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Negalith
Are there are good refrences for what shadowrun Africa is like?
TheOOB
There is a section on cape town in runners companion, which is at the southern tip of africa.
Hagga
Runner Haven's does a good job of showing some of the southern areas.
bofh
There's some background info in Nosferatu (novel). Just finished reading it.

Carl
Warlordtheft
Cyberpirates covers the Ivory and gold coast as well as an interesting piece on Madagascar (FASA#7124 circa 1997),

Target awakened lands covers some sites in Africa as well(Fanpro#10651 circa 2001).

As well as tid bits in other books, paticularly the Europe book touches on the med and north Africa (desert wars, Libya is no longer on the Label!!, Thanks Isreal!!)
Jaid
the lagos chapter of feral cities gives a pretty decent concept of what the surrounding areas are like. i would recommend it if the cost is within your gaming budget.
Lance
If you really want to run in Africa AND dont want to make up everything yourself (which could be fun as well) and even then, you need the following:

Feral Cities (highest priority, as it provides background for the major city and its surroundings AND provides plenty of hints at the state of Africa alltogether)
Runner Havens (Capetown)
Cyberpirates (Pirate Coast in Western Africa)
Target Wastelands (Deserts)

One of my favourite runs was set in Africa, before I had any of these books. I used todays conditions, made them worse, added some SR flavour and voilà, Africa of the 6th world.

One of the advantages of this setting seems to be, that you have a lot of room to play with and can have large scale action scenes, without ruining your adventures. (that's one of the reasons we never play in Seattle... I always feel locked up, when I imagine GMing Seattle)
GreyBrother
Hmmm it's darn sad that there isn't a Shadows over Africa or stuff. Egypt would be really interesting.
hermit
A lot of the info on Cape Town is actually to be found in the out of print novel Nosferatu 2055.
ThreeGee
QUOTE
Egypt would be really interesting.


I'm pretty sure Egypts been mentioned at least once. Maybe in Year of the Comet? I seem to remember something about widespread physical transformations in the populace.
hermit
It featured, I think, in Target: Awakened Lands, a bit in Loose Alliances, Shadows of Asia, and Target: Smuggler havens. Again, if I'm not mistaken.
The Jake
QUOTE (Lance @ Dec 21 2008, 10:54 AM) *
If you really want to run in Africa AND dont want to make up everything yourself (which could be fun as well) and even then, you need the following:

Feral Cities (highest priority, as it provides background for the major city and its surroundings AND provides plenty of hints at the state of Africa alltogether)
Runner Havens (Capetown)
Cyberpirates (Pirate Coast in Western Africa)
Target Wastelands (Deserts)

One of my favourite runs was set in Africa, before I had any of these books. I used todays conditions, made them worse, added some SR flavour and voilà, Africa of the 6th world.

One of the advantages of this setting seems to be, that you have a lot of room to play with and can have large scale action scenes, without ruining your adventures. (that's one of the reasons we never play in Seattle... I always feel locked up, when I imagine GMing Seattle)



This REALLY shits me.

Azania (and Amazonia for that matter) are two settings in Shadowrun that have been TOUCHED ON but NEVER DETAILED. The brief writeup on Capte Town in Runner Havens doesn't cut the mustard. We've been waiting on this for nearly 20 years and what we get are bits and pieces, scattered between 5 books (counting novels) to get enough information and to do that, you have to be following the game for many years to learn that much. I have been hoping and praying for every world/location book to expand on these two countries. Everytime I've been disappointed.

A skilled GM could improvise if these places were unchanged by SR authors have done so much remodelling that they are barely recognisable when compared to their contemporary counterparts.

We deserve a LOT more than that on these two countries. They've been largely ignored and deserve a MUCH more detailed writeup.

I sincerely hope there is a plan to rectify this situation.

- J.
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (The Jake @ Dec 21 2008, 09:09 AM) *
This REALLY shits me.

Azania (and Amazonia for that matter) are two settings in Shadowrun that have been TOUCHED ON but NEVER DETAILED. The brief writeup on Capte Town in Runner Havens doesn't cut the mustard. We've been waiting on this for nearly 20 years and what we get are bits and pieces, scattered between 5 books (counting novels) to get enough information and to do that, you have to be following the game for many years to learn that much. I have been hoping and praying for every world/location book to expand on these two countries. Everytime I've been disappointed.

