Hero uses the same concept, but at a cost of 1pt per (250 pt base), with the restriction that large or complex tasks might require that you have multiple favors owed to you that you can burn.

You could also have the PCs get points at char-gen for owing favors to people. "As some time in the future I may..."

Fair enough. But most (if not all) of the fictional shadowrunners are running at a much higher level then the players at my table. Also note that this is a limit on contacts during character creation not in game. Even Ryan Mercury didn't start out boning the VP. Once the game starts what contacs you can have are wide open, assuming you can acquire them in game. If a PC can convince Damion Knight to be his/her live in lover, then more power to them. Indeed one of the first contacts my players are likely to acquire is a loyalty 1/connection 4 fixer, whom the Charisma 1 troll definitely could not begin play with. The key difference in contacts acquired during the game and in creation is that I actually have much more control over the contacts a player acquires in game, while during creation it is a much more wide open process. This is not to say that I don't listen to my players desires in whom they would like to develop associations with during the game, I still do.


I disagree. A loyalty 5 or 6 contact will back a character "even in risky situations" a rating 6 loyalty contact "will do whatever he can for the character, even if it means putting his own life on the line." You are perfectly right that some actions that a high loyalty contact might take might not always be in his best interest. But that doesn't mean they might not still do them anyways. Whats more, the rules indicate that a Loyalty 6 character will take "major risks" (rating 6 favors) without test or expectation of repayment of favor in kind. This is not that big a deal for low connection contacts. But if a Mafia Don is willing to "put his own life on the line" for you. You just went from gutter punk to person to be feared by virtue of that simple fact alone.

Furthermore, I am of the opinion that, in general, things like calling in strike team, or having his goons lean on somebody is something I a high level contact could be expected to do with little risk of repercussion. I mean, Shadowrun is a setting where high level managers like KE commanders and Mafia Don's DO arbitrarily make risky decisions like that, all the time. If such a figure repeatedly makes such decisions, then yes, his career/life might be in danger. But IMO calling in a strike team on their behalf is exactly the kind of favor the runners might reasonably expect a connection 5/6 KE commander to do on their behalf. Being loyalty 6 simply means he will do it without much/any explanation or expectation of return.


I think that might be a little high, depending upon the connection of the contact. I would cost such 'disposalble' contacts at 1/2 the contacts connection or favor level. Which seems more reasonable to me.

What is this? I have never heard of it.

Such abuses, however, are self-policing if you use realistic consequences. A Connections 6 character who puts his career and reputation on the line for the PCs every other week will soon become a Connections 1 contact. The contact who risks his life on the PC's whim, likewise, dies fast.

But Loyalty 6 is best friend, not butt-monkey. He'll put himself on the line to save the PCs from death or a similar horrible fate. But he won't capitulate to their every whim or do stupid stuff just because they ask. The key is to play it realistically and draw the line in the same place that a Best Friend would draw the line.

What the hell is a pornomancer? I missed the bus on this term..

Maybe yes, maybe no. Certainly you are right, and that if such a contact was abused it would be self correcting. But such a contact would not have to be abused to disrupt game balance. The occasional use of a powerful assets such as a Firewatch strike team, at no cost to the runners, is alone enough for balance concurs, even if it used very infrequently. Whats more a powerful contact like this could be expected to hand out lesser favors virtually at will with little to no repercussions for the contact itself. When your a Mafia Don with assets in the tens of millions (at least), loaning out 50k to your most prized underling (a rating 4 favor) every month or so really isn't that big a deal to you or your organization. But in terms of game balance for the PCs it could be a very big deal indeed!

An extremely maxed-out Social Adept, typically specializing in Seduction.

Of course, in threads about the pornomancer the assumption that social skills are an acceptable alternative to mindraping magic tends to run wild and free.

Its an American television show that aired on ABC for 16 episodes during 1998. It starred Michael Madsen as Mr. Chapel (no first name). Chapel is a Robin Hood (ish) chatacter who is in the business of revenge.

