Focus addiction is RAW, wheras wires have no RAW longterm disadvantage. I think it is reasonable to impose a focus addiction to a mage who keeps his spell up continually, just as it would be reasonable to impose drug addiction if a player said he was going to boost his IP with drugs all the time, slapping another derm when the old one runs out.

I have a mage who only pulls out the Imp Reflexes sustaining focus combo when he is going into combat. He also takes Psych whenever he expects to be sustaining a lot of spells. IMO he is in more danger from a Psych addiction than he is of focus addiction, but if he was to wander around with his foci powered up all the time, that's another matter.

The only problem with this obvious combo is that you can cheaply get 4 ips long before the street sammie or adept.

I'm curious. How much better are 4 IPs over 3 IPs? How often is a local combat over by the 3rd IP?

These questions lead to my bigger question. Is it really worth worrying about whether magicians get a 4th IP before mundanes do? If it isn't all that important to have a 4th IP, then all this fussing over that 4th IP is a waste of time and effort.

How do you figure that?

Even without the focus, a mage can take the Improved Reflexes spell at char gen, and it is trivial to cast it at a high enough force to get 4 IPs. Admittedly picking up the focus then costs substantial nuyen and a little karma, but one doesn't need to. -2 dice is nothing much if one has a high enough dice pool anyway. The only place the spell falls down is that it doesn't provide the reaction bonus, but frankly, by RAW, that's of negligible importance. Most PC mage's will just cast 4 stunballs or similar a turn, which doesn't need reaction.

Frankly, I find that by rendering extra IPs are rendered less important, this whole issue goes away.

just up drain for each spell cast in succession a bit?
maybe +1 for the second, +2 for the third, +3 for the fourth spell?
or something along those lines?

I'd have my spirit of man cast it on me anyway, so I wouldn't be taking any drain and I wouldn't have to sustain the spell either...

Per RAW the highest force required is 4, giving a drain of 4DV (F/2+2). Any changes would be a houserule, and while the spell could stand to be nerfed a bit, I don't want a big book of ammendments and houserules alongside my BBB if I can avoid it, so prefer not to institute little fixes for individual spells.

Having a spirit cast the spell is an easy and cheap way around sustaining foci, but does mean that you can't have the spirit cast any other spells. That being said, a PC in my campaign does use that technique to buff himself, with the armour spell, however.

I don't know in the 3rd ed (what you play right?) but in the 4th ed when you cast it the effect is determined by the number of hits scored: you need 2 hits for +1 initiative +1 IP (and so at least a force 2 spell), 3 hits for +2 initiative +2 IP (and so at least a force 3 spell), 4 hits for +3 initiative +3 IP (and so at least a force 4 spell); being that sustaining foci have an aviability of (Force x 4)R you need the Restricted Gear quality to have force 4 one at chargen (for the meager price of 40'000 , or 20 months of low lifestyle).

Don't know about other people's games, but with my group combat rarely seems to last past the second phase--and if it does, things have gone very wrong. Honestly, I'd been kicking my self for spending all that karma boosting my adept's improved reflexes power to 2.

Also, regarding the improved reflexes spell, the lack of an actual reflex boost does make a big difference--on defense rolls. While every other IP boost in the game makes it easier for you to dodge attacks, that spell doesn't, which can make it a little tough to live long enough to use those extra passes.

It also depends on how big dicepools are, and how big a factor modifiers are - cover, visibility, movement. I suspect a lot of times, combat is cut short because several modifiers were not applied.

If you're replaying the shootout at the OK Corral, combat rarely lasts long. If you're used to take cover first, then get a fix on the enemy, move, and shoot, combat last a lot more rounds.

One big advantage of having more IPs is that you can use the full defense action and still get to attack the slower enemies.

True, though melee builds with the right choice of maneuvers can full-parry for free.

Part of it is escalation, our group's gotten to the point where all it takes is one or two hits from either side to bring somebody down, so usually things are over one way or the other by the end of the second IP. Cover and whatnot are regularly used, but between the tacnet, the host of drones, sensors, weapons, and equiptment we have, and the number of players in our group, it's hard to get us in a situation we don't have a response to--and as a result the GM has to be equally deadly with the threats he sends us.

