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masterofm
I was just thinking that mages no matter how much they are a screw up, or are not extremely bad ass at what they do will pretty much always have a job. You might have to learn a spell, or have the people use your watcher spirits, or your bound spirits are doing some kind of task, but lets face it mages are too valuable of a resource to not be working for a company. Mages can be blacklisted from working, but one would think that a high force mage (magic 4+) that is not working for a corporation would set off the shadowrunner warning bells.

In the end I was thinking that it would strike me that mages would actually get hassled more then any other type of runner if they didn't have a SIN, because in the end even a magic 1 mage is useful.
Hagga
Is there a chart running around for magicians in terms of sheer power? OFficial or otherwise? You know, "1: Desirability, low. Do not attempt to forcibly obtain." Etc.
Cadmus
Well normal 3 is considered normal for people that do what ever they do for a living, figure maybe a lot of lvl 1 and 2 mages/adepts in the world, a bit less at 3 and 4, with 5 or 6 being rare for mages maybe more commen for adepts,

masterofm
And having a high powered mage without a SIN and a job I think would make anyone wonder if they are not working what are they doing? The most common answer is probably running in the shadows.... if not something much much worse.
Sir_Psycho
QUOTE (masterofm @ Jan 28 2009, 05:51 PM) *
I was just thinking that mages no matter how much they are a screw up, or are not extremely bad ass at what they do will pretty much always have a job. You might have to learn a spell, or have the people use your watcher spirits, or your bound spirits are doing some kind of task, but lets face it mages are too valuable of a resource to not be working for a company. Mages can be blacklisted from working, but one would think that a high force mage (magic 4+) that is not working for a corporation would set off the shadowrunner warning bells.

In the end I was thinking that it would strike me that mages would actually get hassled more then any other type of runner if they didn't have a SIN, because in the end even a magic 1 mage is useful.

That does sound amusing. "Those corporate recruitment fraggers keep trying to steal our mage every time we go out for a beer!"

Something to remember is that there are academic magicians, so your fake SIN could list you as a lecturer at a university or smaller community college or something. A student is also a good cover.

Also to consider, many mages would find corporate control of their abilities stifling, and while being awakened does get your foot in the door at a corp, it also gives you the opportunity to have freedom not necessarily afforded to the average mundane. You can make some good money by being a talismonger/enchanter. A private investigator is also a independent profession where magic is a big edge. There's also a market for magicians in the entertainment industry, whether you're doing special effects for a corp sponsored theatre show, Karl the Kombatmage, Neal The Ork Barbarian, or you could freelance, using your talents to entertain at parties and clubs. Sure, the biggest agents are corpers, but you're trading your freedom for a salary. Then there's medicinal and therepeutic professions. You could be a magical masseuse if you want.

I've said this before, but I reckon most magical security guards are the douchebag fratboys who got into university on magical scholarships, spent their time drinking from kegs and banging sorority girls, and then went into magical security when they didn't get the grades to go into the higher paying R&D divisions.
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Jan 28 2009, 10:04 PM) *
I've said this before, but I reckon most magical security guards are the douchebag fratboys who got into university on magical scholarships, spent their time drinking from kegs and banging sorority girls, and then went into magical security when they didn't get the grades to go into the higher paying R&D divisions.


Or they're the type that likes danger... wobble.gif I know that might sound stupid, but there are all kinds in a SR world.
Browncoatone
Most of my mages over the years were moonlighters. Maybe they were a licensed practitioner that ran a small magic boutique, a Rent-A-Pentacle (sorta like a modern day rent a dark-room for photographers) or perhaps a banishing service (for those pesky paranormal problems) by day but occasionally walked the darkside for extra cash/karma.

The whole idea that some ork with the gift is hanging around some street gang because he just can't get work cuz the Elf is keep'n him down never sat well with me. Even minor magic is too useful and rare to be sitting on the bench and who wants a out-of-work mage thinking about how to apply his art to pay the bills? Nobody- especially the powers that be, thus any magic user should be able to get a SIN easy. If a mage doesn't have a job, it's not because he doesn't have the opportunity.
The Jake
I remember reading that magicians are supposed to have permits and licenses and the like... but I can't recall if this is covered in the BBB. I thought they just applied to arms and equipment.

