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BlackSmith
QUOTE
p. 73 Mnemonic Enhancer [4]
Under Game Effects, change the third paragraph to read:

    Because memory retention is key to learning, the Karma cost for learning or improving skills and specializations is reduced by 1 (to a minimum of 1) for any character with a mnemonic enhancer.
does this mean that if character has got 3 lvls of Mnemonic Enhancer he gets only one reduced from karma cost instead of the boo kentry that you get reduction to the karma cost equal to Mnemonic Enhancers lvl?
Sphynx
That's exactly what it means. Lvl 3 is still only 1 karma redux.

Sphynx
WhiteRabbit
Yup.
Diesel
The shift key is your friend.
BlackSmith
awwwn.
well you cant get all...
mfb
the shift key is the devil.
BlackSmith
actually the shift key is just a shift key.
you ppl should consult doctor before eating those pills...
Kagetenshi
The CAPSLOCK key is the devil. Shift is your friend. Option talks to me at nights, and alt touched me in bad places when I was young.

~J
Fortune
So you're saying it had alterior motives? biggrin.gif
Kagetenshi
Yes indeed, but all that stopped after I took Control.

~J
BlackSmith
you realy should try group fun with Control Alt and Delete
:grin:
Fortune
What if you're turned off by that kind of orgy?
toturi
QUOTE (BlackSmith)
you realy should try group fun with Control Alt and Delete
:grin:

Ahhh, Delete is soooo delectable!
Joker9125
you people need help.
Tanka
QUOTE (Joker9125)
you people need help.

Your point?
BlackSmith
he's got none. he has not lost his Window of his Escape.
6thDragon
14 posts completely off the topic. That's gotta be close to a record. As much as everyone complained about the Mnemonic Enhancer being broken, the errata is a step in the right direction...but hasn't totally fixed the problem. Now all the versions reduce the karma cost for improving skills by one. Now the level one version will be standard issue for every character out there. I don't think the decreased karma cost should come into play until at least level two if not level three. Just my 0.2 nuyen.gif
BlackSmith
14 posts completely off the topic.?
rrright.

the second post answered my Q. thanks for Sphynx.

all the extra is nice paska jauhantaa (bullshit talking, translation suffers)
Snake Oil
It would have made a lot more sense for the Mnemonic Enhancer to simply count as bonus successes for purposes of determining how long it takes to learn or improve a skill and to lower the target number for the learning test. For instance, improving an Active Skill from 5 to 6 (assuming a linked Attribute of 6) normally takes 63 days and a Skill Test (12), with each success dividing that base time. With a Mnemonic Enhancer 3, it would be a Skill Test (9) and three automatic successes as long as he gains at least one on his own. He still has to pay the same amount of Karma (9 points), but his chances of success are higher and it will take him a max of 16 days to do it.

That in and of itself is a pretty good reason to take the implant. It's assuming GMs use and inforce the said rules, of course, which few seem to do. But at least it makes a lot more sense for it to increase the success and speed up learning time than Karma reduction does.

Besides, the coolest thing about Mnemonic Enhancers are the Language and Knowledge Skill bonuses.
Prototype
Coolest thing is the karma reduction.

I've changed it so that a Level 3 Enhancer gives you -1 Karma, wasn't going to change it as it felt I was screwing my players a bit... but then I looked at one of their character sheets and realised that a 200 karma PC had saved in excess of 120 karma points by using a Mnemonic Enhancer 3... makes him greater than 50% more effective in skills terms than he should be. Ridiculous!
toturi
Not ridiculous. Smart.

Look at the geniuses around you. They can pick things up more easily than more stupid people(like me). Better memory allows people to do better, so what's the grip? Or are you just complaining about that ever elusive Game Balance?

If you are worried about game balance, I think you might just be doing something wrong in your games. RPGs are supposed to be cooperative.
Omega Skip
I never felt the enhancer was broken - I mean, it wasn't like it was somehow magically unavailable to anyone. My rule of thumb's always been, if the PCs can (theoretically) do it, and the NPCs can (theoretically) do it as well, then there's no real reason why it should be fixed.
QUOTE

How can that punk have 6 more successes than me? HOW can that PUNK - oh wait a minute, that wasn't just pool dice, right?


