Page 62 says that for each point of essence below 6, you lose a point of magic. Does this apply at chargen? Or can I buy my cyberware, and then buy magic up to the new maximum?
Seems like a dumb question, but I can't find an answer, and there are a lot of build points riding on this.
Full Version: Magic vs. Essense
QUOTE (wind_in_the_stones @ Dec 23 2008, 06:13 AM) 
Page 62 says that for each point of essence below 6, you lose a point of magic. Does this apply at chargen? Or can I buy my cyberware, and then buy magic up to the new maximum?
Seems like a dumb question, but I can't find an answer, and there are a lot of build points riding on this.
Seems like a dumb question, but I can't find an answer, and there are a lot of build points riding on this.
It applies right away. Essence limits the starting maximum of both Magic and Resonance, as they are tied to how "pure" your aura/body is.
I know it limits your magic, but my question is whether the reduced essence then reduces the magic rating that you already spent build points on.
In answer to the first question you asked ("Does this apply at chargen?")
Short Answer: Yup.
Long Answer: Yup, balance reasons.
Short Answer: Yup.
Long Answer: Yup, balance reasons.
Not that I'm saying it's not canon, but I am still waiting for someone to actually quote canon text that states that the 'phantom' Magic Points (potential points that are lost due to implants, etc.) must be paid for with Build Points.
As a counterpoint, I offer up Latent Awakening, which provides a Magic Point regardless of the person's Essence rating. Those 'phantom' points that would be lost due to any implants are not paid for with either Karma or Build Points.
As a counterpoint, I offer up Latent Awakening, which provides a Magic Point regardless of the person's Essence rating. Those 'phantom' points that would be lost due to any implants are not paid for with either Karma or Build Points.
You requested, and we provided. Multiple times. Yet again, here are the damn quotes.
QUOTE (Shadowrun 4 p.84)
Note that any attribute boosts gained from implants do not
aff ect other aspects of character creation—a boost to Logic, for example,
does not increase the Knowledge skills you start with.
Any reductions to a character’s Essence will also aff ect his
Magic or Resonance (see p. 62).
aff ect other aspects of character creation—a boost to Logic, for example,
does not increase the Knowledge skills you start with.
Any reductions to a character’s Essence will also aff ect his
Magic or Resonance (see p. 62).
QUOTE (Shadowrun 4 p.62)
Characters with Magic or Resonance attributes are subject
to penalties if they have an Essence lower than 6. For each point
or partial point of Essence below 6, the character loses 1 full
point from her Magic or Resonance and the maximum for that
attribute is reduced by 1. Th e maximum rating for Magic is 6 +
initiation grade (see Initiation, p. 189); for Resonance the maximum
rating is 6 + submersion grade (see Submersion, p. 238).
to penalties if they have an Essence lower than 6. For each point
or partial point of Essence below 6, the character loses 1 full
point from her Magic or Resonance and the maximum for that
attribute is reduced by 1. Th e maximum rating for Magic is 6 +
initiation grade (see Initiation, p. 189); for Resonance the maximum
rating is 6 + submersion grade (see Submersion, p. 238).
Page 84 states "Any reductions to a character's Essense will also affect his Magic or Resonance."
Page 62 states "Characters with Magic or Resonance attributes are subject to penalties if they have an Essence lower than 6."
Nowhere that I have seen in the book does it ever talk about only limiting the maximum Magic - it always talks about Magic loss, too.
I've quoted those before. They seem absolutely, completely, and unambiguously clear to me, but Fortune isn't convinced by them. I imagine most GMs are, though.
The only thing muddying up the waters is the Latent Awakening quality, but that is introduced in Street Magic, and follows its own rules (since Latent Awakening wouldn't be possible under normal char-gen rules).
Page 62 states "Characters with Magic or Resonance attributes are subject to penalties if they have an Essence lower than 6."
Nowhere that I have seen in the book does it ever talk about only limiting the maximum Magic - it always talks about Magic loss, too.
I've quoted those before. They seem absolutely, completely, and unambiguously clear to me, but Fortune isn't convinced by them. I imagine most GMs are, though.
The only thing muddying up the waters is the Latent Awakening quality, but that is introduced in Street Magic, and follows its own rules (since Latent Awakening wouldn't be possible under normal char-gen rules).
Glyph, Muspellsheimr, the two quotes that you refer to also don't say anything about the reduction applying at character gen. What I think Fortune is asking is for clarification from Synner or another CGL employee to come out and say: "Yes you have to buy Magic up and THEN reduce it by the appropriate amount due to 'Ware."
I also think it's a little unfair to Mages because they have to pay for the 'Ware twice over. Once in BP to get the 'ware and then again to buy magic up to what they want and then one more level because of the 'ware.
I also think it's a little unfair to Mages because they have to pay for the 'Ware twice over. Once in BP to get the 'ware and then again to buy magic up to what they want and then one more level because of the 'ware.
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Dec 23 2008, 01:39 AM)
Glyph, Muspellsheimr, the two quotes that you refer to also don't say anything about the reduction applying at character gen. What I think Fortune is asking is for clarification from Synner or another CGL employee to come out and say: "Yes you have to buy Magic up and THEN reduce it by the appropriate amount due to 'Ware."
I also think it's a little unfair to Mages because they have to pay for the 'Ware twice over. Once in BP to get the 'ware and then again to buy magic up to what they want and then one more level because of the 'ware.