Can anyone confirm/deny that?

- J.
Sir_Psycho
I wouldn't know where to find a page reference for this, but with that in mind, I'm pretty sure to be a "legal" mage you need a license for every spell you know.
TheOOB
Awakened characters have to have their talent registered on their SIN(though many manage to conceal it for years, esp with masking). UCAS law is horribly dysfunctional when it comes to magic. Forumlas for combat spells, mental manipulations, and other spells are restricted at best sometimes forbidden, but there is no way to really regulate them and no way to conclusively prove someone knows an illegal spell(beyond witness testimony). About the only solid law that exists is that any crime committed with the aid of magic is considered pre-meditated, and evidence gained through mental manipulation is not admissible in court.

There are licenses for magic use (combat spells in particular), but it's hard to say exactally what they mean. UCAS law is a mess concerning magic, and way behind the curve, which means that the opinions of the arresting officer, judge, and jury in a court case are all very strong factors in magical cases, congress just isn't able to make good laws governing something they cant understand.
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Jan 29 2009, 01:40 AM) *
I wouldn't know where to find a page reference for this, but with that in mind, I'm pretty sure to be a "legal" mage you need a license for every spell you know.


wobble.gif That's crazy! I know that to be legal you have to be registered, but to have EVERY spell licensed as well... I don't know how they would go about doing that.
TheOOB
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Jan 29 2009, 02:03 AM) *
wobble.gif That's crazy! I know that to be legal you have to be registered, but to have EVERY spell licensed as well... I don't know how they would go about doing that.


They can't, and that's the point.
masterofm
You can, but you have to be part of the system. There are also reasons why people do personal extractions. Mages are valuable assets and getting them away from their enslaved system and into yours is always a good idea. I would think that capturing a street mage and doing the same thing would probably be pretty common especially at high force. The problem with running under the radar and being a mage is that everyone knows it. Setting up a stall and being a mage even if you have a fake SIN will probably still present a danger in a world where magic is still highly prized. Not being part of the system is a problem and even being part of the system does not mean you are safe. Flashing a fake SIN saying you work for Ares might only get you so far if you are magic 6 + mage and they know it. Eventually a fake SIN can fall through if someone decides to tail you to find out that is not your real story (and I think following a mage of that level is always a good idea.)
Sir_Psycho
If some guy gets fried with a powerbolt over a parking dispute, and the forensic magician records the aura and spell when he assenses the crime scene, he could. If the dead guy is holding a shotgun, the mage might plead self defense, but if that mage doesn't have a license for the powerbolt spell, he's in a whole different world of trouble.
Dakka Dakka
Which Aura can he assense? The victim is dead so he has no aura and the mage who did it is not present. Even if he were, it would not help the investigator. He could find out that he is a magician with a magic attribute of X. But that is it.
The Investigator could also assense the signature of the spell on the victim, but even with 5+ successes he could not say who did it. Only if he assensed a spell he knew to be cast by a certain mage could he verify if those two were cast by the same person. Signatures work like fingerprints, with the exception, that the 5th Amendment probably forbids to force a mage to cast a spell so that his signature can be verified.
Browncoatone
QUOTE
Signatures work like fingerprints, with the exception, that the 5th Amendment probably forbids to force a mage to cast a spell so that his signature can be verified.


Maybe, maybe not. I would think that spell signatures would be not unlike DNA samples, where a court order could be obtained to force the issue.

Also keep in mind if you're asked to comply voluntarily for a means of identification and you decline you just made yourself suspect number one.
Hagga
QUOTE (The Jake @ Jan 29 2009, 07:33 AM) *
I remember reading that magicians are supposed to have permits and licenses and the like... but I can't recall if this is covered in the BBB. I thought they just applied to arms and equipment.

Can anyone confirm/deny that?

- J.

Someone posted this a while back:
http://evenmere.org/~bts/SR/sr3permits.html
And in the BBB, all spells bar combat spells are listed restricted, combat being forbidden. That means licenses.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (Browncoatone @ Jan 29 2009, 12:12 PM) *
Maybe, maybe not. I would think that spell signatures would be not unlike DNA samples, where a court order could be obtained to force the issue.
But the difference between the two is that obtaining a DNA Sample can be done without the cooperation of the accused. To verify a signature the accused has to cast a spell himself.

