Okay, in our game yesterday a couple of situations came up.

Situation #1
My players hit a little snag when their Troll Street Sam went down (due to a series of improbably bad rolls to the point where even after all 4 edge was spent by the PC, the troll still went down to pretty much almost dead and unconscious ... from a sniper round). The other PCs wanted to carry him off, however, the two other strong arms of the party (twin Ork street sams) were covering the party so the remaining 5 PCs (Face/Infiltrator STR 2; Hacker/Rigger STR 2; Shaman STR 2; Hacker/Infiltrator STR 2; and Face/Investigator STR 3) tried to carry him. Looking at the Troll street sam's sheet, his weight was listed at 350kg. However, that's when I noticed that his bone density augmentation 4, his dermal sheathing, and the rest of his strapped on gear would (and should) add to quite a bit of weight.

Question: What the heck would the combined carrying capacity of those 5 (averages at 2 STR) be and what the heck is the weight of the troll (sans gear assuming they cut it all off)?

The solution I used was that they could drag him off at a movement rate of 1 meter per turn. I'm not happy with it, and neither are my players.

Situation #2
The two hackers (for some really strange reason) decided that after downloading the paydata they were supposed to "retrieve" from the target company, that they'd ... browse for more. The data node they were in also had some details on some hanky panky by a corp big-wig (VP of an AA corp) that was being utilized by his competitor to pressure him into dropping his company's bid against the target company (not connected with the run at the time).

The two decided to blackmail the gent, by sending him copies via email ... again, for an unknown reason, they decided to do it directly from the team's hideout. I decided that the VP would hire a runner team to ... eliminate the info. So when he contacted his fixer, guess whom the fixer decided to use to trace the two hackers and ... silence them. Yup the rest of the team (actually, the 2 faces were the only ones who met with the client, the rest of the team almost always stays out of sight as backup).

Now this is not even close to linked to their current run (it was supposed to be the backdrop for another run a few game weeks down the road), so we ended the game as Mr. "Johnson" gave their offer, to give the PCs a chance to think about what they were going to do.

Question: Should I GM fiat it so that the two hackers didn't get the paydata?

Hell, no! This could be a lot of fun to play out. Let it run, and see what happens. If things go sour, you're early enough in the campaign that restarting won't be painful. Otherwise, a little bit of controlled PvP can be a lot of fun.

Early enough in the campaign? We've been playing this campaign for about a year now. Though admittedly, most of the characters are new since only the Face/Infiltrator is an original character, the rest having died along the way. Oh well, the two hackers really should pay the price for their actions I suppose.

There is a possible win-win outcome. The faces tell the hackers that they can get some money, if they're willing to drop the blackmail. If the hackers agree, the faces assure Mr. Johnson "The situation has been resolved, you won't hear from those people ever again." Further evidence can be fabricated as needed; but the key thing is making that a true statement - that the blackmailers won't bug him. When Mr. Johnson pays, the faces give the hackers a cut.

The hackers also get told, bluntly, that when a hit team is the cheaper and more reliable method of getting the desired result, people tend to pay for a hit team; and that's a limiting factor on the possible payoff from any other deals. Also that they'd be more impressive hackers if they took countermeasures against getting traced.

As for dragging the troll: not a bad ruling off the cuff. Lifting rules are on SR4 p. 130. All characters involved in moving the troll could make STR+BOD tests. I dunno if those rules have been tested against examples, eg if they yield results consistent with what weak people, ordinary people, athletes and Olympic weightlifters can actually do. A troll with gear might weigh comparable to a loaded coffin, and six pallbearers can usually move at a walk while carrying a coffin.

My apologies, but the point is that starting er won't kill your campaign.

No worries, I agree actually.

Shadowrun is a lethal game of no take backs. Explain to the players on the first run that characters will die and that that they have to live with that. Shadowrunning isn't the safest profession.

