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ElFenrir
So, generally, uncybered mundanes are quite a bit behind their magical or cybered(or both) bretheren. The latter have more tricks, and generally more of everything. It's been discussed fairly often around here.

But I still wasn't convinced that uncybered mundanes would always be left in the dust. So I set out to make a few samples that, IMO, I think could at the very least not be a detriment to the party, or even hang with their ''better'' mates.

I did use the Karmagen. The Karmagen is excellent for these types, giving them that little bit of the edge they need(mainly, uncybered mundanes should indeed have a solid attribute and skill base, since they don't have much else.) This isn't a discussion of ''of course they are better in Karmagen'', but since our table uses it now, and it's excellent for these types(and Technomancers), I wanted to use it.

One thing these guys have is that if they leave behind their weapons, they are totally legal. Of course, a mundane non-cyber might have a truckload of illegal demolitions and guns at their house...but if they're locked up, they can travel through that airport gate without a problem.

From a chargen standpoint, the money saved on all of the other stuff can be used on plenty of toys, lifestyle, or just spent as karma for more skills and goodies.

The three characters are an ork gunbunny/tankish type, an elf close-combat type(with some ranged), and a more detective-type.

I utilized things like Positive Qualities heavily; things to give them a natural edge. Speaking of Edge...that's another thing I utilized heavily. It will be a great boon to the combat types in particular; by letting them get extra passes when it looks like they might need them-the combat types biggest weakness is lack of extra passes. Edge is great anyway; it goes doubly for these guys.

First up, we have our tanky ork gunbunny.

[ Spoiler ]


Ok, so Max does pretty damn well for a mundane human. His Initative is strong, and his Edge can buy him another pass. With a set of contacts with a smartlink, he throws 14 dice with his specialities(13 with Shotguns), which ain't bad at all. He's sturdy as hell, his 6 strength gives him a point of recoil(which he can get more of on the guns). He also does a pretty nice job building and fixing them(9 dice.) He's got social skills to see him through and he's not too bad in the Urban Stealth department with 10 dice. He's going to be rather hard to hurt for a mundane; his 7 reaction and Athletics give him a hell of a defense pool, and then there is the 8 Body and any armor to deal with. His Willpower is average, but a stunbolt can take out a heavily cybered sam just as easily.

Not bad for a mundane Ork.

Now, for some pointy-ears:

[ Spoiler ]


Well, this guy is pretty painful as well. Unarmed with his hardliners, he hits for 6P damage, and throws 14 dice(15 when he's kicking you) to do it. With his No-Dachi, he throws 17 dice total. +2 Reach, +1 Personalized Grip. Yeah, a mundane guy who can kick you with 15 dice or sword you with 17. He's dangerous. His 5 Body grants him an above-average damage pool and lets him wear good armor; and like our friend Maxwell he can dodge pretty damn well, too. Again, good Edge, can buy more passes, and with his nice Infiltration score[13 dice Urban], he can utilize his Carromeleg bonus and kick them for 17 dice from surprise, and we know how surprises go; Riposte is awesome with his high Blocking skill, as he can turn the attack around; Set Up and Finishing Blow are killers. He's also no slouch socially either, with a 5 Charisma.

Finally, we have our older fellow-a human investigator whom I was kind of inspired by Lennie Briscoe of Law and Order for.

[ Spoiler ]


Well, this guy isn't quite as robust or dangerous toe to toe as the top two, but being a 45 year old mundane human, with a smartlinked pair of glasses he still throws 11 dice to shoot you with his revolver, or 10 with a shotgun, so he's nothing to laugh at. Subdual combat gets him 8 dice if he needs to throw down, so he's not a chump. His place isn't in the front lines, however; it's utilizing his amazing Perception(with audio/visual enhancements, he throws a stupid amount of dice to notice things-to be precise, he throws 17 dice to notice things visually, 15 audio, and 12 for everything else. His Shadowing skill is awesome(12 dice to tail someone), and he's stealthy. He's got enough Data Search and Computer skill that he can utilize a commlink and programs to track people well, and he's got a nice pile of contacts, though they aren't the most connected bunch. If this guy wants to find you, he probably can. He brings plenty to the table in all of those things, as well as his large pool of knowledge skills.

So yeah, three uncybered mundane samples. Sure, if they WERE cybered or magical, they would be better. The gunslinger would be even more deadly, the elf would be death on two legs, and the investigator could find the needle in a haystack in about twelve seconds. But as they are, they are still, IMO; very viable, if not rather scary in some ways, characters.

I'd also like to encourage others, if they have ideas, to post 'em up here, for those folks who might like this type. Honestly, I am more of a cyber or magic fan. But I still think there is a place for these folks, and they won't be useless to the group. The only guidelines:

Must be a mundane/non cybered/non Technomancer.

Metavariants are allowed-but nothing with a Magic attribute; so no pixies, vampires or shapeshifters. A mundane, non magical Hobgoblin is fine. [I know, you can technically be a pixie without any Magican qualities, but I'd like to leave this totally mundane.]

While I won't forbid Changelings as they can be dead mundane...I think they kind of go against the spirit of this. I like Changelings a lot, I think they are cool, but some of their stuff is sorta doable by cyber(claws, fangs, Kid Stealth legs, venom spit, etc.)

