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The Jake
I know toxics and insect shamans are normally banned but has anyone ever played one?

What about evil guys like Mr. Darke, Teachdaire or any type of shadowy figure that has next to no soul or conscience about their actions?

Anyone?

- J.
Connor
I played a blood mage in a short lived campaign. It was a blast and it's too bad that particular GM moved away from Shadowrun. One of my favorite scenes with the character involved a Lone Star sting operation to capture him, since his thirst for blood and magic had turned him into a serial killer. The great thing about it is he was never caught. I'd love to start that game back up again someday....
Luke Hardison
I have a player who plays what you're suggesting regularly, acting "without a soul or conscience" and usually add loyalty to that. The other players are starting to not like that much, especially the last part. After he lost all his karma on a run because he shot another player in the back for 200 nuyen.gif , I started giving him the option of playing by the amoral campaign rules, where basically he would not get a karma award from the GM, but would buy karma at a variable nuyen rate. I think it's 2d6x1000 nuyen.gif ; the rules are in the Shadowrun Companion.
Connor
Damn, I may have been playing an elfie blood mage serial killer, but he would have never shot someone in the back for 200 nuyen.


Probably because there isn't quite the same thrill if they dont' know they're going to die nyahnyah.gif
The Jake
I don't mind soulless killers necessarily... particularly if there is a good backstory.
But killing other PCs and promoting party disharmony is not cool no matter which way you cut the mustard.

- J.
Connor
QUOTE (The Jake)
I don't mind soulless killers necessarily... particularly if there is a good backstory.
But killing other PCs and promoting party disharmony is not cool no matter which way you cut the mustard.

- J.


I definately agree with you there.

If playing a 'real bad guy' or a blood mage or toxic shaman or insect shaman or whatever else is crimping everyone else's style at the table it's definately time to move on to a new character.
D.Generate
If its one thing I hate more in any RPG its those few people that "have" to cause inner patry/group problems. Other than that i have no problem with "bad" guys if there really is such a thing in SR.
northern lights
what is the problem with having group conflict? is everyone here so blind that they all think that a group of 5 or 6 different people are always going to think alike? i for one am more than up for playing a little group strife, i think it is more fun than any other challenge cause it is completely the players roleplaying without the gm guiding or directing them.

as for bad players or whatever, i think it is a lot of fun to play a guy with a certain moral flexibility. i think that it can add far more to a campaign when a skilled roleplayer is "bad" then when an untalented rollplayer powergames his way through a session.

what matters is whether the group has fun. there are good and bad people in all the worlds, so why not let it be in shadowrun and enjoy it?
CanvasBack
QUOTE (northern lights)
what is the problem with having group conflict? is everyone here so blind that they all think that a group of 5 or 6 different people are always going to think alike?

I'll second this part. Hell, the Beatles broke up and there were only 4 of them. Even bands that stay together fight once in awhile. People only stay married 50% of the time in the good old US of A now adays. I think it's fairly safe to say that professional criminals in a dystopic future might have the occassional disagreement.
mike_the_fish
QUOTE (northern lights)
what is the problem with having group conflict? is everyone here so blind that they all think that a group of 5 or 6 different people are always going to think alike? i for one am more than up for playing a little group strife, i think it is more fun than any other challenge cause it is completely the players roleplaying without the gm guiding or directing them.


Indeed you are correct, in real life, 6 people would probably have all sorts of problems, especially if they are professional criminals. However this is not real life. This is a game. And many times, if a player is taking the whole "party strife" issue a bit too far, it can ruin the other players' fun - which is unnacceptable.

Party strife is all well and good, but only in moderation. I mean, if I REALLY want to experience strife, I will go hang out with my inlaws! eek.gif
Sahandrian
I play evil characters all the time... but then again, I GM.