QUOTE
Also keep in mind if you're asked to comply voluntarily for a means of identification and you decline you just made yourself suspect number one.
True, but suspicion does not mean proven guilt.

As for the licenses, the BBB does not say if one license for being a magician is enough or if you have to have a license for each spell. The same goes for firearms.
Cadmus
ah but what about spirits? Why no officer I didn't cast a spell, He had a shot gun and this large rock sat on him.

Dakka Dakka
Yup, you don't even have to erase the signatures of your spirits. They are not traceable to you.
Browncoatone
QUOTE
To verify a signature the accused has to cast a spell himself.

Incorrect:
QUOTE
Foci and other magical items (like magical lodges) always contain the astral signature of their owner (or owners).SR4 pg#182

Provided your magician never casts another spell and doesn't have any magical equipment you might be able to avoid getting identified.
QUOTE
Yup, you don't even have to erase the signatures of your spirits. They are not traceable to you.

Also incorrect:
QUOTE
spirits are linked to their masters...Awakened entities who are aware of these links can follow them
and track them through the astral plane back to their sources. SR4 pg#185

Basically anything you do magically is traceable by the awakened. You can mask your signature, even change your signature, but you still leave a signature.

darthmord
Unless you do a magical wipedown after the doing the deed.
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Sir_Psycho @ Jan 29 2009, 04:21 AM) *
If some guy gets fried with a powerbolt over a parking dispute, and the forensic magician records the aura and spell when he assenses the crime scene, he could. If the dead guy is holding a shotgun, the mage might plead self defense, but if that mage doesn't have a license for the powerbolt spell, he's in a whole different world of trouble.


How does the forensic magician do this "records the aura" exactly?

I can understand that if that specific forensic magician personally encounters that same aura and does a successful Memory Test that they might be able to make that match, but otherwise, how does it happen? I can think of a few things to help, but there isn't a magical equivalent of the Lone Star Top Ten most wanted poster to pass around.
Dakka Dakka
You are correct about about foci and lodges, i forgot about them, but the link between summoner and spirit exists only as long as the spirit is in the service of the magician. And the spirit only leaves its own signature, not that of the magician. An occult investigator could of course try to track down a spirit on it's metaplane and ask it but that would probably be like searching for a needle in a haystack. Moreover not all courts allow testimonies of non-metahuman entities.

@DireRadiant: there is an Aura Camera in the Arsenal.
DireRadiant
QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Jan 29 2009, 12:32 PM) *
@DireRadiant: there is an Aura Camera in the Arsenal.


Awesome, thanks! Quicksilver Mana Sensitive Film Camera! P. 67. Nice.

But still not very easy and takes a lot of effort. Base +2 threshold to Assensing tests to begin with for matches.
masterofm
5th amendment? Wait... wha? When did citizens have rights in shadowrun? The US does not exist anymore so there is no 5th amendment, there is no constitution, or miranda rights (at least in what was formerly the US.) If they want you to cast a spell you cast a spell, in the end all they have to do is wipe your sig and deny that it ever happened. Kind of like a cop shooting someone and then later planting an unlicensed gun on them and some crack except there really is no court of law in Shadowrun and citizens don't really have the right to say that LS can't search their car. Being suspect no. 1 in Shadowrun means the law (and by law I mean privately contracted security forces) will just walk all over you.

Spirits have your aura, when they cast they also leave a signature. If you summon a spirit and attack a mage with it, when the mage assenses the spirit he will see your aura so I don't see how the mage couldn't recognize yours. It also means that when the spirit leaves a fingerprint by casting a spell since it has your aura it leaves your aura behind. Flexible signature is quite a nice spell, because when you or your spirits drop a spell it makes it harder to identify. However the important factor that some people forget to separate is that critter powers do not drop a signature. Spells do, critter powers do not.