Perhaps if we get enough of these we can even donate them to the Sample Character thread.
Ancient History
One of the Jackpoint crew is an unaugmented, non-magician, non-technomancer human.
psychophipps
My non-augmented human (barring his flare comp and level damper) has been quite an asset to our group so far. The fact that he suffers from AR Vertigo hasn't affected him at all what with the judicious use of laser sights and the "Aiming is a free action" maneuver I bought for him.
Karaden
I fully believe that non-augmented characters can be quite powerful. In fact, I invite you to take a look at the second post in http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...t=0&start=0
Look at the spoilers under Keir Lyle and Tayler.

Both are completely non-magic non-augmented characters, and both are amazingly only 200 BP. Now, I admit they aren't going to be impressing any prime runners, but they are each rather good at what they do, which I personally feel is very impressive for my little guys. The other three minions are all 200BP and I think demonstrate well the 'group of specialists beats out generalists' theory. Of course this is about non-augmented non-magic characters. It definitely has my interest and I'll see what I can do with it. Maybe make a few characters and post what I come up with later.
AngelisStorm
Aren't unaugmented faces pretty viable?

There are the pherimone enhancers in the base book, and of course all the magical tricks that you can put on an adept.

But really, if your not trying to destroy the world, there aren't alot of bonuses you can get to social skills (I think). Good Cha, good skills, and the little emoticon toy/program, and then unless your GM throws a maxed out social adept at you, your going to be pretty much the top of your game. Right?
ElFenrir
Karaden: Nice dudes there. Lower-powered game, but for being that few BP with no extras that ain't bad at all.

Unaugmented faces, IMO, are probably generally considered one of the more viable options. With high Charisma, social skills, and those Emotion toys(hey, they aren't cyber; gear helping is perfectly viable), they can indeed be really good. Hackers, generally, are considered to be the ''best'' when it comes to completely unaugmented builds.

Combat folks, though, are usually seen as sort of problematic. I think I proved up there, though, you can make some scary combatants with no augmentations whatsoever. Between the use of Edge to raise Initiative Passes-and if you are really hard-pressed-something like Jazz, you can make some folks damn deadly. (Again, the IPs are what is usually seen as the tough part for them. Getting high dice pools, as you can see, is not a problem.) Granted, if I were to send one of the guys up there against another guy I had played before(an elf sam, pretty heavy cyber), they might be in for some challenge...but it wouldn't be impossible. For example, Sariel up there can do some serious damage with his bare hands...with his Tailing, Infiltration and high Reaction he has a good chance of getting a Surprise attack off and beating the daylights out of someone. Even in face to face, both of those guys roll 12 dice for Initiative, and have a fair shot of going early in a combat.

Really, any sort of build is viable, but the unaugmented/unawakened just have to make up for a few things.

Oh yeah...and laser sights/aiming is free...hell, about as good as a Smartlink.

AH: Which member is it? I sorta remember the team but I don't recall which one is the normal.
Cain
QUOTE
Aren't unaugmented faces pretty viable?

Not really. There are so many ways of pumping up your social dice, you won't be too bad; but in comparison to someone who's properly augmented, you won't even be in the running. I mean, emotoys are nice, but they're so cheap that everyone should have them. I believe the new pornomancer has 51 dice for Seduction tests; no one who's unaugmented could hope to come close. Even against more sane opposition, they have access to all the same tricks you do, plus adept powers, Increase Charisma spells, SURGE abilities, and implants and geneware. You'll be hard-pressed to compete.
Karaden
Cain brings up a point. I'm guessing we aren't talking any weird metavariants or SURGEd characters. That would somewhat defeat the point of these guys being 'normal' as compared to all the other hopped up types.

Hackers being one of the best for unaugmented? Are you crazy? Unagumented means no VR, which means no more then 1 IP and losing quite a few bonus dice. Not to mention all the hacking ware out there (Math SPU, Necortical Nanites, and others that I'm sure I'm forgetting)

Well, ok, I take back my original statement of 'are you crazy?' It isn't all that much worse then the disadvantage of what others would have. The big thing though, is that a hackers most illegal piece of equipment is his commlink. You aren't going to get stopped at airport security because you have a math SPU. That kinda defeats the purpose of no cyberware, being that you can go in incognito very easily.

Anyway, still working out some ideas for how to really kick it up a notch with non-augmented mundanes.
Glyph
Mundanes are far, far from optimal, but they are certainly playable. They may not be as good as their awakened or augmented counterparts, but they can still get their dice pools up to the teens, to where they can contribute to a team.

Let's look at a variant of one of Cain's creations, Mr. Lucky. Is a mundane Mr. Lucky playable? He's certainly not as good as the augmented version, but I could still see him surviving - he might have to use that Edge more. smile.gif

[ Spoiler ]


And let's look at mine, the infamous pornomancer. Bah, seems almost balanced now wink.gif :

[ Spoiler ]
ArkonC
QUOTE (Karaden @ Oct 6 2008, 02:56 AM) *
Hackers being one of the best for unaugmented? Are you crazy? Unagumented means no VR, which means no more then 1 IP and losing quite a few bonus dice. Not to mention all the hacking ware out there (Math SPU, Necortical Nanites, and others that I'm sure I'm forgetting)

Are we forgetting about trodes?
Hackers are actually more viable than combat characters because hackers can get extra IPs without magic/resonance/ware...
Karaden
QUOTE (ArkonC @ Oct 5 2008, 09:34 PM) *
Are we forgetting about trodes?
Hackers are actually more viable than combat characters because hackers can get extra IPs without magic/resonance/ware...


