As you might expect, given the extremely specific nature of this question, I'm asking because it's pertinent to my current character's development.

I want to buy him a Renraku Stormcloud drone (medium-sized) and a Shiawase Kanmushi (micro-sized) specifically for the purposes of surveillance and intel-gathering, so it's going to be pretty important to know exactly how many sensors I can pack into the little things. But the RAW don't seem to mention exactly how much sensor capacity a medium drone or microdrone is meant to have.


You can look at the table on p.325 of the BBB and see specific info for the sensor capacity of minidrones, small drones and large drones. There's an entry for "Micro"--that's all it says: "Micro"--so I guess you could use that value as the sensor capacity for a microdrone. And I suppose you could house-rule that the sensor capacity for medium drones is the same as for Small or Large drones, or some arbitrary value in between.

But on p.138 of Arsenal there's an entry that makes me wonder if anything was omitted from the BBB. It explains how the vehicle modification Improved Sensor Array works:



Now, I'm not really interested in the Improved Sensor Array (at least, not now) but this text seems to be specifically referencing some values that I can't find anywhere in the books!


I'm hoping I've overlooked it and somebody here can point me to the relevant text. Anybody know?

Over in the handheld sensors. SR4, 325.

I don't mean to be too picky but the whole point of my post was that the relevant information is not on p.325 of SR4.


Unless maybe I've got an outdated printing of the book and it's been fixed since I bought it?


(EDIT: On p.13 my copy claims it is the "Corrected Second Printing by FanPro LLC" -- is yours different?)

"microsensors
are the size of a coin or smaller and are used on micro-drones
or oft en disguised as other items;"

Look for that text on that same page. In the "SENSORS" section.

I guess I'm not being clear enough here. The specific question I'm trying to answer is: "How many sensors can I fit into a microdrone or a medium drone?"

If you look at the table on p325, SR4, entitled "Sensor Packages" it shows you this:





and then there's a relevant quote:




So, there's nothing specifically saying "this is the Capacity rating of a microdrone's sensor package" or "this is the Capacity rating of a medium drone's sensor package", at least not in my copy of the book. And I'm trying to figure out if those two values are explicitly stated anywhere in any book at all.

You'll also want to note p. 105 of arsenal. It gives examples of the standard loadout for vehicles, as well as mentioning common sensors for drones.

Awesome, thanks Heath Robinson! Guess I just spent ten minutes typing that mess out for no reason.


So I'm assuming that the line that says "Micro" is stating that microdrones have sensor package Capacity ratings of 1?

Yes, the Micro is for micro sensors (like an earring or something) as well as for micro drones.

Great, thanks everybody.


I should have realized it would be possible to find the errata online with a simple google. Shame on me.




So then I guess I'm also curious what types of sensors everybody else likes to load their surveillance drones with?

With a microdrone being limited to only one sensor, it seems like you would basically have to use a camera if you wanted to be able to be able to give it updated commands at all. I guess you could send in two Kanmushis in tandem, outfitting one with a camera and the other with a basic microphone--you could give specific directions to the camera-equipped drone and tell the "blind" one to simply follow the other drone, and then you'd have audio and video for any room they enter together.

Well, I like giving my micro drones improved sensor arrays, and giving them a camera, motion sensor, and directional mic. Or for distance, laser mic & camera.

Why a motion sensor you ask? Cause they only have one camera, so it helps for noticing if people are moving around that corner, or coming up behind them.

Sensor packages depend heavily on what kind of work you're doing. Until they errata sensor enhancements taking up sensor package capacity, you should load your Microdrone (expanded to use a Minidrone sensor package) with a Microphone and Spatial Recogniser for better 360 degree movement placement than a motion sensor (400m vs 5m).

Cameras are good as well. Load your recon drones with Scan and have them run those extended tests to map out networks (effectively turning your aerial into a sensor). The last sensor can be mission specific. A Laser Range Finder is good for accurately mapping things, though.

Oh, that's another one I was wondering about. The current RAW don't seem to mention anything about enhancements taking up capacity slots at all, do they? Seemed a bit weird to me.

Correct. Vision enhancement/select sound filters and the like do not take up extra capacity inside of a sensor. Do note, they will increase the availability of the sensor though.