Closest we came was last run when we got ambushed by a rival shadowrunner team--all prime runners with more karma and gear than us, lying in wait at the airport. That went into the 4th IP, if I recall. We lost a few vehicles, and a few of our guys took some damage, but we geeked the mage with a rocket barrage and got the rest to retreat--then called Hong Kong security and fed them select trid footage of the apparent "terrorist group" running amok at the airport. (We cut out our half of the fight to make it look like they were just tearing up the place.)

Split dicepool = 8 fireballs

Dodge that.

Why should mages not be allowed to boost their abilities and act more frequently? How is one F6 manabolt worse than a 6p+Long Burst attack from a Sam? Worse, the Sam has NO possibility of blowing his own head up or knocking himself out!

Smart Mages stack themselves up a couple sustaining foci (smart mages literally, as the amount of Active Foci you can have is limited by your Logic!) to hold up their Improve Willpower and Improve Reflex Spells, and likely another one for Improved Invisibility, and ONE MORE if they can afford it for Improved 'Drain Resisting Stat Of Choice'. This lets the magician get away with 2, 3, even 4 spells in a round, just like the Cyber Sam.

Only it's cost him 3x as much nuyen, AND Karma to bond the focuses.

Full Auto Sam = Better than mage for damage dealing. Period. The math simply doesn't stack up. Not even with the semi-unresistable direct damage spells. Not even casting EIGHT of them in a round. And remember to stack those vision penalties and the 'second target' penalties as well.

This argument has made no sense to me since it was first brought up.

You do realize that for a piddly four dice bonus to your Magic, you have /become a household name/, with Trid-Shows based on your exploits, and you have increased NO other skills or abilities? You are a /base starting character/ with +4 Magic and 4 initiation grade.

10+30xInitation Grade is the formula.
Grade 1: 40Karma (40Karma)
Grade 2: 70Karma (110Karma)
Grade 3: 100Karma (210Karma)
Grade 4: 130Karma (340Karma)

Let's NOT EVEN ASSUME that you have started with a maximum magic rating for this yahoo.

Magic 5: 15Karma
Magic 6: 18Karma (33)
Magic 7: 21Karma (54)
Magic 8: 24Karma (78)

So for (78+340=418)Karma you have gained Initiation 4. That means +4 Dice to Magical Actions. You still knock yourself out resisting drain. You havn't learned ANY new spells. You havn't bound any foci. You still have all your starting attributes and skills (with the notable exclusion of Magic) and you havn't spent any Karma on making any of your spells quickened or using Karma for anything else. Your Street Rep is 42. Your Public Awareness is /14/. It becomes impossible to get a job with a PA of 14. The only people that want to hire you are in Bollywood and LA.

Achieving PA of 10 is pretty much game over for the Shadowrunner. Time to hang up your hat and retire. These people are Charles Bronson, Rambo, David Copperfield, Madonna, and Donald Trump. They're Bruce Lee, Penn & Teller, Billy Gates, and Al Unser Jr... These aren't the people you hire to take out your dirty laundry, they're the people you hire to model for trids and consult on 'the real gritty atmosphere of the life of the shadowrunner'. Or in the case of mr Magic 8 Initiate Grade 4 Hypermage, 'whats it really like out there in the deepest realms of magic'?

Of course his only response is "Dunno. I went on runs and raised my initiate grade. I never /actually/ raised my Assenssing or Astral Combat above 2.."

Even if you did take 30% off the cost of the initiation, it's still 238. That's still 316 Karma and a PA over 10 for taking group initiation and extra limitations and sacrifices and quests during two of their initiations. Worse, you're looking at 155Karma /just/ for the Adepts NEXT INITIATIVE PASS. How's that fair? 155? That's like 31 runs... Who even survives that long?

You misplaced a decimal there.

SR4, p. 189: "The cost to initiate is equal to 10 + (Grade x 3) in Karma points. Characters who wish to initiate must pay that cost in order to achieve their new grade."

So, Initiate Costs are:
Grade 1: 13 karma
Grade 2: 16 karma
Grade 3: 19 karma
Grade 4: 22 karma

Not to mention that the standard rules for public awareness are totally f'ing dumb, and should be used as a last-ditch guideline, not as a literality. The concept that the public becomes aware of you based on how much karma you earn, regardless of how you earn it, or how many times you change your face? Yeah, please ignore that. It's nonsensical in the extreme.