Yeah, totally forgot about trodes letting you run cold VR.

Anyway, my entry for unmodified combat monster mundane, enjoy.

[ Spoiler ]


Edit: Before anyone says it I know that boxing likely shouldn't stack with the kick manuver, but I figure it is about knowing weak spots and controlling your body and such as it is directly about throwing a punch. Take it out, lower his DV by 1, and give him something else handy if you/your GM would be hung up on this point.
Muspellsheimr
QUOTE (Karaden @ Oct 5 2008, 07:50 PM) *
Yeah, totally forgot about trodes letting you run cold VR.

I run Hot with my trodes.


Are unaugmented mundanes viable? Depends on the game. In some cases, yes, they can get away with it, & even be a benefit. In other games, particularly higher-powered ones, they are at minimum severely outclassed.
Platinum Dragon
QUOTE (ArkonC @ Oct 6 2008, 12:34 PM) *
Are we forgetting about trodes?
Hackers are actually more viable than combat characters because hackers can get extra IPs without magic/resonance/ware...


Yeah, you don't need cybergear to go into VR. A mundane rigger would actually be pretty scary.
Coldan
Trodes + SimSense Modul modificated for Hot-Sim gives you also all advantages of Hot VR.

I'm playing an unargumented hacker and it's really nice. Ok, not as good as an argumented hacker, but very close and my GM is happy, as I'm not able to hack every node in the sprawl. Ok, I can only get 14 dices and only 4 Ini Passes and not 16 dices and 5 Ini Passes, but who cares?
Cain
QUOTE (Platinum Dragon @ Oct 5 2008, 07:01 PM) *
Yeah, you don't need cybergear to go into VR. A mundane rigger would actually be pretty scary.

An unagumented rigger wouldn't be nearly as effective. The Control rig is actually pretty powerful. A pure drone rigger might be all right, so long as he never planned on jumping into a drone. You're right that a decker might be all right as an unaugmented mundane, but not a rigger.
Tarantula
I'm surprised there was no decker/rigger types up there. They're probably the most balanced for useful while still remaining mundane.
Cardul
What about an explosive expert type character? They do not need cyberware, just stuff that goes boom, and skills to handle it. Give them some ranged weapons skills, and Contact Lens Smartlink, and they are good to go.

Snipers, as well, since almost everything they need can be built into the scope, or into their gear.
Glyph
Here's a combat decker from me. Decent at hacking, and relatively good in combat for a support character. His high Edge will help him with both roles.

[ Spoiler ]
Jaid
QUOTE (Cain @ Oct 5 2008, 11:35 PM) *
An unagumented rigger wouldn't be nearly as effective. The Control rig is actually pretty powerful. A pure drone rigger might be all right, so long as he never planned on jumping into a drone. You're right that a decker might be all right as an unaugmented mundane, but not a rigger.

i'll agree that an unaugmented rigger is not as effective as an augmented rigger, but i'm going to have to disagree that it isn't viable. the +2 to all vehicle tests is nice, but you can still get a very respectable dicepool in hot VR. if nothing else, codeslinger(control device) can make up for the control rig, and let's not forget the most ridiculous vehicle skill specialisation ever, "remote operation" (no joke, you can actually specialise in remote operation for several vehicle types, [edit] and the only reason it isn't all is because of exotic vehicles [/edit] and if using a command program to remote control vehicles doesn't count as remote operation, i can't imagine what does). even if you rig (depending on if your GM interprets the rules for control rigs to mean it just gives a bonus to rigging, or that it actually allows you to rig in the first place and then also gives you a bonus to rigging) you can be a reasonably strong rigger. just not quite as awesome as the fully-augmented rigger, is all.
Cain
QUOTE (Jaid @ Oct 5 2008, 11:45 PM) *
i'll agree that an unaugmented rigger is not as effective as an augmented rigger, but i'm going to have to disagree that it isn't viable. the +2 to all vehicle tests is nice, but you can still get a very respectable dicepool in hot VR. if nothing else, codeslinger(control device) can make up for the control rig, and let's not forget the most ridiculous vehicle skill specialisation ever, "remote operation" (no joke, you can actually specialise in remote operation for several vehicle types, [edit] and the only reason it isn't all is because of exotic vehicles [/edit] and if using a command program to remote control vehicles doesn't count as remote operation, i can't imagine what does). even if you rig (depending on if your GM interprets the rules for control rigs to mean it just gives a bonus to rigging, or that it actually allows you to rig in the first place and then also gives you a bonus to rigging) you can be a reasonably strong rigger. just not quite as awesome as the fully-augmented rigger, is all.

"Viable" and "effective" are two different things. Certainly, though, you can create a rigger with a respectable dice pool without augmentation; but that control rig bonus is certainly nice, considering that it would come on top of everything else you mentioned. I'd put the uncybered rigger at reasonably strong as well; but I'd say he's considerably less awesome than the fully-augmented rigger.
ElFenrir
QUOTE (Karaden @ Oct 5 2008, 10:50 PM) *
Yeah, totally forgot about trodes letting you run cold VR.

Anyway, my entry for unmodified combat monster mundane, enjoy.