A skilled GM could improvise if these places were unchanged by SR authors have done so much remodelling that they are barely recognisable when compared to their contemporary counterparts.

We deserve a LOT more than that on these two countries. They've been largely ignored and deserve a MUCH more detailed writeup.

I sincerely hope there is a plan to rectify this situation.

- J.


Asmondo should also be in that book. A target awakened lands II perhaps?
Snow_Fox
Target Awakened Lands gives some stuff in passing on Egypt. Some of the books reference an elven nation or an elven Zulu nation which would put it on the south eastern coast, northern South Africa, southern Zimbabwe.

There was also a reference to a ghoul nation.
Hagga
Asamando, and the Queen Ghoul. RC has a variant ghoul with +1 reach that comes from there, also runs on all fours. They've got a lot of diamonds and gold, which the Queen, who is essentially a dictator, negotiates with DeBeers Omnitech and a biotech company for moneys.
hermit
I don't get why noone has yet nuked the ghouls out of existence. The explanation with fear of becoming ghoul chow really means nothing against an aerial effort to smash any larger settlement with aerosol bombs; the remaining ghouls could easily be mopped up with combat drones. Noone must fear to be gradually eaten then. All damn ghoulies are dead. Everyone wins (except the infected, but they shouldn't anyway).
Snow_Fox
Because if ares Macrotechnologies used its tech to destroy all the ghouls world wide, like they did in Chicago, then there would be no more ghouls.
No more ghouls means no more income from selling smaller batches of the anti-ghoul tech.
hermit
Who says it has to be Ares? Ares isn't the only force with some military assets around. Aztech, for instance, combines military might, willingness for genocide and no interest in pest fighting services (they prefer to have the jungle and strip mines for themselves, since that's more like their core business).
Jaid
because the ghouls in asamando are filthy stinking rich, and can shoot down aircraft just like anyone else, and can hide in bunkers, etc, while their anti-air guns (which are likely a great deal cheaper than your aircraft) do all the work.

you can't take land with an airforce, either. germany bombed england like crazy for quite a while in WWII, but never took it over, because in order to do that you have to land somewhere and control the ground from the ground. so nonsense like "oh, they can just destroy them from the air" is just that; nonsense.
Red_Cap
Germany didn't have genetically engineered bioweapons at their disposal, though. I'm sure that most of the megas' R&D sections could (or already have) whipped up some sort of virus or bacteria that attacks only HMHVV carriers.

In point of fact, I smell an idea for a run coming up. . .
hermit
QUOTE
because the ghouls in asamando are filthy stinking rich, and can shoot down aircraft just like anyone else, and can hide in bunkers, etc, while their anti-air guns (which are likely a great deal cheaper than your aircraft) do all the work.

That will really help them survive aerosol bombs dropped by high-flying bombers. And how exactly will they operate these AA sytsems, except as drones? They're BLIND. And astral sight isn't too good at making out machines in great distances. Also, you could just drop FAB 3 there, if you were really militant.

QUOTE
you can't take land with an airforce, either.

I'm not talking about subduing, I'm talking about extermination. And hitting the population centers would only be the first step. Then, you'd mop up the rest with magic, spirits, and drones. All of which any decent army has by now. Likely, many neighbouring countries would gladly donate spirits to that cause, either if you promise them a cut of the mines, or because they really dislike being eaten.

QUOTE
germany bombed england like crazy for quite a while in WWII

While I agree with you, that was nothing against the air wars of today.
Damage
Nairobi, Kenya, has a small section in the Corporate Enclaves book.
hermit
Good point, thanks.
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 21 2008, 02:39 PM) *
Who says it has to be Ares? Ares isn't the only force with some military assets around. Aztech, for instance, combines military might, willingness for genocide and no interest in pest fighting services (they prefer to have the jungle and strip mines for themselves, since that's more like their core business).


The Corps that have business relations with them.that is the reason they aren't blasted off the map. I mean the more mindless gouls make great day laborerers. They also work cheap (for food).
hermit
I refuse to see where mindless ghouls do make good labourers, except maybe clobbering stones in strip mines. They're BLIND, so most sweat shop work is out for them (and having HMHVV all over your products won't be good for sales either, I think).

