Tech'ies have a higher max potential dice pool while threading and using sprites. Hackers have a higher base dice pool. A decent starting hacker is going to have 11+ dice all the time (Response/System 5 Commlink, Rating 5 programs, Cracking SG 4, Hotsim). That is not even counting specialties or any of the qualities that add dice. Now if you want to really go whole hog with a Hacker, here is an example.
As you can see, a 17 all the time Hacking pool is kinda hard to touch and a Hacker can actually start with all that.

Make sure that 6 of your most common used programs have the "Ergonomic" and "Crashguard" options. Give you Hacking programs hacking specific options as time/cost allows. A Software Programing Suite (R: 5) is very useful for this. I would suggest building up a defensive Software Suite with "Ergonomic", "Crashguard", and "Viral Resistance 6".

My example Hacker has 22 dice for on the fly and 17 dice for stealth (without Agents) all the time, with no fading. Sure you can beat me by a little dice in one area for a short time. But lets see you keep it up long term. Along with more actions most of the time as well.

If I go the route my PC hacker took, I would also have 4 Commlinks with Rating 6 agents (his main one is implanted) to give me teamwork. Though I don't allow that in my game. He uses them, along with the 5 Fetch modules, to do lots of things at once.

The key here is that a hacker is limited to a rating 6 stealth. All the time. Stealth is a "passive" program since it is a threshold for the opposition (ie, firewalls) to detect your hacking. Hacking on the fly can be dangerous with a rating 6 stealth...

Another fun way that TMs excel is getting their attack programs up high; a hacker is limited to rating 6. Don't get me wrong, a rating 6 blackhammer will kill you. A rating 10+ will just kill you much faster. (And those paladin sprites. They make me happy. Thank god I didn't write them or else my GM would probably ban them from our game... I love paladins...)

Another key thing (that perhaps many ignore) is that hot-sim is addictive to hackers (edit: to anyone except TMs). If a hacker spends all their time in hot sim getting that speed and VR bonus, it is reasonable for the GM to start calling for addiction tests.

But yes, both hackers and tms can get their dice pools up high with little effort. It's the passive ratings - like Stealth - where a TM has an advantage. [note: this advantage may or may not be worth the trade offs to you. YMMV.]

Very true Tiger. Techies have the advantage of being pure sneaky, high perception, and the ability to go hyper power for short periods of time. This is countered by Hackers have more dice most of time time, no "Fading", normally more actions, and a broader range of Complex F... err... programs.

*EDIT*
If you make an Adept Hacker, then things get really interesting. You still can't match the high passive Comp... Program rating of the Techie but you can get your dice pools up to nearly their peak level, plus some other interesting effects.

yeah, having the actual ratings of their programs boosted is definitely one of the scarier features of technomancers. having a command program that gives you an effective attribute in the teens, or an attack/blackout/black hammer CF that one-shots even the toughest enemies is just not doable no matter how good your hacker is.

Only on account of the Programming rules being pointless for 'runners. Command 12 + Optimise 6 allows you to run it on a very high end rig. It's only a matter of time. Rating 12 Stealth is just Rating 12 stealth. Military hardware apparently hits Rating 10, letting Hackers hit Rating 20 Programs.

It takes a lot of work to get there, but Hackers can hit 26 dice.

The axiom is "Rating 12 Programs aren't special unless your GM won't let Hackers have (the) nice things (that the normal rules do)."

Want to see TMs hit a nasty limit? If the GM uses the optional skill + Logic (Program Cap) rule from Unwired, they lose a whole lot of their nice little boost over Hackers. I've actually been using this rule in my game, without no one even interested in playing a TM (and they were all SR newbies). I didn't even realize how much it dorks TMs.

This is something that I just don't understand and why I want to run more of this hacking. Good that things are dangerous, I mean... its good to have risk and challenge, right? The following has been my understanding. It is likely flawed and should not be considered an attack on the system. If anything it should be considered a quest for deeper understanding.

Assuming the following is correct, Hacking + Exploit (Plus a host of other bonuses) threshold Firewall, and to be noticed its Analyze + Firewall threshold Stealth, it would only be notably dangerous if the Analyze and Firewall were greater than the Hacking and Exploit, or if you are trying for "got root". From the characters that have come to my table, rating 6 for the software and skills of 4, the bonuses give them an edge(pun not intended) and make everything trivial until every node has a 6 Firewall and Threshold. I don't even see anything to horribly over specialized (IMO) codeslinger, specialized in Exploit and hot sim give 6 dice. While I understand from reading some of the posts on Dumpshock rolling 16 dice isnt too impressive (it is however cheap to build), 16 dice against 12 is still advantageous. From my perspective, the only danger comes in when you raise your threshold.
All of that assuming the node has Analyze and Firewall at 6, which I almost never setup. I assume those ratings are , again no pun intended, Paragons of the software world. Only the toughest of nodes would be setup with both at 6. When the dice slip to 16 against 10, you have room to raise the threshhold. And in this case a 5,5 system would still be very strong (IMO). Is there a book with some example nodes?
And I hope that deeper aspects are glanced over on Dumpshock. Its my hope that when I understand the hacking system, its not just about who has the biggest dice pool.

