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simonw2000
I know the damage level for heart attacks is Deadly, but does anyone know the power?
Kagetenshi
It's automatic. If you really need power, it's 10^99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999D.

~J
Tanka
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
It's automatic. If you really need power, it's 10^99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999D.

~J

You missed a few...

...Thousand.

rotfl.gif
Kagetenshi
Ok, then, just tack a ! (Factorial) on after the Power. Problem solved smile.gif

~J
Tanka
Mmm... A number no computer could ever display without sucking up every resource available to man...

Could you imagine how long it would take to do that by PC, let alone by hand like in the old days?
Kagetenshi
It'd probably take days to just write out the largest number by hand.
When I get home I'm pulling out the other laptop, plugging this into Maple, and seeing how long it takes to get an answer.

~J
Zazen
That still leaves it open to being reduced by platelet factories or a trauma dampener nyahnyah.gif

It's just Deadly. Mark off 10 boxes.
Fortune
Keep in mind that people do recover from heart attacks on occasion. Hell, there are times when a heart attack doesn't even cause unconsciousness, let alone a 'Deadly Wound'.
Kagetenshi
Then we don't, in game terms, call it a heart attack. Maybe it was in medical terminology, but it didn't do what a heart attack does.

~J
Fortune
What exactly does a heart attack do then? You seem to be under the impression that heart attacks are always fatal, yet that is definitely not the case. As I said, they are not even always the cause for (in game terms) Deadly Stun.
Kagetenshi
A heart attack, in game terms, does D Physical. A heart attack, in real life, does a range of things from killing the person to making them steady themselves on a nearby wall for a few seconds while a feeling of weakness passes.

~J
Tanka
Remember, you aren't fully dead until you go over your Overflow. So the heart attack doing D isn't killing you... Yet.
Fortune
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
A heart attack, in game terms, does D Physical.

Which can be staged down.
Kagetenshi
Page reference?

~J
Fortune
Do you have a reference that says it can't be? Would it not be treated the same as any disease/toxin/malady, in that a person's Body has some bearing on resisting it? Is there any precedent in canon that would lead you to believe that a heart attack could not be resisted?
Kagetenshi
The fact that they don't give it a Power seems to suggest that. I don't have my books with me, but I'll check the wording again when I get back on Sunday unless someone else posts an excerpt.

~J
Tanka
I've seen a perfectly healthy guy (Say Body 5) die from a heart attack, and a guy who is a total slob and should have died (Body 2) survive. Sure, they could've gotten more successes, but in equal fairness, it's based on your heart and its ability to function anymore.
Kagetenshi
A "perfectly healthy guy" will be Body 3, maybe 4. An "exceptionally healthy guy" will be Body 5.

~J
Tanka
Meh, whatever, you know what I meant.

Either way, what should've happened is the slob should've died and the other guy should've survived, if going by Fortune's call (Which I wouldn't).
Fortune
QUOTE (tanka)
Either way, what should've happened is the slob should've died and the other guy should've survived, if going by Fortune's call (Which I wouldn't).

No, that's just the more likely outcome.

What happens if we go by Kage's rule is everyone dies when they have a heart attack. As such, there is no such thing as a 'mild heart attack', as differentiated from something like a 'massive heart attack', as they are all considered 'instant death'.
Tanka
D damage is not instant death. Overflow is instant death. There's a huge difference in taking D physical and taking D + your Body in boxes.
Kagetenshi
Then I differentiate between cardiac arrest (which there is no game effect for that I remember) and heart attacks. If it's a minor heart attack, it was cardiac arrest.
This is all just putting labels on stuff.

~J
Fortune
Without immediate and proper medical attention, what happens when someone takes a 'D' wound? How long does Joe Average (Body 3) have before he dies (from overflow) after sustaining that 'D' wound from a heart attack?
Tanka
Exactly. How soon does somebody have to react to adminster CPR to the victim? Not too long. (My mom's a nurse. I asked her. She's more right than you are. nyahnyah.gif)
Fortune
QUOTE (tanka)
Exactly. How soon does somebody have to react to adminster CPR to the victim? Not too long. (My mom's a nurse. I asked her. She's more right than you are. nyahnyah.gif)

I'm not sure I understand your response. You make it sound as if you agree that everyone would die within 3 minutes or so after having suffered a heart attack, if proper attention is not received. This is definitely not the case.

Seeing as my father and grandfather both died from heart attacks, and I have had 2 myself (and am not quite dead yet!), I do have some passing familiarity with this subject. smile.gif

Oh, and my mother was a nurse too. nyahnyah.gif
Tanka
Eh, there's that. Which is why I'd call for a special ruling in the case of a heart attack.
Fortune
I'd assign a Power level to it (admittedly a high one!), and then have the victim make a Body test to try to stage it down. Seems to coincide with the rest of the Shadowrun system.
Toa
The rules for heart attacks (or somewhat like it) can be found with the description of the synthacardium in Man & Machine. wink.gif
Fortune
According to those rules, a character with a Synthocardium receives an extra dice per augmentation level 'to resist cardiac and circulatory-based conditions or ailments'. How is that possible unless there actually is a test in the first place?
Aramus
You can resist heart attack 'cause Synthacardium give you +2 die on heart resistance test so there a rule somewhere ...