Page 105 of Arsenal says:



So, how do you handle this in your games? If I buy that Renraku Stormcloud can I just pick six Capacity worth of sensors and have them included in the drone's purchase price? Or should the cost be adjusted for certain sensors (and/or enhancements)--maybe those with higher or more restricted Availability than the drone itself? Also, should we increase the availability of the drone if I'm looking for included sensors that have higher Availability than the drone?

I haven't really done much with drones in SR4 before, so this is all uncharted territory for me, and for everyone in my group as well.

I'd say that the highest availability of any part would apply to the entire drone. Yes, in my games, you just pick 6 capacity worth of sensors for example. As long as the sensors are about the same cost as the base sensors it'd come with, I wouldn't charge anything extra. Though, wanting a drone to come with ultrawideband radar or something, I'd make you pay for it.

Thanks for letting me bounce ideas around. I'm really getting into this, and I haven't even talked to my GM yet.


How about sensor software? Seems like it would be incredibly useful to load up a surveillance drone with facial recognition software, park it outside a target's workplace, and tell it "alert me when you see this person". And that's just the beginning.

Also, ultrawideband radar seems cool as hell. I'm trying to google up something that shows it actually works in 2008 for "through-the wall" 3D radar imaging, but every hit shows me card catalog listings for theoretical research papers!

Yes, but the software will count against the drones running software. Limited you from running other important things like clearsight, or dodge.

Dodge is seriously not an issue for a recon drone. Especially a microdrone - they're ridiculously difficult to spot, let alone hit. Clearsight + Sensorsoft is only 2 of your 3 program limit.

You're right, I mean, they only cost a thousands of nuyen, and are instantly destroyed by a successful attack if they notice them. And how hard is it to find a wireless node again? Even if its hidden?

About 4-5 CTs for a midway decent hacker. The role he was discussing, though, is not a high risk position for a microdrone. If he has Image Mag on the drone's camera then it can be far enough away that the target will never spot it.

Okay, let's assume a perceptive fellow with Intuition 3 and Perception 3, he's got Vision Enhancement 2 on his contacts or eyes (because, if you could, you would do it). His DP to spot the drone is 8 against a Threshold of 4. That's not all that bad, especially if he gets to Edge it, right? Except he's taking -5 in penalties right way because the drone is using Vision Mag and is, therefore, placed far away (hitting both the "not in immediate area" and "far away" penalties for a double whammy; they stack imo). He's also probably distracted by his desire to get away from work, not get hit by traffic or find his own vehicle for another -2. He's rolling 1 dice against a Threshold of 4, i.e. Impossible. If he can use Edge (I dunno, maybe he's using prime runner rules or something), then he gets a chance that is slightly larger than zero.

Now, you could say that our target is, instead, the Sensorzombie (he's watching you masturbate!) and that requires a totally different plan, probably involving a spy satellite.

The drone isn't moving, it's just waiting until a particular event occurs and then calling home to alert the rigger. This is relatively innocuous - it's a drone that's sitting on a surface and waiting, maybe it's recharging, maybe it's waiting for more orders, maybe it's got a good, legitimate reason to be there. Drones are pretty rife in SR as far as I have been told and, unless your target is really special, it's unlikely to be linked to the person you're watching for (presumably there are a bunch of people working at the place you're watching).

Why would you use a microdrone? Because it can get closer and not be identified.

Its nice and all that you want to take a microdrone and stick it somewhere, and wait for it to see someone, but why bother using a drone when you can buy a micro camera (for a couple hundred nuyen) for the exact same purpose? If you are so far away, you don't need to have it capable of moving on its own, and you certainly aren't taking advantage of any other sensors you might have on it (microphone, etc).

Easy repurposement: one transmission and the drone is performing some other role in some other location. The fact that the drone delivers itself to surveillance posts. It can circumvent many barriers to placement by being relatively innocuous and difficult to notice. It's less noticable when being deployed by dint of not being a recognisable metahuman shape and being one member of the swarms of drones that buzz around the city. It's far less tracable because nobody is putting it in place, and that lack of tracability is easier to come by.

Drones are convenient, and for someone who intends to do a lot of this kind of work that convenience can be worth it.

Lets go with a different tack then.