That being said astral cameras takes a long amount of set up time before they can actually take a picture, which is to say that if someone drops a low force spell you might not have enough time to set up your shot. Overcasting, and unable to wipe sig is generally going to come back in bite you in the ass, because any mage that wants to pass by the scene of the crime will be able to now have your signature as the spell lasts for the level of force in hours (and astral speed is very very speedy.) A low force spell other mages might not have enough time to check out the spell, but a high force is nasty business.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (masterofm @ Jan 29 2009, 06:14 PM) *
5th amendment? Wait... wha? When did citizens have rights in shadowrun? The US does not exist anymore so there is no 5th amendment, there is no constitution, or miranda rights (at least in what was formerly the US.)
Where did you get that?
QUOTE (Street Magic p. 14)
Because the UCAS and the CAS still retain major bits of the former US Bill of Rights in their legal codes, methods like mental probes and aura reading can’t be used to gather evidence, since both violate Fifth Amendment prohibitions against self-incrimination.


QUOTE
Spirits have your aura, when they cast they also leave a signature.
No, a spirit's aura can't be that of the summoner, otherwise they would look just as the magician on the astral plane.
QUOTE
That signature also happens to have your aura.
Not true. Only a spell or a critter power has an aura and that only as long as it is active. Which is for most damaging spells only one complex action. After that they only leave a signature on the spell's targe(s). More over the sigature corresponds to the spirit that cast the spell or used the power, not the summoner.
QUOTE
However the important factor that some people forget to separate is that critter powers do not drop a signature. Spells do, critter powers do not.
Wrong again. The bbb makes no distinction between the type of magical power or skill that is used.

QUOTE
That being said astral cameras takes a long amount of set up time before they can actually take a picture, which is to say that if someone drops a low force spell you might not have enough time to set up your shot. Overcasting, and unable to wipe sig is generally going to come back in bite you in the ass, because any mage that wants to pass by the scene of the crime will be able to now have your signature as the spell lasts for the level of force in hours (and astral speed is very very speedy.)
How helpful aura photography is for forensic investigators, is a whole different problem.
AllTheNothing
To avoid detection the best way is using mundanes ways to accomplish things when possible, avoiding situations that force to use magic (if possible), using the Flexible Signature to reduce the signature (or if the spell's force is low enough to have it have someone else signature, to be used along with ritual samples of said someone left on site), and maybe dropping a Mana Static spell to mud the astral plane (used in combination with Flexible Signature can make the assensing a realy hard prospect).
masterofm
Read Theories on the nature of magic p. 167-168

"Magical skills are defined as the manipulation of mana... Conjuring manipulates mana to call forth, create, or
affect spirits." p. 168 BBB

"Anything magical in nature also casts a reflection on the astral; spells—the manipulation of mana—on the physical plane have a visible aura on the astral plane." p. 167 BBB

"Magical skills and abilities produce an astral signature on anything affected by them, which is detectable using assensing. An astral signature is the magical “fingerprint? of the Awakened creature who created it." p. 182 BBB

For emphasis. Sorry mate your wrong and I have the quotes that prove it. You use a magical skill to create a spirit. As long as that spirit is active it has your astral signature on it. It might have it's own astral sig, but they can see that the spirit also has your astral grubby fingerprints on it (which is why extended masking is nice to have.) There is a case to be made on when a spirit casts a spell if it still has your fingerprints on it, but if a mage sees a spirit it can pick up your auras fingerprints as well. Also I would look at astral tracking in the BBB (p. 184) however that is mainly for trying to track someone down by looking at the mages spirit.

I guess I was wrong about the 5th amendment thing, but hell I always thought of Shadowrun as so corrupt that most of those "rights" are pretty flimsy (I mean just because it is a right does not mean it gets broken even today.)

Cleansing is the best way to get rid of signatures. Dropping a mana static oddly enough just leaves your astral signature on the mana static. You might be able to mud other peoples signature with it, but yours would still stand out rules wise. Flexible sig works well though.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (masterofm @ Jan 29 2009, 08:00 PM) *
"Magical skills are defined as the manipulation of mana... Conjuring manipulates mana to call forth, create, or
affect spirits." p. 168 BBB
Correct

QUOTE
"Anything magical in nature also casts a reflection on the astral; spells—the manipulation of mana—on the physical plane have a visible aura on the astral plane." p. 167 BBB
Correct, as long as they're active. Permanent spells cease to have an aura as soon as they don't have to be sustained any longer.