And why pay them when you can just bomb them flat, take their stuff, pay nothing anymore AND have a good PR boost, at least with the locals?
Red_Cap
Boos, I like your way of thinking. Very efficient, in a Soviet sort of way.
hermit
Von der Sovietunion lernen heisst Siegen lernen!

Also, it IS how Aztech works.
The Jake
QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Dec 21 2008, 04:12 PM) *
Asmondo should also be in that book. A target awakened lands II perhaps?


*smacks forehead*

HOW did I miss THAT?

Good point.

I thought Azania was the ghoul nation, not Asmondo.

GAH! THIS IS WHY WE NEED A BOOK ON THESE PLACES DAMMIT. ARE YOU READING THIS WRITERS???

*shakes fist at the sky*

- J.
PlatonicPimp
QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 21 2008, 11:51 PM) *
That will really help them survive aerosol bombs dropped by high-flying bombers. And how exactly will they operate these AA sytsems, except as drones? They're BLIND. And astral sight isn't too good at making out machines in great distances.


Oddly enough, being physically blind isn't that big an issue for ghouls. First and foremost, they're blind because their eyes rot out. This is, by canon, easily fixable with cybereyes. Also, because the brain parts for vision are still intact, VR still works for our Ghoulie friends. So those ghouls will be rigging the AA guns.
Tiger Eyes
QUOTE (The Jake @ Dec 22 2008, 09:42 AM) *
*smacks forehead*

HOW did I miss THAT?

Good point.

I thought Azania was the ghoul nation, not Asmondo.

GAH! THIS IS WHY WE NEED A BOOK ON THESE PLACES DAMMIT. ARE YOU READING THIS WRITERS???

*shakes fist at the sky*

- J.


Ah, Feral Cities does actually have a writeup on Asamando. It is a near neighbor to Lagos.
hermit
QUOTE
Oddly enough, being physically blind isn't that big an issue for ghouls. First and foremost, they're blind because their eyes rot out. This is, by canon, easily fixable with cybereyes. Also, because the brain parts for vision are still intact, VR still works for our Ghoulie friends. So those ghouls will be rigging the AA guns.

The infected rules in SR4 really are making an effort to win the Bullshit Oscar.
Bashfull
QUOTE (Jaid @ Dec 21 2008, 01:51 AM) *
I used todays conditions, made them worse, added some SR flavour and voilà, Africa of the 6th world.


How do you make them worse than they already are? Genocide, pandemics, dictators and corruption, and that's just Zimbabwe. We could add Congo, Sudan, Ethiopia...

Even the 'prosperous' South Africa, host to the next Football World Cup, has rationed electricity, rampant AIDS and crime and can boast that it's next President was not found guilty of either rape or corruption at the respective trials. frown.gif
hermit
Please don't forget the locals recently set refugees from Simbabwe on fire because they don't like illegal immigrants.
The Jake
QUOTE (Tiger Eyes @ Dec 22 2008, 06:42 PM) *
Ah, Feral Cities does actually have a writeup on Asamando. It is a near neighbor to Lagos.


Will this be a proper writeup or another one page brief?

- J.
FlakJacket
QUOTE (The Jake @ Dec 21 2008, 02:09 PM) *
Wah wah wah

Jesus wept feel entitled much? Out of interest did you ever try submitting a proposal to cover part of the area yourself? Worked out pretty well for the EuroSB crew, and a number of the freelancers that started out that way.


QUOTE (GreyBrother @ Dec 21 2008, 11:10 AM) *
Hmmm it's darn sad that there isn't a Shadows over Africa or stuff. Egypt would be really interesting.

There have been a few mentions for Egypt but nothing major which is a little surprising considering it's one of the largest city in the Middle East - yeah yeah I know technically it's in Northern Africa, but I count Egypt and most of the Maghreb as a bonus part of the Middle East smile.gif - and is highly influential culturally from what I've been told.