*snip*



Nice looking, and definitely big...but a problem. You are still only allowed to max 1 attribute under karmagen. You've actually...managed to go over his allowed Karma for Attributes(375+80=455.) That's a first time I've seen that happen. grinbig.gif

He's got maxes in...a lot of them. On the bright side, knocking Str to 9 won't do anything to his DV(and free up Karma), knocking Reaction to 5(still good), Will to 5(loses one die to roll but no damage track), 1 from Agility(he rolls less for combat, but he can make up for it with his toughness). I might leave the Body on him since his concept seems more tank-like. Special attributes aren't counted toward the ''max-maximum'', so you could still leave Edge at 6(but it is, as far as I know, counted toward the attribute max in Karmagen, as in 1/2 Karma+twice the Racial Cost BP.) You spent 510 Karma on the guy here, so it's 55 extra...but that will be fixed after you drop all the other maxes by 1 except for the one.

He will have a bunch of Karma left-which you could use to up his Charisma and his Logic, making his Demolitions a damn sight better.

In my house rules, you'd only be allowed to stack 2 of those Martial Arts DVs(I know other folks use that too-while we run a loose and easy game with many rules...for some reason I just wanted to cap this particular thing), BUT this is a forum thing and that rule isn't on the table, so I can let that slide. wink.gif Even under our table's house rules, though, he'd still hit for a sweet 7S(8 with Hardliners and he could do physical if he wanted), so he'd certainly be no slouch still.

I hope you don't think I'm taking the piss out of you because I LIKE the concept alot, just had to point out some number problems with him. But again, on the bright side, you will have close to a hundred Karma freed up for him to make other improvements, making him, really, even better.

Next up, Glyph's Ork Combat Decker:

That's quite impressive, too. I like to see how we have some Karmagen and some BP natural samples.

Good stat spread, nice skill spread, everything is covered, and in combat or the matrix he is no joke. Overall, can't say anything bad about him. With 10(+2 reach) dice with a Mono Whip and 10(12 linked) with Pistols, he's got things covered in the meat world, and with trodes he can run in the wireless world just fine.

Mr Lucky I know all about. He certainly works under this concept.

A mundane Pornomancer. Yeah, really, even with 25+ dice, they seem balanced compared to the non mundane builds. But it's still impressive to see a mundane able to get that high. biggrin.gif

I actually have a Sniper in the making, with the Sniper being mentioned. I'll be back with them in a bit after I type them up. smile.gif
Stahlseele
the one thing that i cvan see being the big advantage for unaugmented characters is, that they are really the ultimate swiss army tool . . the spent no essence on anything, they spent money only on external stuff that they can switch out on a basis of some hours or days, if they are rounded out skills and attribute-wise, there's nothing aside from magic a mundane can not do . . AND if you wanna you can STILL specialize him in game and get him some internal goodies too . .
Karaden
Ah, well first off it never says under karma gen anything about only being able to max out a single attribute.

As for the edge thing, that was compleatly misreading the 'characters start out with 6 essence' as 'characters start out with 6 edge' which I thought was really weird but I reread it like 6 times and it kept coming up edge (Was very late)

Ok, wow, it really was late, I missed the only 1 maxed attribute completely. So yeah, drop everything except body and you free up a ton of karma, drop edge (Because I didn't pay points for it) or raise it with the freed up karma. If your limiting the number of styles that stack, boxing and kickboxing both allow for +2 DV which gives you +4 overall. You'd have to cut out some of his manuvers, but still very doable. Reason I didn't give him the gloves is because he uses the kick manuver most of the time, which wouldn't stack. Could keep them around for when he is just punching though, but the overall idea of this character was that he could go anywhere without risking run-ins with security. You know, beyond him being a troll.
Fortune
QUOTE (Karaden @ Oct 6 2008, 10:57 PM) *
Reason I didn't give him the gloves is because he uses the kick manuver most of the time, which wouldn't stack.


I see no reason why you couldn't give him steel (or whatever) shanked boots which grant the same effect as Hardliners.
ElFenrir
Yeah, we use steel-shanked boots like that, same price. The elf I made has 'em. smile.gif

Oh, as for style stacking, it's just a personal houserule that you can't stack more than +2 DV. Not really styles that stack; if you want to, say, stack Boxing DV+1 and Karate DV+1 you can; but no more than +2 DV. (I actually got the houserule from here...I forget who suggested it.)

I MIGHT even open it up a bit, and try ruling that you CAN stack more than +2...but not at chargen. You'd have to find a master or someone to teach you the little nuances of hit-focusing and knowing where to hit, and then when you pick up another level of a style(say you have kickboxing +2, and you find an old champion boxer that teaches you how to punch better or something, and you pay the karma to get Boxing at level 1. Then you could get an extra DV.)

Again, those are just my table rules, but you don't have to follow my houserules for this exercise. By RAW, you can stack DV until you run out of DV to stack, so your guy is perfectly legit. biggrin.gif While no one at our table abused it, something just didn't sit right with me with it, that's all. If you do follow them, though-you could still take that pile of martial arts and all the manuevers; you'd just have to pick different bonuses(say, +2 DV from boxing, +1 Block from Karate, +1 Knockdown from Tae Kwan Do.) I don't limit the amount of styles someone can know(if someone wants to take 35 BP worth of martial arts, they can), just the DV bonus that can stack.

