Straight from srrpg.com:

What is so munchkin about the new Bioware rules?

At least they make sense now.

i wouldn't call them so much "munchkin" as i would "sensible". bioware, since its inception, has supposedly been 'better' for the Awakened, with less of an impact on them. instead, under the old rules, it had more of an impact.

Munchkin in that for the loss of 2 Power Points you can now get +3d6 (Synaptic Accelerator+Boosted 1 for 1.0 Magic), and +4 to your Physical Attribute of choice (Strength or Quickness for 0.8 Magic) and still have room for a +1 Dice to all physical/technical skills and Reaction (Enhanced Articulation for 0.2 Magic). Yeah, much easier to munchkin the Adepts now (Would anyone honestly take Improved Attribute now on Str or Qui?)

However I think the rules are good nonetheless. Little twinky for Adepts, but sensible for Mages since few really wanted anything but the Trauma Dampener anyhows and now they can add Cyber instead of Mnemonic Enhancers for more variety.

Sphynx

I thought that Enhanced Articulation is 0.6 Bio. Total is 2.1. Therefore you would have lost 3 Magic Points.

You also have to remember the Modified Racial Maximums. Bioware can't surpass that.

Ever.

You know, this is the reason why implant rejection (Flaw) can be an interesting one.


L;

Sheesh

Init of 15+4d6 from an out-of-the-box Night One Adept, with 200K in resources...

Twinkiedom, ho!

:L!

It also fixed one of the annoying things that happend when bio and cyber were counted separate. I had a mage who wanted a datajack and dietware. that would have been 2 points of magic rating, that's silly.

it is better for adepts, but adepts before had it pretty good too. they just couldn't have a power with ranks greater than their magic rating. now at least they have less points to spend. time to go buy some bioware I guess.

An official recommendation which is not canon, and which makes little sense anyway.

~J

It's just a classic example of the designers overcompensating again.

All they had to do to "fix" the problem with bioware was say that it was geasable. In all other ways, it was more beneficial and easier on magicians. They could get a full nine-points worth of bioware without losing their ability to use magic (they just had to initiate four times to regain it), whereas a magician with 5.01 points of Cyberware lost their magic forever unless they initiated beforehand. Bioware also had a significantly lower impact on magical tests with a target number based on Essence, such as Heal and Treat.

But instead of doing that, they not ONLY did that, but did the half-cost thing AND allowed them to mix-and-match with cyberware as they see fit. Now you can get a full point of bioware AND half a point of cyberware and only lose a single point of Magic.

"4" "5" these are integers why?

Because they have to be numbers of d6's and target numbers for d6's. That is the only reason.

Thats why the old rule was dumb. It took these integers that are artifacts of the system and treated them like part of the IC universe thus further magnifying the artifact.

This did not make any more charachter options it made fewer options sensible. People were pushed to get multiples of 1.0 essence and 1.0 bio index. Now they are pushed to get multiples of 1.0 essence + bioindex. That means more character options not fewer. The old way a player who found 0.5 cyberware they liked for their charachter and 1.5 bioware would shift it around until it was 1 and 1 or 0 and 2. Now they will pick any configuration they like between 0-2 and 2-0 (well or 0-4 and 2-0 thanks to the half bio index thing).


There is still one edge for cyberware over bioware that helps it keep up. Cyberware grades do a lot more. In most campaigns beta cyberware is going to be attainable at some point, but neural bioware cannot have its magic loss reduced for any amount of money.

Twitchiness is a side-effect of all cybernetic (and only cybernetic) Initiative boosters, and is located on one of the last pages of Man & Machine's cyberware chapter. Synaptic Acclerator is immune to the effect, and the Reflex Trigger of Wired Reflexes nullifies the effect. That pretty much leaves Boosted Reflexes and Move-By-Wire as the only two implants with the problem.

Personally, I see Boosted as a chemical treatment (Which it is) that takes Essence for using it (Which it already does). However, I do not completely view it as cyberware because every piece of cyberware I have come across uses some sort of metallic connection. Boosted just uses chemicals.

Boosted was from SR1 before any thoughts of Genetech came into the game. Now that it's here, it just makes more sense there than it does as cyberware.

Definiately. Boosted Reflexes should have been "errataed" into either Bioware (eh) or Genetech (yes) a long time ago.

