Here's an interesting thing someone pointed out to me.... By the book it seems that, regardless if you're an aspected, adept, or full mage, if you're Awakened and take the Dual Natured 'flaw' in YotC, you can Astrally Project.

Page 260 of the SR3 and the Dual Natured SURGE both seem to say just that.

Please tell me I'm missing some obvious syntax somewhere..... I hate to think that in my years of playing a Dual Natured Sorcerer, I've never once used such a powerful Canonical ability....

Sphynx

I noticed that when I was digging around about stuff on wether foci have mundane uses on the astral. I was also wondering if it could save me 3 BPs in your game (Hey, we are supposed to make our characters as powerful as possible, Yes?)

(It also says the same thing on P5 of Critters)

[edit="jeesus"] I missed that one too. I do think it is pretty-much wholly canonical, especially from the description in the SURGE section of YoTC[/edit]

I thought it said Astrally Perceive... hang on a sec...

'Dragons and other DUAL beings' it says. Above that it explains quite clearly that dual beings are not like characters, which can turn their perception on and off at will. Its true that technically speaking when someone is astrally perceiving they are considered dual natured, or dual beings, but its not intended to mean the same thing in those circumstances. In the context of the paragraph in question on p260, it refers to dual Beings, or creatures which are permanently dual natured.

Aspected Magicians all have the ability to perceive, not project, that's stated quite clearly on P160 of SR3. I think that supercedes anything which might be only implied elsewhere, like on p260 (the dragons and spirits chapter) of the rule book and under dual natured SURGE effects where it refers to the 'Awakened' insteal of being more specific. Something for the Errata I expect if someone wants to point it out to them.

EDIT: sorry, that sounded really snotty. It wasn't meant that way. I'm just in a hurry! END EDIT

But we are talking about characters with the dual natured SURGE flaw or Shapeshifter characters. In YotC it states explicitly that if a character is awakened and has that flaw then they can astrally project.

No, its says they can 'still' do it. Implying that if they couldn't before, they still can't! (really going now!)

Wether the SURGE flaw grants astral projection to any awakened character depends on wether you think the line "effectively becoming dual natured" from the SURGE flaw does mean becoming a dual being. the description of a dual being certainly matches that of someeone who is permenantly dual natured.

But dual nature does not automatically give you astral projection. It simply means that you can astrally percieve at will. Re-read the section on shapeshifters. Shapeshifters who are not mages can't project, so I don't see why any other awakened character who becomes dual-natured could - unless they already could. Spotlite is right.

Besides, isn't this "disadvantage" enough of a goodie already? Especially for adepts, who get the equivalent of a 2-Power Point ability, as a Flaw! Yeah, the disadvantage is that you can't turn it off, but as soon as you initiate once and take masking, you can make it look like you are not astrally perceiving, which reduces the main drawback to an occasional nuisance (sneaking past wards is still a pain, though).

Yeah, I based my decision on Shapeshifters, but to be perfectly honest, you can't use that as a way of saying it's non-canon. It does appear to be Canon that becoming Dual Natured and being Awakened allow for Projecting.

By the book, it doesn't say that Dual Natured gets Astral Perception even, it says they become Dual Natured only. You're having to base the Astral Perception primarily on what Dual Natured means (which is described on page 260) and the paragraph right after it explains that they Astrally Perceive, it says they can Astrally Project too if they have Awakened skills. The ONLY thing that would suggest otherwise is if you read the 'still' in spotlight's post as meaning 'still astrally project if you could before' rather than as 'still astrally project like any other awakened dual natured creature'. I think Spotlight is right, but that is still an Interpretation only, and not Canon. Looking for something a little more Canon before I mark this one down as a House Interpretation in our games.

Sphynx

Never mind all, Canon source answer is on page 264 where it shows that the quote on page 260, the usage of "magical skills" was in reference to the "magical skills" power.

Sphynx

Critters page 5:

Actually, it only implies that "some" ghouls may indeed be Full Mages. The word "Some" is in there.

Sphynx

It says that some have the Power Magical Skills and if you read the description of the power all it says is that creatures with that power are able to astrally project. It never states that the creature with the power must be able to use both sorcery and conjuring to be able to project.

The sentence on p. 5 of Critters has the following problems:

It says "magical skills" which can be interpreted in two ways:
a) This refers only to the critter power "Magical Skills"
b) This refers to magical skills in general

Option a) would disallow dual-natured (not just astrally perceiving) aspected magicians (SURGE-effect, ghouls, aspected drakes or shapeshifters) to project.

Option b) creates problem No. 2
Any dual-natured being is allowed to learn aura-reading (even Cyberzombies can learn that). Since aura-reading is a magical skill, this would lead to any dual-natured being being able to project ...

Sphynx, you found some cool wording. As a GM, I'll apply those words to Critters and other NPCs that I want to have Astrally Project. It won't happen for player characters.

I'm still waiting to hear Sphynx's rules-call on it. My character in Sphynx's on-line game has the dual natured flaw and magical skills but I also bought the astral projection ability (Sphynx is using a more versatile magic BP system). If I really do get this by default then I want to hear about it.

(In Sphynx's own words we're supposed to munchkin/powergame as much as we want/can...)

Lilt, you have to pay for projection despite being Dual Natured.

Cochise, look in the powers themselves, like Accident. It doesn't use capitalization in the power description. Ie: "A character hit with the accident power must make a test". Case sensitivity isn't a factor.

Sphynx

NP. I figured it should probably work like that anyway, but who am I to turn-down freebie BPs?

Cochise, I'm looking at the Accident power as written in the SR3, same book I read the Dual Being rules in.

Sphynx

And I'm looking at page 5 of Critters on dual beings and projection and the subsequent re-listing of all critter powers beginning on p. 7 of Critters ...

Actually, since the Magical Skills power talks about being able to Project without any mention of a Dual Natured requisite, I believe that the magical skills mentioned on page 260 (sorry, don't have Critters) must mean skills as in what players have (otherwise, why even mention it under Dual Natured?). So, that means it's back to being more canon than non-canon that if you're Dual Natured, and Aspected, you can Project.

Sphynx

This is just my interpetation.

My BBB has the word Creature in the Magical Skills description and it says most creatures follow a more shamanic style of magic, but not necessarily follow totems(at leat, not as humanity understands the concept). It also says "Creatures with magical skills can also use astral projection like a magician (p. 172). Similar to human and metahuman astral projectors."

This to me implies an alien vision of magic from an animal point of view. That makes me dis-allow this to any form of meta-humans, PC or NPC. I would also only allow the ability to creatures that specificially states in their power discription "Magical Skills" like in the Dragons section.

The whole description of these powers are in the Dragons and Spirits section, so in my mind I would totally ignore the fact that some where Meta-Human NPC's are called Critters, becasue in the Rigger book when talking about Meta-Human sigs it says critter signatures, that would include PC characters also. So if you were to allow NPCs the ability to Project because they are called a Critter in one book then PC's should be allowed also because they are called Critters in another.

Shapeshifters with "Magical Skills" I would allow to project, because in their description they are critter, more animal then human. But if taken as a character they would have to follow all the character rules.

Ghouls depend on what they were before they became ghouls, same with SURGE victims.

Again this is just my interpitation, ignore it as you please.