As for the addiction, its awfully fuzzy writing. How much is "to much" (assuming that's supposed to be "too much"?). It won't ever hit me because my GM is so old school, he won't ever think its too much. Whereas in my game, its the Riggers who wind up spending all their time in hot sim. If I started penalizing people for doing what they liked to do in character, it would not be long before we were playing another game.

I gotta agree that it is Riggers and not Hackers that are much more likely to suffer from Hot Sim addition. And you are very right in your target/difficulty numbers. Most system targets will be greatly outclassed by a starting Hacker or well built TM (not counting a Security Spider of course).

My game uses the 'Using Attributes' optional rule, which cuts down on a TMs power even more, though Sprites are still nasty as ever.

it also powers them up in the meatworld though, because having a huge resonance means a bit less.

even so, there are a few programs where rating does more than just add to the dice pool. command acts as your effective attribute for any tests you make for the controlled device. attack, blackout, black hammer, and data bomb all have damage codes based on the rating of the program. armor is used to resist matrix damage, and so is shield. and so on and so forth.

Not that flawed an understanding, no worries:

You and the node run extended tests with linked results:

1. Firewall + Analyse vs. a threshold of (Stealth)
   
   • Hackers have stealth 6, TMs have stealth 8+.
   • Compare the number of rolled dice to 2*stealth. Once the node is ahead, the hacker is at risk.
   • Note that stealth has to be at max. rating, leading to 1, maybe two tests for all hackers.
   • You can finetune the chance of detection via the Analyse rating, but it will look dumb on the higher end.
2. Hacking + Exploit + boni vs. a threshold of (Firewall + Offset)
   
   • Hackers and TMs are about equal here, give or take a few dice.
   • Thresholds vary from 3-12, so we are looking at 1-3 needed tests.
   • Hard thresholds can be found around the hackers expected hits, or the hackers expected hits*2.
   • Choosing a different access type will change all odds of success.

The exploit mechanic is very complex (for SR). It is damn easy to mess it up with innocent decisions. Still, it could effectivly be replaced by a success test at any difficulty. If GM and group agree on a "correct" combination of hacker skill and required hits, there is a stable working point. If both sides do whatever is mechanically possible under RAW, the odds of hacking become impossible.

The easiest "matrix difficulty level everyone agrees on" is the RAW device rating table.

Just wanted to add: A starter TM probably has Resonance 5 and registered Stealth 5. For one Sprite 5 service, His stealth is already 10. Add Threading. Gets even worse with submersion.

IMHO, thats the point where TMs are insane. The rest is quite balanced. And no "Use Attribute" rule changes that.

It totally changes that. Instead of the TM rolling Skill + Complex Form + Threading + Sprite aid (which will likely go over double digits), the Tm is rolling their logic + skill, which probably won't go over 10 dice. That's a huge difference in success probability. And because hackers with logic don't lose their ability to hack well if they lose essence, they get to add things like cerebral boosters and PuSHeD. Sure, a TM can get those things, but then their ability to have high rating complex forms and sprites diminishes, in addition to being fairly useless. What's the point of having a high skill cap if you have barely any chance of getting near that cap?

^^^
Exactly! Tried explaining that in another thread and got argued with. The TM will still have "I ownz U alz!" passive ratings though.

because the threshold for the node to detect the TM is *still* stealth, the TM still has a better chance.

Could always change Sprite Assisted Action to "+Rating to DP". It will allow a TM to catch (and pass) a hacker in DP, while limiting them to not so insane, through the roof Progr... Complex Form ratings.

Custom Programs can exceed the Rating 6 Starting Limit... Just as customized Hacker hardware can do (ie System/Firewall/ Signal/Response)
They may not be able to go to 15, but they can definitely go above 6

You can also use a nexus in lieu of a fancy comlink for running high end programs, if you don't mind lugging a small decknexus around. (Obviously optimization works too)

Custom programs are rather more accessible with Unwired -- nexus programming and rushing cuts a 1 month interval to 1/4 month, and a programming suite expands the dice pool a bit. SR4A deteriorating dice pool on extended tests counteracts this a little...

Agreed on all of the above...

I've been thinking about some stuff, and was wondering what people thought about it. I imagine we are all aware that all the Matrix skills have normal and Resonance versions seperate. So, as a Technomancer, is it ever more efficient to learn the normal version of say Data Search instead of the Resonance version and simply have a custom Commlink with Rating 6 programs on it instead of threading it up everytime you want to look for something on the Matrix? I know this limits you in some ways (You can no longer Thread the program that high) but I have yet to run into a situation when I ever needed a Data Search that was that high.

i would say no, not really.

for one thing, info sortilege is pretty nice. for another thing, if you want to skimp on data search, the cheapest way to do that is by skimping on data search and use a sprite or agent, and thread the program as needed if you feel inclined to search for yourself.

also, iirc the electronics group is one of the few skill groups you really do routinely want (as a technomancer anyways - you want computer for sure, software is for threading, and if you're going to take a data search skill you may as well group it and get hardware for free. if you're a TM and you're not going to take data search as a TM skill, don't take it at all)

How high can you get a TMs base DP for Hacking?

