ten. An extra die for my dice pool is just boring compared to getting powers like Beserk, Commanding Voice, Elemental Strike, Enthralling Performance or Traceless Walk. If all I wanted was an attribute boost, I'd probably go the implant path even if the costs were identical.
TKDNinjaInBlack
Sep 9 2008, 06:21 PM
No, I absolutely hear you on that. I am a big fan of a lot of other adept powers, namely combat sense, critical strike (which is awesome for the cost), Improved Ability, improved reflexes, killing hands (maybe I am up in the air about this because you can do physical damage if you learn a maneuver, but it's needed for my wanted water elemental strike), berserk (possibly), counterstrike, nerve strike, penetrating strike (possibly) smashing blow. I still don't know what order I want these in, but that's to figured out tomorrow or so.
HappyDaze
Sep 9 2008, 08:38 PM
QUOTE
critical strike (which is awesome for the cost)
This power is the opposite of Improved Physial Attribute in that it is actually too good for its cost. At 0.5 power points per level it would still be attractive to unarmed combat enthusiasts.
QUOTE
killing hands (maybe I am up in the air about this because you can do physical damage if you learn a maneuver, but it's needed for my wanted water elemental strike)
The ability to do P damage is less impressive than the ability to bypass Immunity to Normal Weapons - making this 0.5 power points well spent if your adept ever has to face a mid-to-high Force spirit.
Skip
Sep 9 2008, 10:39 PM
QUOTE (HappyDaze @ Sep 9 2008, 04:38 PM)
The ability to do P damage is less impressive than the ability to bypass Immunity to Normal Weapons - making this 0.5 power points well spent if your adept ever has to face a mid-to-high Force spirit.
Agreed. Any adept taking spirit bane pretty much has to take it.
Wakshaani
Sep 9 2008, 10:53 PM
Gotta say that I'm on the bandwagon for the 0.5 cost for Improved Physical Attribute as well. (And, thus, 1.0 for stats above racial limit, capping at racial max as usual).
At the current cost, it just ... sits there. Untouched. Unloved. A fallow field that no runner ever visits.
Alas, alas...
Muspellsheimr
Sep 9 2008, 10:57 PM
QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Sep 9 2008, 04:53 PM)
Gotta say that I'm on the bandwagon for the 0.5 cost for Improved Physical Attribute as well. (And, thus, 1.0 for stats above racial limit, capping at racial max as usual).
I don't think you get the proposal - even with your interpretation, it would still be crap most of the time; it works just like an increase to the Natural attribute, which is retarded. It should work as an increase to the Augmented attribute, which also means that it would
always be 0.5 PP.
ArkonC
Sep 9 2008, 11:06 PM
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Sep 10 2008, 12:57 AM)
I don't think you get the proposal - even with your interpretation, it would still be crap most of the time; it works just like an increase to the Natural attribute, which is retarded. It should work as an increase to the Augmented attribute, which also means that it would always be 0.5 PP.
However, 0.5 would be too cheap compared to improved combat skill, which also costs 0.5, this can be solved, however, by making combat skills cost 0.25 just like improved any other skill, which they should have to begin with...
HappyDaze
Sep 9 2008, 11:22 PM
QUOTE
However, 0.5 would be too cheap compared to improved combat skill, which also costs 0.5, this can be solved, however, by making combat skills cost 0.25 just like improved any other skill, which they should have to begin with...
This looks familiar...
It was recently proposed by myself (among others) in another thread along with taking the Reaction increase out of Improved Reflexes (you buy Imp P{hy Att [Reaction] seperately and an equal level or greater is a prerequisite for Imp Ref) with an adjusted cost of 1 per level.
Stahlseele
Sep 9 2008, 11:24 PM
ok, so now you've lessened the cost for two more or less pretty effective adept powers, what does samy samurai get in return for fairness reasons?
HappyDaze
Sep 9 2008, 11:26 PM
Nothing. By RAW they have plenty of an advantage already. It may not be right for your game, but that's hardly my problem.
