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crizh
Can I get a ruling on Spirits, particularly Possession Spirits, and non-simsense AR?

The FAQ clearly states, and has for some time, the following.
QUOTE
Can spirits and critters (i.e. dragons) use AR or VR?

Most Matrix technology -- especially simsense -- is designed for the metahuman nervous system, and so will not work on spirits or critters that lack such a system. Matrix accessories that allow interaction with AR and are not neuro-interactive -- such as AR gloves, goggles, feedback clothing, etc -- may be used by spirits and critters, assuming they understand how it works. VR, however, is usually out of the question, as it requires simsense. Numerous rumors circulate that some megacorporations have developed Matrix technology for use with non-metahuman nervous systems, but none have been substantiated.


Unfortunately RC gets all woolly minded and confused on the issue and contradicts this.

Synner has recently stated that the FAQ will shortly be updated to indicate that all Spirits will have normal human senses. Here.

This will, presumably, remove the ridiculous 'electronic displays' restriction (whatever that means) and leave non-DNI AR open to Spirits.

Which version do you favour?

edit -

Would you consider allowing the Martial Arts Quality from Arsenal? As it stands the current rules ban Spirits from using it.
Cthulhudreams
Character Concept: Free spirit who was formerly the ally spirit of a mercenary intelligence agent. Agent has disappeared, Rapière is back, no-one knows what is going on.

[ Spoiler ]
Cthulhudreams
Character sheet - spells and spirit powers are WIP stuff, and I have 21 karma and 8k nuyen up my sleeve which I'll probably blow on arbitary knowledge skills.

[ Spoiler ]
BlackHat
Did Dentris say we could use karma for things post-char-gen? Otherwise, your force/magic is limited to 6, and all of your other attributes are limited to your force. Initiation twice would raise your force-maximum to 8, but it would take post-char-gen karma to get up there with force/magic and edge.

Of course, I suppose spending karma on initiation is post-char-gen karma too, so its probably all good.
crizh
He certainly said we could initiate but that we were still to leave Force at a max of 6.

I'm pretty sure that means that our Magic is therefore capped at 6 because we don't actually buy Magic we buy Force instead.
BlackHat
That also capps everything else, since the other attributes are capped by force (and, you can only have one attribute at maximum - so they're really all capped at 5)
Cthulhudreams
Yup, I bollocksed that - just noticed that in his orginal post!
Cthulhudreams
Fixed it. 6 initiations hahah.
crizh
QUOTE (BlackHat @ Nov 13 2008, 01:15 PM) *
That also capps everything else, since the other attributes are capped by force (and, you can only have one attribute at maximum - so they're really all capped at 5)


Not that that is necessarily a bad thing. In karmagen Stats above 5 get real expensive real quick...
crizh
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Nov 13 2008, 01:23 PM) *
Fixed it. 6 initiations hahah.


Nice.

Diving? That's a funny Spirit Power...
BlackHat
QUOTE (crizh @ Nov 13 2008, 05:52 AM) *
Would you consider allowing the Martial Arts Quality from Arsenal? As it stands the current rules ban Spirits from using it.


I did not notice Martial Arts on the list of prohibitied qualities (pg 93 of runner's companion). I don't see why that would make any less sense than a spirit knowing about economics, or hacking. biggrin.gif

EDIT: Nevermind, I answered my own question by finishing the paragraph. Lol.
Cthulhudreams
QUOTE (crizh @ Nov 13 2008, 09:26 AM) *
Nice.

Diving? That's a funny Spirit Power...


Bah, Divining nyahnyah.gif

I agree about stats being expensive, but I wanted the extra magic because the normal boosters that you have for spell casting - power foci and mentors are not avalible. With 8 magic + 6 sorcery, I was still in the butter zone - 6 + 6 is certainly less impressive. I'll spec manipulation obviously, but it still sucks a big one.

Karaden
QUOTE (crizh @ Nov 13 2008, 08:26 AM) *
Nice.

Diving? That's a funny Spirit Power...


I'm guessing he meant divining. As in the power of the metamagic of the same name.
Cthulhudreams
Yeah - Just made some further changes, its pretty close to complete. I just had a flash of insight and came up with a much better name while I was picking my spirit powers.. and now I've forgotten it. Damnit.
Karaden
I just thought of something interesting... can we form pacts with each other? I don't think anything specifically says that spirit pacts -have- to be with metahumans or -can't- be with other spirits.
BlackHat
I don't know. Free spirits are forbidden from taking the "Spirit Pact" quality... so, I'd say probably not.
Cthulhudreams
The stupid thing is - I'd totally take dream pacts, but..

What the hell is the effect of a dream pact for me? None of the pacts tell you what they do for the spirit, at all! (Except friendship)



BlackHat
Well, usually they allow a spirit to gain karma (Free spirits cannot gain karma on their own). I was just going ot ask about this. Did anyone see anywhere that says this has changed for PC free spirits?

Dream-pact's benefit is that it allows you to gain karma like a human.
BlackHat
Also, apparently, if these characters have somehow been banished from their home metaplanes... that means that if they ever become disrupted, banished, or either wound track fills up (including stun), they're just straight-up dead and have to burn karma to remain in existence.