Actualy reading the BBB at p.189 (4th ed) the initiation cost is 10 + (GRADE x 3) so:
Grade 1: 13 Karma (13 Karma)
Grade 2: 16 Karma (29 Karma)
Grade 3: 19 Karma (48 Karma)
Grade 4: 22 Karma (70 Karma)

Which means that it takes "only" 148 karma to reach a Magic attribute of 8 and an Initiate grade of 4 (by the way Magic has a cap of essence + initiate grade, due the fact that "off the rack" people have an essence score of 6 you could have a Magic attribute of 8 with an initiate grade of 2 saving 41 karma); being Street Cred 1/10 of the karma gained (round up) + various modifiers depending on how the character is played it would be a Street Cred of 15+ (11+ if only 2nd grade initiate) which would be a Public Awarness of 5+ (4+ if only 2nd grade initiate), which is still high. However you have to take in account that reputations rules aren't one of the best conceived part of the rules and usualy (at least in the groups that I've played with) notoriety is a part of the story, you got broadcasted midrun, it goes up (and the street cred down), you do something that becomes a legend in the shadows, it might go up (some people catch the buzz of something big has happened), not because I've done 10'000 shitty runs and so I've put together X experience, enough to be a celebrity (hell just think about someone that does alot of city hopping, maybe he/she has a decent reputation in all the cities he/she visited but even with the matrix his/hers actual experience far excides what people are able to put together).

In my game, it isn't a big deal 1) because the players naturally decided that 3 passes for everyone was kewl, since the system pretty much penalizes heavily for the 4th one, and 2) the spell says it is a THRESHOLD that must be reached, and I ruled that like all other Thresholds in the game, if you FAIL to get enough hits, the attempt also FAILED. So the mage can take Drain for a spell that failed to reach the Threshold he set BEFORE CASTING THE SPELL. Since getting 4 successes is no easy thing EVERY TIME, he usually chooses to go at Force 3/Threshold 3 or less, just to be sure he gets it.

In my games the you set the force and it just caps the maximum number of hits, than the actual number of hits determines how good the spell is; so with a force 4 Increase Reflexes with two hits you still gain an extra IP, with three hits two extra IPs and with four you get the trird extra IP.

Umm... no.



And an adept can dump all his magic points into Improved Reflexes if he really wants and get 4 IP. Sure he gets nothing else really, but it can be done.

Taking this argument however, whats stopping an adept getting a rank 2 Power Focus at chargen, binding it and getting Improved Reflexes (3) and putting the spare points into additional abilities??


- J.

Ehhh... Apart from the fact that an adept can't learn/cast spells?

Even in SR3, when power foci added directly to the effective Magic rating, they did not give you extra power points.

However...an adept can still get improved reflexes: 3 and have either one more power point for other goodies, or one point of Essense in bioware (such as using the restricted gear quality to get muscle toner: 4, and adding a reflex recorder for a skill group). And that adept can also take the restricted gear quality, again, to get a Force: 4 weapon focus on top of that. Yeah, blowing 5 power points on initiative is not the most optimal adept build, but they still don't have to be mere one-trick ponies if they do so.

Magical Group: 5 Karma
Grade 1: 7 Karma (12)
Grade 2: 9 Karma (21)
Grade 3: 11 Karma (32)
Grade 4: 13 Karma (45)
Magic 6: 18 Karma (63)
Magic 7: 21 Karma (84)
Magic 8: 24 Karma (108)

Street Cred 11; Public Awareness 3


Also, while I do agree that the public awareness rules are generally stupid, they do work (more or less), & any character that becomes famous this way is fucking retarded. Note: Public Awareness increases as Street Cred / Notoriety increases - you can decrease Street Cred to remove Notoriety, & thus reduce Public Awareness.

Your numbers for the first two gradesare off:

Magical Group: 5 Karma
Grade 1: 8 Karma (13)
Grade 2: 10 Karma (23)
Grade 3: 11 Karma (34)
Grade 4: 13 Karma (47)
Magic 6: 18 Karma (65)
Magic 7: 21 Karma (86)
Magic 8: 24 Karma (110)

You round up, no? So 7.8 becomes 8, 9.6 becomes 10, and so on. And that assumes an ordeal at each initiation.

Initiation ordeal can be a very quiet thing, just find a place in the wilderness to camp and meditate.

@Muspellsheimr: I did remember that rule, my point is that the reputation rules shouldn't be used by RAW, they should houseruled.

We're discussing initiative, not spellcasting.

The discussion was on who could obtain a higher initiative at a quicker level, with respect to magicians vs adepts vs mundanes.

