How fast do RL guns fire if the trigger is just held down? I'm just wondering about adding more rules for full-auto fire, saying that the current rules reflect extended, aimed, bursts rather than genuinely holding the trigger down constantly.
This idea was spawned from the 4+ actions per CT thread, and goes against the idea that characters with high initiative can somehow make their guns work faster.
Essentially: Put a maximum ROF per combat round on guns with FA modes. From a bit of snooping around about modern assault rifles, most of themn seem to sit at around 600-800RPM with a few reaching 1000+. that translates into about 30-40 or possibly 50 rounds per combat turn.
My idea is to assign a maximum ROF per CT number to guns (probably 40 for FA-capible guns) and say that:
a) no character, even mr 8 actions Night-One w/MBW-4 can shoot more bullets than that per CT
b) any character, even bob the 4+1d6 kidd. can spend a whole combat turn hosing an area with true full-auto fire, but they must use a variant of the suppressive fire rules where the number of bullets allocated to an area are divided by 4 and considered present in the area for the whole combat turn (and add another +2 or so modifier)
Is that horrendously broken? I'm know I'm trying to make sense of an abstract system, but I think it can be made to work...
Full Version: Maximum ROF
Well, since "most" Shadowrun firefights don't last much more than a minute or two, at that, you really don't need to worry about Joe Shit the Street Samurai going beyond the weapons cyclic rate, even with Wired Reflexes 3, move by Wire, or any of that jazz. I personally wouldn't sweat it too much.
As for suppressive fire, there is a difference in trained suppressive fire, and random hosing of a room, but that's what skill checks are for, and hence, the rules are already is the system, chummer.
But, that's my 2
.
As for suppressive fire, there is a difference in trained suppressive fire, and random hosing of a room, but that's what skill checks are for, and hence, the rules are already is the system, chummer.
But, that's my 2
.
Minute or two? Most of our firefights last two or three combat turns, tops!!!
That's 9 seconds chummer, quick'n'dirty!
That's 9 seconds chummer, quick'n'dirty!
This is more a matter of realism concerning the way that some characters can shoot 180 rounds in 9 seconds compared to how some can fire 30. If two drones are told to saturate a corridoor with LMG fire, one being controlled by a character with 3 actions and the other with 1, does the first drone really shoot bullets 3 times as many bullets as the second one?
I am sure there are other people out there for whom this is a niggling factor, Does anyone else have house rules for saturating fire? Any chance of a word from someone who's fired fully automatic weaponary?
I am sure there are other people out there for whom this is a niggling factor, Does anyone else have house rules for saturating fire? Any chance of a word from someone who's fired fully automatic weaponary?
Yes I tackled this subject before. The most logical thing I could come up with was ROF for a Combat Turn, divided up evenly per round, like the running rules. But there where to many issues and I judged it wasn't worth it. Feel free to take a shot (pun intended) at it, though.
Two. Not more than two.
~J, channelling gully dwarf.
~J, channelling gully dwarf.
| QUOTE (Backgammon) |
| Yes I tackled this subject before. The most logical thing I could come up with was ROF for a Combat Turn, divided up evenly per round, like the running rules. But there where to many issues and I judged it wasn't worth it. |
I agree, except on the issues.
Real-life SMGs, ARs, LMGs and MMGs generally have cyclic RoFs between 600rpm and 1000rpm, with SMGs and LMGs sometimes as high as 1200rpm, just like you said. That's between 3 and 6 actions of FA fire. Or, in more sensible terms, between 30 and 60 rounds per CT, divided evenly between the attacker's phases. That's how it's done in my games, and so far there've been no issues.
If a guy with actions in only 1 init pass attacks someone with 3 actions with a SMG on FA and fires the full amount, he will roll for the attacks separately in all the three init passes, at the point where he would act if he did have actions in that pass. Recoil is capped at +7, although in a game where all those moronic RC bonuses like Shock Pads and GV4s are allowed +10 is better.
All autofire is divided into bursts of 1/10th the FA rate, divided by the amount of actions the character firing has, or 3, whichever is higher. An init 5 guy with a 1200rpm gun fires in bursts of 6, 10 times in a row if none of the combatants have 11+ inits. An init 41 guy with a 600rpm gun fires 2 bursts of 3 in every init pass when going FA.