The main points are that when Libya got nuked by Israel Egypt annexed the shattered remains of the country and rent it out to host the Desert Wars, that the place is home to a numerous power sites along the Nile valley and astral echoes of ancient buildings that look as they did thousands of years ago, there's a bit of a spat between the local Islamic mullahs and groups that moved back towards worshipping the ancient Egyptian gods in a shamanistic way and that about 40 or so people turned up in Alexandria claiming to be the reincarnations of ancient Egyptians and able to read hieroglyphics better than the scholars and able to speak ancient Egyptian despite being from lower class backgrounds and minimally educated. Of course all of that is circa 2062 so God knows what the situation in by the 2070s.
Snow_Fox
QUOTE (Bashfull @ Dec 22 2008, 05:30 PM) *
How do you make them worse than they already are? Genocide, pandemics, dictators and corruption, and that's just Zimbabwe. We could add Congo, Sudan, Ethiopia...

well they turn into cannabistic subhumans who try and eat the tourist trade then convince normal huimans they are not a threat.

I choose ares because they were the ones that developed the anti-bug spray that cleaned out Chicago and was found to be fatal for ghouls too. My point still stands though, if all the ghouls are gone, there's no need for the product line, keep the metas around and you keep the market.
Prospero
It's not all that hard to figure why no one bombs Asamondo into dust - what corp would want to spend the nuyen.gif ? Instead of forking over all the cash for the huge carpet bombing, which involves serious use of major military assets (never cheap) as well as getting other corps to not attempt to use the naked aggression against the attacking corp by getting the UN or some other sort of crazy red tape involved (causing a massacre, etc) why not just let the ghouls have the place and do all the mining/hard-work for you?

After a carpet-bombing, any corp would have to deal with big background counts (from long periods of ghoul inhabitation and total destruction of the environment by bombing), the remote area/logistical problems, finding workers to work the sites, finding the sites themselves, setting up shop there with all the necessary equipment, fighting off independants/rivals possibly, potential major long-term endemic shedim infestation attracted by all the bodies, the lingering potential for infection by HMHVV, rock-bottom morale for any workers there pretty much forever... it'd be a nightmare. Why not just payt he ghouls their pittance for whatever they mine? If they eat a few people from neighboring city-states/countries, what do the corps care? And what can their really disorganized neighbors actually do about it?

Plus, it's a natural dumping ground for what could easily be an insurmountable problem for many countries (and I use the term loosely) in the area - the spread of HMHVV.
hermit
QUOTE
It's not all that hard to figure why no one bombs Asamondo into dust - what corp would want to spend the nuyen.gif ? Instead of forking over all the cash for the huge carpet bombing, which involves serious use of major military assets (never cheap) as well as getting other corps to not attempt to use the naked aggression against the attacking corp by getting the UN or some other sort of crazy red tape involved (causing a massacre, etc) why not just let the ghouls have the place and do all the mining/hard-work for you?

It's called an investment.

Also, who gave a damn about Aztech's treatment of Yucatan? Noone would care if they laid waste to Asamondo and took the place over. The neighbouring zones/countries would likely applause, though. And maybe be a lot more favourable towards Aztech in the future. Because, y'know, Africans aren't more keen on being eaten than other people.

QUOTE
After a carpet-bombing, any corp would have to deal with big background counts (from long periods of ghoul inhabitation and total destruction of the environment by bombing), the remote area/logistical problems, finding workers to work the sites, finding the sites themselves, setting up shop there with all the necessary equipment, fighting off independants/rivals possibly, potential major long-term endemic shedim infestation attracted by all the bodies, the lingering potential for infection by HMHVV rock-bottom morale for any workers there pretty much forever...

Since SR corps build arcologies en masse in places like the SOX, I really see no problem there. And as for worker morale ... people work for Aztech and are happy. People in the SR world are apparently easily satisfied. Also, HMHVV isn't going to linger around for too long, especially if you make good use of FAB III to take care of it and those nasty critters Africa's jungles hold. Don't tell me that wouldn't be Aztech standard MO.

QUOTE
Why not just payt he ghouls their pittance for whatever they mine?

Because it's cheaper in the long run, and SR megacorps DO plan for the long run, because otherwise they'd have gone the way of Leman Bros' before the original setting kicked off?

QUOTE
Plus, it's a natural dumping ground for what could easily be an insurmountable problem for many countries (and I use the term loosely) in the area - the spread of HMHVV.