I'm arguing an adept (hell even a mundane) can do it quicker/easier than a magician - at least with less consequence. YMMV.



Those numbers unfortunately don't factor in the cost of increasing the Magic attribute or other associated costs as required, only the initiation cost - which is a drop in the bucket in the life of a magician.

- J.

They do include the cost to increase Magic attribute:
Magic 6: 18 Karma (65)
Magic 7: 21 Karma (86)
Magic 8: 24 Karma (110)

What other associated costs are there?

While it is poorly worded, it has been confirmed that it is reduced by 20%, round up - not reduced to 80%, round up. In other words, it is the reduction, & not the final value, that is rounded. My numbers are correct.

Ahh my bad, I presume that's the figure in parenthesis.

Ok, well, Ordeal costs extra for starters and not always karma.

Sometimes they cost additional karma (Familiar) or burning of an attribute permanently (Sacrifice). Or sometimes you just need to take on a flaw without any BP for it (Suffering). Infact Ordeals
also take time (like performing a Deed) - even if that doesn't suck up karma you still spending time undergoing it. How much time does it take a street sam in game to get a wired reflexes upgrade?

- J.

The fact that getting a rank 2 Power Focus doesn't give him two more power points, only adding two dice to all tests that add magic to their dice pools.

Or the fact that an adept can't bond a Power Focus at all.

Aside from that, nothing I can see.

And I am reminding you that it is impossible for an adept to do that. An adept can't do what you have described above.

What part is impossible? There's nothing in the BBB to say an adept cannot use a power focus. I'm fairly certain this was possible in earlier editions as well...

- J.

How does it relate to improved reflexes, though? All it does is give a +2 bonus for tests using the Magic Attribute, such as Attribute Boost. An adept is usually better off getting a weapon focus.

BBB p. 85:

"Adepts may only bond to weapon foci. Magicians and mystic adepts can bond to any type of focus."

Also, p. 192, Power Foci:

"A power focus adds its Force to all tests in which the magician's magic is included."

My mind can't fathom an interpretation of the Power Focus that would somehow allow it to grant more power points, even if the Adept could bind one to begin with.

Thank you Yami - I was looking for that, but could not find it (you would think they would include it in the Focus - Bonding section...)

Jake, I strongly suggest you actually check the rules before posting - nearly everything you have been posting has been very obviously incorrect.

Could you link me to where this has been stated? Cos obviously it'd be very useful information to have!

An interpretation that comes from earlier editions of the game I think.

I also can't fathom an interpretation that requires knowledge of a different gaming system, even if they are from the same continuity.

We had this problem during the 4th edition opening in D&D as well. It's really simpler to forget everything you knew about the previous edition's crunch. It will only throw a wrench in things.



Yeah, it took more digging than I thought it would. It is obscurely placed for sure, and I can see how it could be overlooked.

That can be hard to do though. If you play the same system for a long time, you tend to reflexively memorize the mechanics, making it hard to switch gears. I sometimes make this mistake between systems that have nothing to do with each other!

I actually searched the BBB for that one. I don't know how I missed that.

I completely agree on the point from past editions.



I wouldn't say EVERYTHING - that's a bit unduly harsh. Although this past week I certainly admit I have made more than my fair share of errors.

- J.

I think that Jake had a point, in the magic related section of the FAQ on the official SR 4th ed site it's stated that adept CAN bind a power focus, it doesn't grant extra powerpoints but it adds it's bonus to all the tests involving the adept's magic attribute.

No it doesn't. It says that a mystic adept can bind a Power Focus, and that this Power Focus will add dice to rolls for adept powers requiring a Magic Test, e.g. Attribute Boost. Normal adepts are very clearly not allowed to bind any foci other than weapon foci under the BBB.

See, that's the part that's confusing to me. There is a focus, which can be used for tests involving adept powers, but pure adepts can't bind it. Why? It's hardly game-breaking. In fact, the adept would be spending quite a lot for comparatively little.

I will reiterate that the power focus did NOT give adepts extra power points in SR3, either. Which is a good thing, because you could start out with a Force: 6 power focus.

In my opinion an adept should be able to bind any focus, than if he/she is idiot enough to bind a spellcasting focus that he/she can't use it's his/hers problem and fault, he/she just wasted some of his/hers hardearned karma; let it be a lesson: just think about what you're about to do before doing it.

I searched through Synner's posts on the subject, & did not find it, which leads me to believe it was Ancient or Adam. I am far to lazy [tired] to search through all their posts on Initiation as well, so I sent a PM to Synner. I will hopefully have a link soon.