I also think it's a little unfair to Mages because they have to pay for the 'Ware twice over. Once in BP to get the 'ware and then again to buy magic up to what they want and then one more level because of the 'ware.
Honestly, I'm okay with that. The sorts of things you can pull off when you mix 'ware and magic are pretty obscene as it is.
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Dec 23 2008, 09:39 AM)
Glyph, Muspellsheimr, the two quotes that you refer to also don't say anything about the reduction applying at character gen. What I think Fortune is asking is for clarification from Synner or another CGL employee to come out and say: "Yes you have to buy Magic up and THEN reduce it by the appropriate amount due to 'Ware."
I also think it's a little unfair to Mages because they have to pay for the 'Ware twice over. Once in BP to get the 'ware and then again to buy magic up to what they want and then one more level because of the 'ware.
I also think it's a little unfair to Mages because they have to pay for the 'Ware twice over. Once in BP to get the 'ware and then again to buy magic up to what they want and then one more level because of the 'ware.
I agree with this post 100%. I am asking myself the same question as Fortune.
While the rules are clear on Magic Loss, they are NOT clear on the process at character creation the order of precidence in which purchasing magic and cyberware should be applied (which would clarify this question).
Personally as of SR4 it seems to me mages get the short end of the stick as it is and it wouldn't hurt to cut them some slack.
- J.
I disagree, 'ware + magic = sick power combinations. The added cost of burnt magic is an important balancing factor.
QUOTE (ornot @ Dec 23 2008, 12:36 PM)
I disagree, 'ware + magic = sick power combinations. The added cost of burnt magic is an important balancing factor.
My understanding here is that no-one is disputing the lost Magic point or the reduced maximum for that attribute.
What we're discussing is the order of precidence in which you need to invest points into the Magic attribute during character creation.
Everyone is well aware of the consequences of cyberware implantation on a magician once the game has begun.
- J.
Let me see if I got this right – there are two schools of thought:
1) Buy your magic up, implant cyber-ware reduce you current magic and max magic by 1 for every point (or part thereof) of essence lost.
e.g: Magician (15bp), 4 points of magic (40bp), 0.95 essence of cyber/bio (#bp) – Final magic rating 4 (costing 55bp + cyber)
2) Buy magician, implant cyber-ware, reducing maximum magic, then buy magic up
e.g: Magician (15bp), 0.95 essence of cyber/bio (#bp), 3 points of magic (30bp) – Final magic rating 4 (costing 45bp + cyber)
Have I got this right?
However since the rules state that since any time you lose essence you also lose magic current and maximum, surely if you hadn’t bought up your magic from 1 as soon as you implant even a delta grade datajack bam instant burnout .
What I’d allow is someone to buy the latent awakening merit and then pay full price for which magical type they wanted to be – as I don’t see why latent awakenings can only happen in game time – this has the added benefit of consistency
As for the argument that since the rules don’t say that you lose current magic during character creation – the converse is also true they don’t say that you don’t lose current rating, the flow of the book including character creation examples shows purchasing stats (including magic and edge) as the second thing and gear as the last.
1) Buy your magic up, implant cyber-ware reduce you current magic and max magic by 1 for every point (or part thereof) of essence lost.
e.g: Magician (15bp), 4 points of magic (40bp), 0.95 essence of cyber/bio (#bp) – Final magic rating 4 (costing 55bp + cyber)
2) Buy magician, implant cyber-ware, reducing maximum magic, then buy magic up
e.g: Magician (15bp), 0.95 essence of cyber/bio (#bp), 3 points of magic (30bp) – Final magic rating 4 (costing 45bp + cyber)
Have I got this right?
However since the rules state that since any time you lose essence you also lose magic current and maximum, surely if you hadn’t bought up your magic from 1 as soon as you implant even a delta grade datajack bam instant burnout .
What I’d allow is someone to buy the latent awakening merit and then pay full price for which magical type they wanted to be – as I don’t see why latent awakenings can only happen in game time – this has the added benefit of consistency
As for the argument that since the rules don’t say that you lose current magic during character creation – the converse is also true they don’t say that you don’t lose current rating, the flow of the book including character creation examples shows purchasing stats (including magic and edge) as the second thing and gear as the last.
QUOTE (Ustio @ Dec 23 2008, 12:55 PM)
Let me see if I got this right – there are two schools of thought:
1) Buy your magic up, implant cyber-ware reduce you current magic and max magic by 1 for every point (or part thereof) of essence lost.
e.g: Magician (15bp), 4 points of magic (40bp), 0.95 essence of cyber/bio (#bp) – Final magic rating 4 (costing 55bp + cyber)
2) Buy magician, implant cyber-ware, reducing maximum magic, then buy magic up
e.g: Magician (15bp), 0.95 essence of cyber/bio (#bp), 3 points of magic (30bp) – Final magic rating 4 (costing 45bp + cyber)
Have I got this right?
1) Buy your magic up, implant cyber-ware reduce you current magic and max magic by 1 for every point (or part thereof) of essence lost.
e.g: Magician (15bp), 4 points of magic (40bp), 0.95 essence of cyber/bio (#bp) – Final magic rating 4 (costing 55bp + cyber)
2) Buy magician, implant cyber-ware, reducing maximum magic, then buy magic up
e.g: Magician (15bp), 0.95 essence of cyber/bio (#bp), 3 points of magic (30bp) – Final magic rating 4 (costing 45bp + cyber)
Have I got this right?