The hacker situation sounds like a lot of fun; it kind of reminds me of the movie Snatch in that its a little coincidence that makes the overall story more impressive (and your hackers kind of remind me of the 2 dumb pawn shop owners that robbed the bookie in said movie). There are quite a few ways ways the hackers can handle the situation, depending on the group of people they're running with. If I was one of the hackers I'd try to buy the team off with the promise of a favor down the line, which can be more valuable than the paycheck the VP is offering

There is also the added drama of if the face/sammie is loyal to the team or loyal to the . Sure you "can't trust anyone in the shadows", but if I'm a sammie I might think twice about capping a team member as it tends to attract the wrong kind of attention.

All and all, good situation. Sounds like a game I would love to play in.

Oh yes. Lots of fun. A previous game of mine we were hired to take a hit out....on ourselves. The Johnson didn't know who he was hiring (our public awareness wasn't high enough...yet) but did know who needed to be dead.

We took the job.

We did the job.

We got paid.

We laughed like hyenas about the solution: make-up + bums + video editing.

Is the shaman able to summon a spirit? Could the rigger use a drone? Couldn't the shaman use Stabilize spell and stim patches? A trauma patch followed by a stim patch?
Than runners are survivors, if they can't save him at least they can save themselves.

Than spend the moneys to change identity, seriously having a contract on your head is bad enough, being hired to do the job is a blessing, it gives you a warning and if pulled off right can cover your change of identity, but if discovered could make the things much worse.

Oh, we were asked to take out "the shadowrunner team known as the Stray Dogs" by the corp we'd been harassing for most of the campaign. They'd tried to kill us twice before (one of those ended in a game of racket ball...using grenades (having not realized that "impact" explosions were an option so the GM decided that they went off one initiative pass after shot/thrown)). Plus none of us had real SINs, so new identities were only a couple thousand creds away.

Most grenades are not impact detonated.

That's probably how Grenade Racketball started, TBH. It was back when Core had just come out, so whatever the guy had they weren't impact, but the book didn't indicate how long the timer was or if it was User Customizable.

Default grenade is 3~5 seconds depending on country made. The "Pineapple" used by the US military is a 5 second for example. I use one combat round from release, unless the person 'cooks' the grenade before throwing it. An easy way to do it is give the grenade 3IP for counting, let it be set from 2~10 passes (you do count the one it was thrown in), and go from there. Or on the pass it was thrown, the next round.

SR4 grenades can be used with a timer, set to go off on impact, or discharged by wireless link. Mini-grenades discharge on impact, unless you have an airburst link, which lets them explode in mid-air when they have reached the target.

The wireless link offers lots of booby trap potential, but also raises the potential of an enemy hacker blowing you up with your own grenades. I would imagine that, just like shadowrunners tend to use skinlinks with their firearms, their grenades will tend to have their wireless settings turned off.

Reminds me that one of my GM's favorite character concepts was a throwing adept who would bean a guy with a grenade (then the grenade goes off), effectively getting extra damage.

..... Sorry I'm not native to this lenguage; what would the adept do?

Throw the grenade, hit the guy in the head with it, then the have the grenade time to explode just after the impact.

"Bean" is an English (American?) slang term for "to hit."

The adept in question would be a Thrown Mastery adept. Tweaked to throw anything and do a lot of damage. So it throws his nice metal rock (grenade) and hits the target, causing a lot of damage. The grenade then explodes, causing more damage.

Actually have the grenade explode on impact, since that is an option.

True, but it sounds better and makes sense why there are two damages being inflicted if there's a slight delay.

Ok, I think I get it now.
My thanks.




It seems a good idea.




just set it to detonate 0,25 sec after the impact.

Regarding dragging the 350kg(771lb) Troll a meter every three seconds with five average Joes is actually fairly impressive, even without the added weight from the Trolls modifications and gear. The movement rates in Shadowrun are freaking broken if you really look at them and figure human/elf/ork walking rate is roughly the equivalent of 3.33 meters a second/10.9 feet per second/ 7.45mph. Sure, 1m per combat turn seems painfully slow by comparison, but given the variables it seems a touch fast to me.