Chances of this kanmushi successfully spotting and noticing the guy its looking for.

Pilot 3
Sensor 1
Rating 3 Device means System 3, Response 3.
Clearsight 3
Facial Recognition 3

Drone gets to roll sensor + clearsight to see the metahuman. Metahumans have a -3 penalty for detection via sensors. Drone gets 1 die. Theres a 16% chance the drone critically glitches, and thinks something is a person when it isn't. 50% change it just outright fails to notice the person. and a 33% chance it succesfully spots the human.

Then, with its rating 3 facial recognition... it might average out a success. Then again, you're already betting on a 33% chance of actually noticing the right guy anyway.

My thoughts exactly. Why spend the money for a drone when it's easier (and cheaper) to buy a dozen microcams, climb a few fire escapes, and plant them under the eaves facing all the target building's known entrances? If you want a drone for backup, or to follow the target when he leaves, then just hide a recon drone on one of the roofs and set it to power up when the cameras detect their target.

Tarantula,
Sensor tests aren't applicable here since we're using only a single, unrated sensor out of the package and the rules given in Arsenal override the normal drone perception rules for this purpose. Still, the chances of it succeeding are pathetic.


Try climbing a few fire escapes to put cameras up in real life. I'm not paying your bail.

I work as security. Can you guess who installed the new camera system under our eaves to monitor the front and back parking lots? I'll give you a hint: My boss is cheap, so, many of us here do multi-duty. Besides, most fire escapes where I've lived were in the alleys. The chances of being spotted by anyone but the homeless or drug dealers are slim if you're quiet and do it at night. Which just kinda makes sense don't it? Wanna be sneaky? Do it at night, when you'll be harder to see. Oh, and I used to climb fire escapes up to my buddy's 6th floor apartment 10-20 times per week cuz his landlord was a dick, and always tired to interrogate anyone he saw in his building.

I understand your point, it's just that I live almost entirely at night (RL Allergy: Mild-sunlight) and I'm very sneaky. For me it doesn't seem the least bit difficult. Nor would it be difficult for the average shadowrunner, IMAO.

No, its is entirely applicable. What rules in arsenal override using the sensor? If you're talking about these rules, Arse, 105, "Each vehicle and drone has a Sensor rating that acts as an abstract composite of all of the sensors in the vehicle combined. This Sensor rating should be used for most situations.
Under certain circumstances, a gamemaster may decide that certain vehicle sensors may not apply, or that only one specific type of sensor is relevant to the situation at hand. Some sensors might just not be suitable for the given task, may be pointing into the wrong direction, and so on. In this case, consider the applicable sensor to have the same rating as the vehicle’s Sensor rating. If the character has previously modified the sensor package, individual sensors may have their own ratings, as appropriate. Likewise, a gamemaster can always rule that certain individual sensor components have a lesser or higher rating than the overall sensor package."

Far as I can tell, it says if you're using a single sensor, it has a rating of the sensor level for the vehicle, unless it has been otherwise modified. Since last I checked cameras didn't have ratings, then it will still use the sensor rating of the drone. Which is 1.

Per Synner, cameras and microphones will have ratings with the next main book errata.

In which case the camera's rating would be used. I can't imagine a micro camera would get higher than a 1 base though. Guess we'll see with the errata.

As rating isn't limited by sensor package size, nor factored into capacity for any other sensor, I don't see any reason why there wouldn't be a rating 6 micro camera. In fact, each point rating will, per Synner, allow the camera to have one enhancement.

All depends on how it comes out. I could definitely see a rating 6 camera taking up an extra capacity.

A rating 6 radar sensor doesn't.

The Drone itself is not detecting the target, the software is analysing the image data from a camera and makes a Perception Test to do so. I repeat, the Drone is not making a Sensor test to detect the target, the software running on its node is using its rules which involve making a Perception Test.

I concede that Image Mag does not allow you to ignore the distance penalties to Perception tests by RAW, but I believe that any reasonable GM would waive some or all of the penalties. You could also apply the +3 "actively looking/listening for it" modifier if it's set to match a particular face which would make it no worse than the Drone itself even if you apply the same -5 in penalties from range (assuming you don't add any vision enhancement to the camera).