But it's a good character, and definitely good for being a heavy-hitter when you need to also be legal.
Karaden
A slight revision to my original character, with a very slight varriant that makes him an elf.

[ Spoiler ]


And here I've made roughly the same character as an elf. Much less conspicous and thus all the more frightening.

[ Spoiler ]


So, what all has changed? DV has dropped from 13 to 11, armor has dropped from 23/18 to 13/12, with body dropping from 10 to 5. Unarmed DP has increased from 14 to 16. Has also become far more intimidating (Somehow) and slightly better at Demolitions and Intimidation. Heavy weapons could defiently be switched out for a different skill as elf lacks the massive strength to carry those weapons around no trouble, though they could of course still be handled.

Overall only a little difference in direct combat ability, though a significant change in ability to take a hit. In echange the character is far less conspicious, being simply another elf and with the cha required to charm his/her way past any small obstical that might arise.
Glyph
Only two problems. First, the bonus is limited to your skill, so you can't have +7DV - you are stuck with +6DV max. And FFBA is the only armor that stacks with other armor - the armor jacket/bike racing armor will give you 8/7 armor, but not [8 + 4]/[6 + 7] armor.

So he would have "only" +6DV, 19 Ballistic, and 15 Impact armor. smile.gif
ElFenrir
Actually, Glyph, I didn't even know DV was equal to your skill; which is why I houseruled the +2DV. I didn't catch that part in the book...but come to think of it, I KIND of remember something along the lines of ''number of martial arts styles=your skill''. Which makes sense. And I forgot about the armor as well. To be honest, I never catch these things because I always have trouble keeping straight in my head what stacks and what doesn't. I always have to look at a book.

Looking at both of our elves(to compare them for fun), I can see one of the slight similarities, and some differences. Your guys has some better stats overall, but their Body, Agility, Reaction, Strength, and Intuition are all the same. Mine has the Lightning Reflexes, your guys has improvements in the other stats. My fellow went 5+2 on Blades AND Unarmed. Your fellow has one more maneuver and an extra die unarmed, mine has more social skills/pistols/couple other things, and your fellow opted for different skills like survival, demolitions, and first aid.

Your guy has more DV(9 if you stack +6, 10 with hardliners), my guy sits at 6(but if i stacked as well, he'd be one less), even though they could arm-wrestle each other at the table for days. In training, your guy maybe spent more time knowing where EXACTLY to hit and how hard, mine did learn some of that(6P damage for an uncybered person is harsh), but he also learned how to get the drop so they can't defend those attacks. You fella might be more up-front(though his infiltration skill can let him sneak and his good Reaction lets him get the drop)-I picked up the Tailing skill, the Reaction bonus and the Surprise bonus dice to make him, in a way, deadlier if he hides in a window on the first floor, and then greets someone with a flying kick. OR...with his Con skill...lure them into a sense of security...and them wham. I could even up that skill with a specialization.


Either way, if these two were on a team with a bunch of cybered runners, I could see them impressing even cybered folks. biggrin.gif

Ended up going out into the real world yesterday, so I didn't finish two more samples, but I'll have them up today.
Karaden
QUOTE (Glyph @ Oct 6 2008, 10:07 PM) *
Only two problems. First, the bonus is limited to your skill, so you can't have +7DV - you are stuck with +6DV max. And FFBA is the only armor that stacks with other armor - the armor jacket/bike racing armor will give you 8/7 armor, but not [8 + 4]/[6 + 7] armor.

So he would have "only" +6DV, 19 Ballistic, and 15 Impact armor. smile.gif


First, I've never seen that rule. It doesn't make sense anyway because what about the martial arts that are focused on the use of guns? Or even those that focus on weapons. You'd end up being maxed by unarmed skill + blade skill + club skill + various gun skills. So yeah, if you can quote it I'll believe you, in the mean time it isn't anywhere obvious under the martial arts section.

Edit: Man, my ability to read has really dropped lately. Your right, it would be limited to +6, though I could easily argue that his martial arts specialty should be allowed to raise that to +8. If not, well add in a level of High Pain Tolerance or whatever other 10 karma quality you would care for with him, not going to re-mod him for that.

And your right that the armor wouldn't stack like I had it doing. His ballistic should drop two and him impact three (Was using the old rules that you got half the value for stacking armor) So Ballistic only goes down to 21, not 19, and Impact only goes down to 18, not 15.

Still plenty good for taking a shot. I mean heck, he could soak a good chunk of a panther cannon -and- it would only be stun damage.

Edit:
Yeah, lots of similarities between them. I mean you have to expect it when creating the same race that is supposed to fill roughly the same function. Your guy backs up as a face, mine backs up as a few other things such as Heavy Weaponry.

Should be interesting to see how other characters of similar skill sets compare.
Fortune
I was going to give you the quote, but since you edited ...

QUOTE (Karaden @ Oct 7 2008, 10:29 PM) *
Your right, it would be limited to +6, though I could easily argue that his martial arts specialty should be allowed to raise that to +8.


Technically, Specialization is a Skill modifier (just like Vision Enhancement or a Smartlink), and is never considered part of the actual Skill level or rating.
Karaden
QUOTE (Fortune @ Oct 7 2008, 06:42 AM) *
I was going to give you the quote, but since you edited ...



Technically, Specialization is a Skill modifier (just like Vision Enhancement or a Smartlink), and is never considered part of the actual Skill level or rating.