Generally, Chapel approaches someone who has been the victim of a crime that the perpetrator has gotten away with or someone who has been framed for a crime and is in prison. He then gives that person an offer, revenge, for the low price of one million dollars, or a single favor sometime in the future. The only thing Chapel won't do in pursuit of revenge is murder, and he doesn't use guns for some reason. But mostly he's a face. He insinuates himself into the lives of his targets and utterly destroys them, manipulating them into doing exactly what he wants and often topping it off by framing them for a crime that never even happened.
To facilitate his elaborate schemes, he uses those favors that he's earned from clients who couldn't pay a million. Every now and then, he takes a job from someone who can afford it, which covers his expenses for a while.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0158421/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vengeance_Unlimited

Much obliged. I did look it up on IMDB after I posted, but that didn't really go into too much detail. Sounds interesting.

Banned?

Rodrigo and his hot, Latin passion.

(Any GM upon seeing Rodrigo should immediately go "no fragging way" as Rodrigo is the SR equivalent to the D&D Politico (DC 50 Diplomacy check? I get that on a 2 and I'm level 10), starting points character who could seduce...anything, I'm not even sure the great dragons are safe).

First of all, Day Job costs time (and a clearly defined amount of time at that).
For any downtime-heavy concept (hackers who code on their own, mages who craft their own binding materials, gunsmiths, vehicle-modding riggers, faces with scores of contacts, sams who regularly undergo implant treatments and genetic modifications, technomancers who want to improve bonded sprites and go on Resonance quests and so on), this flaw is a serious drawback.

Furthermore, it includes responsibilities that may very often collide with a runner's live ("i can't get shot, i have to go to work in 3 hours").
If you check out beforehand what kind of job the character has, determine office hours together with the player and think about at what time of day the team goes on runs (which also includes lenghty stuff like legwork, data searches, observation of target locations, intercontinental travel and so on), it should be no problem to incorporate that into your game and could add a lot to the PC's life outside of shadowrunning.

Oh, and they have to pay off the flaw with karma if (or probably rather : when) they get unemployed.



First of all, i'll never understand why so many players seem to take CHA as a dumpstat.
From a viewpoint mainly concerned with optimizing (which is most of the time what matters when we talk about dumpstats), it is just retarded to run around with CHA1.

SR is, like practically all games in modern societies, heavily concerned with social networks.
When you're a runner, it's all about who you know.
Runners cannot exist without a network of contacts.
They need gear, ware, someone where they can fence their loot, somebody to patch them up when they get shot or to implant the new ware they have acquired, sources for inside information, a good lawyer to get them out of jail when they have really messed up, somebody who takes care of their vehicles, fixers and Johnsons, additional muscle they can hire for tailchasers or people who can provide other forms of distraction, inside knowledge in law enforcement, organized crime and the big corps- the shadow community is a vast and diverse network.
And you'll not only need competent contacts, you'll also need reliable contacts.
A good shadowrunner is a well-connected runner.

I'm afraid that your suggestion may be about to shoot that approach in the knee and then it would be writhing on the floor in pain and terror and there'd be blood getting all over my carpet and it'd all be a terrible mess.

Plus, i cannot understand the "anti-social, villainous thug" part of your statement.
What about faces, or CHA-based caster traditions or TM streams?
Or former company men, ex-bodyguards, gang bosses...
Not even mentioning the soon-to-come-back-in-style concepts of musicians, reporters and other media types as characters in SR campaigns.
Not all runners will be disfigured losers who never get laid and whose most important form of social interaction is pointing a gun at things.
In fact, almost no one in any of my groups would fall into that category, even the troll sam has some manners (no surprise, he's a former bodyguard).
The few characters who really are antisocial are played (and statted) this way on purpose, because it is, very clearly, an integral part of the player's character concept.

Two of my favorite characters are musicians. Of course, that is more of a hobby than a job, & hasn't ever come up in game - their profession is combat/stealth Mystic Adept (Fire mage) & medical specialist Magician (Necromancer).

