Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: A Shotgun For Your Amusement
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Pages: 1, 2
Big Crow
A character in my group demanded an Ithaca Roadblocker for his character, and having the time, I obliged. I just thought I'd share it for anyone who was interested.

Ares ASG-3 “Roadblocker”
This is the most powerful commercially produced semiautomatic shotgun available today. The Roadblocker is a very large and heavy weapon, intended for use at roadblocks where it would not, presumably, be carried for extended periods. The Roadblocker uses custom anti-vehicular ammunition, and is used primarily to disable fleeing vehicles. It is available only to certified law enforcement and military organizations.
The gas system is located at the front of the magazine tube, limiting the Roadblocker’s ammunition capacity to two rounds, and one in the firing chamber. Another aspect of the gas system is its counter-recoil design called “countercoil” by the manufacture.
The Roadblocker is available only to certified law enforcement and military purchasers.

Ares ASG-3
CODE

Conceal Ammo Mode Damage Weight Availability  Cost   Street Index Legal RC
   3    2(m)  SA    8D     8     14/12 Days  1,925¥        3      2-PF  2


The Roadblocker is a large caliber weapon, and as such, incurs a +2 recoil penalty. The heavy barrel and innovative gas system of the Roadblocker effectively negate the +2 recoil penalty afforded by its heavy caliber. The custom ammunition for the Roadblocker costs 600¥ per box of 10 with a Street Index and Availability of 14/12 Days and 2 respectively. Treat the custom ammunition for this weapon as AV rounds, as per the rules on pg. 36 of the Cannon Companion.

<<<Developer’s Notes
This weapon is obviously based on the real life Ithaca MAG-10 “Roadblocker”. For purposes of game play for Shadowrun, I have modified the basic design I created from the Cannon Companion by borrowing from the Barret Model 121 sniper rifle. My guiding principals were; the weapon must be capable of *possibly* taking out a car in one solid shot, it must compete with Shadowrun shotguns with higher Power levels that also offer Burst Fire, it must be expensive and difficult to obtain, and it must be balanced.

As such:
  • Low ammo capacity helps to balance this weapon.
  • Although not all groups worry about weight, this weapon weighs approximately 17lbs unloaded.
  • It is considered a military grade weapon.
  • It is difficult to obtain, and is expensive.

In addition, with clues gained in an arcane process, I decided that for roughly the equivalent of two levels of Increased Power, you could exchange the +2 Power level for and increased Damage Level. However, doing so requires the weapon uses custom ammunition, and suffer +2 for recoil. I used the rules for custom ammunition as presented for the Barret Model 121, with the following results: Whereas the Barret’s ammunition is based on standard APDS, it’s cost is roughly 2.8 times the cost for APDS. Hence, the Roadblockers ammunition is based on standard AV ammunition, so by the same logic the Roadblocker’s custom ammunition is 571.43¥, which rounded for game’s sake I decided should be 600¥. The Street index and Availability was taken as is, but reflects the fact that regardless of the particular model the weapon uses the same ammunition.>>>

An Alternate Version Designed Strictly From CC

Ares ASG-3 “Roadblocker”
One of the most powerful commercially produced semiautomatic shotgun available today. The Roadblocker is a very large and heavy weapon, intended for use at roadblocks where it would not, presumably, be carried for extended periods. The Roadblocker uses typically uses anti-vehicular ammo, and its primary role is to quickly disable fleeing vehicles.
The gas system is located at the front of the magazine tube, limiting the Roadblocker’s ammo capacity to five rounds, and one in the firing chamber. Another aspect of the gas system is its counter-recoil design called “countercoil” by the manufacture.
The Roadblocker is available only to certified law enforcement and military purchasers.

Ares ASG-3
CODE

Conceal Ammo Mode Damage Weight Availability  Cost   Street Index Legal RC
   3    5(m)  SA    10S   5.5     8/8 Days   1,800¥        1       4-PF 1


Having presented this with a light heart, is there anyone who would like to offer any constructive criticisms?
kevyn668
Yep, make yourself a Troll mage and saw the stock off your custom model. Then it "sounds like rock and/or roll"!!
Big Crow
QUOTE (kevyn668)
Yep, make yourself a Troll mage and saw the stock off your custom model. Then it "sounds like rock and/or roll"!!

biggrin.gif Sawing through an intregal gas-recoil system can cause "reliability issues". biggrin.gif
Fortune
QUOTE (Big Crow)
Sawing through an intregal gas-recoil system can cause "reliability issues".