How is that any different from:

"So my delta-grade peg leg with Reduced Essence x10 surgical options alone makes me lose just as much magic as Bob, who just had his entire left leg replaced with an alpha-grade cyberlimb loaded to the brim with armor (enough to get a total Ballistic Armor of +2 and Impact Armor +1) and all kinds of gadgets and a DNI link? Screw that, I'm playing a sam."

As opposed to:

"So Frank just installed an alpha-grade smartlink-2, delta-grade datajack, trauma damper, and enhanced articulation and ONLY lost as much magic as I did when I installed my delta-grade datajack!?"

Both of those are equally "dumb" and pure metagaming. At least the way it was (if you added the geasa) made sense and was perfectly fair. If they didn't want a double hit to Magic, they could simply have chosen to go either the cyberware or bioware route, just like everyone else has that option. Sams can only get 5.99 points of cyberware and 2.99 points of bioware OR 9.00 points of bioware and no cyberware OR anything in between those two extremes, but either way, they have a limit and can only choose so much. The same applies to a magician.

There's a reason bioware creates a Bio Index and has no effect on Essence, and vice-versa for cyberware. They're two seperate and distinct things with two seperate and distinct affects on a character. Why that should change for magic is beyond me, especially since both the in-game (resistor vs. loss) and out-of-game (Bio Index vs. Essence) reasons for it are completely different.

It isn't worse, but it is easier to fix. That is another silly integer math artifact (sampling artifact I beleive is the more technical term). However fixing the bioware/cyberware separation artifact did not introduce any other artifacts. There is no down side to it (unless it was a really poor balancing mechanism), the system only got better. Clearly if we were writing a computer game we would use a much more continuous stat system probably we would use 0-1.0 (which is nice for math) or 0-100 (because people are used to percentages) and the difference between a little cyber and a little more would show up, but the need to do the math in our puny brains, roll dice, and read dice limits us to fewer larger increments (shadowrun chose d6's, so things concentrate around the range 0-6). This is no reason to emphasize that compromise in the rules the way hitting magic separately did.

If you don't like the first tiny bit of cyber costing one magic you could say that the first 0.25 essence lost or so does not cause any magic loss... personally I think that is a bad idea just because I think there should be a bonus to a magical character for staying absolutely pure.


You keep saying the old way was better because the cyberware and bioware affect magic in different ways. But that is not a weakness of the new rule. The only difference is in the rounding of numbers into OOC game stats. Now it is just that 0.1 of loss + 0.1 of resistance dont lead to 2.0 of magical power degradation, they lead to 1.0 of magical power degradation. 1.0 isn't 0.2, but it is closer than 2.0. What is your IC reason that magic must be lost or resisted in 1.0 increments from each cause separately?

Uh....I used up the adept points for Improved reflexes 3, then got enhanced Articulation and a dex boost.

No munchie "ignore the rules" magic+cyber, just additions to the base stats (Night one with imporved racial stat dex) and some moolah.


:L

I thought it was legal, anyhow....

No, I was just trying to point out that both are absurd and nothing has changed. The character who just barely gets an implant still suffers just as much Magic Loss as someone who gets a buttload installed, only now they can cram even *more* in for the same amount of magic loss.

Mage 1: Delta-Grade Flare Compensator with Essence Reduction 8: Bio Index 0, Essence 5.99.

Mage 2: Alpha-Grade Smartlink-2, Delta-Grade Datajack, Trauma Damper, choice of Mnemonic Enhancer 3 or Enhanced Articulation: Bio Index 1.00, Essence 5.50.

Both lost a full point of Magic, even though Mage 2 cramed a buttload more into himself than Mage 1. But of course if later down the road both of them lose their eyes and decide to get cybernetic replacements, Mage 1 can do so with NO magic loss, while Mage 2 is going to lose another point. That's the payoff; Mage 1 may not have started off with as much ware as Mage 2, but he can cram in just as much more later on down the road without worrying too much about it. Mage 2 doesn't have that luxury.

In any case, how is that any different, in effect, from whatever you were trying to prove with your example? So boohoo, two mages lost two points of Magic because they got some implants done, while the one with the minimal implantation can cram in even more down the road without worry while the other can't. Both have had their magic adversely affected by implantation of what is, in effect, hostile and damaging things to their magic, and both have paid the cost. It doesn't matter if one filled themselves up to the brim and the other didn't; they both chose to sacrifice their ability to weild magic for a boon.