QUOTE
"Magical skills and abilities produce an astral signature on anything affected by them, which is detectable using assensing. An astral signature is the magical “fingerprint? of the Awakened creature who created it." p. 182 BBB
No dispute here.

QUOTE
For emphasis. Sorry mate your wrong and I have the quotes that prove it. You use a magical skill to create a spirit. As long as that spirit is active it has your astral signature on it. It might have it's own astral sig, but they can see that the spirit also has your astral grubby fingerprints on it (which is why extended masking is nice to have.)
Yup. But who leaves his spirits running around? Moreover if the spirit is still present the opposition can just follow the spirit-summoner link.

QUOTE
There is a case to be made on when a spirit casts a spell if it still has your fingerprints on it, but if a mage sees a spirit it can pick up your auras fingerprints as well.
I was only talking about investigations after the perpetrators have left. There is no correlation between aura (face) and signature (fingerprint). So only if the observer of a spell being cast successfully assenses the caster and identifies the signature of the spell on its target can he later on say that the signature of a different spell corresponds to the same caster.

QUOTE
Cleansing is the best way to get rid of signatures. Dropping a mana static oddly enough just leaves your astral signature on the mana static. You might be able to mud other peoples signature with it, but yours would still stand out rules wise. Flexible sig works well though.
But erasing the signature of one spell may be quicker than erasing several others if you have not yet gotten the metamgic technique. Force 3 Mana Static gives the observers a pretty good visibility penalty, in the first hour at least, and can be erased by most magicians in under one round.
masterofm
Extended task means a spirit can take a trip around the world for you. You can send a spirit out magic X 100 meters. Watcher spirits. Permanent spells still leave a fingerprint from where you first cast the spell however, even if they no longer have an aura.

The question about spirits is if your signature is tied into the spirit and a spirit casts a spell does your aura that is tied into the spirits aura and the spirit casts a spell does it leave a finger print of spirits aura with your aura that is tied into the spirit.

You manipulate mana and it creates a spirit that has your astral signature. It is a reflection of your aura. That spirit drops a spell does it leave your aura? A spirit critter power does not leave a signature, a spell does. When you manipulate mana and it is active it has your aura - conjuring manipulates mana. If you have a sustained spell it has your aura, when you use a foci it has your aura, and when you summon a spirit it has your aura. When a spirit drops a spell it leaves your signature since it basically has your aura, because it is basically active mana that has been manipulated. That is one argument on why spirits drop your astral fingerprints.

To be fair this is reading into the rules when shadowrun has spotty rules to begin with. That may or may not have been the rules intentions, and there are a lot of loopholes that can be exploited in this system. Intent of the rules and reflection of the rules could always be two different things.

A mana static can obscure a group of spells that were laid down in the area. It takes time to make the spell permanent though. Well the awesome thing about cleansing is that it effects a specific area. When spells are flung generally the finger print is left on the target that you attacked. All it means is that if you want to clean up an area you can just clean up certain parts of it (mainly the ones where you blasted the opposition.) If the spells are not right next to each other then you can have a pretty good chance at wiping your sig while keeping theirs intact. Generally being a Shadowrunner though not leaving a trace of what you did I would say is more preferable then scouting out someone else's signature. Although that is really a black, or pink kind of call.
Dakka Dakka
QUOTE (masterofm @ Jan 29 2009, 09:29 PM) *
Permanent spells still leave a fingerprint from where you first cast the spell however, even if they no longer have an aura.
They only leave an signature on their targets, not a magic trail of breadcrumbs back to you.

QUOTE
The question about spirits is if your signature is tied into the spirit and a spirit casts a spell does your aura that is tied into the spirits aura and the spirit casts a spell does it leave a finger print of spirits aura with your aura that is tied into the spirit.
The signature is that of the creator of the magical effect, which is the spirit. The signature of the summoner is on the spirit but the spirit's signature is on the targets of its powers.

