What do you think the game effect would be of dropping the Ork BP cost to 10, possibly dropping Body from +3 to +2 to compensate?

Now, I like Orks, a lot. You can probably tell that from my icon. Orks are where it's at, as far as I'm concerned. But even with this change, Orks would still be - by far - the best deal of any metatype. I don't really think reducing their body changes that much.

Purely in terms of bang for your buck, going for Ork is the best 20BP you will ever spend. There's absolutely no need to make them any cheaper when they're already the most BP efficient metatype in the game.

If people aren't playing Orks enough in your games, they just haven't been shown the artwork for Gary Kline and the Gunslinger Adept yet.

Fact: Shadowrun Orks look awesome.

Orks are great as they are, and really shouldn't need any help to become more popular. If the players in your group don't like to play them, they're missing out.

Orks effectively get +5 to their stats, and they're very good stats to get bumped up (3 bod, 2 str) which would require 50 BP to get up as a human, for only the 20BP cost for the metarace. They can then spend the full 200 BP from creation on stats. The downside? Lower maximums in cha and log, which many character types don't need, and won't miss. Low light vision is icing on the cake. I agree completely with Adarael, Orks rock.

I actually used to play in a game where costs for orks and ork metavariants where lowered by 10BP (it was supposed to be a thematic campaign in the Seattle Ork Underground).
Without lowering the bonus to BOD.

I was a bit surprised that 2 out of 6 players actually decided not to play orks.
They're already extremely cost-effective, as has been pointed out.



And Edge.
But that's a drawback of all metahumans.

As others have said, orks are already by far the best buy in the game. Decreasing their cost only adds to this imbalance. If you want to make a race cheaper, statistically it should be the elves, who are overcosted by at least 10 (if not 20) BP.

But don't do that because elves suck.

We all know how you feel about Elves, Max.

RE the main topic, remember that Strength is by far the least useful stat, even if you use the Arsenal strength-based recoil compensation.

Some points bear repeating.

Elves are the devil, They want to steal our freedoms and replace them with candy corn. Candy corn shaped like STALIN.

I don't want to derail the topic, but... why do elves suck?

Oh...

Well alright then.

I agree, but a Strength of 3 is really the sweet spot (trolls, not so much - Strength of 5 is a bit much if you are not a combat-oriented character).

As far as elves, they come out 10 BP behind humans, but the stats they get bonuses to are very valuable ones - you either start out with an extra dice for your combat skills, or two extra dice for a face. It's like paying for Aptitude or an Exceptional Attribute - you're paying for the ability to boost certain stats. If you don't do either, then you are basically paying 10 points for "style".

If you just want style, play an elf poser and get 5 Build Points.

Actually, Elves are 5 BP overpriced, not 10 or more.

10 - Agility
10 - Charisma
10 - Charisma
5 - Low-Light Vision
[Total: 35]

vs.

10 - Edge
[Total: 10]

Difference: 25 BP

I'm going solely by Attributes. If you start factoring in things like low-light vision, lower running speed, exceptional vs. limited Attributes, and everything else, then you'll get bogged down in a big mess. Plus, you have to factor in the "package deal" factor of something you want vs. something you don't find useful, but it's part of the metatype. Natural low-light vision, for example, is pretty useless for the sammie who's going to get cybereyes with the works anyways.

I mean, if you want to get technical, you could say that the lower Edge cap and the higher Agility cap cancel each other out, and elves should get Exceptional Attribute X 2 for their Charisma, making them 35 points underpriced.

Overall, I think the races are relatively balanced vs. each other, with each having things they are better at, but none of them being so dominant that everyone picks that race.


btw, addressing HentaiZonga's original question, he wasn't actually making orks cheaper, since he was dropping a bonus Strength point as well as the price, for the same net gain, point-wise. The advantage being that you can start out as an ork with a Body of 3, and the disadvantage being that you only have a maximum of 8(12) instead of 9(13). Not a house rule I would be likely to use, but not one that has any real game balance problems, either.

Anyone who has crunched the numbers know that elves are the only metatype that doesn't give you a good mathematical return on your BP spent(see post above about being 5 bp overpriced), though they do get a bonus to two very powerful attributes that no one else has a bonus to(and that others have a smaller max to).

Is it odd that about the only Ingentis characters I play are non-combatants?

p.s. (insert whatever geek code translates as "Orks rock!" here)

Maybe, just maybe, players not playing orcs has to do with them wanting to play something else? No, that's entirely too far fetched, it must be in the numbers somewhere ...

Blasphemy!!!

You forgot an additional point modifier for elves:
-5pts gay as the day is long.

As for Orcs, only 1 of my players will play them... too many have been corrupted by the evil that has become D&D, and see orks as brainless savages.

They want to play augmented ghouls, because the numbers are even better?

Slurs on sexual orientation have no place here. I request an apology.

Lighten up, man. Everyone jokes about Elves being gay, even me -- and I'm one of the most hardcore pro-Elf people you'll find in any (read: every) game that has 'em.

It's not the Elf slur that bothers me, it's the slur on homosexuality. Whether or not you meant it with malice - and I will admit it appears you did not - I do not believe that sort of thing has any place in a civilized forum. It may seem harmless, but equating "gay" with "lame" or some other negative makes it seem all right to think of actual gay people that way.