Spot on.
QUOTE
However since the rules state that since any time you lose essence you also lose magic current and maximum, surely if you hadn’t bought up your magic from 1 as soon as you implant even a delta grade datajack bam instant burnout .
Hence the question.
QUOTE
What I’d allow is someone to buy the latent awakening merit and then pay full price for which magical type they wanted to be – as I don’t see why latent awakenings can only happen in game time – this has the added benefit of consistency
As for the argument that since the rules don’t say that you lose current magic during character creation – the converse is also true they don’t say that you don’t lose current rating, the flow of the book including character creation examples shows purchasing stats (including magic and edge) as the second thing and gear as the last.
As for the argument that since the rules don’t say that you lose current magic during character creation – the converse is also true they don’t say that you don’t lose current rating, the flow of the book including character creation examples shows purchasing stats (including magic and edge) as the second thing and gear as the last.
Yep, that's about the only thing we have to go by as well.
Would be nice to see an official answer on this.
- J.
A while back I asked this of Peter or Adam and this is the answer they gave me.
QUOTE
Hi Chris,
> Dear Adam or Peter,
>
> I have an issue that has cropped up in my group. I have a missions
> commando playing who insists that at character creation you have 6
> VIRTUAL magic points for an Awakened character. Even if he spends the
> BPs to obtain a 5 as his magic score. By virtue of the 6 virtual
> points he can input a single point of cyber/bio/nano ware and still
> retain a 5 in magic. This only lowers his Virtual Magic cap to 5.
There is no such thing as a "virtual Magic" rating in SR4. You buy a Magic-granting Quality and then buy up your effective Magic rating with BPs during CharGen (or Karma later). Every piece of ware implanted subtracts directly from that (one and only) Magic rating (ie. your Essence Loss is subtracted from the Magic you actually possess regardless of when it is bought.
> As I read in the RAW not only does this lower you magic cap to 5 but
> it also costs you a point in magic lowering your Magic Rating to 4.
> ie Magic 5 (4).
> I explained to him the steps in creating a character are listed in
> order of precedence in creating a shadowrunner section of the Core
> Rules.
> Step 1 Choose MetaType
> Step 2 Assign Attributes (including special attributes edge/magic/
> resonace)
> Step 3 Assign Skills
> Step 4 Resources
> Finishing Touches Calculate Magic/Resonance losses due to cyber and so
> forth.
> My player states that he can awaken at any time during character
> creation and thus could already have inplanted cyber then decide to
> have the character awaken and buy his Magic rating at such time.
> This is due to the fact that the player states there are no official
> steps in creation. You can do the steps in any order.
Your player is correct that there is no defined sequence to the different options in Character Generation. However, there are aspects of character creation which need to be sequential. For instance the metatype (or race/metavariant/etc) ALWAYS needs to be chosen before gear because it impacts the cost of gear (ie. because of adaptation for trolls and dwarves), similarly metatype sets the Attribute minimums and maximums and hence must be chosen before allocation of attribute points (since it will impact the BP cost of hard capped attributes which vary from metatype to metatype). Similarly Essence calculations apply AFTER BPs have been spent on buying one of the Magical Qualities and after raising the Magic Attribute. To reiterate: Essence Loss is subtracted from the Magic rating you actually possess (there is no "Virtual" Magic Rating) reducing both your current Magic and your Magic cap. This means it is done AFTER everything else has been sorted out (after raising the Magic Attribute and buying Essence-sucking ware during Resource allocation).
> Now I know in all past editions of SR the mage takes a hit on Magic
> due to essence at CharGen. He states the rules do not state this
> during Character Generation only. This is a new edition and Mages
> should not be penalized this way if it does not state so. I cannot
> find an official wording in the Core Book, Street Magic or Runners
> Companion.
You can inform the player that under SR4, a Magician always takes a direct hit to his (now variable) Magic Rating when implanting 'ware whether it's implanted at character generation or in play. This is integral to the game.
> Can you help me please. I do understand you are both very busy with
> GenCon and understand if you cannot get back to me soon, but I really
> do need an answer to this.
Hope that helps.
Peter Taylor
Shadowrun Line Developer for Catalyst Game Labs
> Dear Adam or Peter,
>
> I have an issue that has cropped up in my group. I have a missions
> commando playing who insists that at character creation you have 6
> VIRTUAL magic points for an Awakened character. Even if he spends the
> BPs to obtain a 5 as his magic score. By virtue of the 6 virtual
> points he can input a single point of cyber/bio/nano ware and still
> retain a 5 in magic. This only lowers his Virtual Magic cap to 5.
There is no such thing as a "virtual Magic" rating in SR4. You buy a Magic-granting Quality and then buy up your effective Magic rating with BPs during CharGen (or Karma later). Every piece of ware implanted subtracts directly from that (one and only) Magic rating (ie. your Essence Loss is subtracted from the Magic you actually possess regardless of when it is bought.
> As I read in the RAW not only does this lower you magic cap to 5 but
> it also costs you a point in magic lowering your Magic Rating to 4.
> ie Magic 5 (4).
> I explained to him the steps in creating a character are listed in
> order of precedence in creating a shadowrunner section of the Core
> Rules.
> Step 1 Choose MetaType
> Step 2 Assign Attributes (including special attributes edge/magic/
> resonace)
> Step 3 Assign Skills
> Step 4 Resources
> Finishing Touches Calculate Magic/Resonance losses due to cyber and so
> forth.