That'd be true if the Gas Venting was in the stock, and not the barrel. biggrin.gif
Big Crow
QUOTE (Fortune)
QUOTE (Big Crow @ Jan 6 2004, 04:31 PM)
Sawing through an intregal gas-recoil system can cause "reliability issues".

That'd be true if the Gas Venting was in the stock, and not the barrel. biggrin.gif

Ummmm. I'm not sure I follow you. Barrel shortening is common in sawed shotguns, and many shotguns do have gas-recoil systems right below their barrels, making shortening them a bad idea. Besides, barrel shortening of this weapon would ruin it because it is not intended to fire "shot" rounds.
The amount of concealabilty increase for shortening a MAG-10's stock would be maybe -1, but it would be very unwieldy and dangerous, although a troll could pull it off.
Fortune
That's all fine and dandy, but the stock of a rifle or shotgun is the wooden (or plastic) part that fits against your shoulder. It has nothing to do with the barrel, which is at the other end of the weapon. smile.gif
3Threes
read carefully and you will see he (kevyn668) said to saw off the stock - not the barrel
toturi
Doesn't the stock provide RC?
Fortune
Not by way of Gas Venting!
Arethusa
No. Welcome to the wonderful world of Wacky Ass Shadowrun Rules.

Folding stocks provide RC. Normal stocks don't. Like I said, Wacky Ass.
Fortune
QUOTE (Arethusa)
Normal stocks don't.

Unless you fit it with a Shock Pad. smile.gif
Arethusa
Which is wacky ass!
BumsofTacoma
I give my players RC if the gun has a stock and they use it right.

SHock pad BAH! I need no stinkin shock pad, unless its on my hands!!!
mwahahahaha (zzzzzzap) OWWWW.

Note to self, take shock pads off when scratching @$$ and other unmentionables.
eek.gif
kevyn668
yep, I said "stock".

I figured, hey you're a Troll. You got the strength to soak that RC!

Or is it body? Or was the body from Fields of Fire and strength is from the CC...? **shakes head**

What was that about wacky ass rules?? biggrin.gif

I always ruled it that if you had a stock on a weapon, you got the RC. Other wise, all my chars that ever carried a weapon w/ stock would saw those babies right off!!

QUOTE
Note to self, take shock pads off when scratching @$$ and other unmentionables.


rotfl.gif
Big Crow
QUOTE (kevyn668)
yep, I said "stock".

rotfl.gif

You certainly did. And I have learned a lesson about reading and playing Madden at the same time. Sorry Kev.

Rigid stocks, according to page 83 of CC, grant the 1 point recoil reduction same as a folding stock, however rifles and shotguns are specifically exempted.
Does anyone know any canon rules for the effect of shortening the stock if an off-the-shelf rifle or shotgun? I'm digging through SSC and Fields of Fire, but not finding anything yet.
Kagetenshi
Not canon, but I would personally just reverse the rules for adding the stock. +1 recoil, -whatever concealability.
As for the "folding stocks give RC while fixed don't". I just assume any weapon that has a stock and doesn't get RC from it to have it already factored in, hence my suggested ruling above. Some oddities like the SPAS-22 are left, but in general it's a very workable system. If the exceptions bother you so much, apply aforementioned penalty when stock isn't deployed rather than giving a bonus when it is.

~J
StealthBanana
It's a shotgun... designed to take out cars? Of the moving variety? Here is the opinion of one who does not know much about guns:

A shotgun is a short range gun, ya? Cars move very fast. I guess it could be used to disable immobile vehicles... but this weapon isn't used to try and stop moving vehicles, is it?

I dunno, it just seems kind of silly to me. With all the military restrictions on the gun, why not use a grenade? Or a rocket launcher, which is just as restricted and easier to fire. I think. I suspect. I actually have no idea, having never fired a rocket launcher.

If I'm completely wrong, just ignore this post and move on grinbig.gif
fourstring_samurai
don't forget that SR shotguns use slug rounds, not shot. so hitting a moving vehicle shouldn't be any more difficult than when using other slug throwers.

kevyn668
QUOTE
Big Crow Posted on Jan 6 2004, 04:50 PM
  You certainly did. And I have learned a lesson about reading and playing Madden at the same time. Sorry Kev.


S'cool, omae. The only way to get better at multi-tasking is to practice. smile.gif

QUOTE
StealthBanana Posted on Jan 6 2004, 05:46 PM
  It's a shotgun... designed to take out cars? Of the moving variety? Here is the opinion of one who does not know much about guns:

A shotgun is a short range gun, ya? Cars move very fast. I guess it could be used to disable immobile vehicles... but this weapon isn't used to try and stop moving vehicles, is it?