Sorry, I guess I just don't see some things as worth getting all angry over.

You have the right to stating your opinion, and I to stating mine. The quote in question refers to censorship; I am not trying to have your comment removed, merely bringing to your attention that it offends me and is potentially emotionally harmful to some people.

I know, I know. Hence the smiley making light of the quote, it was a joke.

Anyways -- have a good one. I can understand your irritation, but I think there are some insults that can be let slide in the heat of the moment and in the spirit of the jest. I'm certainly not going to tell you you're not allowed to be offended, I just think it's a little misplaced and might be an unnecessary buzzkill, in this case, that maybe could've been handled a little better via PM or something. Have a safe and Happy New Years, and I'll just shush and let people get back to number-crunching Orky awesomeness.

I read it as the originator saying that they were joyful people. I believe it's actually some old quote from literature.

Nah, not really. Being able to hit 4-6 body 3-5 strength while barely denting the 200 bp chargen attribute cap is a beautiful thing and it easily allows you to grab 4 logic/charisma/whatever while still being above average in virtually all areas. Bottom line is, any build benefits from hitting certain bare minimum physical dicepools, because frankly, shit happens in shadowrun. Your teammates and contacts can do a lot of tough tasks for you in shadowrun, be it repair tests, data searches or tracking down that hot piece of merchandise for you. But if a ganger shoots you with his Predator, it really doesn't matter how much body armor the troll sammy manages to strap on every morning; you're still just wearing a leather jacket. Likewise, if you're running on foot from a pack of ghouls, suddenly your 2 strength doesn't look so hot anymore. And Dunkelzahn help you if it turns out your scrawny ass needs to quickly climb a chain fence to get away.

I see your point; I didn't really think of handling it by PM. It's something of a pet issue for me, and I try to raise awareness when I can. I'm sorry I took your criticism of my quote so seriously; I have Asperger's Syndrome, a disorder similar to high-functioning autism, which makes it difficult for me to notice subtlety at times.

The quote is from a biography about Voltaire if it helps. He never actually said it but it was supposed to sum up his whole view on peoples right to state their opinions.

*cough* ork ork ork ork ork! *cough*

It is in the numbers. Just perhaps most people are ignoring them to see what they want to see.

No, man, it's cool. I think we need to embrace "gay" as "effeminete, weird, and inappropriate" - but in exchange, we need to start using "hetero" as a slang term to mean "boring, predictable, and typical in a frustrating way". So we can start saying things like "man, waiting in line at the DMV was so fucking hetero". Or "man, that was such a hetero cop that pulled us over."

Spread the word.

No. Troll(Formorian) Drake Formoriags with the human looking edge.


Yeah, the numbers never lie ... ... as do dice.

I think some people just dont want to be "ugly". i mean even though i think SR orcs look really cool and not ugly at all, you still get that "eewww" factor. I mean just look at a cancer causing game like World of Warcraft. I would say 75 percent of people go play Alliance because they have cute gnomes and humans and elves. But the people who seem more fun and interesting (my view) play the horde. I mean they had to put pretty elves on the horde side just so they can even out the teams. Good grief. I never understood playing something you are (human) or playing something because its cute (and guys do that too, even though they wont admit it).

Some people may just be interested in other races because those offer interesting character hooks orcs don't. Or no. That'd be heresy ...


That's a game where the avatar's look is everything and social interaction between characters often makes 4chan look civilised. In SR, every race has it's appeal, and usually each races has something in which they are better than others (except for trolls, which have been upgraded more and more throughout the editions).

It's nice to see I'm not the only person who knows that quote isn't directly Voltaire's. As you said, it's from Friends of Voltaire, his official biography, and summarizes his beliefs on the matter based on letters and such he wrote.

I don't like trolls because of their Agility hit. Trolls are made for combat, and every type of combat build needs agility.

Not odd at all. 95% of my Ingentis/Robustus characters are, indeed, more non-combat oriented. I mean, the stats are all there, indeed.

But yeah, the Troll hit to agility. I mean, if you want to REALLY crunch it down, a troll sam can have a 5(7) strength and be just dandy, and you could afford to take +1 Agility boosting bio-treatments for 45k/9 BP, and boost Agility up and get rid of that pesky drawback, while still having enough Strength to get your +1 recoil and do decent melee damage, as well as getting mad body. But oh yeah, it's more difficult than for an ork, who can get a 5(7) strength for 20 BP, and not need Agility-boosting ware to get the high Agility. They lose 1 reach, but so what. Yeah, I mean, with all the talk of trolls being overpowered, my money's on the ork.

As for orks being ugly...well, Minor Biosculpting and Human Looking will turn your ork into Mr. Chippendale. With better stats.

I still think Dwarves also come out pretty sweet in their BP to good-stuff ratio. Lower Reaction, yah, but it's a rather small price to pay, and they can still dodge perfectly well with a 4(something), since, in my experience, it's rare that I see even a human or ork combative character with higher than a 4(something) reaction.

Orks, yeah, manage to come out on top.

I am new to the game, and mostly being my groups GM, BUT not really thinking of the numbers, I like the "new" idea of an ork, and I would really like playing an ork char:)