[Edit]And an init 5 guy with a 4000rpm minigun fires 10 bursts of 20 if no one has more than 1 action. Don't piss off people with miniguns.[/Edit]
| QUOTE (The Grifter) |
| Well, since "most" Shadowrun firefights don't last much more than a minute or two, at that, you really don't need to worry about Joe Shit the Street Samurai going beyond the weapons cyclic rate, even with Wired Reflexes 3, move by Wire, or any of that jazz. |
He goes over the cyclic rate if he fires too much in even one of his actions. You don't need to fire a weapon for a full minute to get to the cyclic rate of fire...
| QUOTE (Lilt) |
| Any chance of a word from someone who's fired fully automatic weaponary? |
Yay! I guess I'm the first here.
Perhaps it's better to cap the actual used modifier at +7 or +10 rather than the recoil itself. That way someone who fires 20 rounds with a Gas Vent IV and Shock Pads still only has a TN of 11 or 14 before other modifiers (20-5=15, brought down to highest TN mod used) while someone who fired 10 shots would only be getting 5 added either way.
~J
~J
I've put the cap in for recoil on purpose. A well supported LMG is far easier to be kept under control even when firing cyclically for a long time than an AR is even if the latter is only fired for ~10 times cyclically. Recoil Compensation should factor in the maximum recoil modifier. I forgot to mention that there's an additional 3 x Recoil Modifier to max recoil at Long and Extreme. Combined with the fact that it's damn near impossible to get RC over 5 in my games, it balances out quite well.
Fair enough.
~J
~J
Here. Been there for ages.
| QUOTE |
| I am sure there are other people out there for whom this is a niggling factor, Does anyone else have house rules for saturating fire? |
We use the rules for suppressing fire in the Cannon Companion and allow those so firing to continue in initiative passes in which they don't have an action. This gives everyone the same ROF effectively.
OK... That sounds good. I'm tempted to try AE's system next time I run a game.
Austere-I don't know about you, but I'm a former Marine. I was a gunner on an M1A1, and I can tell you, just because a guy is faster than me doesn't mean he can make the gun itself fire faster than me. Maybe with a semi-auto, but not a full automatic. I've fired more machineguns in my life than I've cared to. So, let the voice of experience speak here. The rules are already in the game. Use them. Adding more rules bogs down play, and it turns into "roll-playing", not role-playing. In essence, this equals a boring game to players who don't know alot about guns, because they have to wait while their gun nut GM has to cunsult various tables about cyclic rates, caliber, and other things. It is boring.
If the players themselves are all gun nuts, though, it works out fine.
~J
~J
*sigh*
Why am I reminded of "Bowling For Columbine"?
Why am I reminded of "Bowling For Columbine"?
Gun nuts do not gun violence make, especially the kinds like me who haven't fired a gun since they were too young to hit anything.
~J
~J
I've never viewed it as a faster person being able to fire more rounds from a gun than a slower person using the same gun. Instead I've always seen it as a faster person can fire more rounds accurately than a slower person using the same weapon. Is it a perfect explanation? Of course not, it's there for game balance and to put a numerical value to something that really doesn't lend itself to a numerical comparison.
Still if you're desperate for a numeric free example consider the following:
Your average Street Sam is facing down a pair of Gangers. Being a good little Sammy he's running around with wired up reflexes that make him faster than nature ever intended anything to be.
Nameless Meat Target #1 (The first ganger) has been living on the streets for the better part of his life. He's got reflexes honed by a good number streetside shootouts that are on par with a professional athlete.
Nameless Meat Target #2 (The second ganger) is a child of a middle class family who joined the gang to feel tough. He's led a relatively sheltered existence and while he's been in a shootout or two he's also a bit too fond of Soy Foods and is carrying some extra body mass that slows him down a bit.
For whatever reason these three have decided that they're going to shoot at each other using Generic SMG #1 which fires in FA mode only.
As combat starts the Sammy lines up a shot with Meat Target #2 and holds down the trigger kicking out a hail of lead that would do an Ingram proud. Not surprisingly the barrel starts to kick around like a toddler throwing a tantrum.