Hacking skill (specialised: Exploit)
Aptitude (Hacking)
Codeslinger (Exploit)
Paragon (Black Hat)
7+2(spec)+2(Codeslinger)+2(Black Hat)+ Exploit 6 (Max rating Complex Form assuming Resonance 6) = 21 dice by my count. Without Threading.

Of course, you'd want to buff Threading to really own face. I'd want Home Ground and/or Analytical Mind for a couple extra (not sure which I'd take really).
The killer with TM is to shine, you almost want to balance out maxing your Exploit or Stealth vs. Threading. Threading is arguably more important since it is what really sets the TM apart.

- J.

Info Sortilage, as cool as it is, is redundant when you consider you can summon Sprites to do it for you. Even when selecting Echoes, you have to be super picky.

- J.

Info Savants, Networkers and Sourcerors only.

Any other stream and you'll just be forced to learn the Echo. I'd get Sift first if I were going down that route though.

"Only" and "any other" are a bit misleading here, since the majority of the published Resonance streams have access to the ability through their standard sprites; you make it sound like a minority option. That said, if you're willing to devote an Echo to gaining Info Sortilege, make it Sprite Link and get other useful outsourced abilities as well.

How about 'No more than 20% of Technomancers have access to Code Sprites' then?

Cyberadepts make up a minimum of 50% of all TM's. Of the other 7 streams only 3 can have Code sprites. All things being equal that's 20% of all TM's.

You may have a point about Sprite Link however.

Whoa, I drastically misremembered the number of streams there. My bad.


Yeah, I would never spend an Echo on an ability that a sprite can provide instead when Sprite Link is available.

Question- Can you still default on the same Hacker-related skills that you could in the SR4 base book (Computer, Cybercombat, Data Search, Hacking)? If so, then you can get the increased attribute (Logic) min/max from Surge II, cap out Logic at 7, and use Restricted Gear quality to start with Cerebral Booster 3, and begin the game with Logic 10. This means defaulting to 9 on all those skills, which is higher than you can ever get the skills purchased outright, even with specializations.

Then, if dice added to "Logic connected skills" (Aug p.110) or "Logic-linked skill tests" (Aug p.91) still count when you are defaulting like this, you can start the game with 18-21 dice (depending on distraction level for the Nanites) in 4 of the primary Hacker skills, without having had to actually pay for those skills. This is pretty good and doesn't even count things like bonuses from Hot Sim, or the ease with which they can get 5 IP's due to cyber and modifying their commlink.

You will actually have to buy Software, Hardware, and Electronic Warfare, unless you get Skillwires and chip them instead. Plenty of points left for it, though, even with buying a race, maxing edge, and maxing resources. Any other Logic -based skills either learned or chipped will be pretty high too, or can be defaulted to with decent results.

That seems pretty strong- better than a Hacker-adept (unless they are a magical adept who can spell lock Increase Logic, and is willing to sacrifice magic to the various cyberware needed, or can cast and lock one heck of an Analyze Device on his commlink).

Technos will still have Sprites, and the Assist Operation/Sustain Complex Form which make their threshold for the system spotting them when hacking very high, as well as tricks the hacker will never have due to the Sprite powers, submersion abilities, and trips to the Resonance realms.

The Hacker is throwing a heck of a lot of dice, all the time, and can develop enough to also be a physical threat, and one that can actually enter a facility to hack from the inside, which a Techno will simply not have the build/karma to do except from inside a Horseman or other personal mobility vehicle.

If I'm missing something, or something has changed, that makes this scenario impossible, let me know.

Actually I'd learn Info Sortilage first. Sift only starts really granting decent bonuses once you're a couple of grades into Submersion.

- J.

Going back a few, but i'm pretty sure thats an error. Decompiling is a Decompiling test.

In the errata



Its fixed in the SR4A as well.

One other majore benefit of TM's is they're programs are always runnings. Sure ergonomic helps hackers, but that's just one more thing they have to pay for and doesn't remove all the juggling.

A decently built TM will have 10 CF's which are all functioning all the time (though some of them it hardly matters). Considering "run program" is a complex action, this actually pans out a little more in the TM's favor. They're acting on the 1st IP.

Threading being part of the action of the actual program use, even when they don't have the CF in question, they're still not losing a pass to fire up the program.

Cracking tests cannot be defaulted. Also Logic is sadly (and illogically) irrelevant by RAW to Hacking.

Otherwise, yes a high Logic character does rock.

- J.

Yeah, having Stealth, Attack, Exploit, Scan, Black Hammer, Armor, Shield, Decrypt, Edit and Spoof all running at rating 5 or 6 all the time (not to mention your free Biofeedback Filter), with the option to instantly crank any of them up even higher as needed means you never really have to worry about having the right tool handy for any situation. Even if those don't do the job, you can thread something up out of nothing and use it on your very first action.

Ah, I'm working off a VERY old copy of SR4 (2005 Corrected Second Printing) so if they changed it to all the Cracking group not being defaultable instead of just Electronic Warfare, then my evil schemes don't work, and vanilla hackers are much weaker sauce.