Yeah, my internet is working again.
mfb
what mike said. i mean, if your group likes plotting and planning against each other, and everybody's having fun, go for it. but i'll kick a guy out if he's being a jerkass because that's the only way he knows how to have fun.
D.Generate
QUOTE (mfb)
what mike said. i mean, if your group likes plotting and planning against each other, and everybody's having fun, go for it. but i'll kick a guy out if he's being a jerkass because that's the only way he knows how to have fun.

Thats what I mean. Whole groups screwing each other over is fine but I had one player who's goal it seemed to cause as much agrivation as possible to everyone including me. Like MFB said a jerkass.

And now i don't expect a group of criminals to be best buds all the time, but then again look at the Usual Suspects those guys were all cool with each other and they still made fun of each other and such. Just like any real life group of friends do.
Lindt
I gotta admit, though I havent done it yet, playing the 'ringer' in a group is always fun. As long as its socialy acceptable with the players. Its a pretty dangerous trick, cause its eather gonna make for a great game, or its gonna kill it very nastly.
Cray74
QUOTE (The Jake)
What about evil guys like Mr. Darke, Teachdaire or any type of shadowy figure that has next to no soul or conscience about their actions?

Gee...

From the time a PC utters, "We leave no witnesses," to the time a PC gets the bright idea that a stun ball meant to take down a willpower 6 target amongst a crowd of willpower 2 shoppers is a good idea, I'm not sure PCs actually have to be Bad Guys to be bad guys, at least if you're defining bad guys as "having next to no soul or conscience."

Now, if you added the caveat, "and were actively Eee-veelll, and strove to do Eee-veelll deeds because it got them off," no, I haven't seen anyone play those sorts of characters in quite a while.

But "souless and lacking conscience" is another descriptor for what players like to call "cold and hardened professional". wink.gif

Joker9125
My very first run another character paid me to help Him kill another character. My character would never kill in cold blood. He would however kill for some Nuyen( it would have to be alot more than 200 nuyen.gif ) or perhaps to get a power focus off of the carcus biggrin.gif !! At least my group seems to enjoy the occasional backstabbing because it adds an extra dimension of realism and danger to the game and it keeps Joe Millionair from flashing around his brand new force 6 power focus.
Bearclaw
What's wrong with a rating 6 stunball in a crowd. They'll all get better, right? biggrin.gif

I played in a one off game where we managed to destroy a decent bit of the world with the combination of a panzer, a chemical weapons dump and the jet stream smile.gif Yea, those were the days.

Anyway, I've never played a trully evil PC in SR, but I did in D&D. It was entertaining, but only for a few sessions. Once the ranger killed himself over the stuff we tricked him into, we all made new characters.
The Jake
I mentioned Mr. Darke as an example of a "bad guy" - player stupidity, carelessness, thoughtlessness, or lack of concern notwithstanding. I mean BAD GUY™ not just a bad person or periods of evilness.

Do you know what I mean?

I'm not trying to turn this into a morality play, just curious how many people have players who are seriously BAD DUDES.

- J.
Cray74
QUOTE (The Jake @ Dec 24 2003, 10:24 PM)
I'm not trying to turn this into a morality play, just curious how many people have players who are seriously BAD DUDES.

- J.

I was pointing out that, very often, PC shadowrunners come close to being Bad Dudes in the manner you seem to define Bad Dudes. What's unusual about PC runners, as far as Bad Dudes go, is that most SR players think of their psychotic criminals-for-hire as Good Guys, and thus you don't get the actual evil-for-evil's sake of Dr. Evil and Mr. Darke.

Like I said earlier, I haven't actually seen such evil-for-evil's sake sorts of PCs in quite a while. But it's a fine line between a typical runner and a Bad Dude.
Dr Komuso
We had a one-shot campaign a while back, lasted for maybe a year, where everyone was one of the big power players. We had Lung, Ryumyo, Teacdaire, and Mr Darke all as PC's (Along with a few custom made baddies).

