I remember around here-actually, a couple of times-a cost system was attempted to be put together for the races, to actually see the BP cost of them. I forget what each other ''benefit'' was worth-I think I've seen both 5 BP and 10 BP for vision stuff, Reach, etc. I'd personally put stuff like that at around 5 BP/benefit.)


Of course, putting it even more under the microscope, you start factoring in things like stat weight. Technically, this should not have to be as big a concern, and I wish every stat was equal in some way, but they aren't. For example-I'd actually put Body/Willpower at the top, even above the godlike Agility stat; simply because EVERYONE can benefit from Body and Willpower. A couch-potato Dronerigger who never leaves his bunker can actually get away with a lower Agility-but Body/Will still can indeed help him, as he can be attacked-same for a hacker. Look at any character optimization thread; moreso than any other stat, if these are under 3 it's usually universally referred to as a no-no.

Agility and Reaction would be right under them, IMO for the sheer amount of stats linked to the former(yes, some non-combat, like Gymnastics, Infiltration, Escape Artist.) Also, it is THE Combat Stat to have. Reaction is another stat that helps keep you alive in the form of Dodge(and can possibly result in you taking no damage); and in the case of a drone-rigger that lives in a shell, Reaction is the piloting stat. It also helps Initiative. I'd be willing to put it up here, at the worst right under Agility. But I'll group them together here.

Charisma and Intuition, and to a lesser extent Logic make up the next ''tier''. Nothing too uber, but they are all good in their own right for people who even aren't specialists. Charisma/Intuition I'd weigh slightly heavier than Logic; i'd even be willing to put Logic as the next tier down, if it weren't a Drain stat and it didn't help Knowledge skills. In any case, these three all make up half of mage's Drain stats for them. Intuition helps your Initiative as well as Perception, which isn't a thing that should be underestimated. Charisma might be in the realm of a more Facelike person, but anyone can benefit from this stat, as it's nice for anyone to be able to not look like an idiot in front of someone when trying to fit in. Not every archetype needs a bleeding-high Charisma or Logic, but again, they aren't bad. If I were playing an archetype that didn't *need* either of these but I only had to drop 1, I'd probably just let the character decide, in a sense, at that point, if I wanted a couple more social graces or the ability to tinker with an odd thing/more knowledges. Intuition isn't a good stat to dump, IMO.

Finally, at the tail-end, we have poor ol' little Strength. You'd think it helps you at least hurt people better. it does-but there are other, meaner ways. When a 1-Strength 90 pound weakling can have +3 DV from Martial Arts, 3 more from Bone Lacing and do as much as an Assault Rifle...yeah. A 1 Strength bio-adept with 3 from martial arts, 5 from Critical Strike and 2 more from Bone Lacing can do more than a Panther Cannon. It helps you run, swim, and climb-but again, there are other ways around this(cyberskates, internal breathing/floating things, climbing gear and Synthacardium which increases ALL athletics)...you don't need a lot. When even *combat* archetypes consider dropping the stat, there's a problem. It links to nearly nothing, even the things it links to can be compensated for, and the one other benefit you could use-Recoil-comes too little, too late in the stat, and you'd probably be better off just customizing the hell out of your gun instead. Really, Strength is reduced to a flavor stat. I use it often for this, but it really is just a flavor stat 85% of the time it seems.

Edge might well be at the top of this list. It's too good of a stat sometimes. It should have a chart of it's own. But this is more about the base stats.

Looking at it like this, the races with the big Strength bonuses(orks, trolls, dwarves), many times just use these as a ''ahh, cool now I don't need to spend points on Strength.'' The BODY bonuses they get, now, are extremely awesome. Dwarves get a double-whammy of both Body AND Willpower-only +1 each, but it's there. Their -1 reaction sort of lowers that, but it's not horrible. Trolls get the -1 Agility, but the +1 reach to help them in melee. Elves get the Agility and Charisma, making them a race you'd THINK should be one of the more expensive, but since Charisma is a solid but not ALWAYS necessary stat, it could cut them back a bit.

