"Barret Model 121 9000
(Silencer)
(Smartgun)
Low Light 100
Thermographic 100
(Folding Bipod)
Advanced Safety System (Biometric) 600
Imaging Scope 300
Vision Magnification 100
Smartlink 500
Flare Compensation 100
Easy Breakdown, Powered 9200
Extream Environment Mod 1 100
Skinlink 50
Improved Range Finder 1000
Plasteel Components 1 40500
Total Cost: 61650"

Dear Santa, I have been a very good boy this year. Please can I have the one of these for Christmas?

Needs an underbarrel grenade launcher.

another viable character concept would be a medic/doctor. or a mechanic, but i guess that probably goes with the rigger territory.

No, do you have anything to back up that more then 50% have them? Only real definite thing we have is something along the lines of 'cyber eyes are by far the most popular cyberware'.

Which indicates that if someone has cyberware, it is likely to be cybereyes, but nothing says the likelyhood of Joe Wageslave having cyberware at all. It is just one of those, there are enough people that are going to dislike/distrust cyberware to not get it, there are going to be enough people who can't really spare the extra money for such a luxery (Even if it is quite cheap, it is still something they don't need) and yet aren't hobos, and plenty of people who just aren't bothered to get it. I mean, ok, lets assume it is about 50%, that still doesn't make it suspicious to not have them. Heck, even at 75% it wouldn't be.



Sounds like fun. Maybe I'll work on that once done with my mundane Magician. (Who may require a bit of coercion of the GM)

The unaugmented mundane in my group is a mechanic/face.

I didn't make any such claim.

I know that. You asked for proof I asked for disproof. My point is we really don't know the exact % of people that have cybereyes, but it isn't enough that those without cyberware are going to be considered suspicious.

Your claim was ...



Since you seemed so positive, I figured you could at least back up your claim.

The general public doesn't matter one iota when it comes to player character design. They're the epitome of the term "outlier." They do not fit into any averages or norms.

Every single sample character listed in this thread that I've seen would have their asses handed to them. The first serious physical conflict they run into eats up their Edge and potentially leaves them making Addiction Tests. Worse, you get one-trick ponies like the sniper who are pretty much useless on most traditional runs as they take place inside a facility or while constantly moving. Mechanics and armorers are the domain of contacts and NPCs unless you're dealing with a specialty run. At best you can have a Face, but he'll get his ass handed to him against anyone really worth having a Face to deal with.

Everything an unaugmented mundane can do, a traditional character can do phenomenally better. As previously mentioned, yes, you can create one and have a blast playing one. But that doesn't make him a competitive character. It doesn't make him a good character. It just makes him a character you purposely crippled to "prove a point." Considering just how many shadowrunners there are, how competitive a market it is, and how people are paying top dollar for their services, it's very unrealistic to see someone like that getting much work when there's far more qualified runners available.

In a manner of speaking yes. But keep in mind that the 100k nuyen that they had to shell out for all their 'ware is a good chunk of BP or Karma that the unaugmented character can use on other things. Also keep in mind that it is always possible to add 'ware to these characters after creation.

And you know, honestly with all the cyberware you could get, I think at best you'd increase the sniper's DP from 21 to 23 for sniping. You could also add in some IP and perception bonuses, but that would be about the limit.

Also, I really don't see how my sniper is useless, given that she has a good 10 dice in about a dozen skills.

Oh, and one thing the unaugmented character can do that an augmented can? Walk through a MAD scanner. Your average cybered runner will set off every alarm in the building trying to walk past one with his body being about 85% metal at that point.

So yeah, maybe in the super twink games in which everyone runs around with panther cannons and the GM never requires characters to be inconspicious or able to get past security or anything, the unaugmented characters wouldn't have a chance. But in a somewhat more realistic game where the runners have to move unnoticed and do something besides bring the largest DP to the firefight, they can do extremely well.

One final remark. We never said that augmenting these character's couldn't improve them, it can. But what is 23 dice compared to 21? An extra 2/3 a hit on average, with average expected hits being 7 v 7.66? Better, sure. phenomenally better? I don't think so.