Actually I just happened to look over it again.
(emphisis added)
QUOTE (Arsenal p 156)
The maximum number of dice that can be added to or subtracted from a character's dice pool from martial art modifiers is equal to the rating of the relevant Combat skill.


Last I checked DV isn't a dice pool, so I'm more then free to have +50 DV from martial arts if I can get bonuses from enough styles.

So, my original DVs still stand.
Fortune
Doesn't change the fact that Specialization is a Dice Pool modifier. wink.gif biggrin.gif
Glyph
Take another look at what you are adding - my Ballistic/Impact values are correct.

If you think the rule on pg. 156 doesn't apply, then the DVs wouldn't stack at all, and would be limited to +2 (how I run it, myself - +2 DV lets someone with Strength: 1 hit as hard as someone with Strength: 6, and is a higher damage increase than you get from hardliner gloves, the equivalent of brass nucks. Letting it go above that seems implausible).
Karaden
QUOTE (Glyph @ Oct 7 2008, 07:51 AM) *
Take another look at what you are adding - my Ballistic/Impact values are correct.

If you think the rule on pg. 156 doesn't apply, then the DVs wouldn't stack at all, and would be limited to +2 (how I run it, myself - +2 DV lets someone with Strength: 1 hit as hard as someone with Strength: 6, and is a higher damage increase than you get from hardliner gloves, the equivalent of brass nucks. Letting it go above that seems implausible).



Your right, I did my original adding compleatly wrong (Had ment to give the lesser vaules only 1/2 normal rating but gave full) So yeah, your armor values are correct.

QUOTE (Arsenal p156)
A character gains the advantages of all martial arts styles she knows


So why exactly wouldn't the DVs stack? You are correct though, the wording of the paragraph is a little ambigious. It says you get advantages from all styles, but then it goes on to talk exclusively about dice pools stacking, leaving something like DV hanging out. If you go compleatly by the rules there is no reason it shouldn't stack thanks to the line I just quoted. On the other hand there is nothing that spesifically states that DV (which isn't a dice pool) does or does not stack. And if it does stack, they may or may not have been talking about DV being limited as a dice pool.

In the end I suppose your right that they meant to include DV when they said Dice Pool. Would have been so much simpler to simply say modifiers instead of Dice Pool, but whatever (Something to go in an errata I suppose). So, take off his boxing, drop his DV by 1 and give him 10 extra karma to play with.
ElFenrir
Oki, let me reread the rule here, just for the hell of it. biggrin.gif I know this particular rule has been of some discussion here before. Like, since Arsenal came out.

By RAW, it says if the styles overlap, the dice modifiers stack. Now, DV modifiers are not technically dice modifiers. As the rule is written, it means, say, if MA 1 gives you the ability to take +2 dice to Surprise Attacks, and MA 2 and 3 let you take +1 under them, if you paid 20 BP, you could take +4 to surprise attacks...as long as you had an Unarmed Combat skill of at least 4. (Specializations, as I always knew it, are like..a Smartlink. Modifies the Dice Pool, not the skill. Someone with Blades(Swords) 5(+2) can only take 2 levels of the adept Improved Ability, for example.)

Now, in the rules, it doesn't say you *can't* stack DV. In fact, it's very reasonable why someone could read it like that-if dice modifiers stack, why not DV?

What MIGHT read better, IMO, is if they flat out-said ''you can't stack DV past +2'', ''DVs from different martial arts don't stack'' (ok, then everyone would take are boxing or kickboxing before all others and you know it...hey, I take em. I'm waving a guilty flag. wink.gif)

Or, it could specifically say ''All BONUSES from Martial Arts stack'' rather than Die Pool modifiers, with the Martial Arts limit.

The house rule that myself, Glyph, and some others use are more or less I guess for sanity. While i have no problem in theory with the super-skilled, Martial Arts 7 wise old master whose physical body has gone weaker(Strength 2) being able to beat the crap out of you by knowing exactly when, where, and what to hit(assuming this is where the stacking DV comes from), in practice, this is never the case; high ass DVs are almost always stacked on top of people who are already rather mighty-and no matter how many cool abilities martial arts give, people go for DVs and only DVs many times. I think it's great that the DV increase is there(and it makes sense that it is, a trained person would know that), it should be reigned in a bit.

As i like to say, when someone like myself, who LOVES melee characters and runs a rather loose game with no Availability limit at chargen and generally the easiest rulings for many rules(like Hardliners providing +1 DV than having their own damage code) thinks something is too much, then it might be too much. grinbig.gif

Hell, said strength 1 person can hit for 4P....one less than a heavy pistol and as much as a strength 7 troll. That is respectable as hell.
Karaden
True, you can nit-pick the characters to death thanks to a single ambiguous paragraph in the book, but overall I think they are proof of concept, you can have a decent melee character without stuffing him full of 'wares.
Kairo
QUOTE (Karaden @ Oct 7 2008, 08:41 AM) *
you can have a decent melee character without stuffing him full of 'wares.