Actually i can't get the idea of a posession-tradition sasquatch illusionist entertainer backed up by a task spirit band out of my head.

Even though I do ban items in my game I also withdraw those bans from time to time depending on the campaign setup. However here is a list of the current items I ban in my games and the reasons

Bio-compatability: I banned this because I dont feel it adds anything to the characters story while giving the player even more things they can cram into themselves. I generally like to have every character have something to advance towards, not including things that make them reach that glass ceiling to quickly.

Spell/Spirit Knack: I dont know if its just my group but I have seen potential abuse from this merit mostly due to the fact that alot of the people that I have had in my games tend to make hybrid Cyber-magic characters that use small bonuses from either source to get jacked pools. Plus I feel that it kind of robs magical characters of their role to a degree.

Spirit Pact: Gives the character access to powers and abilities that I feel should be earned in game. I ran a campaign that saw abuse from this merit as the player was playing a mystic-cyber adept that had pacts that allowed him to sustain a spell. I was the retard that allowed it, if they want to make a pact with spirits they can do it in game.

Resonance Bond: same reason as above

Restricted Gear: There is a reason why you can only purchase something at availability 12 to begin with. This is something I learned the hard way as when I began running SR4 I allowed everyone to have one piece of gear up to availability 20. After seeing the abuse such items had in game I decided I would make them work for it.

Metavarients and alternative races: I generally dont allow them unless the player has an amazing concept that isnt based off of the lion witch and the wardrobe. The reason in plain is just that typical concepts based off of such races generally dont reflect the gritty dark world of shadowrun as I see it and run it.

Copying programs: this is probally the biggest abuse. It doesnt have a real world explanation it but I dont allow programs to be copied period. After having armies of agents just duplicating themselves, hackers procuring bleeding edge programs at little to no cost to themselves then getting rid of it before the upkeep or patching, dealing with hours upon hours doing math to sort out dice rolls, calculate upkeep, and generally sap time away on useless bookkeeping I said enough is enough. Programs cant be copied period end of story.

Contacts: I dont usually allow characters to possess a contact with connection rating higher then 4 just because I like to have the characters start from the ground and work thier way up

emotoys: are used for judge intentions (that a new one but after reading this thread and the book that seems to be the most balanced thing for my game.

I think that pretty much covers it. There are a hand full of house rules and so forth that I have made to cover other broken things but they aren't out right bans.

Generally I only outright ban something that has a pure game breaking elements, has been abused horribly in my game before, or gives te character what I feel is too much power at very little cost (in either nuyen,Karma, or roleplaying implications)

I ban nothing. Hasn't really been a problem for me, either.

I disagree strongly with just about everything you listed except emotoys, but this...

Spell/Spirit Knack is, along with Astral Sight, by far the worst quality in print. There is no possible abuse from this quality - if your players want to take it, you should first determine if it is from a pure concept point. If not, bitch-slap them for being idiots.

Spoonfunk, you might have missed that the Magic attribute you gain from Knacks and Astral Sight obeys normal essence loss rules. That is to say, the characters who took it and got even a single piece of 'ware has essentially wasted the 5 BP or 10 karma they spent on the quality, because you can't even raise their Magic.

They prevent you from getting 'ware and they offer negligible benefits of their own. They are crippled versions of being a proper mage and they're not compatible with other awakenings, nor emergences. Ban the quality on the basis of it being stupid to take it, sure, but because it can be abused? You're crazy.

That might be partly a result of the term having been nicked from Unknown Armies originally. It's one of the many completely whacked out postmodern magical traditions in UA; mages who re-enact a mythical porno flick to gain powers of mind control and magical seduction.

Just the fact that it allows me to write something like that is one of the many reasons I love Unknown Armies




Yeah. I've had to completely rewrite the rules for both of these just to make them even remotely worth the points cost. Lets not forget that you also have to buy all the relevent skills at full cost just to cast one spell, and you're limited to Force 2 (so your spirit pops as soon as someone looks at it funny).