A) Yes, 100,000 nuyen costs BP/Karma. Yes, that's BP/Karma that a Sleeping Skinjob can use elsewhere. No, that doesn't make his BP/Karma expenditure better than what he could have done with 100,000 nuyen. Quick example: Agility 5 to Agility 6 costs 18 Karma. That's 45,000 nuyen. That's Muscle Toner 4 (Agility 5 to Agility 9) with 13,000 nuyen leftover. You got +1 dice. I got +4 dice and cash to get God knows what else. You lose. Not only will my guy have more dice to throw, but he'll have more toys and tricks to use with those extra dice.

B) Your sniper is useless due to the lack of an initiative boost. That's the singlest biggest obstacle for any Sleeping Skinjob because, sadly, Initiative = God in Shadowrun. You can have a thousand dice, but it's not going to do you a lick of good if you can't use them as often as your opponents can, and being a Sleepign Skinjob it's highly doubtful you'll even with a Surprise Test against any opponent worth being surprised by. Doubly so when you have to wait 3-4 passes before you even get another move. On any combat-intensive run, that's going to be the case unless you burn yourself out on drugs (since you'll have burned out your Edge long ago).

C) You also act like this MAD scanner thing is 1) somehow truly detrimental or 2) affects awakened characters in the slightest. A dedicated mage can do everything a mundane can do with just as much ease simply by dropping any spells they have running and/or deactivating their foci long enough to get past the same obstacles. And yes, oh no, that cybered character might set off a MAD scanner. The horror! What exactly is the reprecussion here again? And what's stopping them from disabling the scanner completely even if it truly is an obstacle?

D) Again, there aren't just two types of characters in the game. It's not useless Sleeping Skinjob vs. OMFG HE HAS CYBEREYES HE IS A TWINK!!!!!. Can you formulate any kind of solid argument that doesn't revolve around that level of Stupid™?

As Doc pointed out, those tradeoffs are minimal. Besides which, while 'ware is expensive at chargen, it's even more expensive (and troublesome to find, let alone implant) after chargen.



Well, let's see. First of all, we could get Muscle Toner 2, which raises our Quickness to 9. We can also add a reflex recorder, adding one dice to all her firearm skills. We could also buy Restricted Gear and a suprathyroid, raising all our physical attributes by one. She has a smartlink in her main gun, but no way of using it, so we buy her cybereyes with Vision Mag 3, Image Link, Smartlink, and Vision Enhancement 3. Now, she's at 27 dice and takes no range penalties at all, *and* has extra dice on her Perception tests (essential for a sniper). And I'm just getting warmed up!

Yip-pee, now the decker with a Cranial Commlink will have his internal iPhone discovered! I don't know what kind of players you're used to, but most of mine are smart enough to buy licenses for their really illegal cyber, or have excuses for their quasi-legal ones ("I had early-onset osteoperosis, officer, so I had to get my bones enhanced.") Dude, the hardest thing to sneak past a MAD detector will be your two-meter-long gun; and without a sniper rifle, she's just not anything special, is she?

And, of course, you're leaving out magic. Magic doesn't get caught on metal detectors, either.

A) True, but refer to my previous argument about being able to add 'ware later. Sure you can add stuff via karma too, but you'll tend to accumulate faster then karma, though that varies with GMs.

B) Your right, IPs are exceedingly powerful in the game, each one allowing your character to be twice as effective. I never said, nor has anyone that unaugmented and augmented are going to be on exactly the same playing field. They can however still function, and reasonably well.

C) Yes, I do, because I'm not talking about setting off a MAD scanner when your busting into the warehouse with your missle launcher. I'm talking about setting it off while your at a border checkpoint with a dozen military types around you, or at the entrance to a AAA building which will get all their people on you, or by a random passing police drone which will get LS on you. Also, I'm fairly sure (though not 100% sure) That a mage can still be detected with reasonable ease even if he isn't 'flame on' at the moment. As for disabling the scanner? That's my point, I'm talking about a game in which it isn't 'blow shit up and call it a day.' You know, one which involves role playing as opposed to "I chuck my dice pool, it dies."