Hell, have you tried dragging one of your buddys around when he's passed out from drinking too much alcohol? Dead weight is a bitch to drag around under any circumstances. If your players are really complaining, get five of them to drag you around with you being limp, see how easy that is. Now imagine adding about 265kg minimum, an extra two feet or so in height and take in consideration all the gear the players may be carrying, what the troll is carrying, the added stress of "Holy crap, they shot Fritz!", the terrain they're trying to drag the troll over, etc. etc. 1m is more than generous.

I read somewhere on these boards that "walking" is supposed to be jogging and "running" is a flat-out sprint. In other words, your walking rate is as fast as you can go without compromising your aim significantly.

Specifically to hit on the head. From Carnal Knowledge by Charles Hodgson:

The more you know, knowledge is power!

Urk, I think I need my sanity bird again. That kind of reply is a clear indicator of loose marbles.

*Squak* it's ok Jim, everything will be all right Jim, I'm here for you Jim.

Now there's an idea.

The shaman specializes in assault spells, doesn't have stabilize (or heal). Stim patches (hehehe, only the troll has them, and the rest have no idea where he keeps them), trauma patch was already used to stabilize him. I've no idea why they are bothering to drag his carcass along, other than out of friendship and team spirit I guess.

Good point on that.

heh, that may be true and it comes down to poor wording on the authors part, but even the running rate without the additional bump from a run test is nigh professional athlete flat out sprint speed. eh, i mean it rarely comes up in my games anyhow, but I was just commenting for the benefit of the poster to how the raw speed is listed. However thinking about walking rate as jogging makes a lot more sense to me in the scheme of things.

@BnF95 -- Thank you.

The troll deserves to die, if you have a slap patch on yourself you are better to tell to the team where you keep it (especialy if you're the only troll in the group), it can make the difference betwen life and death when dreck hits the fan; seriously, everyone should have at least one trauma patch and one stimpatch on themselves (and the rest of the team should know where).
The shaman deserves to die too. No matter the buildt, no matter the mindasset, the heal spell is a no brainer for anyone breathing, it should be the very first spell in any magician repertoire. Also blasting your way around might be fun but summon a spirit with elemental attack once and tell it to go to town on the target, it will net you much more total damage for your drain than a spell could; not to mention that shamanism is big on spirits.
Aside from this some of your team's problems seem to stem from teamwork, or more accurately the lack of teamwork, I would suggest to drive the point home.

Mind that the Heal spell takes minutes.

Which is why nearly all of my characters have First Aid

Yet it's still a life saver.

Which is limited to skill rating number of boxes. It also takes combat turns times the number of boxes attempted (and you want to attempt as many as possible, as once you give first aid you can't give it again--just like magic). It's not fast by any means (for my group, combat is over by the middle of the second turn--it's easier to finish shooting, then heal up).

First Aid can't be used to heal wounds that were partialy healed with magic; but magic can be used to heal wounds that were partialy healed with First Aid. So First Aid first, than Heal spell; High First Aid skill + rating 6 Medikit (even better if "possessed" by a Machine Sprite) followed by an Heal spell can drasticaly reduce the recovery time (so find a place out of sight in which you can low down for the time required and you're fine).
EDIT: Also Heal needs Drain x 2 combat turns for becoming permanent and has a Drain of (Damage Value) - 2 (so you can cast maximum force, without overcasting, that it doesn't change) and you can use hits on the spellcasting test to reduce the time by one combat turn; in the midle of a fight it's alot of time but after it can get back on your feet exceptionaly fast.

I had a similar situation back in SR3. I was playing a Troll Combat Mage and he wasn't a small guy in the least bit. We were on our way out of a corporate extraction when things went horribly wrong. The Troll ended up throwing something like a Force 8 Powerball at a HTR Helicopter that was shooting at the group while they were fleeing the compound. This promptly knocked him out on the front doorsteps, but did manage to take down the very unfriendly airtillery. Hellhounds unleashed & corporate security guards made things even more complicated. The group had been posing as a laundry crew of some sort IIRC, so they managed to have one of the big carts near the doors. I don't remember how we managed to get out of there alive, but we did. I'm sure it was the GM just being generous, which with ours at the time, that was a rare occasion.