Stahlseele
Sep 9 2008, 11:30 PM
main reason for the adept stuff being priced as it is?
balance.
the adept stuff does not cost money, does not take away your essence, and aside from some magical security it will NEVER show up ANYWHERE . .
technically speaking, each of those adept powers comes to each adept automatically, at some point of time . .
you get karma(read, experience), you invest karma(read, you learn/train), you spend the power-point(bam, it's there, nothing else needed)
HappyDaze
Sep 9 2008, 11:41 PM
QUOTE
main reason for the adept stuff being priced as it is?
balance.
Balance in SR4? That's funny. The rules have so many inblances in them it's rahter disappointing for a fourth edition of a game and then the writers just wave it off (look at the metavariant excuses). In almost every case, it's up to the GM to make the game his own, and in my games, the adept powers need to be recosted.
QUOTE
the adept stuff does not cost money, does not take away your essence, and aside from some magical security it will NEVER show up ANYWHERE . .
technically speaking, each of those adept powers comes to each adept automatically, at some point of time . .
you get karma(read, experience), you invest karma(read, you learn/train), you spend the power-point(bam, it's there, nothing else needed)
Don't bring fluff to a crunch argument. Much of what you're saying is game-specific, and in some games it won't matter at all. Likewise, in many games it's far easier to get cash and have a high-end cybersurgeon as a contact than it is to rack up loads of karms. If you're in a game with differing concerns, then do it another way, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong for what I do in my games.
TKDNinjaInBlack
Sep 10 2008, 01:33 AM
I keep hearing a whole lot about balance and change. Whatever happened to trusting the developers? Things aren't always balanced. In fact, it's better that way. That's the joy of harder to play characters. Yeah, it is far easier (especially with build point money in the beginning) to cyber up a street samurai and hit the field combat ready and take down most hardened opponents. It's a total beginner character (as most combat is in role playing games).
Playing the awakened requires more skill and a lot more patience. There isn't the instant gratification that comes from being a total bad ass, you have to work up to it. And it really does take a long time. They aren't characters for short campaigns. Technomancers are the same kind of character. Takes tons of karma to make them a monster, but the thing is, they don't cap and can keep building while the street samurai reaches his limits early.
<BIG EDIT>
Just did some research in the Core Book. I was going to use improved reflexes as an example to prove balance, and was put on my backside by what I read. Here goes.
One could argue for the fact that the four different ways to get more initiative passes aren't balanced. It's pretty much true. Increased Reflexes as a spell is on learned spell and a -2 to sustain (or a sustaining focus) away from having 4 initiative passes. Pretty easy. Next we see Wired Reflexes and Synaptic Boosters as the middle ground, mostly exchangeable depending on whether the player is arguing essence is more important or monetary cost. Finally, Improved Reflexes with its massive 5 power point cost for a total of 4 initiative passes is pretty steep. that's a lot of build points and karma to accumulate those passes.
But one has to read between the lines. Every single one of those augmentations have a bonus beside the initiative passes. The spell is kind of blah with a +1 rating to initiative and only that. Not nearly as useful as both Synaptic boosters and Wired reflexes which give a +1 rating to Reaction. This is handy for all kinds of skills linked to reaction whereas the spells bump in initiative is only good for just initiative. However, the augmentation that takes the cake is the adept power Improved Reflexes. The bonus given with the initiative passes is a +1 die per rank. That means that it doesn't truly augment reaction in any manner, but just give bonus die. This helps the reaction dice pool exceed the maximum augmented rating by the rank. The core book (pg 63, Skill ratings) differentiates between augmentations that alter the rating itself, creating a modified (or in the event of attributes, an augmented) rating and between augmentations that give bonus dice to a test. Those bonus dice are added on top of the augmented rating. That's why Improved reflexes is so awesome. the bonus is a dice modifier to reaction. One could still augment a reaction attribute to it's limit and throw extra dice linked to it because of improved reflexes.
There is balance in this. What is easier is cheaper and what takes more time and effort is worth more.