> My player states that he can awaken at any time during character
> creation and thus could already have inplanted cyber then decide to
> have the character awaken and buy his Magic rating at such time.
> This is due to the fact that the player states there are no official
> steps in creation. You can do the steps in any order.
Your player is correct that there is no defined sequence to the different options in Character Generation. However, there are aspects of character creation which need to be sequential. For instance the metatype (or race/metavariant/etc) ALWAYS needs to be chosen before gear because it impacts the cost of gear (ie. because of adaptation for trolls and dwarves), similarly metatype sets the Attribute minimums and maximums and hence must be chosen before allocation of attribute points (since it will impact the BP cost of hard capped attributes which vary from metatype to metatype). Similarly Essence calculations apply AFTER BPs have been spent on buying one of the Magical Qualities and after raising the Magic Attribute. To reiterate: Essence Loss is subtracted from the Magic rating you actually possess (there is no "Virtual" Magic Rating) reducing both your current Magic and your Magic cap. This means it is done AFTER everything else has been sorted out (after raising the Magic Attribute and buying Essence-sucking ware during Resource allocation).
> Now I know in all past editions of SR the mage takes a hit on Magic
> due to essence at CharGen. He states the rules do not state this
> during Character Generation only. This is a new edition and Mages
> should not be penalized this way if it does not state so. I cannot
> find an official wording in the Core Book, Street Magic or Runners
> Companion.
You can inform the player that under SR4, a Magician always takes a direct hit to his (now variable) Magic Rating when implanting 'ware whether it's implanted at character generation or in play. This is integral to the game.
> Can you help me please. I do understand you are both very busy with
> GenCon and understand if you cannot get back to me soon, but I really
> do need an answer to this.
Hope that helps.
Peter Taylor
Shadowrun Line Developer for Catalyst Game Labs
I'm more than willing to go with buy magic points then lose them, but I'm sure there are lots of people out there that this has never occurred to. There is much vagueness in the rules. It would be nice of some of this were addressed.
But nobody's addressed the second part of my question. If I want to get my magic up to 6, before it's knocked back down to a 4, do I have to spend 65 build points on the attribute, or only 50? Do I spend all build points at once? Or do I spend all BPs on each attribute at once? Or neither. I mean, who's to say I didn't take my magic up to 5, then buy some 'ware, then raise my magic again?
That having been said, I'm going to go with the magic you've bought is reduced by the essence you've lost. I think this only makes sense because it encourages mages to by 'ware at chargen, and then raise their magic in gameplay. I'm leaning towards not charging for the max attribute point, because 15 extra BPs for an attribute you don't have seems excessive.
EDIT: Magus's post wasn't up when I wrote this. Thanks Magus! Now can that be added to the errata, or made an official publication somewhere? And that makes it sound more likely that you spend the full BPs to max out the attribute before reducing it through essence loss. Can someone convince me why, from a balance standpoint?
But nobody's addressed the second part of my question. If I want to get my magic up to 6, before it's knocked back down to a 4, do I have to spend 65 build points on the attribute, or only 50? Do I spend all build points at once? Or do I spend all BPs on each attribute at once? Or neither. I mean, who's to say I didn't take my magic up to 5, then buy some 'ware, then raise my magic again?
That having been said, I'm going to go with the magic you've bought is reduced by the essence you've lost. I think this only makes sense because it encourages mages to by 'ware at chargen, and then raise their magic in gameplay. I'm leaning towards not charging for the max attribute point, because 15 extra BPs for an attribute you don't have seems excessive.
EDIT: Magus's post wasn't up when I wrote this. Thanks Magus! Now can that be added to the errata, or made an official publication somewhere? And that makes it sound more likely that you spend the full BPs to max out the attribute before reducing it through essence loss. Can someone convince me why, from a balance standpoint?
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Dec 23 2008, 01:39 AM)
Glyph, Muspellsheimr, the two quotes that you refer to also don't say anything about the reduction applying at character gen. What I think Fortune is asking is for clarification from Synner or another CGL employee to come out and say: "Yes you have to buy Magic up and THEN reduce it by the appropriate amount due to 'Ware."
Okay, let me try this again, for the fucking last time. I am getting tired of this shit.
QUOTE (Shadowrun 4 - Chapter 5 (Creating a Shadowrunner))
QUOTE (Creating a Shadowrunner - Page 84 (Assigning Resources)
QUOTE (Assigning Resources - Paragraph 8-14 (Cyberware and Bioware))
In addition to the nuyen cost, each item of cyberware or bioware
also has a secondary cost in Essence. Th is Essence Cost is the
amount by which the character’s Essence is reduced when the cyberware
or bioware is installed. Starting characters cannot have an
Essence of 0, but any fraction above zero is fi ne. Some cyberware
can be “packaged” with other cyberware for lower cost, or may allow
a certain number of Essence-free attachments (cybereyes, for
example). See individual cyberware descriptions in Street Gear,
beginning on p. 330.
Essence losses from cyberware and bioware are tracked
separately. Only the higher of the two totals deducts from
Essence in full, with the other deducting at half. For example,
if a character has an Essence loss of 1.5 from cyberware and
2.5 from bioware, then the character’s Essence is 6 – 2.5 (full
bioware) – 0.75 (half cyberware), or 2.75. Players should keep
track of both, as it’s possible one can outpace the other as the
character implants more cyber or bio into his body.