If the car was moving toward you, like if you were at a road block, the relative speed wouldn't matter that much.

I don't know the rate of fall for shot but 12 gauge slugs drop an inch for every ten feet, I believe, and I think they travel at like 200 feet per second. That should do it, IMO. Can someone back me or correct me?





Austere Emancipator
StealthBanana: It is based on an actual, RL weapon that police use to stop cars in road blocks. The principle is certainly sound.
Tanka
QUOTE (kevyn668)
<snip>I figured, hey you're a Troll. You got the strength to soak that RC!

Or is it body? Or was the body from Fields of Fire and strength is from the CC...? **shakes head**</snip>

As a long-time SR2 player, in both FoF and CC, it's Strength, not Body.
kevyn668
@ tanka:

sorry. :sheepishgrin: its been a while. smile.gif
Tanka
QUOTE (kevyn668)
@ tanka:

sorry. :sheepishgrin: its been a while. smile.gif

S'OK, it happens. I sometimes forget and have to re-read the section when I play one version for a bit too much time.
Foreigner
kevyn668:

The muzzle velocity of a 12-gauge slug is between 1500 and 1800 feet per second (FPS), depending upon such things as the weight of the slug (generally around 1 oz. (437.5 grains/28.35 grams), although some are as heavy as 600 grains (1.37 oz./39 grams)) and powder charge.

Also-- and no disrespect is intended here -- the Ithaca MAG-10 "Roadblocker" is chambered for the 10-gauge, 3.5" Magnum shell.

Ten-gauge slugs are slightly heavier, weighing 766 grains (1.75 oz./49.6 grams).


(The information comes from CARTRIDGES OF THE WORLD, 7th Edition , written by Fred C. Barnes and edited by Mike Bussard (1985 by DBI Books, Inc.).)

Just thought you might be interested. smile.gif

--Foreigner
Raygun
Let me first apologize for my criticism here. I fear that it probably isn't as constructive as you would like it to be, in the sense that it furthers the development of the gun. Perhaps it will give you ideas on how to address the situation that the weapon was designed for.

Considering the rules of the game, I don't see much reason why anyone would buy a weapon like this when they can just buy an Enfield AS7, load it with AV ammo and burst fire at whatever they need to. It would have three bursts at 11D each, plus an extra round. The AS7 costs almost half what the ASG-3 does, it's half the weight at the same conceal rating, and it's apparently much easier to find. If the ASG-3 is supposed to be a military/law enforcement only weapon, it should probably have a legality rating of 2-K, or at least 2-F, without the possibility of acquiring a permit.

The downside to the AS7 is that you do have to deal with a +3 recoil modifier per burst. Not really a big deal, IMO.

As for this recoil-absorbing gas system that reduces ammunition capacity, it really wouldn't have to, as long as you made it feed from a box magazine rather than a tubular magazine. (That goes against the whole Ithaca MAG-10 thing, but...) It could work a lot like the AK107/108 in that case.

Overall, I think the alternate version is better.

As for disabling vehicles at roadblocks, you'd probably have better luck with a spike strip (controlled deflation device) or a system that, when run over, contacts the bottom of the vehicle and sends a massive jolt of electricity into it, shorting out the vehicle's electronics (Read: fuel injection. These things exist in reality, though they aren't very common). You could probably get both of those things for less than the cost of this shotgun.
Kagetenshi
Zapper strips, R3. Not very expensive, IIRC, and does lots of horrible nasty vehicle damage (SomethingD, I believe).

~J
Fresno Bob
On a shotgun, uncompensated recoil is doubled, so the AS7 could potentially be at +6 per burst. You can't put gas vents on shotguns, can you?
Kagetenshi
I believe you can; it just prevents the use of shot rounds. That's from memory, though, so it's unreliable.

~J
Raygun
QUOTE (Voorhees)
On a shotgun, uncompensated recoil is doubled, so the AS7 could potentially be at +6 per burst. You can't put gas vents on shotguns, can you?

You're right. I forgot about that. In that case, it makes a bit more sense to be able to lay down the smack with one round rather than three.

I don't see anything that says that you can't use gas vents on shotguns, but I don't have CC. You certainly can do it in reality, even when you are using shot.
Fortune
QUOTE (Raygun @ Jan 7 2004, 12:22 PM)
I don't see anything that says that you can't use gas vents on shotguns, but I don't have CC.