D) I never said we where, and I'm certainly not calling cybereyes twink, that's just.. what was it? Stupid™ on your part. I'm not even saying cyberware is twink, I don't think it is in the least. What I'm saying is that if your in a game where every character is twinked towards the sole purpose of combat, because combat is the only focus of the game, the playing field is going to be pushed in favour of cybered people more then a game in which other skills and the ability to not stand out like a troll in a dwarf city comes in handy.

Your average cybered character is never going to get past any security. Sure that's fine if the objective is to kill the security anyway, but it doesn't work out when your objective is to not be detected. You know, like by walking right past them because you show no obvious signs of being a threat.

E) I really don't care that augmented are going to generally be better. This wasn't a post saying "Augmented are all twinks" or "Mundane are more powerful then augmented." The original gist of the post was "Mundane unaugmented characters are playable, lets show some examples of what they can do without the help of cyber/magic."

F) No one said you had to play one of these characters, if you don't want to play a 'normal' guy, then don't, doesn't bother me, but I really don't care for you to jump in here and say 'OMFG U GUYZ R STUPID, MUNDANE CAN'T HOLD CANDLE TO THE BLARING AWESOMENESS THAT IS AN AUGMENTED CHARACTER' (yes, I know I left out an A)

G) Don't forget this is a game. Everyone enjoys it their own way. Maybe I -prefer- my character to be mildly challenged by things as opposed to being some combat monster with 89B/72I armor that can throw 365 dice at anything they want. Or you know, perhaps I want to Roleplay A character that has some problem with trading their body in for robot parts, but wasn't lucky enough to be awakened.

Actually yeah, she can use her smartlink thanks to the smartlink sensor enhancement she got for her scope, so she already has that bonus. She also has the bonus of vision mag in her scope, so that's also a wash. Oh, and lets not forget that she could always just buy some sunglasses that have a vision enhancement. Wow, that was hard, she got all those bonuses (And I'm just getting warmed up!)

As for the rifle, that would be the reason behind the plasteel replacement, and the power breakdown lets he carry it in a hidden compartment in a suitcase.

And yeah, extra fake sins with extra licences on them, that works wonders till they get found out, and even with permits and really really lame ass excuses (And you had to get titanium why?) security is still going to let someone so obviously decked out for combat into anywhere important (You have a permit for wired reflexes, dermal plating, a superthyroid gland, and other dangerous stuff? Who the hell are you?)

I'd just like to point out that I am well aware this character isn't going to be as powerful as a cybered version of her could be. I never argued that What I've said is that she is fairly good at what she does, and has certain advantages that heavily cybered people lack.

Doc will be here in a minute, but....

What's the big deal about setting off a MAD scanner? It's not a super-cyberware-detector-and-analyzer, you know. All they know is that you have non-obvious cyber, like maybe a pacemaker. Yeah, I can see the wrath of Ares coming down on an old guy with a cane, because he has a pacemaker.


See above. If you're playing your security as having magic eyes that immediately spot every last filling you have, then you're not going to get your mundane sniper past them, either.

I think the last time I heard something similar, it was in a Camarilla game. There is nothing cool about deliberately gimping your character for roleplay purposes. In fact, the exact opposite is true: you actually roleplay better when you have a character with dramatic highs and lows. You can keep your roleplay snobbery to yourself; I'd rather, you know, Have Actual Fun.

She has Vision Mag 1 in her scope. With cybereyes, she can get Vision Mag 3. And, you know, I'm looking through Arsenal, and I cannot find a "Smartlink sensor enhancement" for a scope anywhere. You got a page ref on that one?

[Edit]Just read the gun writeup. You didn't actually buy a smartlink enhancement, you appear to have paid for an external smartlink adapter. Which the gun already comes with.


And how are they going to know I have any of that? MAD sensors are not cyberware scanners. MAD sensors are those things at the airports, that go off if you've got buckles on your shoes. And I'd love to see your character get anywhere without a few good Fake SINs and decent licenses backing it up. As far as it goes, wired reflexes are less restricted than that gun of yours, and significantly less broken to boot. You're depending on a GM to not call you on the fact that your gun is overmodified, and probably will have serious bugs in practical use.

Oh, and I love how you assume even a cyberware scanner can pick up a suprathyroid. I'll explain this very carefully: You Cannot Detect Bioware Without a Lab Sample. So, yeah, I can see how the busy line in front of a corp would not only make everyone pee in a cup, but would whisk every sample off to a lab for detailed analysis, which could take hours.