Unfortunately, we don't see this same idea with improved attribute, so my argument for balance existing only goes as far as initiative passes.
Glyph
Sep 10 2008, 01:42 AM
I have to disagree with that interpretation. It says +1 die to Reaction, not +1 die to Reaction rolls. Granted, it could be phrased better, but it's obviously an Attribute increase, not a dice bonus. Look at how the Gunslinger Adept Archetype's Reaction is listed - 5 (7), not # (+2) like the specializations are.
TKDNinjaInBlack
Sep 10 2008, 02:09 AM
yeah, that pretty much trounces what I said. Thanks for pointing that out.
HappyDaze
Sep 10 2008, 02:18 AM
QUOTE
Whatever happened to trusting the developers?
I've never trusted the SR4 developers to give me a good game. Hell, what enjoyment I've gotten from the SR4 games I've been in and run has been
despite their craptastic rules more often than not. I have a few local players that won't touch SR4 unless it has serious houserules - and the views of those players are far more important in my eyes than any of the developers' opinions or rulings.
TKDNinjaInBlack
Sep 10 2008, 02:23 AM
Alright, we've established that Improved attribute sucks in 4e and that you can't exceed the augmented att max (that was just wishful thinking on my part).
But that still leaves my question of what is keeping a min/max munchkin player from buying a low phys attribute at character creation, then using improved attribute before it goes over the natural max, and then upping the natural attribute rating with karma (while paying a bit extra for those next ranks to account for the augmented value as written) to bypass that hideous point markup post natural maximum?
Muspellsheimr
Sep 10 2008, 02:31 AM
If you use Improved Physical Attribute to bring an attribute up to your Natural maximum, you cannot later increase that attribute with Karma. As I pointed out before, the power does not give you an Augmented rating, but an increase to the Natural rating. There are two things pointing towards this; augmented ratings never affect Karma advancement costs, & augmented ratings never care if you are going above your natural maximum.
If you want to increase your attribute with Karma, after having maxed it out with the power, you will need to enter a background count to "loose" the power, then increase it with Karma. After you leave, the power has 1 point invested, when it needs 2, so it will not function until you increase your magic & invest in it again.
As written, there can be some variable interpretations to how it would work, but my outline above makes the most sense with how the rules work. I strongly suggest house-ruling this power to both make it usable, & avoid the unnecessary complications (bullshit) above.
HappyDaze
Sep 10 2008, 02:34 AM
Nothing. But you're still eating a high cost in increasing those Attributes with Karma as well as in Magic since those points are effectively used up just getting what you could have gained anyway. It still bites you one way or another. You might be better to skimp on the points elsewhere (like Magic!) and just get the Attributes up directly during character creation.
Consider taking Agility 4, Body 4, Strength 4, and Magic 6 for a human. BP cost of 155. You take your 6 Power Points and up Agility to 5, Body to 5, and Strength to 5 along with Improved Reflexes 2.
As the other option, take Agility 5, Body 5, Strength 5 and Magic 5 for a human. BP Cost of 160. You take your 5 Power Points and get Improved Reflexes 3.
I know which one I'd do...
TKDNinjaInBlack
Sep 10 2008, 03:53 AM
Yeah, I know which one I'd pick too. Plus, with your math there, the first example actually would only be improved reflexes 1 for 2 power points.
HappyDaze
Sep 10 2008, 03:57 AM
QUOTE
Plus, with your math there, the first example actually would only be improved reflexes 1 for 2 power points.
Imp Phy Att (Agility) 1 = 1 pp
Imp Phy Att (Body) 1 = 1 pp
Imp Phy Att (Strength) 1 = 1 pp
Imp Reflexes 2 = 3 pp
Where's my math error?
TKDNinjaInBlack
Sep 10 2008, 03:59 AM
my bad, I thought the magic was rating 5. Nope, your math is good.
Muspellsheimr
Sep 10 2008, 04:04 AM
Okay, just because I am curious, is there anyone that does not agree that Improved Physical Attribute RAW sucks ass?