The metaplanes are where free spirits go to heal (although, they usually can't return to earth for a month or so, in these cases, baring friendship pact).

That probably puts them at about the level of mortals, except a full stun track, or a magician banishing them seems like it could come up fairly easily.
Cthulhudreams
Double post
Cthulhudreams
Only while I'm inhabiting someone else, or all the time? Thats the puzzler - and do I have to go inhabit the chumps body? What happens if I'm busy and he goes to sleep while he's at school or whatever.

Damn, you make regeneration sound like a good idea - shame its 5 PP!

Hrm, considering taking fame + Day job, and having him go into the office 10 hours a week to do divinatons etc, but at a measely 5k nuyen, it doesn't seem worth it. Also, how does 'fame' work for someone who can change form at will and can maintain concealment all day 24 x 7

I suspect it doesn't haha.
Karaden
QUOTE (BlackHat @ Nov 13 2008, 08:45 AM) *
Well, usually they allow a spirit to gain karma (Free spirits cannot gain karma on their own). I was just going ot ask about this. Did anyone see anywhere that says this has changed for PC free spirits?

Dream-pact's benefit is that it allows you to gain karma like a human.


You can gain karma if you have a full friendship pact. And yeah, every pact has a benifit for the spirit, or in the one or two cases that they don't, it can be assumed that they're getting paid or something else.
BlackHat
Only while you're possessing him (and not normal possession, only through the dream pact).
And, yes, it says WHENEVER he goes to sleep - so if you're in the middle of something, and he nods off... *poof*... but at least you're earning karma while that happens. biggrin.gif
Cthulhudreams
Yeah that doesn;t sound like a good idea, heh. Will just roll out in a karma free zone, though actually that could completely screw me, because it...

Hey wait up, how does this even work

It requires karma to get a new PP to form a pact, and without a pact you cannot get karma.

What the heck? - oh, you're suppose to get that inital boost from people gifting you?
BlackHat
Well, all free spirits start with one pact free. I don't know, maybe Dentris plans to have us all earn karma like normal characters - but, otherwise, it seems like you would want to make sure you pick a pact that allows you to gain karma somehow - either through favors, or friendship pacts that let you "adventure" for karma.
Karaden
You get the friendship pact and any pact of your choise for free, just like matirilization. You can also buy more pacts with Power Points of course.

So yeah, free spirits can all get karma from the start if they can get a full friendship pact.
BlackHat
Well, I believe you get the friendship pact OR any other pact (your choice) (pg 93, RC). Normally, if you want more than one, you have to buy the spirit-pact power (at 1 PP), but Dentris has said we can only have one pact to begin with (with the ability to get more later).
Dentris
Ok, i plan on allowing you to earn karma like a normal individual as long as you have a spirit pact, no matter what pact it is. Each pact comes with its own unique rewards and limitations, though.

My ruling about spirit/matrix interaction is this: materialization spirits can interact with commlinks (thus to a limited degree with AR) and possession spirits can fully interact with AR since they share their host's senses. Full VR is impossible for any spirit. Gamewise, as long as they have a commlink, spirits can surf the matrix without penalty.
Karaden
QUOTE
The PC free spirit has the choice of any of the pacts on page 108 of Street Magic, plus the Friendship Pact, which is detailed below.


Your right, I was just missreading this to mean they got their choice of any one pact and they also got friendship pact, not that friendship pact was included as the options from which to choose.
BlackHat
Also, keep in mind that free spirits either get 10% off of their lifestyles (if using the base lifestyle rules) or get to ignore the necessities category (if using advanced lifestyles). I think the character posted earlier had paid for necessities.
Karaden
He did, but very low. I'm guessing he took it to provide food to visitors or such (as was stated)
BlackHat
Oh yes, that's true. You can do that. My bad.
BlackHat
Here's a draft of my entry. Dentris was awesome and happened to have my old entry still on his computer, so I got to reuse a lot of the background and description stuff, for free. It hurt losing some of those sweet powers, but the new rules are way more balanced - and I think if the reflavoring of the pact I selected is okay, the character will retain the same feel.

Reserving the right to make changes, and open to hearing any suggestions/criticisms (so feel free to peek at the spoilers).

[ Spoiler ]

crizh
How does this look?

[ Spoiler ]


It's a bit rough so far...
Karaden
Very cool stories. Blackhat's looks like it will be notably similar to my own, but should be plenty different enough.

I'm still working on finalizing concept and character.

Wow, crazy just how similar Blackhat's is to what I was working on. I'll keep on with what I have and see just how similar it is.
crizh
I'm not sure I like Darrin.

It just sort of came to me and I bashed it out while it was fresh.

I'm going to try and work up something else that I might use instead.
BlackHat
I thought the Darrin idea was pretty cool (assuming Dentris OKs inhabitation spirits).