Such as? I already showed you how to add six dice to her primary skill, without adding anything illegal that can be detected by even your omniscient MAD sensors. I could go further, if I wanted to get into Geneware and other advanced options, or if I wanted to combine a few adept abilities into the mix. Or maybe even both.

It doesn't surprise me that the pornomancer, being a super-specialist, still held onto a high enough dicepool to be quite persuasive, even if it is subpar compared to the ridiculous version. I've often found my most highly specialized non-combat characters tend to be the ones with the least amount of cyberware. Social tests notwithstanding, when you've gone into one area whole hog stat wise to begin with, there's really only so much further augmentation really takes your pools, so I tend to end up putting more nuyen into things such as lifestyle, contacts and material resources rather than dabble in 'ware unrelated to my specialty. On the other hand, cyberware is even better at bringing glaring weaknesses up to par than it is at making you into a combat monster; new players may find it counterintuitive, but if you're going to build a generalist character you're almost forced to dip heavily into augmentation. Attribute boosters and SkillWires are just too damn cost effective to pass up if you truly intend to cover as many bases as possible on your own.

Oh yeah, between Attribute boosters, dice pool boosters, and skillwires, you can have a tweaked-out sammie rolling more dice, for more skills, than the "generalist".

On the mundane vs. augmented debate that has popped up:
The mundane pornomancer would get eaten alive by the awakened/augmented version, but these characters aren't really there to be compared to augmented versions of themselves - they are put out there to see if it is possible to create playable (not optimal) mundane characters, who might be capable of surviving an average campaign. It depends a lot on the power level of the campaign, as well as the focus of the campaign, but a lot of the builds seem fairly viable.

Besides, the pornomancer is kind of the perfect storm considering the loads of stacking social modifiers out there. I've managed to sheet up ridiculous athletes and doctors before thanks to Augmentation's myriad gene therapies, synthacardium and Logic Test boosters, but even those guys have nothing on a tricked out social adept cruising through town in his shiny dikoted pimpmobile.

Cain already replied on the stuff I would have touched upon, so...


You mean the modifications you can't get without either cheating or wasting a quality to get? Which, as a side note, applies only to that mod even if you do get it. Of course you still have to explain that very large and very suspicious briefcase you're dragging around even if you do get it. And nevermind that if your Kung Fu Hyper-Vigilant Precogniative security team is going to stop every Tom, Dick, and Harry who has a pacemaker, chances are pretty fucking high they're going to stop some guy dragging a large briefcase through their checkpoints. Especially if they can't x-ray or otherwise scan the contents.

Oh, and we're also still ignoring the fact that nothing is stopping any other character from having exactly the same gear. The only difference being that they'll be more proficient with its use than you are.


Professional bodyguard? Current or even ex-military?


Actually, you have effectively argued that with your comments about traditional characters (by going the whole "maybe not in a twink game!" route with every other breathe).

What you seem to be missing is that people are saying you can have a Sleeping Skinjob in a game and be okay, but it's not only inappropriate from a roleplaying point of view (see my previous argument about shadowrunners being an in-demand commidity where no one is going to pick someone like that over a more qualified and professional character who can do the job even better for the same price) but also full of vulnerabilities and limitations that make them a liability on a good number of runs.

All that said: Yay, you have an okay sniper. Even augmented or magical snipers are one-trick ponies who are pretty useless if they're not perched somewhere waiting to ambush someone. I dunno about you, but I rarely if ever have a character get hired for that kind of job. Thus all those mediocrely "awesome" skills are going to waste.

This was the point of the thread. I already knew that yes, if I made a cybered version of any of my doods up top, they would be super-awesome instead of just ''decent'' and undoubtedly wipe the floor with them. But the main point was ''playable, not optimal.'' Compared to other mundanes, I think they are quite good. But yeah, of course, cybered folks do stuff better. I never said they would be optimal. I tried to make them the best i could given the resources, but it was more or less an exercise. I mean, hey, I prefer playing cybered or magic characters, by far, but I've heard a lot of stories about folks with mundanes being a good standing in a campaign. Campaign type does have something to do with it, as well, I think.