QFT

My gaming group has used (and one still does) unaugmented mundanes. Are they as effective or stat monster-ish as other concepts? Obviously no. Can they be enjoyable to play and still be effective in a campaign? Absolutely.
ElFenrir
That is true, and it's the point of the thread. smile.gif I assumed that people would be taking advantage of things like Positive Qualities, heavy advantage of Specializations, solid Attribute bases and the like to help bridge the gap between the two. I think the nitpicking is an almost natural impulse of folks on the forum when dealing with ambiguious rules. I supoose the whole DV stacking thing gets me in my 'nitpick' mode just due to the fact there are so many other awesome things you can do...but DV is good, so people take it. Again, it's not often I make a melee character that doesn't take the +2 DV.

I kind of look at it in other ways too; take gun mods. There are lots of crazy gun mods one can get; extended clips, ceramic parts, custom looks, and so on...but the number one thing people stack? Recoil Mods...which, in a way, directly increase your DV. If there were a gun mod that, say, increased the DV of a gun by 1, and it didn't say any specific limit, I almost bet people would be picking up guns with some inate recoil mods and stacking this one to the sky, despite all of the other things. It's DV at the end of the day that knocks people out or kills them.

I always hate to sound nitpicky because I'm not that type usually, and again, I'm guilty of building some cybered or adept 9-10 DV monsters(with either of them it's screamingly easy to do-you can do it without taking the +DV) but...gah. I don't quite know how to put all my thoughts into words about it. I apologize for my nitpickiness and I don't want you to think I'm picking on you directly, because I'm not-I'm picking on the rule. I sorta get that way in every thread where I see people stacking martial arts DVs forever, cyber, adept, mundane, or whatnot. I can't help but shake the nagging feeling that even though it doesn't specifically say no, I'm not sure they were meant to be used that way. As they like to say, it's not you; it's me. biggrin.gif

You are correct, though-the certainly bridge the gap between the mundane and the cyber/magic folks and prove you don't need any of it, which, again, one of my points of the thread in general of mundane vs. augmented/awakened. In fact, being a melee fanatic, I almost feel like I'm busy ''betraying the cause'' of making melee awesome by making houserules like this, causing melee fans to yell ''whose side are you on?!?!'' grinbig.gif

But in any case, I have another offering here:

[ Spoiler ]


Well, Brian is tough, good Willpower, and throws 14 dice(16 smartlinked) to snipe with, which is pretty damn nice. He can track, search out his targets, get along socially, and defend himself in melee if he has to as well. He's quite stealthy on top of it. No real glaring weaknesses to this guy overall. He's not a monster in melee but between his skill, Body, and Dodge he can take care of himself, at least.

Demolitionist to follow later.
Karaden
Darn, you beat me to a sniper, though mine is an elf, a quick glance shows definitely similarities, though several differences as well. One of the more notable being that mine will actually come with weapons, and she ends up being more general assassin then pure sniper, though she is definitely sniper first and assassin second. Shame I can't get to my books for several hours, oh well.

We're running out of builds quick. Don't think anyone has shown a hacker yet, but that is one of those 'anyone can do it' sort of things I suppose. I won't step on your toes for demolitionist.

Perhaps some kind of mundane mage...
Mx
QUOTE (Karaden @ Oct 7 2008, 08:39 PM) *
mundane mage...

Isn't that kind of an oxymoron grinbig.gif cyber.gif
Karaden
QUOTE (Mäx @ Oct 7 2008, 12:45 PM) *
Isn't that kind of an oxymoron grinbig.gif cyber.gif


Yep! And I love being an oxymoron, it's almost as cool as being a real moron nyahnyah.gif
ElFenrir
Oh; I had planned on doing an assassin-type...but again, not a sniper or melee. smile.gif But that's the nice thing about assassins; they can be about any type you can think of. I was actually going something much different than a sniper or a melee assassin(hell, Sariel, the elf I made, could be a melee assassin. He has the stealth skills and surprise ability and a lot of damage). Assassins can take any form, really. Two snipers(yours and mine), my melee elf who can be one, and my other idea(ill wait to see if it crosses over with yours though-i don't think it will since yours is more sniper based), is a nice bunch.

Will be nice to have a more ranged based one in the group.

Ok, Demolitionist:

[ Spoiler ]


Well, since I made my other ones as bigger, tougher characters, I wanted to do a more ''normal'' one physically. But with all of these explosive skills, some car, gunnery, and all kinds of other fun toys, as well as decent social and stealth, she can certainly ''raise the roof'' on the place if needed. biggrin.gif Also showing you don't have to give a mundane character high-ass physical stats to be cool. Though her stat spread doesn't suck by any stretch of the mind. Her stun baton lets her defend herself in close with a decent die pool, and her Pistols with a smartlink is likewise nice(and, well, a grenade launcher. biggrin.gif)
Stahlseele
QUOTE (Mäx @ Oct 7 2008, 07:45 PM) *
Isn't that kind of an oxymoron grinbig.gif cyber.gif

if you can somehow find out the true name of a free spirit or get some spirit to join a spirit packt with you, it's entirely possible i'd say O.o
there was this alep society which let burned out mages get back some power, i don't see why that should not work for people who never had any magic
the_real_elwood
Sure you can make an unaugmented character that's kind of viable, but for a player character, anything you can do with an unaugmented character, an augmented character can do better. Now as far as NPC's go, there's plenty of room for unaugmented characters in the world. Your generic security guards and mall cops aren't going to be cybered up, but that's about the limit of it.
Karaden
QUOTE (the_real_elwood @ Oct 7 2008, 07:07 PM) *
Sure you can make an unaugmented character that's kind of viable, but for a player character, anything you can do with an unaugmented character, an augmented character can do better. Now as far as NPC's go, there's plenty of room for unaugmented characters in the world. Your generic security guards and mall cops aren't going to be cybered up, but that's about the limit of it.