HappyDaze
Sep 10 2008, 04:09 AM
Is there
anyone that does not agree that water is wet?
ArkonC
Sep 10 2008, 09:35 AM
Well, I think it rules...I also think Teletubbies are the shit and pistachio green is a good color to paint your bedroom...
BullZeye
Sep 10 2008, 10:15 AM
Last I checked, SR4 isn't a PvP game so who cares if something is balanced or not? It is a RPG and therefore doesn't need to be perfectly balanced on every aspect. So what if your adept can't get cheap augmentations but as someone else pointed out, none of those augmentations cost money, essence or restrict where you can go. Also if SR4 is soooo bad and unbalanced and crappy and boohoo, what does it help to complain about it? Change to another game or adapt or change it the way you want but whining about it isn't solving anything. Adepts don't get cheap augmentations but they get tons of other goodies. Does that ruin the character not being able to make the perfect adept? Tough.
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=23368 Amen to that.
Ol' Scratch
Sep 10 2008, 11:12 AM
QUOTE (BullZeye @ Sep 10 2008, 05:15 AM)
Last I checked, SR4 isn't a PvP game so who cares if something is balanced or not?
Watching your friend at the table do everything your character can do just as well if not better
in addition to numerous other things with nearly equal ease isn't much fun. That's why game balance matters. And if your character sucks worse than everyone else's at the table, and especially due to no fault of your own, there's something terribly wrong.
But tell you what, you go play your Normal Guy with every Attribute at 2-3, maybe one or two non-combat Active and Knowledge/Language Skills at 2, one Contact with Loyalty 1 and Connections 1 and maybe --
maybe -- a Hold-Out Pistol (that he's not skilled in) and be happy as you and your team (all prime runners) break into that top-of-the-line high security facility. Afterall, who cares if he's completely worthless as a runner? He doesn't have to be balanced in order to contribute equally to the run, right? Riiiight.
Hyperbole, yes. Doesn't change the point, however.
Jackstand
Sep 10 2008, 07:40 PM
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Sep 9 2008, 11:04 PM)
Okay, just because I am curious, is there anyone that does not agree that Improved Physical Attribute RAW sucks ass?
QUOTE (Jackstand @ Sep 8 2008, 06:44 PM)
I think that the most favorable light in which to view this power is that it essentially allows you to exceed the 1/2 total BP attribute cap. Ten BP into magic is, then, equivalent to ten BP into any of your physical attributes. If you're going from five to six with the power, you're actually saving fifteen BP, in fact.
I'm totally ok with it.
Rasumichin
Sep 10 2008, 07:58 PM
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Sep 9 2008, 11:30 PM)
the adept stuff does not cost money, does not take away your essence, and aside from some magical security it will NEVER show up ANYWHERE . .
Yes, but if you take a look at how hard it is to spot bioware (or, for that matter, delta-grade cyber), either with cyberware scanners or assensing, it is not that much of an advantage.
Especially if you consider that it is extremely easy to ascertain that someone is an adept on the astral.
By the time when you have scanners good enough to realiably detect bioware, astral security is more than likely.
On the astral, it takes 1 hit to see wether you're awakened and
4 to see wether you have bioware.
Masking can improve the concealability of adept powers a great deal, of course.
When your Willpower, Magic and initiate grade combined equal 12, you're as safe from being spotted as the dude with the bio-implants, and it gets better from there.
So, in theory, adepts can be more stealthy (and for runners, this will most likely be the case at some point in the not-so-distant-from-chargen-future), but in practice, this is rarely, very rarely, an advantage that makes up for the general suckitude of adept powers in combat.
With the exception of those characters that can only take delta-grade cyber- or bioware, such as shifters or StrainI-Infected, becoming a sam will be the better choice if they want to become a combatant.
Adepts retain the niche as skillmonkeys, being the best at social tasks, infiltration, breaking and entering and the like.
Stahlseele
Sep 10 2008, 08:54 PM
just to make sure: is there any way to find out what kind of adept powers someone has?