Okay, I feel compelled to reply to this thread since I'm the GM directly concerned on this matter.

I've read all the posts and considered the valuable arguments put forth ; Focus addiction, astral presence, balance compared to the other players, etc.

Yet in the end I have to agree with Browncoatome and Fuch, and so I haven't changed my decision. (Sorry Gobogen)

The reality of my game is this : I have three players, each character they are playing have their own skills and attributes that sets them apart from one another. That's what makes them unique and fun for their players to play. One is an Adept sniper military type. This player burned 3 Magic Points to get Improved Reflexes 2, whitch gives him 3 IP. I'll say it again; 3 Magic Points -half of his precious (and BP expensive) 6 starting Magic Points of Adept Powers. That's his special edge, no other character in the team has this ability. The other player is a pistol specialist and infiltrator, this guy's got Wired 1 and a little cyber. That's 2 IP. But his special edge is not his speed like the other player; it's his deadliness with pistols and his abilities for infiltration. That's what sets him apart. Gobogen's character, on the other hand, is a pyromaniac religious fanatic with an impressive array of powerful spells such as Fireball, Ignite, Stunbolt, Influence, Improved Invisibility, Levitate, Mind Probe, Physical Barrier, etc. That's not counting his conjuring, astral projection, assensing and the like. AND his Edge stat of 6. Somehow I don't see how giving him the potential ability to shoot four fireballs in a single combat turn would contribute to the enjoyment of the game -especially for the other players.

I should also point out that, with the exception of myself, Gobogen is the only veteran player at the table. The other two players have a very limited expericence with SR and I know Gobogen will have a much easier time handling the complexities of the SR world, which is an advantage in itself.

The bottom line is this : I am the GM of this campain and it's up to me to make sure everyone has fun playing it. Weither that means toning down some aspects of the game -always keeping into consideration the input of the players- is a decision that is mine to make. What I don't understand, and people on this forum should know this, is how some tend to resort to inflammatory comments when a GM decides to alter some rules for his game (I'm talking to you, The Jake -take it easy bro).
I personnally like the basic archetypes in the SR4 main book. They're fun, well thought of, and balanced. It shouldn't be about who's got the most powerful, maxed-out character, but about how enjoyable the character will be to play.

And if it turns out that I'm wrong, that denying my player a sustrained Improved Reflexes actually makes him underpowered compared to the other players, then I'll openly do my mea culpa and set things right for him. Simple as that.

While I disagree with your opinion of the main book archetypes, if you think that the basic archetypes in the main books is the middle ground of what shadowrunners in your campaign is going to be, then it should be fine for game balance in your game.

Although quite frankly, I do not see why another player's character being able to shoot 4 fireballs in a combat turn would lessen my enjoyment of the game, particularly if shooting each of those 4 fireballs has a good chance of hurting himself. We are reminded time and again that it is not GM vs players, we should also remember that it should not player vs player either.

On the one hand, I can see the desire for some parity in the group, with everyone getting an area to shine. In one of the forum games, I re-worked a character as a face when I saw she would be redundant as a gunslinger. But on the other hand, I don't think an experienced player should have to be hobbled to bring him down to the same level as the newbies. It's like me playing a team FPS game for the first time, and whining because the other player shoots more aliens than me. Let the newbies learn from the experienced player, and let the experienced player's well-crafted character encourage them to learn more of the rules and game mechanics. With just three players, it's not like there won't be plenty of stuff for everyone to do.

Yes, Shadowrun is a dystopian game. But it's not Harrison Bergeron.

Just a quick mention: I had a mage that did the improved reflexes thing (BTW, you need a sustaining focus lvl 3 to get two extra IPs, because the spell itself has threshold cost of 1. Costs 30 000 so it is pretty expensive for those BPs.) Anyway, it didn't do too much in the way of unbalancing, surprisingly enough. My mage was HORRIBLE with a gun, and was decent with a combat axe. Not on the level of the street sam, though. I still couldn't toss too many spells around, because eventually I would suffer drain and suck it up.

What it did do was make sure I wasn't bored while the Street sam and the Physad went to town in combat, I was allowed to participate too. I couldn't best them, but I could at least contribute instead of twiddling my thumb. Wasn't too unbalancing, because I got to do stuff, but not as well as the combat classes, and the GM just sent more bad guys against us.