Players should consider the grade of cyberware or bioware
when choosing it. Two grades are available to starting characters:
Basic and Alpha.
Basic cyberware is cheap, but not very Essence-friendly.
Most people don’t care what brand of cyberware they get, as long
as it works—datajacks, cybereyes and other common mods are
low enough in cost and Essence loss that neither matters to the
general public.
Alpha cyberware appeals more to the guys and gals who
count on cyberware to survive. Alphaware costs more, but is easier
on the body (and Essence). If you purchase alpha grade cyberware,
multiply the listed nuyen cost of the item in question by 2. Th e
Essence Cost of alphaware equals the original Essence Cost x 0.8.
See Cyber- and Bioware Grades, p. 303.
Note that any attribute boosts gained from implants do not
aff ect other aspects of character creation—a boost to Logic, for example,
does not increase the Knowledge skills you start with.
Any reductions to a character’s Essence will also aff ect his
Magic or Resonance (see p. 62).
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Dec 23 2008, 10:38 AM)
Okay, let me try this again, for the fucking last time. I am getting tired of this shit.
1. The quote you provided does not answer the question.
2. The quote on the page number you highlighted, combined with that section, only partially answers the question and does not say anything about whether or not someone can buy cyber, then the magical quality, and then raise magic.
In short, you're not answering the fucking question.
Magus, however, did answer it.
Yes, it does answer the damn question. It clearly says that you loose Magic due to implantation during character generation, as normal. It does not matter what order they do the character generation - they loose the Magic/Resonance. The book clearly states you can perform character generation in whatever order you like. It does not say this allows you to bypass the effects of Essence on Magic.
I think what Morrigana is saying is that while it says that your Magic is affected, it doesn't say how. Everyone agreed that your maximum is reduced. Not every one agreed that the score you bought is reduced. In other words, how is it affected? However, I think the intention is clear, even if the words don't explicitly say so.
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Dec 23 2008, 10:50 AM)
Yes, it does answer the damn question. It clearly says that you loose Magic due to implantation during character generation, as normal. It does not matter what order they do the character generation - they loose the Magic/Resonance. The book clearly states you can perform character generation in whatever order you like. It does not say this allows you to bypass the effects of Essence on Magic.
I believe my reply is best handled with quotes.
QUOTE (wind_in_the_stone)
Page 62 says that for each point of essence below 6, you lose a point of magic. Does this apply at chargen? Or can I buy my cyberware, and then buy magic up to the new maximum?
QUOTE (BBB page 62)
Characters with Magic or Resonance attributes are subject to penalties if they have an Essence lower than 6. For each point or partial point of Essence below 6, the character loses 1 full point from her Magic or Resonance and the maximum for that attribute is reduced by 1. Th e maximum rating for Magic is 6 + initiation grade (see Initiation, p. 189); for Resonance the maximum rating is 6 + submersion grade (see Submersion, p. 238).
QUOTE (KCKitsune)
Glyph, Muspellsheimr, the two quotes that you refer to also don't say anything about the reduction applying at character gen. What I think Fortune is asking is for clarification from Synner or another CGL employee to come out and say: "Yes you have to buy Magic up and THEN reduce it by the appropriate amount due to 'Ware."
QUOTE (The Jake)
While the rules are clear on Magic Loss, they are NOT clear on the process at character creation the order of precidence in which purchasing magic and cyberware should be applied (which would clarify this question).
QUOTE (The Jake)
My understanding here is that no-one is disputing the lost Magic point or the reduced maximum for that attribute.
What we're discussing is the order of precidence in which you need to invest points into the Magic attribute during character creation.
Everyone is well aware of the consequences of cyberware implantation on a magician once the game has begun.
What we're discussing is the order of precidence in which you need to invest points into the Magic attribute during character creation.
Everyone is well aware of the consequences of cyberware implantation on a magician once the game has begun.
Now, where does anything in the sections of the BBB you quoted repeatedly answer the actual question? The answer is: It doesn't. You've been repeatedly posting quotes that are only barely related to the question at hand. Magus actually managed to take the question and answer it.
QUOTE (wind_in_the_stones @ Dec 23 2008, 11:00 AM)
I think what Morrigana is saying is that while it says that your Magic is affected, it doesn't say how. Everyone agreed that your maximum is reduced. Not every one agreed that the score you bought is reduced. In other words, how is it affected? However, I think the intention is clear, even if the words don't explicitly say so.
No, what I'm saying is that Muspellsheimr is getting huffy over the fact that he doesn't even seem to understand the question at hand and has decided to get combative about it. I'm just smacking him upside the head until he realizes his error.
The point they're making (now moot thanks to the post by Magus) is that if you do the steps out of order, i.e., buy up your ware and essence, *then* buy the magician quality and spend bps on Magic, then in theory you won't reduce your magic at all because your magic was at 0 during the reduction phase. Peter's response to Magus however pretty clearly defines the intent that ware purchases should always come after magic purchases, and thus they'll affect it. So really, this argument is now completely moot.
No, I understand exactly what the question was, & I provided rules quotes that answer it. Provide a quote that says the order you create your character has impact on your final abilities - then we can talk about that. There is none - it does not matter if you decide to purchase your 'ware first, or Magic first; during character generation, it clearly states that your Magic is reduced from augmentation. Again, it does not matter if you "had" the Magic attribute when you purchased starting equipment.