Noticing the barrel is beginning to pull up and right he immediately corrects for the unwanted movement and begins walking the spray of lead across the two gangers. Meat Target #2 drops in an unpleasant spray of innards and bodily fluid.
As he does so Meat Target #1 opens up, also firing on fully automatic. When he does the barrel's sudden jump knocks him off target for a moment. He corrects almost immediately but a number of rounds impact into the dilapidated front of the abandoned building behind the Sammy before he gets it back on target. Keeping his attention focused on his target there he sweeps the weapon across his target and catches our poor Sammy in the chest with a number of rounds.
As our Sammy gets hit the force of the rounds impacting with his bullet proof attire knocks him off balance and the still firing weapon begins to wander off its intended path. Again reacting with a speed that defies logic the Sammy corrects for the movement and only two or three rounds go awry before fire from the SMG turns Meat Target #1 into a statistic.
Hmm that didn't really explain much, let's try that short form. You could always look at it and say that when someone fires a weapon on fully automatic it always fires at it's maximum RoF for the three seconds that a combat round takes. So you've got a SMG that fires 800 Rounds per minute or roughly 40 bullets per combat round (Yeah the numbers are almost guaranteed to be off but for the sake of our example I'm calling for willing suspension of disbelief for simplicities sake).
So Ganger, Sammy and Combat Illiterate Exec all fire 40 rounds every 3 seconds.
Your Sammy with the godly reflexes notices and is able to compensate for target movement, recoil and situational modifies almost the nanosecond they happen. Thus out of the 40 rounds fired he manages to connect with 30 of them.
Your ganger is no slouch in the combat department either but he doesn't have the ware to bring him up to the level of our Sammy. As such while he also corrects for target movement, recoil and situational modifiers but it takes him a moment each time causing more rounds to go astray. In the end out of the 40 rounds fired only 20 of them hit.
Then you have your combat illiterate exec. He's slotted a wiz activesoft that tells him all there is to know about firing a SMG but he's horribly out of shape from living the soft life for so long. The chip tells him how to correct for target movement, recoil and situational modifiers but his meat body just can't keep up with the rate at which they're occurring. He lands a few good hits but most of the rounds end up doing nothing more than chewing up the scenery. Out of the 40 rounds he fired only 10 of them hit the target.
Now every one of our people there fired the same 40 rounds from the same weapon but the ones with better reflexes and reactions were able to land more rounds on target because they were able to react to situational changes faster than the slower individuals.
So I guess you could go out and invent maximum RoFs for all the weapons capable of FA fire and simply deduct that from the ammo capacity each time they use FA in a combat round but I'd still argue that only people with exceptional reflexes and solid skill would be able to make certain that a good percentage of those rounds hit.
Instead of thinking of it as the maximum number of rounds a weapon can fire think of it as the maximum number of rounds the character can fire with any chance of hitting.
Just a thought,
TBO
Still if you're desperate for a numeric free example consider the following:
Your average Street Sam is facing down a pair of Gangers. Being a good little Sammy he's running around with wired up reflexes that make him faster than nature ever intended anything to be.
Nameless Meat Target #1 (The first ganger) has been living on the streets for the better part of his life. He's got reflexes honed by a good number streetside shootouts that are on par with a professional athlete.
Nameless Meat Target #2 (The second ganger) is a child of a middle class family who joined the gang to feel tough. He's led a relatively sheltered existence and while he's been in a shootout or two he's also a bit too fond of Soy Foods and is carrying some extra body mass that slows him down a bit.
For whatever reason these three have decided that they're going to shoot at each other using Generic SMG #1 which fires in FA mode only.
As combat starts the Sammy lines up a shot with Meat Target #2 and holds down the trigger kicking out a hail of lead that would do an Ingram proud. Not surprisingly the barrel starts to kick around like a toddler throwing a tantrum.
Noticing the barrel is beginning to pull up and right he immediately corrects for the unwanted movement and begins walking the spray of lead across the two gangers. Meat Target #2 drops in an unpleasant spray of innards and bodily fluid.
As he does so Meat Target #1 opens up, also firing on fully automatic. When he does the barrel's sudden jump knocks him off target for a moment. He corrects almost immediately but a number of rounds impact into the dilapidated front of the abandoned building behind the Sammy before he gets it back on target. Keeping his attention focused on his target there he sweeps the weapon across his target and catches our poor Sammy in the chest with a number of rounds.