Containment and elimination are far more sensible approaches to SR's lingering zombie holocaust problems. What good does it do you to dump the Infected someplace where they can arm and organise themselves and eventually will come back to get you, huh?
Grinder
QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 22 2008, 08:45 PM) *
The infected rules in SR4 really are making an effort to win the Bullshit Oscar.


Did SR1-3 have the better rules on that? wink.gif
hermit
QUOTE
Did SR1-3 have the better rules on that?

Relevance to the current rules being crap?
Grinder
Ah, minor details. grinbig.gif
hermit
Grinder fails at trolling.
Grinder
I never tried to. grinbig.gif
GreyBrother
Flak Jacket: Yeah, that's what i thought. I once tried to do a Fansourcebook about Egypt with what i had (surprisingly, i didn't know about the fight of the Muslims against the Pantheists but worked it in). But after ten or so pages i deleted it since it sounded to fanboyish to me... not "thought through".
My auntie liked it, though grinbig.gif
Wesley Street
You shouldn't give up simply because your first draft sounds fanboy-ish. Unless you're a super-humanly gifted writer, all works go through several revision processes. Find a friend who is familiar with the setting and material to read it and give you pointers on what to keep and what to chop.

And that's why pencils have erasers. smile.gif
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 23 2008, 05:03 AM) *
Containment and elimination are far more sensible approaches to SR's lingering zombie holocaust problems. What good does it do you to dump the Infected someplace where they can arm and organise themselves and eventually will come back to get you, huh?


Zombies and ghouls are different critters. Anyway, massive use of FABIII might have unintended consequences. You mentioned the Yucatan, notice it is no longer Aztech controlled?

Asmondo only threatens the nearby countries (and in Africa that term is used very loosely), and as long as one of the big 10 gets more out of working with Asmondo than attacking it the country will still exist. Probably more than one corp has deals with them.

Your assuming that the costs of wiping out Asmondo and replacing the infrastructure (what little there is) is less than the costs of having to deal with what is already there. I would say it is the other way around. My reasoning is that logistics in Africa are a bitch, so if you can rely on locals you would.
hermit
QUOTE
Zombies and ghouls are different critters.

By name, yes. By background, the Ghouls are very much the Zombies from movies such as 28 days later.

QUOTE
You mentioned the Yucatan, notice it is no longer Aztech controlled?

Because they increased background count by mass murder and because Amazonia backed the Yucks, yes. Not because that always happens to agressors in SR. Just look at the Russians and Yakut.

QUOTE
Asmondo only threatens the nearby countries

... and one of the few remaining oil-rich regions and the investments made there ...

QUOTE
as long as one of the big 10 gets more out of working with Asmondo than attacking it the country will still exist.

Yes. My point is that, other than the setting claims, they shouldn't. What do the ghoulies have to offer? Some tin and gold. Yay. It's not like they have a monopoly on that. Like Niger's Delta pretty much has on oil.

Asamondo is still there because the Ghoulies 'need' a homeland,a s do other Infected, since theya're all PC now and so on (Shadowrun trying to be the new oWoD and all). Nothing else explains it's existence. Well, that and Mary-Sue, inc. backing.
GreyBrother
QUOTE (Wesley Street @ Dec 23 2008, 02:52 PM) *
*snip*

Sure, but believe me, it was cheesy to begin with and reworking it was on my list. I started the thing actually with trying to write up a Egyptian Heka Tradition that made sense in SR3 times.
It expanded, but i am quite scatterbrained. Maybe one day i will write it up anew and then i mail it to catalyst and make myself immortal grinbig.gif
Prospero
QUOTE (hermit @ Dec 23 2008, 10:03 AM) *
It's called an investment.


Right, but this would be a horrible one.

QUOTE
Also, who gave a damn about Aztech's treatment of Yucatan?


A lot of people, actually. The forces Aztechnology had there (ergo not other places) were pretty much directly responsible for them loosing Denver and getting beat to L.A. by Pueblo. Even if only a few groups really pulled for the locals, LOTS of groups funnelled arms/training/etc to screw with Aztech. If Aztech commits militarily to Asamondo, they'll have another Yucatan on their hands except it's MUCH farther away and therefore more expensive.