QUOTE
You manipulate mana and it creates a spirit that has your astral signature. It is a reflection of your aura.
At least some traditions would object to that. That is why the skills are called summoning (i.e. calling) and banishing (i.e. sending away) instead of creating and destroying
QUOTE
A spirit critter power does not leave a signature, a spell does.
They both do. You quoted it yourself:
QUOTE (SR4 p. 182)
Magical skills and abilities produce an astral signature on anything affected by them, which is detectable using assensing
If a critter power isn't a magical ability I don't know what is.
QUOTE
When you manipulate mana and it is active it has your aura - conjuring manipulates mana. If you have a sustained spell it has your aura, when you use a foci it has your aura, and when you summon a spirit it has your aura. When a spirit drops a spell it leaves your signature since it basically has your aura, because it is basically active mana that has been manipulated.
No. The Mage has an aura of an awakened metahuman (or critter for those with the RC) withmagic X, the spirit has the aura of the appropriate spirit type at force Y and a link to its summoner. The sustained spell has the aura of a spell of the appropriate tradition and a link to its caster.

QUOTE
A mana static can obscure a group of spells that were laid down in the area. It takes time to make the spell permanent though.
Which time you can spend anywhere. You don't have to be on the same plane of existence to sustain it. Very practical, if you can summon spirits of man.
QUOTE
Generally being a Shadowrunner though not leaving a trace of what you did I would say is more preferable then scouting out someone else's signature. Although that is really a black, or pink kind of call.
For the shadowrunning PCs you're right but the opposition should have to abide by the same rules. And an investigativer run might come up once in a while.
masterofm
A critter power is not actually a skill. Spellcasting, Conjuring, Enchanting, Archana are magical skills create sig, a creature using a critter power is not actually using a skill it is using a power. A spirit that uses influence on something as a critter power while having no dice in spell casting does not actually use a magical skill. If you had a spirit of man cast manaball it is using it's spell casting skill. A critter power is not a skill, however the rules are up to being interpreted different ways so it is kind of moot.
Dakka Dakka
I never said skill I and the bbb said ability. Engulfing someone in flames is an ability. No interpretation just RAW
AllTheNothing
QUOTE (masterofm @ Jan 29 2009, 08:00 PM) *
Cleansing is the best way to get rid of signatures. Dropping a mana static oddly enough just leaves your astral signature on the mana static. You might be able to mud other peoples signature with it, but yours would still stand out rules wise. Flexible sig works well though.

Cleanising works endeed great, and you are indeed right that Mana Static leaves your signature on the spell; however if you cast a Mana Static spell while you use Flexible Signature you can raise the background (imposing a penality on the assensing test) while leaving behind a reduced signature (a tird grade initiate dropping a force five Mana Static will produce an an astral signature of a force two spell), the thaumaturgic forensic will have to suffer the background count (they can't go straight with Cleanising or they will erase much of informations).
AllTheNothing
QUOTE (masterofm @ Jan 29 2009, 10:51 PM) *
A critter power is not actually a skill. Spellcasting, Conjuring, Enchanting, Archana are magical skills create sig, a creature using a critter power is not actually using a skill it is using a power. A spirit that uses influence on something as a critter power while having no dice in spell casting does not actually use a magical skill. If you had a spirit of man cast manaball it is using it's spell casting skill. A critter power is not a skill, however the rules are up to being interpreted different ways so it is kind of moot.

If it mainpolates mana it leaves a signature (Arcana doesn't as it can be used by mundanes).
masterofm
A 4th grade initiate is the stealth mage. Anything after that is generally boosting magic. Flexible sig, Masking, Ext masking, and Cleansing. Personally you can just forgo the flexible sig, but it is always good as a backup. Although that leads me to an interesting thread that I will post somewhere else. Needless to say after the huge side tracking business mages who don't have a job in a world like this one would be highly suspect. A mage w/o a SIN fake or no would take endless amounts of crap for it. A mage even with a SIN should be highly suspicious that they could be taken at any time especially a magic 5+ mage. If you look at magic in the same way you look at ratings a military grade mage would be worth taking and using willing, or unwilling.
AllTheNothing
QUOTE (masterofm @ Jan 30 2009, 12:37 AM) *
A 4th grade initiate is the stealth mage. Anything after that is generally boosting magic. Flexible sig, Masking, Ext masking, and Cleansing. Personally you can just forgo the flexible sig, but it is always good as a backup. Although that leads me to an interesting thread that I will post somewhere else. Needless to say after the huge side tracking business mages who don't have a job in a world like this one would be highly suspect. A mage w/o a SIN fake or no would take endless amounts of crap for it. A mage even with a SIN should be highly suspicious that they could be taken at any time especially a magic 5+ mage. If you look at magic in the same way you look at ratings a military grade mage would be worth taking and using willing, or unwilling.