Edit : Damn, Fortune ! nyahnyah.gif
gknoy
QUOTE (Fortune)
Without immediate and proper medical attention, what happens when someone takes a 'D' wound? How long does Joe Average (Body 3) have before he dies (from overflow) after sustaining that 'D' wound from a heart attack?

As Fortune said, not all heart attacks are fatal -- and not all result in cardiac arrest. I know several people have had heart attacks (my father and my best friend's, in fact) that were semi-minor ... on the other hand, my friend's dad qualifies (IMO) as a body 6 or 7, as he actually grew his own heart bypass ... smile.gif
leemur
I'd have to question resisting damage from a heart attack using Body.

Compare a fairly fit human with Body 4, versus a out of shape troll slob with Body 6. Realistically, the human is better off, but resisting damage, the troll gets the advantage. (Troll is +4 Body, right?)

Perhaps the best thing to do woul be to resist that kind of damage without the benefit of the troll's increased body Likewise for the other metatypes.




Fortune
Body is the only Attribute you could realistically roll for the test. That being said, I did consider the different Metatypes, and would probably do as you said and use the character's Body Attribute, unaugmented by race. Of course, all of that assumes that a PC heart attack will come up in my games, which isn't very likely. smile.gif
Zazen
QUOTE (Fortune)
Keep in mind that people do recover from heart attacks on occasion. Hell, there are times when a heart attack doesn't even cause unconsciousness, let alone a 'Deadly Wound'.

There are times that characters remain conscious after taking a deadly wound, too. I suspect that a shot of deadly damage is a good simulation.

Then again, I don't know much about heart attacks. I've got a couple questions since you do:

Can people survive them without any medical attention?
Do they pretty much always incapacitate (eventually)?
How long does it take to go "back to normal", i.e. feel as functional as you did before the attack?
Aramus
I think that Willpower is the best to use on heart attack test ... 'cause Will is like your inner force, a guy with higher "inner force" will be able to overcome most of his task (if he don't need supra-strenght or etc.) and with Will you have just the Dwarf and the albino one get a bonus that is ... fairly small. I think that a heart attack is like a drain (but this one is stun not physical) from a spell or conjuring and they are done with Will.

Maybe a heart attack can does stun damage and for each 2 boxes, you get 1 box of physical damage. So HeartD will give you 1 box less than serious P. And if you are DStun, for each 1 (or maybe 2?) minutes not stabilizied, you get 1 box of P. So, you have 5 (10?) minutes to live if you get DStun Heart Attack.
Kagetenshi
So someone who is morbidly obese (Infirm 5) but happens to be an Albino Gnome will rarely die of heart attacks? Or even just strong-willed?

~J
Aramus
Have you ever seen a morbidly obese albino gnome ?

If you want something better, just let BODY + WILL vs TN(Power of the HA). So now, even a Sammie will be able to have a good chance and a mage too and etc.
Fortune
QUOTE (Zazen)
There are times that characters remain conscious after taking a deadly wound, too. I suspect that a shot of deadly damage is a good simulation.

That's true, and I admitted as much. How long do they stay conscious before they die though?
QUOTE
Can people survive them without any medical attention?

I did! I didn't see a doctor for my first one till almost a week afterwards.
QUOTE
Do they pretty much always incapacitate (eventually)?

Not really. It depends on the severity of the attack, and the patient's ability to recover.
QUOTE
How long does it take to go "back to normal", i.e. feel as functional as you did before the attack?

I think that's a very individual thing. Some people never get back to where they previously were, whereas others shake it off pretty quickly.
QUOTE (Aramus)
I think that Willpower is the best to use on heart attack test

I have sweet F. A. in the way of willpower. It's probably my lowest Attribute. My father had quite a bit of self-discipline and willpower, and it didn't help him.
nezumi
QUOTE (leemur)
Compare a fairly fit human with Body 4, versus a out of shape troll slob with Body 6. Realistically, the human is better off, but resisting damage, the troll gets the advantage. (Troll is +4 Body, right?)

For the unfit troll here, the TN would increase. It makes sense, the chance and severity of a heart attack is based off of how clogged up it is already.

It also seems like a heart attack can have different damage levels. Cardiac arrest is D, but it would have a managable power (in the 4-8 range), since people don't just fall flat dead from them.

I'd agree it should be body. Body is based off of how healthy you are. Someone who excercises a lot has a high body and will resist this easier. I'd like to see someone sit there and 'will' their heart to start or stop. The old mages who sit and read books all day are more likely to die from heart attacks from the grizzled war vets who still run 10 miles a day.
Sahandrian
It is possible to manage your pulse rate through will. It's called auto-hypnosis.
Sigfried McWild
I'm not usre if it's auto hypnosis but I know professional apnea divers can slow down their heart beat to once every 5-10 seconds.
Zazen
Well it sounds like heart attacks are pretty varied things. In a game though, the only time I could see it occuring is when something severe happens to really kill your ass. Any test I'd roll would be to see if that damage happens in the first place.
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