QUOTE
Noone would care if they laid waste to Asamondo and took the place over. The neighbouring zones/countries would likely applause, though. And maybe be a lot more favourable towards Aztech in the future. Because, y'know, Africans aren't more keen on being eaten than other people.


Maybe. But Aztech can get whatever they want in those areas anyway. It's not like those places are big customers or anything.

QUOTE
Since SR corps build arcologies en masse in places like the SOX, I really see no problem there.


What major en masse corp arcologies are in the SOX? Corp acologies are in safe, well-controlled environments. There might be research bases in other places like the SOX, but arcologies?

QUOTE
And as for worker morale ... people work for Aztech and are happy. People in the SR world are apparently easily satisfied.


Aztech can probably find people to work for them in a former Asamondo, but happy? Aztech workers are happy? Would you be happy to be sent to open a grocery store in, say, Somalia after you military just came in a attempted a genocide on the country? There's no way they could have even cleaned up all the bodies. You'd be operating in some really BAD conditions and I bet you'd want some extra pay to do that.

QUOTE
Also, HMHVV isn't going to linger around for too long, especially if you make good use of FAB III to take care of it and those nasty critters Africa's jungles hold. Don't tell me that wouldn't be Aztech standard MO.


I don't know how long it lingers. But it's not like you're going to kill every single solitary ghoul around. The ghouls would wage a guerrilla campaign. There will be ghouls and they will possibly migrate elsewhere (if they're smart enough) or, if not, they'll stick around like cunning animals, feed off the poor, underpaid, local workforce that has just been put into place (and doesn't know the area) and spread their infection. Putting up tons of security just isn't cost-effective and, hey, to Aztechnology life is cheap if we're talking about grunt workers in the tin-mines, so who cares.

If you use tons of FAB III you'll destroy the ghouls, yes, but you'll also just kill huge amounts of wildlife, destroy the ecosystem, get the rest of the world after you for releasing FAB III into an uncontrolled environement where it can spread with possibly no limits (prevailing winds... worldwide shipping port nearby... little control of the environment...), and possibly create a bunch of mana-warps. That's not even a realistic option any group could use except Winternight or some cult like that.

QUOTE
Because it's cheaper in the long run, and SR megacorps DO plan for the long run, because otherwise they'd have gone the way of Leman Bros' before the original setting kicked off?


Not cheaper in the long run. To set up a comparison - think about how much it cost per month, for example, the U.S. to fight a war in Iraq (at the beginning of operations, pre-insurgency/surge/etc). A lot. Then think about how much it costs for companies in the U.S. to get, say, diamonds from Liberia. Why would the U.S. invade Liberia, slaughter the population (say there's a quasi-legit excuse for that), and set up an entire infrastructure in a place that has very very little in the way of any modern infrastructure (way way worse than Afghanistan, even) and put people in place to run it in order to set up diamond mines when they can pay the people already there a pittance for the diamonds they want (conveniently ignoring the money is being used for bad ends)? It just doesn't make sense.

QUOTE
Containment and elimination are far more sensible approaches to SR's lingering zombie holocaust problems. What good does it do you to dump the Infected someplace where they can arm and organise themselves and eventually will come back to get you, huh?


Elimination is a great idea theoretically, yeah, but think about how long the world has been attempting to eliminate other major diseases - say malaria, for example. Not so much sucess, really. How will eliminating HMHVV be easier? Since many countries in SR have shown a penchant for just walling up problem areas and leaving them alone as long as they don't bother anyone too much, why wouldn't that happen with ghouls in Africa?
Red_Cap
Wiping out Asamondo isn't an issue. Sure, it would be disgustingly difficult to achieve a complete 100% kill ratio and the offending faction would become a pariah to a good part of the rest of the world, but with enough resources it could be done. Therefore, it simply isn't cost effective. What's the point of a megacorp doing all of that to get at Asamondo's diamond supply if no one is going to buy said diamonds?

A much better solution is to put all your problems into one place, meaning that you round out as many ghouls as possible and ship them to Asamondo, thereby depleting the ghoul population where it's a threat to "civilized" society and increasing it where A.) they can be among their own kind, and B.) they can be used as cheap labor to extract the aforementioned diamonds.
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