As our Sammy gets hit the force of the rounds impacting with his bullet proof attire knocks him off balance and the still firing weapon begins to wander off its intended path. Again reacting with a speed that defies logic the Sammy corrects for the movement and only two or three rounds go awry before fire from the SMG turns Meat Target #1 into a statistic.
Hmm that didn't really explain much, let's try that short form. You could always look at it and say that when someone fires a weapon on fully automatic it always fires at it's maximum RoF for the three seconds that a combat round takes. So you've got a SMG that fires 800 Rounds per minute or roughly 40 bullets per combat round (Yeah the numbers are almost guaranteed to be off but for the sake of our example I'm calling for willing suspension of disbelief for simplicities sake).
So Ganger, Sammy and Combat Illiterate Exec all fire 40 rounds every 3 seconds.
Your Sammy with the godly reflexes notices and is able to compensate for target movement, recoil and situational modifies almost the nanosecond they happen. Thus out of the 40 rounds fired he manages to connect with 30 of them.
Your ganger is no slouch in the combat department either but he doesn't have the ware to bring him up to the level of our Sammy. As such while he also corrects for target movement, recoil and situational modifiers but it takes him a moment each time causing more rounds to go astray. In the end out of the 40 rounds fired only 20 of them hit.
Then you have your combat illiterate exec. He's slotted a wiz activesoft that tells him all there is to know about firing a SMG but he's horribly out of shape from living the soft life for so long. The chip tells him how to correct for target movement, recoil and situational modifiers but his meat body just can't keep up with the rate at which they're occurring. He lands a few good hits but most of the rounds end up doing nothing more than chewing up the scenery. Out of the 40 rounds he fired only 10 of them hit the target.
Now every one of our people there fired the same 40 rounds from the same weapon but the ones with better reflexes and reactions were able to land more rounds on target because they were able to react to situational changes faster than the slower individuals.
So I guess you could go out and invent maximum RoFs for all the weapons capable of FA fire and simply deduct that from the ammo capacity each time they use FA in a combat round but I'd still argue that only people with exceptional reflexes and solid skill would be able to make certain that a good percentage of those rounds hit.
Instead of thinking of it as the maximum number of rounds a weapon can fire think of it as the maximum number of rounds the character can fire with any chance of hitting.
Just a thought,
TBO
| QUOTE (The Grifter) |
| Austere-I don't know about you, but I'm a former Marine. <snip> So, let the voice of experience speak here. |
Aus was in the military as well (of Finland), and has had plenty of experience of his own firing automatic weapons, from rifles to heavy machine guns (at least, that's all I've picked up on). As far as small arms are concerned, I'm sure he's had as much experience as you have.
I've never been in the military. Even so, I've probably had more experience firing automatic weapons than the vast majority of people who post on these forums, even those who have been in the military. What difference does any of that make? Not much when it comes to trying to make what you know work in a game system like Shadowrun's. At that point, it's all subjective.
| QUOTE |
| The rules are already in the game. Use them. Adding more rules bogs down play, and it turns into "roll-playing", not role-playing. In essence, this equals a boring game to players who don't know alot about guns, because they have to wait while their gun nut GM has to cunsult various tables about cyclic rates, caliber, and other things. It is boring. |
That's a nice observation and you certainly are entitled to your opinion, but I'm afraid that it is not absolutely true. More rules definitely can lead to cumbersome game, particularly if the players are inexperienced. But if everyone has their shit together, new rules, including these, can be used pretty seamlessly.