Perception test to tell if the person is that specific one or not. It does not replace the test to see the person in the first place.

If the drone is not looking for the person, then it would not get the bonus. Arguably, a sensor test is not a perception test, so those modifiers do not apply, as there are specific signature modifiers that apply to sensor tests.

So, you mean to say there's actually no point to using a camera subscribed by a commlink with Facial Recognition software because there's no Sensor attribute and, therefore, the camera automatically fails the Sensor Test to locate the person?

Commlinks aren't a drone, and don't follow drone rules for sensor tests.

Facial Recognition software isn't a Drone either.

Yes, but since the thread was discussing using a drone with a camera to use the software, the drone has to see the person in order to use the software. If you just had a static camera, you'd be fine.

You can order the Drone to ensure its camera is fixed on a particular position, effectively turning it into a static camera. I assumed it would be one of the orders you'd give to a Drone you're using for surveillance. I mean, that's pretty basic; if you're going to watch a single place for a long period of time you don't want your camera turning away from the place you're trying to watch. It's just common sense.

More reasons to use a Drone over a static camera: you don't need to manually reorient it if it's positioned badly or gets knocked out of alignment, it's less limited by the need for convenient surfaces, it's quite a bit more stable due to active compensation for forces.

And, yet, drones get stuck using the sensor rules, which means -3 for signature, and the target is highly likely to slip by without you noticing him. It'd be better to use a drone to and deploy/maintain microcameras.

Just because your drone is not moving, does not mean it is not a drone.

Okay, so if you wanted to run a video you'd previously recorded from a Drone's camera through FR software, the Drone would need to make a Sensor test for each person in the video? Alternatively, if the Rigger was just watching the camera footage from a drone and wanted to identify a person they saw in the video using their own knowledge, would you make the Drone roll a Sensor test even if the person is already in-shot?

If the drone fails its sensor test, the person isn't in the shot.

A Sensor Test exists to represent the Pilot program identifying signatures using an abstracted measure of its sensor quality. Why should we make a Sensor Test to determine if a person was in shot of a recorded video? That is the kind of thing a GM should just decide on their own.

There's no reason for the Drone to make a Sensor Test when it is being told to assume a particular position for an undefined period of time. That position can be set to ensure that the camera we're using for our FRsoft is pointing in a particular direction. It's completely coincidental, but it suits our purposes. At this point the Drone can proceed to physically lock all its moving parts for all we care. The FRsoft then does the equivalent of sitting in a darkened room watching a big screen and watches for a particular face; it pops a message back to the rigger when it spots that face on the screen.

Its the GM call to handwave away the sensor test. By RAW, the drone has to pass it to record the person.

You don't have to detect a person to record them.

If you do not detect the person with the sensor, you do not see them with it. Your only sensor is a camera. Therefore, if you do not detect them with your sensor, you cannot record them with the camera.

No mention of the particular sensors that were used to record the data that was analysed in the attempt to detect person, critter or vehicle. The person, critter or vehicle may have been recorded by the camera; they may not be detected by the Drone (ie it remains oblivious) but they could still be included in the camera footage (GM fiat either way). That camera footage is then passed to another person/piece of software. It can still contain a recorded image of the person because it's not related to the understanding of the world that the Drone possessed, the camera is not beholden to the Drone with regards to what it records.

Another way of looking at it is; if you fail a Perception test to notice someone but you have an Eye Recording Unit, does that mean that a person reviewing the material will never be able to spot the person? Does a photographer have to be aware of the lion sneaking up behind the zebra he's photographing in order for it to appear on film?

GM call in all cases. By RAW, if you fail the perception test, you don't see it, so no, it wouldn't be recorded.

No, by RAW if the Drone fails the Sensor Test then it, and it alone, fails to detect the person. We're not talking about the damn Drone spotting the person. Look, the Drone's sensor package is a separate entity; it has an independant existance proven by the fact that we can take it out and walk around with it and there are rules for that.

What we do is we subscribe the Drone to its own package and tell the FRsoft to run its analysis on the subscribed sensor package, bypassing the Drone entirely and its Sensor Test. The Drone doesn't need to make its Sensor Test because we're using the Camera in its sensor package exactly as if it were a standalone camera.