So very much to reply to, but I don't care to get into a flame war over this. I fully understand that a cybered character will do and be better in general. I will personally always have 'ware of some kind on my characters, usually even on my mage types, because it is that good. But I really don't care for the point of this discussion. The challenege was to write up good non-augmented characters, not point out that they could be better with 'ware.

Now, I'm running off of personal memory from the rulebooks on this as I don't have access to them, but...

Vision Mag doesn't come in ratings when it appears in BBB along with glasses and contact lens and all of that. Could be wrong, but I'm fairly sure. And if I am wrong, just increase it to 3 and once again, it is a wash.

And if you look just a bit above Vision Mag and all that in the same list, you'll see the Smartlink enhancement that you have to put on glasses and such to make them work with a smartgun system.

Also, I didn't cheat with the gun at all. I took the quality to get the gun itself, every enhancement on the gun is rating 12 or below.

But like I said, I don't care to keep arguing with you. Augmented are better then unaugmented I know this, so stop repeating it as if I don't.

P.S. Not many runners are going to be able to pass off their ware as a pacemaker considering they tend to be in prime shape. And yeah, MAD doesn't detect what cyberware they have, just that they have it. That's what the other more spesilized sensors are for that they pass over you when you set off a MAD. I'm not saying it is impossible, I'm just saying an augmented person is likely to have more difficulty.

Yes, but you have to put them on glasses and such. You didn't list glasses or contacts on your gear list; and those would also show up on a MAD scanner. They might not be able to tell what it is without turning it on, but that's a lot easier than detecting a smartlink in cybereyes. AFAIK, you can't put smartlinks onto a normal scope. You also can't put vision mag onto a scope, either; you get what it comes with.


Your gun is overmodified. To go over 6 slots requires direct GM permission, and will generate bugs as he deems fit. You have at least 7 slots, even if you exclude all the vision modes you added. You didn't "cheat", but you certainly pushed the boundaries on this one.

A rating 6 cyber scanner, assuming a place even has one, will score an average of 2 successes against someone's cyber. That's just enough to detect a single alphaware implant, but not enough to determine its function. As long as it isn't a lethal cyberweapon, they're probably going to look at your license and be done with it.

As long as it doesn't immediately scan as a cybergun they might not even do that much if you're wearing Zoe's latest and walking tall. The scariest thing about a person with a bunch of 'ware is often the connections they used to get all of it.

I don't see any reason a scope can't have mods on it like anything else. What exactly does the scope even do on its own anyway, what does it 'come with'? As I recall from reading it's description it doesn't actually -do- anything, and thus don't see what it would be -except- for putting things like vision mag on it. And yeah, I didn't include glasses, but I included a ton of money that hadn't been spent, specifically for that sort of thing.

And I was fairly certain I kept it to 6 slots, but I may have gone over by mistake. Oh well, take out the skinlink and that problem is fixed.

It negates Range Penalties by it's rating, up to a max of 3. Basically, identical to Vision Mag.

And if we allow your gun to have all those vision mods you listed, it becomes even more overmodified. You've essentially added a full sensor package to the gun.

Actually no.



And in a scope those enchament don't take up any of the modding slots for the gun,but that scope does have an avalebility of 25R, so not availebul in chargen.

How do you get to 25R?

Imaging Scope 300
Vision Magnification 100
Smartlink 500
Flare Compensation 100

imaging scope is base 3.
Vision mag is +2
Smartlink is +4
Flare comp is +2

3+2+4+2=11 != 25

No earthly idea where you got 25 from.

3+4+6+2+4R+2=21R and i thought you also had Vision Enhancement(+4).

Figured you thought I'd included the low light and thermographic. No, those are on the gun's smart gun camera, not on the actual image scope. Good change they aren't allowed to stack, but I figured it was worth a shot. Actually I have no idea why I have low-light since she is an elf.... old habits die hard.

Then the gun is seriously overmodded as ugrades to gun camera take 1 slot per option.

Really? I missed that. I thought the gun camera cost a slot, and then you used up the camera's slots to put in camera upgrades. Would be stupid otherwise as it would take your entire gun to run the same things your glasses can.

Fixed.