The only basis for argument against this is from the Latent Awakening quality - which is rather specific on how it works, because it does not follow the normal rules.
The only basis for argument against this is from the Latent Awakening quality - which is rather specific on how it works, because it does not follow the normal rules.
Nothing within the rules you posted addressed whether or not the Magic rating would have to be bought up to a pre-ware level and then reduced or automatically assumed reduced and then bought up to a post-ware level. What they did talk about was reducing a magic or resonance rating you already have. Which, considering the question brought up the possibility of adding the magic rating to someone after the ware is bought and there is already rules in place for dealing with that possibility post-chargen, the question became whether or not that changeup in order and the resulting changes in BP spent also could apply to chargen.
Nothing you posted addressed that. Nothing in the entire rulebook addresses that. It took Magus having to outright ask the devs themselves to get an answer to that.
Nothing you posted addressed that. Nothing in the entire rulebook addresses that. It took Magus having to outright ask the devs themselves to get an answer to that.
Show me where I quoted it saying "reduces Magic you already purchased". No, it says quite clearly "reduces Magic". Once again, by the rules as written (that I have quoted), Magic purchased during character generation is reduced by Essence loss; at no point does it say the order you obtain these make a difference.
Here's where:
Okay, cool... now, let's say they don't have any magic at the time I'm reducing Essense. Since they don't have any, how can they lose a full point of their magic rating? They get the maximum reduced, but that only applies after I go ahead and add on magic later on.
QUOTE
For each point or partial point of Essence below 6, the character loses 1 full point from her Magic or Resonance and the maximum for that attribute is reduced by 1.
Okay, cool... now, let's say they don't have any magic at the time I'm reducing Essense. Since they don't have any, how can they lose a full point of their magic rating? They get the maximum reduced, but that only applies after I go ahead and add on magic later on.
And as soon as you get your Magic rating, it is reduced - as written. Enough of this shit - I have clearly outlined how it is written, & how it works. You want to argue; go ahead. I don't give a shit.
While I agree with the point he was trying to make, I was amused that Synner got the rules wrong nevertheless:
Anyone other than me catch this? I.e., trolls and dwarves don't pay for adaptation costs at chargen?
QUOTE
Your player is correct that there is no defined sequence to the different options in Character Generation. However, there are aspects of character creation which need to be sequential. For instance the metatype (or race/metavariant/etc) ALWAYS needs to be chosen before gear because it impacts the cost of gear (ie. because of adaptation for trolls and dwarves),
Anyone other than me catch this? I.e., trolls and dwarves don't pay for adaptation costs at chargen?
Actually, by Rules as Written, they do - kind of. It is suggested that the cost increase is waived at character generation, but not an "actual" rule.
and yes, I did notice that by the way.
and yes, I did notice that by the way.
QUOTE
And as soon as you get your Magic rating, it is reduced - as written. Enough of this shit - I have clearly outlined how it is written, & how it works. You want to argue; go ahead. I don't give a shit.
Except, the rules don't actually state that, Muspellsheimr. None of the quotes you have posted back up your claim that they do.
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Dec 24 2008, 07:24 AM)
And as soon as you get your Magic rating, it is reduced.
It is? So a person with Latent Awakening and an Essence of 2.0 has to pay for all four of those lost Magic Points as soon as he awakens then? I don't see rules for that in the books.
QUOTE (Morrigana @ Dec 24 2008, 07:39 AM)
None of the quotes you have posted back up your claim that they do.
That was my problem last time this came up. Nowhere that I can find doess it actually state that a character must pay BP for 'lost' Magic Points. Merely that his Magic is reduced.
maybe it's one of those german books fuck-ups again . .
It seemed clear to me, but since it wasn't clear to everyone, I am glad one of the developers clarified the intent of the rules. Word from one of the line developers should be considered official, always when they agree with me.
This is one of the main reasons that I endorse a fixed order of stages in character creation. The only complication is with the magician qualities, which, is easy enough to resolve if you simply set those few aside as the first or second stage, resulting in a character creation process like this:
1. Metatype? (or Werethinger, Flying Monkey, Man-Bear-Pig, etc.)
2. Magician/Technomancer? If a magician, what kind?
3. Attributes (Including Edge and Magic/Resonance)
4. Skills
5. Qualities
6. Cash-Money/Gear/Lifestyles/Spells/Adept Powers/Complex Forms/Sweet Karate Moves
7. Contacts
Of course, 1 and 2 don't really matter too much for order, nor do 6 and 7, but enforcing this order on the process in general, and 3-5 in particular, resolves pretty much every issue I have with character creation.
1. Metatype? (or Werethinger, Flying Monkey, Man-Bear-Pig, etc.)
2. Magician/Technomancer? If a magician, what kind?
3. Attributes (Including Edge and Magic/Resonance)
4. Skills
5. Qualities
6. Cash-Money/Gear/Lifestyles/Spells/Adept Powers/Complex Forms/Sweet Karate Moves
7. Contacts
Of course, 1 and 2 don't really matter too much for order, nor do 6 and 7, but enforcing this order on the process in general, and 3-5 in particular, resolves pretty much every issue I have with character creation.
QUOTE (Fortune @ Dec 24 2008, 06:05 AM)
It is? So a person with Latent Awakening and an Essence of 2.0 has to pay for all four of those lost Magic Points as soon as he awakens then? I don't see rules for that in the books.