I just changed the Knacks/Astral Sight to work as long as they have an essence of 1 or greater. Problem solved.

Banned:

• Stick 'n' Shock out of anything but a shotgun or grenade launcher.
• Gel rounds out of anything other then a shotgun or purpose-made firearm. If you want less-than-lethal, get a mage or use a taser.

Technomancers bother me. Like, seriously. They're not banned but I definitely want to do something with them. I'm tempted to simply adapt FrankTrollman's Technomancer chapter just to make them seem like they don't hack like deckers without the deck.

one of the group gms wanted to ban me from enchanting after he made the mistake of giving m 2.5 kilos of orichalcum.

Didn't see the line about essence loss. I will reevaluate that in my games then.

I have also had to ban ridiculously powerful bows after I had a character make a bow which did more damage than a tank round.

Copying Programs is out since as mentioned above, it can get really ridiculous.

I try not to ban anything from my games, but I have a group of power gamers so every once in awhile I have to lay down the ban stick to keep them from doing something game breaking >_>.

I think the best banning policy was: "nothing is banned, but anything you use or exploit I will use and exploit against you."

why you be hating on us Archery-Trolls? ._.

i ban sr4 in general lulz.

See, I never liked that mindset. It breaks suspension of disbelief in many cases and can actively punish the players who aren't doing anything silly in the name of slapping down a munchkin. I've seen it happen before personally; the Munchkin and the GM are busily waving their dicks at eachother while the rest of the group wishes they had just gone out for pizza and beer instead of trying to get a game going. It's genuinely disheartening.


Speaking of pizza, beer, and banning, the best move I've ever seen by a GM dealing with a new batch of players was when my first SR4 GM decided we should all go hang out together at a local pizza dive and talk about the game away from the books before ever playing a session. Sure, power level was discussed and a few things were banned, but the conversation never really bogged down and became about rules lawyering or whether anyone was being a disruptive player, two things that can definitely become a problem in the middle of a game. Instead, when we decided that troll bows should be thrown out and that Panther Cannons could be purchased at chargen, it was due to us being slightly tipsy and jointly deciding we liked an over-the-top but high-tech Sixth World more than we liked Archery; it went smoothly because the decision was built off of concensus rather than accusations. When you start with a more unified vision of what you want the game world to look like, it's suddenly a lot easier to get on the same page from the very beginning of the campaign.

EDITED cause I realized how old this post was.

Mark

*points at post count*
you'd get more credit if that were higher.
*snickers*
look at the other guys and their posting counts.
we love authors of stuff we love that actually do step down to us on a regular basis and talk/have fun with us ^^

by the way, what did you write? O.o


*looks at own posting count and spirts out drink*
doubya tee aff? O.o
how did i get allmost 3,5k posts? @.@

By unanimous vote, Commanding Voice was recently banned. I put them up against a Leadermancer as the Big Bad, and he nearly walked away scot-free.

Yeah, but you can always GM fiat that Command Voice just stops the person in their tracks instead of doing exactly what they were told.

Isn't that how it works? I.E. - You can't tell somebody, "Please kill yourself now. Thanks." They'll just look at you dumbfounded for about 3 seconds (one Combat Turn, I think?), then shoot you in the face.

well, one combat turn is a long time if you face off against people with several IP's . .

Commanding Voice - Stop! Listen for a moment!
Enthralling Performance - (Public speaking as Performance skill)
Entertaining and convincing rant in which you explain to them that you're totally right and they should join you, supported by absurd amounts of Leadership dice.

" I know what you're thinking. I'm evil. I rape the environment. I murder children for profit. All true, I must confess. But I'm going to give you one very good reason why you can and should join me - dental plan. Come on now, my ork chummer, I see how you're clenching your jaw. You must be in some pain. When was the last time you had those tusks checked for cavities? If you and your friends holster your weapons and sign up with me, I promise that you'll be in a dentist's chair within the hour, or whenever is convenient for you. The best part is that there's no deductible. Absolutely nothing comes out of your pocket. How many other dental insurance plans can make that claim? None, that's how many."

that's comedy gold ^^

Oh yes....