One possible problem with his ruse would be being dual-natured all of a sudden... but theoretically, the percentage of people who can notice that is pretty small.
BlackHat
QUOTE (Karaden @ Nov 13 2008, 12:30 PM) *
Wow, crazy just how similar Blackhat's is to what I was working on. I'll keep on with what I have and see just how similar it is.


I didn't know. frown.gif You have my apologies, though. biggrin.gif Which parts were similar to your ideas? We could probably work around each other pretty easily, or even accept it and work some pieces together.

I can't tell how many people are working on characters for this game, but Dentris mentioned looking for 4-5 characters - so it might not matter, if he gets a lot of submissions, before making his decisions.
crizh
QUOTE (BlackHat @ Nov 13 2008, 05:39 PM) *
I thought the Darrin idea was pretty cool (assuming Dentris OKs inhabitation spirits).

One possible problem with his ruse would be being dual-natured all of a sudden... but theoretically, the percentage of people who can notice that is pretty small.


I was just going to go with Possession and Realistic Form. And staying home a lot..

I'm still not sure I like it but I'll run it up and see how it feels.

edit - however an Inhabitation Ally would have been an option in that scenario and would have had access to his DNI. I think..
Karaden
Could we have phobias/manias from agumented?
BlackHat
Oh, nevermind. Being in a dead body is "possession" and not "inhabitation" (as I thought, for some reason).

Realistic form is a good call for looking normal too - I hadn't noticed that that power worked for possession, before.
Karaden
QUOTE (BlackHat @ Nov 13 2008, 12:50 PM) *
Oh, nevermind. Being in a dead body is "possession" and not "inhabitation" (as I thought, for some reason).

Realistic form is a good call for looking normal too - I hadn't noticed that that power worked for possession, before.


Indeed, and PC free spirits can also have mutable form with possession, which is rather interesting. I assume that means we can mutate whatever we inhabit into another shape (likely within reason). This could be very cool for things like inhabiting a car and changing that model it is as you drive away to throw off pursuers.
crizh
QUOTE (Karaden @ Nov 13 2008, 05:55 PM) *
Indeed, and PC free spirits can also have mutable form with possession, which is rather interesting. I assume that means we can mutate whatever we inhabit into another shape (likely within reason). This could be very cool for things like inhabiting a car and changing that model it is as you drive away to throw off pursuers.



Bwahahahahaha!
BlackHat
They can? The power says "when you materialize" which I think would limit it to "materialization" spirits. I didn't see anything in RC that said PCs could ignore that for some reason (other than it being in the list of available powers, which jsut means it is available to PCs.. .doesn't change how the power works, though)
crizh
QUOTE (BlackHat @ Nov 13 2008, 05:59 PM) *
They can? The power says "when you materialize" which I think would limit it to "materialization" spirits. I didn't see anything in RC that said PCs could ignore that for some reason (other than it being in the list of available powers, which jsut means it is available to PCs.. .doesn't change how the power works, though)


Having just looked it over it explicitly bans Possession Traditions from using it.

No shape shifting robots for me. Boo.
Karaden
Oh, and as for the similarities, was going to have my spirit (a mimic) have a cult following. However instead of them joining for sexual purposes, they often join because of my healing abilities. As a mimic however, my largest vice is, you guessed it, sexual indulgences, often gained through the cult following. Inhabiting one member (Viewed as an honor) and using their form to enjoy sex, with the other members (A lesser honor). Also inhabits a corpse that is made to look beautiful through realistic form, mutable form, and healing to keep the corpse looking still alive even without the other abilities.

Also use sturdier forms (homunculus) when required to do dangerous things. Major karma gains are from health pacts with members. Karma and/or money gained through possessing them for various reasons (Advanced healing, aiding in this or that, because it feels good, whatever).
Karaden
QUOTE (BlackHat @ Nov 13 2008, 12:59 PM) *
They can? The power says "when you materialize" which I think would limit it to "materialization" spirits. I didn't see anything in RC that said PCs could ignore that for some reason (other than it being in the list of available powers, which jsut means it is available to PCs.. .doesn't change how the power works, though)


QUOTE
Mutable Form*

QUOTE
*available to free spirits of all traditions


I figured this meant that it was available to spirits of the possession tradition as well.
crizh
QUOTE (Karaden @ Nov 13 2008, 06:06 PM) *
I figured this meant that it was available to spirits of the possession tradition as well.


Actually what Mutable Form (SM p109) says is 'only available to Spirits with the Materialization power.'

So, not contradictory, just a little confusing.
Karaden
I'm just trying to figure out why they... Oh, no I think I just realized.

You see, usually you have to have in your tradition at least one spirit type that can take a given power for you to be able to take the power, but the * denotes that you don't have to meet that requirement. You would still have to meet the 'possession v materialization' requirements.
Play
QUOTE (Cthulhudreams @ Nov 13 2008, 05:32 AM) *
Bah, Divining nyahnyah.gif
With 8 magic + 6 sorcery, I was still in the butter zone - 6 + 6 is certainly less impressive. I'll spec manipulation obviously, but it still sucks a big one.


Magic 8...are we not capped at 6 to start?

Also, with multiple initiations, there's no increase in magic or force but one gets the extra metamagics?
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