Also, Backspace is telling me to kill, which is weird - normally, I receive my orders from Tab. Must be the new Logitech keyboard...
LoseAsDirected
Sounds like we need to Insert you into a crazy Home, so they can End your suffering.
Bölverk
QUOTE (Snake Oil)
For instance, improving an Active Skill from 5 to 6 (assuming a linked Attribute of 6) normally takes 63 days and a Skill Test (12), with each success dividing that base time.

TN for improving a skill is (new level +2) - where do you get 12 from?
danbot37
All these bad jokes make me want to ctrl-r Home... or at least alt-f4 my brain to such poor puns. It mind feels num-locked!
Luke Hardison
QUOTE (Bölverk)
QUOTE (Snake Oil)
For instance, improving an Active Skill from 5 to 6 (assuming a linked Attribute of 6) normally takes 63 days and a Skill Test (12), with each success dividing that base time.

TN for improving a skill is (new level +2) - where do you get 12 from?

Don't know what you mean, Bolverk.

QUOTE
Such training can be made into a short and simple mechanic, such as requiring a Skill Test using the skill to see if it can be learned or improved.  The target number for such a test would be twice the Skill Rating sought.

SR3, p. 245-246, emphasis added

So raising from a 5 to a 6 would definately be a TN of 12.
Artemis
Truly agreed. Using a Mneumonic Enhancer would be a lot closer to its purpose if it reduced difficulty TN of learning improved skills and reducing the time to do so than how much effort is spent on the learning.

Granted, it's currently one of the favorite ways of munchkining a character's power to be greater than ever, but this other suggestion makes a good deal of sense.
Kagetenshi
On a side note, a munchkin-in-training in the game my girlfriend is running (*waves at the Hobbit, if he's reading this*) pointed out that according to the BBB, it never actually states that you have to incrementally improve skills, just that you have to pay an amount based on the desired new skill level. Anyone got any text stating that you can't improve a skill from 1 to 6 for a cost of 9 karma, or is this just something GMs everywhere will have to suppress on their own authority?

~J
darloth
I have had people argue this point, but A) i squashed it flat, and B) i think there is somewhere some obscure, single line which implies extremely strongly that you're supposed to do it one point at a time.

It might even say so definately.

Its definately in the BBB, but i don't know where...
Siege
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
On a side note, a munchkin-in-training in the game my girlfriend is running (*waves at the Hobbit, if he's reading this*) pointed out that according to the BBB, it never actually states that you have to incrementally improve skills, just that you have to pay an amount based on the desired new skill level. Anyone got any text stating that you can't improve a skill from 1 to 6 for a cost of 9 karma, or is this just something GMs everywhere will have to suppress on their own authority?

~J

Um...hit him with a book for the rest of us, k?

A large book, for preference.

-Siege
Nath
I think the BBB states something around the line of "the cost of increasing a skill by one point is given by the table..." (don't have the book in front of me, but I've already saw the issue) implying the cost for increasing a skill by more than one point is nowhere given.
BlackSmith
also if you could rise skill to more than one point per time, how long would it then take?
because it takes quite much time to get only that ONE point thus geting some skill to X raiting should be calculated by advance of each skill raiting increase.
Bölverk
QUOTE (Luke Hardison)
QUOTE
Such training can be made into a short and simple mechanic, such as requiring a Skill Test using the skill to see if it can be learned or improved.  The target number for such a test would be twice the Skill Rating sought.

SR3, p. 245-246, emphasis added

So raising from a 5 to a 6 would definately be a TN of 12.

Hm, I've never noticed that line before.

I was going by p.48 of the Companion, which gives the (new skill +2) TN, but on closer reading, that apparently applies specifically to reducing training time...? This seems odd to me, as I can't recall any other game situation that requires you to roll once to see whether you're successful at something, then roll again to see how long it takes. Am I reading something wrong?

In addition, the Companion rule gives rules for a failure (no successes = 1.5x base time), but I don't see any in the SR3 rule. If I'm rolling against TN 10 to raise a skill from 4 to 5, and I fail, does that mean I can never improve that skill again? If not, how long would I have to wait before I could re-roll it?
Prototype
Toturi, I don't need to look far for that sort of thing... I just look at the people around me and see how much slower they are to pick things up.

However, I have no problem with the mnemonic enhancer speeding learning times up (in fact I still have it reduce karma cost for the purpose of calculating training times at its level) but when it starts to skyrocket some characters ahead of others it really needs looked at.
BlackSmith
we.. i would brefer the second choice.

why does not the others get it too?
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