Thread over, hyzmarca just won the intertubes.

Mark

BlackJack has several Missions under his belt, as well as, sections in Feral Cities and Ghost Cartels. This is not meant to be an extensive list, but things I remember off the top of my head.

didnt blackjack also have an awesome site with plenty of rules and goodies?

If I recall, Blackjack had a bunch of things discussing Philadelphia around. I lived 9 years in Philly, so seeing a Shadowrun site with stuff written by a guy from there was great, and most of those stories I read ran from the awesomely informed to stuff that made me laugh.

Besides what Hyzmarca said, the situation my players faced was this: They had finally cornered the BBEG, and were about to execute him when he said: "You don't want to do that." Now, they could either stand there slack-jawed and not shoot him, or just not shoot him. Didn't matter. They snapped out of it quickly enough, but before they could do anything else (he won initiative) he said: "You're gonna let me go"; again, they could stand there dazed as he walked away, or they could just let him walk away.

If you know what you're doing, three seconds of stunned confusion might just do everything you need.

There was an easy way out of there:
"You're right, we don't want to shoot you." *cue gagging sound followed by melee weapon sound/explosion/and so on.*

Most of the time, I don't ban things, but houserule things I (or my players) have a problem with. Most of the time, it's done as a consensus with my players, even if they're likely to accept things without questions from the GM. At least, I warn them about the change, and I'm still open to discussions about it.

"I had just decided to leave the kill to the troll, when the target said that I wouldn´t want to do that. I felt oddly compelled to do the deed myself."

ah, okay, i don't really read the missons stuff in case my GM's want to run them some time.
did not really have time to read feral cartels yet <.< . .

If homely unenhanced human with peak oratory skills can convince a whole country full of normal people to jump on the world domination and ethnic cleansing bandwagon, just imagine what a Dyrad with medically augmented attractiveness and magically augmented speaking ability can do with a bunch of morally impaired motherfraggers (some less figuratively than others) who already steal shit, kill people, and fuck with the most powerful entities on the planet for a living.


Certainly, if no person out ever pointed out that the warmaking power of the Axis forces was far less than that of the rest of the world combined, when measured in sheer manufacturing and manpower alone, then it is unlikely that guys who regularly fart in Damien Knight's cornflakes are gonna mind a little crazy work when the cute little Dyrad girl with the funny little mustache and that odd fancy for outdated eugenics proposals comes calling.


(Mental note: Farting in Damien Knight's cornflakes for money could make a great run. Must try it sometime. Johnson should be believably eccentric)

now i imagine a dryad girl with a porn-stache farting into a bowl of corn-flakes . .

Not really. They might be standing around in a stupor instead, achieving the same end.

We banned it by unanimous vote.

oh yeah! how the hell do you call this "unenchanced"
Actual historic document
Please Hyzmarca, your history is usually so spot on. It's well know that the National Socialist German Workers' Party had cyber-nazis with rocket launchers, and sophisticated Rasputin based occult division. If you think they wouldn't use that capacity for augmentation you're a naive fool!

Damn... pornstar contact... hummmmmmm.....

Yes! Thats it! Just what I need to finish off my retired Pro MMA Fighter character "Thomas Kane Ortiz" aka TKO. Fame (cuz MMA is crazy populer), Trust Fund (invested some of his prize money), and dating Jenna Sin (6/6 Pornstar Contact).

No magic (not allowed in the MMA league he competed in), picked up all his combat related bio in the last couple of years since he was lossing his edge (why he retired). Did some underground fights since, but the feel wasn't the same and the danger higher while the payouts a whole lot lower, he decided to try other things to get the same rush.

Damn... I was just trying to be funny, started getting into it, and now I gotta build this guy.

To be fair, we know magic flared up every now and then during the down time. Maybe, just maybe, Young Adolf just happened to be a social Adept. Considering his love of the occult and the fact he built himself a magical group it just might make sense from a sixth world point of view.