My point being, my Troll wasn't a chromed out sam and he wasn't carrying a ton of gear and it was going to be impossible for my team to rescue me by a drag/carry maneuver. They got lucky and something nearby with wheels.

Troll runners should be required to carry folding stretchers on their backs.

that's why I liked the user-friendly carry rules in Earthdawn. Troll go down? No problem, subtract from your dex to add to your strength until you can carry him, take your strain and away you go!

Oh yes, you get back on your feet fast, but you can't really do anything in the middle of a fight.

I've been trying to figure out what that means, actually - what is that Damage Value referring to? The DV you are trying to heal? The DV you manage to heal after successes? The total damage the target has taken? The damage he has taken in that "set of wounds" since you can't try to heal a wound set more than once? An example or two would have been very helpful. Since you brougt it up and the thread topic is appropriate, I'm hijacking.

Sample question: Sam the Sam, Sampire, previously took 7P, and was magically healed by a different mage who actually knew the system, say, 2P, leaving him with five boxes of physical damage. He gets shot up again, as Sam the Sam is much better at looking cool and shooting things than at actually dodging. Sam the Sam has taken an additional 6P of damage, putting him at 11P total. Bad day for the Sampire!

Bubba the Love Troll, Master Mage, pulls Sam the Sam behind cover and casts Heal on him. Lets say for the sake of argument, Bubba has Magic 5, Spellcasting 6, and a R4 Power Focus, for a total of 15 dice. The Sampire is an adept with 2 points of cyberware, knocking Bubba's poll down to 13, an expected average of 4 successes, but they really need their Sam right now, so he's planning to burn an Edge to reroll failures, which should on average bring him up to 7 successes. Given that the Drain does not change based on force, and 7 is higher than his magic already, he casts Heal at Force 10 hoping to get lucky. Bubba ends up rolling 8 successes total.

First question: Does Sam the Sam heal 8 boxes or only 6 boxes? Does that answer change if the same mage had performed both Heal spells?

Second question: What is the Drain on this spell?
a) 4 (damage from the last set of wounds, minus 2)
b) 6 (damage healed, minus 2)
c) 8 (maximum attempted healing, ie force of the spell, minus 2)
d) 9 (Sam's current total physical wounds, minus 2)

Third question: Why can't Heal target the Stun damage track? Would it be reasonable to allow it to do so, or to allow a different spell to do so? Is there one that already does that I have overlooked?

Damage the character has before you heal.

D

"First question: Does Sam the Sam heal 8 boxes or only 6 boxes? Does that answer change if the same mage had performed both Heal spells?"
You are still limited by the Force of the Heal Spell, so Bubba can heal up to 10 boxes at Force 10. He only got 8 successes, so all 8 are used to heal with.

"Second question: What is the Drain on this spell?
a) 4 (damage from the last set of wounds, minus 2)
b) 6 (damage healed, minus 2)
c) 8 (maximum attempted healing, ie force of the spell, minus 2)
d) 9 (Sam's current total physical wounds, minus 2)"

C. In my opinion, the spell should have been based off of Force just like every other in the description, since it effectively is that way anyway since Force limits the successes of the Heal as normal.

"Third question: Why can't Heal target the Stun damage track? Would it be reasonable to allow it to do so, or to allow a different spell to do so? Is there one that already does that I have overlooked?"
I believe it is for balancing, as well as setting and lethality. Since most of the time Drain is Stun, it would be silly to allow you to Heal Drain with a spell. Plus, sitting down and resting for a while will get rid of it. You can always slap on a patch to ignore the mods for a little bit anyway.

Damage caused by Drain explicitly cannot be healed magically.