Regardless, the reason we're bringing this up is because the reality of ROF is not reflected in the rules of the game. You may be comfortable with rules the way they are. More power to you. Have fun. But other people are not, and they will change the rules to suit themselves. Aus's example is just one way of doing that. If you don't like it, don't use it. It's that simple.
| QUOTE |
| Why am I reminded of "Bowling For Columbine"? |
I don't know. Why am I reminded of "Gomer Pyle"?
| QUOTE (Raygun) |
| Aus was in the military as well (of Finland) [...] |
And, funnily enough, I was also in what passes as the "Marines" around here... Although that isn't saying much. Also, since I only served 9 months, and the Finnish Defense Forces are a bit stingy when it comes to letting privates practice shooting, someone who has served in the USMC has probably shot a lot more weapons than me. But I've certainly fired a few, in all kinds of modes of fire, and more times than I can remember.
| QUOTE (The Grifter) |
| Adding more rules bogs down play, and it turns into "roll-playing", not role-playing. In essence, this equals a boring game to players who don't know alot about guns, because they have to wait while their gun nut GM has to cunsult various tables about cyclic rates, caliber, and other things. It is boring. |
What Raygun said. Also, all the players have the neccessary data (calibers, ammo, ranges, penetration, modes and rate of fire) on the papers where their guns are, and I know 99% of that stuff by heart anyway. I've never had to consult a table concerning that stuff for more than 3 seconds in any of our games, and even that only happens maybe once every 20 CTs.
The Burning One:
I know someone without enhanced reflexes can fire more than 10 rounds in 3 seconds with a decent chance of hitting something. In fact, I know I can fire ~20-30, and that'd be more if the sergeants and lieutenants hadn't been of the opinion that going cyclic for 2 seconds or more is a waste of ammo -- personally I think anything that looks and feels good isn't a waste of ammo, at least not in a training situation.
So even though I have thought of it as the maximum number of rounds someone can fire in a CT with a chance of hitting, it doesn't change my view much. I think a really good shooter with a low-recoil weapon should be capable of firing cyclically with a decent chance of hitting things, regardless of the level of wiring in his body. Hence my house rules.
Lilt:
Glad to be of assistance. With the thousands of times you write house rules up on the forums, it feels nice when someone thinks they are ok.
| QUOTE (Raygun) |
| Why am I reminded of "Gomer Pyle"? |
Leonard Lawrence is my favorite movie character of all time!
Okay, I thought the topic here was on maximum rate of fire for weapons, not maximum accurate rate of fire. That's entirely different.
Raygun-
Raygun-
| QUOTE |
| I don't know. Why am I reminded of "Gomer Pyle"? |
Funny. Don't quit your day job.
| QUOTE |
| Aus was in the military as well (of Finland), and has had plenty of experience of his own firing automatic weapons, from rifles to heavy machine guns (at least, that's all I've picked up on). As far as small arms are concerned, I'm sure he's had as much experience as you have. |
9 months, vs. 4 years, not to mention a combat tour in Iraq? I don't think so. But, that's neither here nor there.
| QUOTE |
| Regardless, the reason we're bringing this up is because the reality of ROF is not reflected in the rules of the game. |
Maybe I didn't read it right, but I thought that's what the modifiers for recoil compensation were all about. Granted, it is based on the weapon itself, and increases the target number. But, to those with a higher Firearms skill (read:better trained), this number doesn't effect them much. Am I making sense here?
| QUOTE |
| don't know. Why am I reminded of "Gomer Pyle"? |
play nice guys.
or do it "the old navy way. first one to die, loses!"
(hot shots part deux
)
i read the rules like this:
a wired sam can spray, check target, re-aim and spray again in the time it takes some streetpunk to spray and check if target is realy down.
basicly the streetpunk isnt pushing the guns ROF but the sammie may as he have higher ractions. information travels faster, subjective time slows down, reactions are more accurate, that is the basis for wired reflexes, it does not affect your movementspeed!
tell me whatever you like about fps mods but the more reallistic ones (the ones that use barrelclimb) have shown me that the most effective fire on FA is long burst, check and long burst again, continous fire will have you killing birds in no time flat. and that is exactly what both the ganger and the sammie is doing, only that the sammie can do it faster
only time you do something diffrent is with the spray and pray method, fill the air with lead and hope someone walk into it. and that is best done with a lmg or bigger with a bipod or tripod deployed. and that is when you break out the cover fire rules of CC
a wired sam can spray, check target, re-aim and spray again in the time it takes some streetpunk to spray and check if target is realy down.
basicly the streetpunk isnt pushing the guns ROF but the sammie may as he have higher ractions. information travels faster, subjective time slows down, reactions are more accurate, that is the basis for wired reflexes, it does not affect your movementspeed!
tell me whatever you like about fps mods but the more reallistic ones (the ones that use barrelclimb) have shown me that the most effective fire on FA is long burst, check and long burst again, continous fire will have you killing birds in no time flat. and that is exactly what both the ganger and the sammie is doing, only that the sammie can do it faster
only time you do something diffrent is with the spray and pray method, fill the air with lead and hope someone walk into it. and that is best done with a lmg or bigger with a bipod or tripod deployed. and that is when you break out the cover fire rules of CC
Remember, nearly all FPSs underestimate the damage a few bullets can do.