A person who Awakens with an Essense of less than 6 will lose Magic or Resonance per SR4 p62. The reason why someone with Latent Awakening doesn't is simple - the wording of Latent Awakening protects him from the loss.
QUOTE (toturi @ Dec 23 2008, 06:35 PM)
A person who Awakens with an Essense of less than 6 will lose Magic or Resonance per SR4 p62. The reason why someone with Latent Awakening doesn't is simple - the wording of Latent Awakening protects him from the loss.
That's not necessarily being argued. In fact, it was clarified in Magus's post. What is being argued with is someone's attitude over the whole affair, specifically how they kept touting a wording that is a bit murky as though it should shed a supernova's worth of light upon the subject.
Edit: A bit of clarification.
The magic loss itself was never in question. What was in question is if someone would have to pay BPs for the points they would have lost, or if they don't, at chargen if they add the cyber first. That question is not answered on page 62 or anywhere else in the book.
QUOTE (Morrigana @ Dec 24 2008, 08:51 AM)
That's not necessarily being argued. In fact, it was clarified in Magus's post. What is being argued with is someone's attitude over the whole affair, specifically how they kept touting a wording that is a bit murky as though it should shed a supernova's worth of light upon the subject.
The passage that was quoted seems quite clear to me. Magus' post only serves as clarification as to the writers' intent of it. For myself, in a literal RAW interpretation of the passage, it is clear to me that Magic is always reduced, whether you choose to buy it before or after you implant during chargen. That question is very clearly (to me, by RAW at least) answered on page 62.
The problem is, in a literal RAW interpretation of the passage, a person only loses magic points they have as they lose cyber. Thus, they can come back after they've already lost the magic, pay to get magic, and not have to subtract any points. Of course, their new magic rating is still limited by their lowered maximum magic rating.
I'll also wait for you to read the edit and tell me your response to it as well. That's where the confusion came in, since it involves things being taken a bit out of order and possible unintended consequences of that.
I'll also wait for you to read the edit and tell me your response to it as well. That's where the confusion came in, since it involves things being taken a bit out of order and possible unintended consequences of that.
A literal RAW interpretation? Oh boy, I really think you're not trolling, but seriously believe the crap you're spouting. Or at least you make a damn fine effort to believe it. 
Go show where it says "when you loose Essence, you loose Magic". At no location in the book does it say that. It clearly specifies that if your Essence is below 6, you suffer Magic loss - it does not matter when you loose Essence or gain a Magic rating - during or after character generation. Latent Awakening is an exception to this, because it says it is an exception.
QUOTE (Morrigana @ Dec 24 2008, 09:08 AM)
The problem is, in a literal RAW interpretation of the passage, a person only loses magic points they have as they lose cyber. Thus, they can come back after they've already lost the magic, pay to get magic, and not have to subtract any points. Of course, their new magic rating is still limited by their lowered maximum magic rating.
I'll also wait for you to read the edit and tell me your response to it as well. That's where the confusion came in, since it involves things being taken a bit out of order and possible unintended consequences of that.
I'll also wait for you to read the edit and tell me your response to it as well. That's where the confusion came in, since it involves things being taken a bit out of order and possible unintended consequences of that.
QUOTE
Characters with Magic or Resonance attributes are subject to penalties if they have an Essense lower than 6. For each point or partial point of Essense below 6, the character loses 1 full point from her Magic or Resonance and the maximum for that attribute is reduced by 1. The maximum rating for Magic is 6 + initiation grade (see Initiation, p. 189); for Resonance the maximum rating is 6 + submersion grade (see Submersion, p.238).
No, in the RAW literal interpretation of the passage, the person loses magic (it does not matter if they have the Magic then or later) if they have Essense lower than 6. My post was already in response to your edit. There should be no confusion as to this point per SR4 p62.As Muspellsheimr stated, Latent Awakening is an exception due to its text. But considering the roulette that Latent Awakening is, I suppose that there should be some incentive to take the Positive Quality.
QUOTE (Malicant @ Dec 23 2008, 07:31 PM)
A literal RAW interpretation? Oh boy, I really think you're not trolling, but seriously believe the crap you're spouting. Or at least you make a damn fine effort to believe it.
Let's look at the logic of it:
You go ahead and add cyber to the character, with full intents of going ahead and adding in a bit of magic later on. Then you reference the rule in question. What does it say? That as you reduce essense, you also lose points of magic. You, at current, have no points of magic to lose; you can't subtract from something that doesn't exist. Now, what it doesn't state (read it over if you don't believe me) is whether or not this loss applies to any gaining of magic once you've already lost essense. Nor does it state whether or not you'd have to pay for the points you would have lost. The only similar rule for judging by happens to be Latent Awakening, which also happens to be a special case.
Now, there's two logic paths to follow: The correct one, where you assume the loss of magic points applies to magic since you should have honestly added to that state first, and the incorrect one, where you take it to mean that it applies to time of application instead of having application to future gains of magical ability. Searching through the rules, there really is no clarification as to which two of those is correct, to the point that Magus had to actually ask one of the developers about it.
So, tell me, based entirely on the wording and using only the wording from the book, which one can you provide clear evidence to support? The best you can provide is circumstantial evidence, relating primarily to the order of setting stats within the chapter devoted to character generation. But you cannot say, for sure and based upon the wording entirely, that one path or the other is correct.