Very interesting campaign, if a bit light on the dice. Couldn't do too much combat, doncha know? smile.gif. Basically ended with Teachdaire realizing he and the others had been playing into Mr. Darke's plans all along and going to wax him while the dragons and IE's sat to the side thinking that no mere human could have actually outmaneuvered them.

Then Mr. Darke gave Teachdaire the joker. Basically involves cutting a slit on opposite sides of the mouth, then casting an Agony spell on the victim so that when they scream.... well, you get the idea.

So yeah, it's safe to say someone was playing a bad guy spin.gif

snowRaven
Let's see...

Hanging two team members from a roof, blindfolded and with a plaque nailed to their chests - all because they beat him unconscious over a disagreement that had escalated into a fight (characters with Vindictive, Impulsive and Combat Monster have a tendency to go overboard when they get into arguments - don't get me wrong though, it was one of the victims who had these flaws...), slaughtering cops needlessly to avoid leaving witnesses (Invisibility spell + twin hand blades) - this was Sharpe, an ex-mafia gargoyle shaman.

Using squatters as cannon fodder, firing a LAW out of a cafe window hitting the breakfast-eating people with the backblast, flipping a coin to see if he would kill the team decker because the decker wanted to wait for the rest of the team before escaping (they were fleeing from a Queen spirit), killing a mother and her baby (well, to his defense they where ghouls...but non-threatening), cutting cyberware out of conscious people to sell it on - this was Adolph, an SMG toting dwarf wearing an old nazi helmet...

Putting aside 1,000,000 for two Chimera assassins against a former team member, in the event that he disappeared or died(regardless of circumstances) or if said team member ever tried to contact him again, summoning a fire spirit to incinerate two gangers who tried to steal his car - this was Will, a 16 year old Ork Rocker/Phoenix shaman.

Those are three of the worst characters I've seen in my campaigns, I think, though there's been others. No blood, toxics or insects (yet) though.
Kagetenshi
Squatters are cannon fodder.
Same with pedestrians.

~J
Sahandrian
Of course they are. Just get a few trolls and that giant slingshot catapult weapon from CC...
The Jake
I posted one of mine here:
http://invision.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=2375

He was a bad dude really and you kinda knew his fate from the beginning (like Harvey Keitel in Bad Lieutenant), but dammit he was played really well.

I'd like to play a bad dude at least once.

- J.

bwdemon
I always thought that shadowrunners were the bad guys. Good guys don't run around thieving and killing, right? Criminal organizations, black market dealings, sleazy corporate/national ops... bad guys all around.

Now if you mean "more 'bad' than the typical shadowrunner already has to be", then I may've crossed that line a couple times with organ- and cyber-legging operations. It all comes down to the game...
nezumi
Actually, in my experience the better question is, in how many games are the PCs 'better' than the NPCs? Bw is right, while the corpers arrange for hits, it's the shadowrunners who actually kill and steal and cause civilian casualties. While the toxic shamans destroy humans, they do it because they see a greater good in furthering nature or whatever it is they're doing. Shadowrunners just do it for cash. Insect spirits are protecting their species just like anyone else. I've never encountered an NPC who honestly thinks in his heart that he's doing something evil, or that he does it for evil's sake. He does it because he sees it as good in some way (granted, sometimes they realize it's good for him, but bad for someone else, but even so, he doesn't do it because he's screwing someone else over). I've very rarely seen a shadowrunner stop and say "But doing this is ethically wrong," and I've often seen them kill or destroy just because they can.
Tanka
In all honesty, I want to play Legato from Trigun. He'd make a really cool character.