Basically, I'm trying to say it was more desireable for a character to suffer the full consequences of their implantation as opposed to getting tons of free stuff for minimal consequences. You're basically whining because a mage has to deal with having his magic mowed down for trying to get the best of not two but three worlds; magic, cyberware, and bioware. Excuse me if I don't shed a tear over that. He can always geasa them off and never have to worry about it again unless he tries to become a cyberzombie or something himself, all the while gaining some extra flavor and character in the form of the geasa. Win-win as far as I'm concerned.

To try and end all this bitching about broken rules. I'm pretty sure I remember reading somewhere that boosted reflexes are not compatable with any other initiative enhancing 'wares. I'm going to find it now and post the book and page number as soon as i find it.

you lost me at the turn, funk...

what 3 worlds? the mage's going to lose magic in either case...

if bioware didn't count on the same scale as cyber then a datajack and bio tatoos would cause 2 points of magic as opposed to 1 in the case of canon rules, it makes more sense to me to have them on the scale.

Three World: The benefits of Magic. The benefits of Cyberware. The benefits of Bioware. 1 + 1 + 1 = 3.

If Mage 2 above wants to get what he got, he fully should suffer a full two points of Magic Loss in my opinion (with or without the halving of Bioware). He now has access to all three worlds, and is suffering the consequences for those decisions.

If Mage 1 wants to be stupid by getting a tiny piece of Bioware and a tiny piece of Cyberware, he deserves the same penalty. It's not Mage 2's fault that Mage 1 was too cheap or didn't have the need or desire to cram in as much as he did, and it's not Mage 1's fault that Mage 2 had or wanted to cram more in than he did. The fact is both of them are now gaining benefits from all three worlds -- magic, cyberware, and bioware -- and both of them are suffering the consequences of that decision.

Why it matters how much they had done is beyond me. If Mage 2 keeps getting more and more, he's going to suffer worse and worse consequences. Mage 1 shouldn't get off scott-free just because he's not putting in as much as Mage 2.

How you can rationalize that it's somehow "better" now that Mage 2 can cram in so much more while Mage 1 can cram in just a fraction of Mage 2's implants (yet suffer exactly the same consequence) in lieu of the exact same thing happening beforehand is beyond me. The only difference now is Mage 2 can do up to *100%* more than he could beforehand.

If you go by the second edition rules page 28 of shadowtech states "The synaptic acceleration process is incompatable with boosted or wired reflexes"

Yes i know this is second edition but I swear on my mothers grave it read this is a 3rd edition book somwhere and I will not rest till I find it...

You read wrong.

Trust me. I had the same qualms, then I read it.

Trust us. It's not. Boosted Reflexes, Synaptic Accelerators, and Reaction Enhancers are fully compatible and are a nice alternative for characters on a budget. They come with their own drawbacks as well.

If you don't want to take our word for it, take Rob Boyle's (even though I normally don't either):

Quit agreeing with me. It's like a bad dream!

I know its here I just can't find it. Its hidden somewhere in these books, damn to the three hells the person who cannot write an Index.

Anyway I wouldn't allow it in my game, and I would only allow that bioware errata rule to work on Cultured bioware. Even if Bioware is living tissue in general just look at all the real life cases of organs being rejected by the body even if they are almost a perfect match. Face it folks the human body is a bitch and its going to reject what ever the hell it wants to, kind of like an extreamly hot woman if she don't think you're compatable with her she's rejecting your sorry ass faster than a fat kid falling down.

That my thought on this. Thank you and good night casue now i'm going back to drinking.

Hey Doc, here's the thing. Bioware is supposed to be easier on the Awakened than cyber. Now, if you're arguing that in your opinion, they overcompensated, that's fine and dandy. But that doesn't change the fact that it's supposed to be easier on Magic.

For the record-- back in first and second ed, Bioware caused Bio index *and* Essence loss in the Awakened. Which really sucked big-time; just because you had magical ability, you could take *less* augmentation than a mundane, even if you went for burnout.

I don't give a flying fuck. I'm wrong, you're all right.

at least he admits it!