It strikes me as kinda funny that 'The Gun Dude™' doesn't actually have 'The Gun Book'. biggrin.gif
Raygun
I kind of wrote my own. smile.gif

IMO, CC took guns in more of a comic-booky direction than I wanted my games to go. I didn't really want to support that kind of thing, so I never bought the book. That comes at the expense of not having acess to the latest and greatest canon rules for firearms, which really doesn't bother me. It only becomes an issue when I post here, and even then only rarely.
kevyn668
@ Foreigner:

Cool, thanks...I really need that :sheepishgrin: smiley.

My "statistics" came from a drunken conversation w/ a hunter friend of mine. I think he thought it was odd when I went from "Did you see her!?" to "So, whats the effective range of a shotgun firing double ought buck?" He said that he likes use slugs....
Foreigner
kevyn668:

No problem. smile.gif

(Or, if you prefer, "Null sheen, Chummer." wink.gif )

--Foreigner
kevyn668
[ValleyGirlVoice]"Meh, thats sooo 2053... "[/ValleyGirlVoice]
biggrin.gif

I actually always liked "Null persp, chummer" (or omae). But it was always so hard to work into my everyday language smile.gif
Foreigner
Big Crow:

I have a suggestion.

If all your player wants to do is throw LOTS of lead or steel pellets in one direction at will, why not develop a SHADOWRUN counterpart to the 40-millimeter Buckshot rounds that our military already uses in their M-79 and M-203 (the underbarrel grenade launcher that attaches to the M-16A2 and subsequent members of that family)? (Assuming that such rounds don't already exist in SR, that is. I'm afraid that I don't have my copy of CANNON COMPANION handy at the moment.)

Talk about the Mother of All Shotguns.... smile.gif

I once read that a 40-millimeter M-79 Buckshot round contains somewhere between TWO and THREE HUNDRED "00" (.33-caliber) pellets.

Supposedly, our military liked to use them in Vietnam against massed attacks in close cover, such as heavy brush. Loaded like that, an M-79 was essentially a shoulder-fired Claymore mine (or "M-18A1 Antipersonnel Mine", if you prefer military jargon).

Hope this helps. smile.gif

--Foreigner
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE
Supposedly, our military liked to use them in Vietnam against massed attacks in close cover, such as heavy brush. Loaded like that, an M-79 was essentially a shoulder-fired Claymore mine (or "M-18A1 Antipersonnel Mine", if you prefer military jargon).

Well, uhm, not quite. After all, the Claymore launches the 700 steel pellets with 1.5lb or C4. The 40mm shot round may get to, I dunno, 1/100th of that power. It seems my Google-Fu has gotten weaker of late, I couldn't find the weight of 40mm grenade propelling charges. In any case, a 40mm HV shot round (or actually, if the purpose is to stop a car, a solid slug or saboted 40mm HV) might work rather well for this use, but the recoil might be, err, rather bad.

[Edit]I found this though. Ouch... That must be expensive fun, at ~$30+ per round and a rather decent cyclic RoF.[/Edit]

[Edit #2]I couldn't even find the projectile weights of M406 LVHE and M384 HVHE grenades. I think the grenades are about the same weight, so the 75m/s (246fps) vs 240m/s (787fps) velocity difference probably translates to about 10 times the energy. Would this be endurable for a troll from a ~10-15kg weapon with good muzzle brake, buffers, etc?[/Edit #2]
Foreigner
Austere Emancipator:

I admit that I was a little off on the details.

Unfortunately, the only piece of information that I have which mentions the specifications of a Claymore mine is my copy of Stephen Hunter's TIME TO HUNT, which is a work of fiction.

Like most of his stuff, it is QUITE well-researched, but I wasn't certain if he had all of the information that he published regarding the specifications of the M-18A1 Antipersonnel Mine and the M-57 Hand Firing Device exactly right.

I'm not all that familiar with Vietnam-era weapons, as I was only a child at the time.

--Foreigner
Austere Emancipator
I wasn't even born when Vietnam was going on. Not for, what, 7 years after it was over.

And I'm not saying a 40mm shot round isn't effective. I'm sure it has quite a bit of "stopping power". It's just that a Claymore (and other similar "cone"-mines) have insane amounts of the same. They can level whole squads men at 50+ meters. At under 10 meters, they tear people apart. A shoulder-fired weapon just can't handle that kind of power.

And it was an interesting idea with the 40mm shot round. I hadn't heard of that before. I'm really looking forward to hearing from someone the weights (and thus energies) involved in firing a 40mm HV round, because a 40mm HV shotgun ought to be a great Troll weapon if there ever was one.
Raygun
QUOTE (Foreigner @ Jan 7 2004, 02:34 PM)
I once read that a 40-millimeter M-79 Buckshot round contains somewhere between TWO and THREE HUNDRED "00" (.33-caliber) pellets.