The problem is that they made the wording too simplified. This is one of those cases where something that is incorrect or absurd can be argued to be legally allowed due to the wording. If you want another example, do a search for Deus and RFID tags.
QUOTE (torturi)
No, in the RAW literal interpretation of the passage, the person loses magic (it does not matter if they have the Magic then or later) if they have Essense lower than 6. My post was already in response to your edit. There should be no confusion as to this point per SR4 p62.
As Muspellsheimr stated, Latent Awakening is an exception due to its text. But considering the roulette that Latent Awakening is, I suppose that there should be some incentive to take the Positive Quality.
As Muspellsheimr stated, Latent Awakening is an exception due to its text. But considering the roulette that Latent Awakening is, I suppose that there should be some incentive to take the Positive Quality.
Provide text evidence from the book itself to support the bolded part, and which supports it clearly and without leaving room for reasonable interpretation.
QUOTE (Jackstand @ Dec 23 2008, 04:29 PM)
1. Metatype? (or Werethinger, Flying Monkey, Man-Bear-Pig, etc.)
2. Magician/Technomancer? If a magician, what kind?
3. Attributes (Including Edge and Magic/Resonance)
4. Skills
5. Qualities
6. Cash-Money/Gear/Lifestyles/Spells/Adept Powers/Complex Forms/Sweet Karate Moves
7. Contacts
Of course, 1 and 2 don't really matter too much for order, nor do 6 and 7, but enforcing this order on the process in general, and 3-5 in particular, resolves pretty much every issue I have with character creation.
2. Magician/Technomancer? If a magician, what kind?
3. Attributes (Including Edge and Magic/Resonance)
4. Skills
5. Qualities
6. Cash-Money/Gear/Lifestyles/Spells/Adept Powers/Complex Forms/Sweet Karate Moves
7. Contacts
Of course, 1 and 2 don't really matter too much for order, nor do 6 and 7, but enforcing this order on the process in general, and 3-5 in particular, resolves pretty much every issue I have with character creation.
Problem is, you can't actually build a magician that way. Magician et al are Qualities, so they have to be taken before attributes and special attributes are, as well as skills. You're also blocking out any Qualities that affect skill/attribute costs, such as Exceptional Attribute and Aptitude.
QUOTE (Morrigana @ Dec 24 2008, 02:49 AM)
Let's look at the logic of it:[snip]
No matter how good your arguments, when you try to justify a loophole, you failed even before you started. But this does not prevent you from being incredibly entertaining, of course. Just stop before you get really annoying, will you? I'd say you can go at least two more pages before that point is reached. Or maybe you already passed it at full speed? Who can tell...
QUOTE (Malicant @ Dec 23 2008, 07:56 PM)
No matter how good your arguments, when you try to justify a loophole, you failed even before you started. But this does not prevent you from being incredibly entertaining, of course. Just stop before you get really annoying, will you? I'd say you can go at least two more pages before that point is reached. Or maybe you already passed it at full speed? Who can tell...
The thing is, this discussion was already over when torturi and, later, yourself joined in; what I was mainly doing was explaining the discussion and point of contention. The primary argument over the loophole was settled when Magus posted and everyone involved already acknowledged that. Pretty much, no one's actually arguing in favor of the loophole right now; what's going on is someone got a bit miffed over the fact the wording that spawned the confusion to begin with did not automatically clear it up when they reposted it, eventually getting a foul attitude. From that point on, the discussion was primarily to point out to them that it was the wording itself which spawned the problem through a lack of clarity, with them eventually deciding they were frustrated enough that people automatically didn't get the same understanding they did and then leaving the thread. The conversation pretty much wrapped up at that point and then we get it continued by both you and torturi, with him continuing it mainly when I tried to explain to him the context of the argument he was responding to.
Thus, we're not arguing about whether or not the loophole is legal; we're arguing about the logic used to explain the logic behind a challenge to someone who got angry and a bit foul mouthed after the discussion was already settled when the very item they were using to clarify the original point of discussion is what caused the original point of discussion to begin with.
In short, I'm not the one continuing it. I'm just sitting back amused that you and torturi haven't realized you're the ones who are keeping going what should have died several posts ago, and which wouldn't have even existed if it wasn't for a post on page 1. Realistically, the original point of discussion was ended when Magus posted that reply from Peter.
QUOTE (Morrigana @ Dec 24 2008, 09:49 AM)
Provide text evidence from the book itself to support the bolded part, and which supports it clearly and without leaving room for reasonable interpretation.
There is no need to. This is the RAW literal interpretation of the text, not the reasonable interpretation of such. RAW need not necessarily reasonable but the literal wording of the rule is clear enough in this case that there is no ambigiuity.
The text clearly states that if your Essense is below 6, you lose Magic. Note that there is no timing to this rule. Therefore it is on all the time, whether now or otherwise.
I am not even arguing about any logic used to explain any point in this discussion. I am simply pointing out something very clear and literal. In short I am not the one continuing it. I am sitting back amused that you haven't realised that you are the one who is keeping going what should have died at post 6.
QUOTE (Morrigana @ Dec 24 2008, 03:06 AM)
blah blah blah
By now you should have realised what exactly it is I am doing and also that I am not afraid to continue. Well, if i wasn't bored and tired, so, you go on, so I can have a good laugh next time I check this forums, will ya?
You guys are arguing about an argument about a moot point?
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