Except for all the killing he so enjoys, that is. I know he'd be dead in no time.
Userlimit
QUOTE (northern lights @ Dec 24 2003, 06:40 AM)
what is the problem with having group conflict? is everyone here so blind that they all think that a group of 5 or 6 different people are always going to think alike?


well, its fine and good to a point. but sometimes it can go to far. i was playing in one game for about a year, and our decker and our sniper were constantly fighting becaue the sniper would purposely do things just to "stir the pot" a little at times, claiming creative character development when anyone got antsy.

the decker i suppose was causing too much trouble for the sniper, because towards the end of the game we were offered one favor a piece by a high level corp suit for cleaning up some drek for him. the suit asked us each privately what we wanted, and within reason he'd give it to us. i forget what i asked for, but the decker asked for a cranial deck. the sniper, knowing this, asked that while the decker was in surgery, just to put a cranial bomb in there with the deck, and to give him the detonator.

i'll always remember how devious that was of the sniper player, and really how amusing it was, but in the end it ruined the game a few sessions after the decker player found out about the situation.

p.s. snowRaven, those sound like awesome characters. at least to read about, if not exactly to play with. biggrin.gif
The Jake
I'm just suprised there aren't twisted runners who use their cash and downtime buying up 'snuff' BTLs or paying for underage prostitutes or homicidal psycho killers like Wayne Grow in 'Heat', etc. etc.

Heat is a good example. Robert De Niro and his crew are all bad guys. The difference between a guy like him and say Wayne Grow is that they have a code and do only what is necessary whereas someone like Wayne Grow is just sick and gets off on killing. I consider most 'runners by default like De Niro - bad dudes but with a code. I'm asking if people have played someone like Wayne Grow - someone who is a bad dude without any redeeming qualities whatsoever.

Not suggesting players have to play a sick individual or should but just curious if anyone has. I've had more than my share of psychopathic killers in my games regrettably (thats the issue you ahve when you play as a kid) but I think that was largely immaturity on our behalf at the time.

- J.
BitBasher
Bottom line in my opinion, there is no such thing as a good shadowrunner. There are only verying levels of bad. You are after all, by definition, a criminal.
nezumi
I've had characters who use drugs recreationally. I tend to stay away from BTLs because you can't interact with other people while using them, so it sort of limits roleplaying.
Phaeton
What BitBasher said---there is no black. No white. Only grey.
Fahr
what about anyone playing a straight up GOOD guy in SR?

I've had a player do that, it was hard to keep them involved in the game (a whole group might have been easier)

It is quite fun if it can be done, fighting the evil corporate empire without harming innocents, killing anyone, or generally doing anything "evil"... but then the motivation is not Shadorunning for profit but shadowrunning for a cause.

just something to think about...

-Mike R.

BitBasher
Unless you are playing a fantasy variant there can be no such thing as a real "good guy". That "evil" corp employs doctors, scientists, wageslaves, security and everything in between. Those are all innocent laborers, earning a living just like you or I. Runs out to damage a corp in any will have a financial impact for many many people. You will be hurting innocent people regardless of how good your intentions.

It IS all shades of gray. Only by running your world in a comic book white/black style and ignoring the actual ramifications of events could you accomplish that.
Friggas Ring
I play in a game with a bunch of weapon-toting psychopaths, so I decided to stir things up and play a guy with a soul. Actually, he's worse than that: he's out to save everyone. It's kinda hard to explain, but this is what it comes down to. When everyone else in the group kills whomever however they want, playing someone with a conscious and finding a reason for them to continually work with the psychos is damn difficult.

Perfect example: My character, Dan, was the magic support for the group. He never uses a gun and hardly ever uses magic that could hurt people. The moment Dan pulls out a gun and aims it at one of the people we were working with (under magic influence), the group prepares to lay waste to him.

Sadly, part of me was hoping they'd mow him down. I'd roll up a new character to put them all to shame.
Fahr
Friggas Ring was morein the lines of what I was tlaking about... obviously the world is grey, but playing a charechter who tries to be good (not saying he succeeds) can be very challenging and fun...

It is also much rarer in my experience to find players who want to play peopel like that.... which is why I asked smile.gif

I think it makes for much deeper roleplay if the charechters have a consiouse of some sort. (even a twisted one)...

-Mike r.
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