The M576 40mm Buckshot round held twenty-seven 00 buckshot pellets. Here.
Austere Emancipator
Raygun, do you know how much the projectile in any of the standard 40mm HV rounds (M383/M384/M430) weigh? They're probably pretty close to the LV variants, so the weights of M433 or M406 projectiles would be useful too.
Foreigner
Raygun:

I stand (okay, SIT smile.gif ) corrected.

I should've known that the source I remembered (1998's CAIN, by James Byron Huggins) was wrong.

Among several weapons-related errors made by the author were the following:

(1) His claim that the .45 ACP variant of the Federal Hydra-Shok round fired the same 158-grain inverted hollowbase Wadcutter projectile as the .38 Special version;

(2) That .300 Winchester Magnum sniper rifles had an accurate/effective range of over two thousand meters; and

(3) He also couldn't seem to tell the difference between a Franchi SPAS-12 and the South African-made Striker-12. He referred to the SPAS-12 repeatedly in print, but went on to say that the weapon fed from a revolving drum (which the Striker 12 has), rather than a tubular magazine (which the SPAS-12 has).

A good book otherwise, but the guy should have really checked out his facts before submitting the manuscript to the publisher.

And *I* should have known better than to use information I remembered from reading it as a basis for my argument... spin.gif

--Foreigner
Req
QUOTE (Foreigner)
(3) He also couldn't seem to tell the difference between a Franch SPAS-12 and a the South African-made Striker-12. He referred to the SPAS-12 repeatedly in print, but went on to say that the weapon fed from a revolving drum (which the Striker 12 has), rather than a tubular magazine (which the SPAS-12 has).

Franchi SPAS-12, innit?
Kagetenshi
It is indeed.

~J
Foreigner
Whoops!

Sorry, my bad! Guess I submitted the post too quickly...

--Foreigner
Austere Emancipator
Someone really ought to teach people to use Google. Google is your friend. When you're not sure about something, Google it. If you are sure about something, Google it just for the principle. If in doubt, Google. With something as brilliant around as Google, I just can't understand how mistakes as silly as that (Franchi SPAS-12 feeding from a revolving drum or .300WinMags having accurate ranges beyond 2km) can find their way into novels people are supposed to pay money for.

Just watched Blade II. Had a slight laughing fit at the point where Whistler gives a vampire the pump-action shotgun with the silver spikes glued on and says something about it being a hypervelocity stake gun, "it fires silver stakes at 6,000 fps". Muzzle energy around 335kJ/250k ft-lbs assuming 100g/.22lbs per stake -- a nice weapon for busting tanks with. nyahnyah.gif
Req
Yeah, well, the biologist in me positively cringed at most of Blade and Blade II. Hmm, the vampires are all Wu Tang-Shaolin ninja hard because they've got binucleated red blood cells? Last time I checked there was a reason that our RBCs don't have any nuclei at all - more room for hemoglobin, which is after all the whole point of RBCs. So since the vampires are unable to deliver oxygen to their body effectively, they kick ass? Yeah. Righty-o.

Oh, oh, and EDTA makes them explode. Great. We use it for cell culture all the time; I've got tens of liters in my lab storeroom. If the vampires ever invade, my lab will own them, no questions asked.
Austere Emancipator
Since the whole movie is about vampires and vampires are always silly, it doesn't surprise me that the vampires are silly in that movie too. However, just because the world has silly vampires in it doesn't mean it has to have silly guns too. Although, using only Hollywood movies as the test group, it would seem that the injection of vampires into any world automatically makes that world's firearms become whacky.

It's also pretty odd that vampires are supposed to be bad-ass when the slightest wounds caused by silver are so lethal to them -- far more lethal than ordinary bullet wounds are to humans. Considering how extremely easy it is for anyone to manufacture large amounts of silver bullets cheap, vampires would be in serious trouble in the modern world.
Kagetenshi
Well, they do have to identify the need for the bullets before they make them, but otherwise yeah.

~J
Austere Emancipator
How hard could that possibly be, with hundreds of thousands of vampires running rampant on the streets, feeding on any bugger who doesn't have the wits to stay out of the gothic-looking areas of the city at night?

Extra points for the people in charge of the Vampire Nation security, however, for getting all their men HK G36Ks and FN P90s. I wonder how long it takes before FN F-2000s start popping up in Hollywood movies, and then how long before OICWs...
Siege
Feh.

Blade was good, Blade 2 just started bad and went to worse. Although I gotta admit, the mouth-splitting vampire was pretty slick.

-Siege
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012