Gear doesn't think, gear doesn't plot, gear doesn't complain, gear doesn't turn on you (the AI controlling it might but the gear itself not), gear doesn't have family, gear doesn't have friends.
Forcing someone to work is usualy hard unless you find a way to make him/her to want something so bad that he/she is willing to even do something he/she consider aberrant (for exemple working for you) in order to get it; this can be done creating a dipendency on something that you control (drugs? some form of simsense?) or by controlling something he/she cares for (family?), in the first case there is the risk of damaging the talent and/or making the subject psicologicaly instable (what happens if he/she goes toxic?), in the second he/she could develop a serious grudge toward you. While the corps will go far to make mages want to work for them, forcing said mages to work for them against their will is dangerous and very expensive, the only reason to do it is that the subject is a such badass in R&D or enchanting that it's worth to have a cadre of compentent (awakened) caretakers keep him/her in check 24/7.
It's not a matter of how powerfull the mage is but how much money he can produce (and how much it costs to the corp making him/her produce said money).

It's all about nuyen.gif and sense.
masterofm
And mages w/o jobs should throw up huge warning bells to anyone in the system. No job = either shadowrunner, or there is something seriously wrong with this person, or crazy toxic shaman, or crazy bug shaman. Not being in the system means unstable or shady any way you try and twist it. Stuffing a mage in a box and giving them anything they want is not the worst thing in the world especially in a world that sucks if you are on the bottom. Being off the grid for anyone else does not really matter. A street sam? Who cares, might be a burnout from a security company. A down and out rigger? Shit happens. A mage with a small portable army and can probably pull out some crack shit if trained right? Yeah... even the crappy mages can have their uses. A burnout cybersam can't bind spirits or prepare vessels for spirits. A rigger can get more drones, but drones can be hacked or brought down in other various ways. A mage always has uses and their spirits can't really be hacked. Not being employed says there is something seriously wrong with you one way or the other when you are magically active.
AllTheNothing
QUOTE (masterofm @ Jan 30 2009, 01:39 AM) *
And mages w/o jobs should throw up huge warning bells to anyone in the system. No job = either shadowrunner, or there is something seriously wrong with this person, or crazy toxic shaman, or crazy bug shaman. Not being in the system means unstable or shady any way you try and twist it. Stuffing a mage in a box and giving them anything they want is not the worst thing in the world especially in a world that sucks if you are on the bottom. Being off the grid for anyone else does not really matter. A street sam? Who cares, might be a burnout from a security company. A down and out rigger? Shit happens. A mage with a small portable army and can probably pull out some crack shit if trained right? Yeah... even the crappy mages can have their uses. A burnout cybersam can't bind spirits or prepare vessels for spirits. A rigger can get more drones, but drones can be hacked or brought down in other various ways. A mage always has uses and their spirits can't really be hacked. Not being employed says there is something seriously wrong with you one way or the other when you are magically active.

Magic comes in many flavours, some are completely devoid of any ethical restrictions (magic is an instrument, the mage choses how to use it), for others magic comes with porpouse or even comes from it (take the voodoo, its pratictioners are handpicked by loas, magic is a gift and a duty, what the corp want is irrelevant at best); some peoples might just be honest citizens that prefere to work for the comunity, commune with spirits, mind their own buisness, whatever instead of being a wageslave.
The Jake
QUOTE (Hagga @ Jan 29 2009, 11:28 AM) *
Someone posted this a while back:
http://evenmere.org/~bts/SR/sr3permits.html
And in the BBB, all spells bar combat spells are listed restricted, combat being forbidden. That means licenses.


Interesting. Cheers.

The other thing to consider is that forbidden items you cannot obtain permits for. At least not for SR4.

Another big reason for having no SIN as a mage is to intentionally fly below the radar. Even if you're not a runner, I'd doubt you'd go hungry if you had the Art (by that I mean you have more options than a mundane).

- J.
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