I'd say the characters made so far are more then kinda viable. Granted an augmented character will be able to beat them out, but think on this. These characters we've made are already on par with your average non-twinked augmented character, now imagine if they did eventually grab a few pieces of 'ware. Also consider the extream level of invisibility unaugmented characters have. They just have to not carry around their illegal equipment and they can go virtually anywhere. Augmented characters however can't just leave their dermal plating at home to help them blend in. Those augmentations act as additional things to be recognised by.

"Yeah, sure I remember him, big elf, cybereyes and ears, plates on his body, and he moved way too fast to be natural."

Ok, so the cops are looking for an elf with cybereyes and ears, dermal plating, and a reflex enhancer. Sure you don't plan on getting caught, but it is just one more thing that helps the cops narrow down the search. Compare to:

"Umm.. yeah.. it was an elf... he was kinda strong looking.."

Ok, so cops are looking for a strong elf..................................................................... ok, so about 1/4th the elf population.

Perhaps a bit exagerated, but my point is there are hidden advantages to not having 'ware.

And of course, if your in a game that plays with essence lose from severe wounds... well that's that many more firefights gone bad that you can survive.

Need to stop slacking on my sniper. She's turning out very well, and an excelent overall assassin.
ElFenrir
Yeah, I was thinking about different reasons for unaugmented. Again, I have my preference for cybered or magic, but this was more an exercise in something fun.

I might do one more something. I'm sort of leaving a hacker to someone else; they aren't my specialty. I'm actually not superb with all the hacker ins and outs. I can run an NPC hacker ok, but I really don't know all of the little nuances.

Assassins are cool. Most important thing; unseen, fit in, never caught. I find they work best at range(or with magic, of that's the case), or with things like a slow-acting poison and a nice, high Palming skill. Perhaps a thin, hidden needle. biggrin.gif The sneak-in, stab in the back and leave suparninjas seem to be popular, but if I a Johnson in SR and hiring one, I don't like the risks involved with them. Luckily the above kind(sniper, poison, etc) can be made very easily without any sort of 'ware. In fact, it's a boon to them to not be noticed. You don't need to be superpowered to sit on a rooftop or slip someone a rather nasty mickey.
hyzmarca
When it comes to certain ubiquitous augmentations, not having them can be distinctive and conspicuous. In previous editions, for example, datajacks were so common that not having one would be grands to suspect a person of being either a magician, a hobo, or a samurai with so much hidden delta-grade combat 'ware that be can't afford the essence cost of a datajack without cybermancy. Likewise, having your original eyes is very conspicuous, given the ubiquitousness and fashionableness of cybereyes. No one would that that you were a samurai, certainly, but magician and hobo remain viable assumptions.
Karaden
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Oct 7 2008, 08:04 PM) *
When it comes to certain ubiquitous augmentations, not having them can be distinctive and conspicuous. In previous editions, for example, datajacks were so common that not having one would be grands to suspect a person of being either a magician, a hobo, or a samurai with so much hidden delta-grade combat 'ware that be can't afford the essence cost of a datajack without cybermancy. Likewise, having your original eyes is very conspicuous, given the ubiquitousness and fashionableness of cybereyes. No one would that that you were a samurai, certainly, but magician and hobo remain viable assumptions.


I don't know about that. Sure datajacks where cheap and virtually every runner had them, but they only played a fairly limited role for Joe Wageslave. He used a computer that he actually had to type on with a keyboard (Can you imagine?). As for cybereyes, while it is described as being the most common cyberware sold, it says nothing about how much cyberware is sold overall. I'm sure there are tons of people besides magicians and hobos who don't have cybereyes.

I mean sure, if you have cybereyes you don't have to wear glasses with image link to use your commlink, but alot of people are rather attached to their eyes, and the idea of having the plucked out would be more of a barrier then cost. Personally it would be the cyberware that I would have the most trouble with, because I can't even use contacts I dislike stuff being near my eyes so much (Not that I need them thankfully). So yeah, datajack and cybereyes aren't going to really generate suspicion, but a lack of them sure as hell isn't going to either, as I can assure you that less then 50% of the population has them.

Anyway, all that aside, finally done with my sniper, enjoy.

[ Spoiler ]


Edit: Ahahahahaha!! I totally forgot to give her perception nyahnyah.gif

Edit2:Ok, fixed.
Fortune
QUOTE (Karaden @ Oct 8 2008, 11:31 AM) *
... as I can assure you that less then 50% of the population has them.


Got a quote ... or indeed anything from canon to back up that assertion?
ElFenrir
Hey, I dig the sniper. smile.gif Definitely awesome at sniping, better at it than my fellow. Mine's a bit, well, tougher being a troll, but that was more for flavor, snipers don't need such toughness. Garrote is always good; you don't need a high Str score to mess someone's day up in one, especially when you roll a lot of dice for a sneak attack and they can't defend. A silenced pistols always works well, too.

Nice to see you gave some classic skills like Forgery and Locksmithing. In a way it kind of matches with an ''organic'' character.

That's a hell of a gun, too. It has like, everything. It looks like it can make toast. biggrin.gif
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