Even with this chart, the meta prices are still kind of off. I still think Elves could cost 20 BP and not be overpowered. Likewise, Orks should be at least 30. Given how good Edge is, Humans do indeed have a little benefit here. Dwarves could cost 30 and probably not be overpriced.

However, back to Karmagen:



I still think in Karmagen you're likely to find some base 5 strength trolls, but maybe not quite as many as BP. But yes, stats do tend to be a hell of a lot less minmaxed under Karma. Yes, partially because you can get some more out, but I'd again rather see more believable stats that might be 1 higher down the line.

Under the BP system, much the same?

Under the BP system metaraces at least do cost something.

They do cost something, true.

But it's STILL more cost-effective to play many things as some races than a human.

Edge is an awesome stat, yes. But the good ol' Orks can still afford it.

Let's see a basic Human Mage. (Not adding in Magic yet, assume max, or whatnot.) Base stats plus Edge:

B: 3(20)
A: 3(20)
R: 3(20)
S: 2(10)
C: 4(30)
I: 3(20)
L: 5(40)
W: 5(40)

Edge: 3(10)

Cost: 210 BP.

Ork:

B: 4(0)
A: 3(20)
R: 3(20)
S: 3(0)
C: 3(20)
I: 5(40)
L: 3(20)
W: 5(40)
E: 3(20)

Ork: 20

Cost: 200 BP.

Yes, the Ork pays 10 less and ends up with better stats and the same Edge as a human. Cost or no cost, it's still more beneficial. Even though the Strength isn't needed; the extra point is still THERE, though it could be there or not, really. The extra free point of Body is nice, however-that's an armor boost right there, as well.

What it boils down to mechanically, is that there is rough reason to play a human under either system. Indeed, at least under Karma elves become a bit more desirable.

The thing is, how does one make a human more desirable? Overcosting the metas like in SR2 isn't the answer, IMO-then you end up with the other end of the spectrum. The extra point of Edge is great, but it's not a turning point for most people. The ''blandness'' thing of being able to fit in about anywhere is a good thing, but not a dealbreaker for people(even a GM who played the racism rules to the letter all the time I don't think would find a sudden influx of all humans.)

No, more likely he'd just see a bunch of orks with Human-Looking. I really don't like that Edge...

All my players used the BP system, and all of them are human. Mostly for simplicity I'd guess, since many of them are new to the game (or were when we started). However, they are far from optimised builds. I doubt they think about our games between sessions as much as I do as GM.

What advantage to you see in that fact, mechanically speaking?

Make Humans more desirable? How about giving them a free +1 to any stat choice (Physical or Mental; subject to racial maximums) on top of the benefits they already get.

The reasoning behind it being humans come from a large and varied ancestry As such, some are naturally stronger or smarter, or more durable, etc than others of the same race.

It's better if you have to pay something to get an ork or elf instead of nothing, given the advantages they get.

Any costs in mind Fuchs?

I've not played with karma gen, although I was considering migrating to it due to the suggestions that it promotes well rounded characters instead of hyperspecialists.

I can understand frustration with the relative position of humans. The (mechanical) disadvantage is there. The advantage of belonging to the "dominant" race is an RP thing, and one that falls under the table often. Yet BP and karma system do much the same in that regard.

If I wanted to give humans a boost, I´d follow on ornots suggestion, and raise him to 2 floating +1 attributes, with a baseline edge of 1.

Looks good to me

Under Karmagen:
A Human with all stats at Natural Max would cost 480 karma. Add Edge 7 and that's 555 points.
A Dwarf with all stats at Natural Max would cost 522 karma. Add Edge 6 and that's 582 points.
An Elf with all stats at Natural Max would cost 525 karma. Add Edge 6 and that's 585 points.
An Ork with all stats at Natural Max would cost 519 karma. Add Edge 6 and that's 579 points.
A Troll with all stats at Natural Max would cost 513 karma. Add Edge 6 and that's 573 points.

This pretty much shows that stats have to be pretty close to maxed out for that to be the major balance factor for removing the racial costs from Karmagen.