~J
~J
true. and they over estimate the body's ability to deal with and heal that damage.
i've never been shot, but i imagine it'd be pretty hard to function after taking a few shots to the chest area.
they are games about heroes of (usually) epic abilities, but still...
i've never been shot, but i imagine it'd be pretty hard to function after taking a few shots to the chest area.
they are games about heroes of (usually) epic abilities, but still...
| QUOTE (The Grifter) |
| Okay, I thought the topic here was on maximum rate of fire for weapons, not maximum accurate rate of fire. That's entirely different. |
Yes, this topic seems to be on what people use as maximum rates of fire in a RPG. And I wasn't the one bringing up the maximum accurate rate of fire, I only replied to the issue when it was brought up, to say that I don't think the maximum vs maximum accurate argument matters when making rules for this.
| QUOTE |
| 9 months, vs. 4 years, not to mention a combat tour in Iraq? I don't think so. But, that's neither here nor there. |
| QUOTE (Austere Emancipator) |
| Also, since I only served 9 months, and the Finnish Defense Forces are a bit stingy when it comes to letting privates practice shooting, someone who has served in the USMC has probably shot a lot more weapons than me. |
| QUOTE | ||
Maybe I didn't read it right, but I thought that's what the modifiers for recoil compensation were all about. Granted, it is based on the weapon itself, and increases the target number. But, to those with a higher Firearms skill (read:better trained), this number doesn't effect them much. Am I making sense here? |
Recoil or Recoil Compensation nonwithstanding, the reality of RoF is not reflected in the rules of the game. Weapons can be fired effectively cyclically against point targets. They can be fired even more effectively at RoFs far greater than what the canon SR system allows for a non-enhanced human but below cyclical. This I do know. It simply makes sense to me to make rules to allow for this, especially when the rules don't end up being significantly more complex or slower than the canon ones.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Remember, nearly all FPSs underestimate the damage a few bullets can do. |
The only full computer game (ie not a mod) FPS that doesn't underestimate bullet damage that I can think of is Ghost Recon, and that game exaggerates bullet damage a lot. Single torso hits from assault rifles at ranges up to 150 meters kill instantly 99% of the time in that game. But that game exaggerates recoil a lot as well, making automatic fire nearly useless.
| QUOTE (hobgoblin) |
| [...] the most effective fire on FA is long burst, check and long burst again [...] only time you do something diffrent is with the spray and pray method, fill the air with lead and hope someone walk into it. |
There are, I believe, at least 3 people posting on this thread that have fired a long, continuous burst of cyclic fire at a point target without spraying and praying or filling the air with lead.
| QUOTE (The Grifter) |
| Funny. Don't quit your day job. |
Seeing as it pays for the guns I build and shoot, I don't think you'll have to worry too much about that.
| QUOTE |
| 9 months, vs. 4 years, not to mention a combat tour in Iraq? I don't think so. But, that's neither here nor there. |
Well, it seems that I have overestimated Aus's experience a bit, to which he has conceded. But you're absolutely right. It is pretty much irrelevant. I haven't spent any time in the military, nor have I ever been in combat. Still, I'd be more than happy to put my experience and skills using automatic firearms against yours any day of the week. Marine, Navy SEAL, or nacho salesman. It doesn't matter what you do for a living. You and I both know that that little switch setting isn't terribly useful anyway.
My problem was that you appeared to be assuming A) that Aus had no experience firing automatic weapons (the whole "step aside, Marine here" thing gets stale after about the tenth time you've heard it), B) that the rules of the game, as is, are fine for everyone, and C) that any gaming group interested in firearms enough to use rules such as these must contain psychotics. Obviously, I think you're jumping to a few conclusions there.
Of course, all of that is pretty off topic and not really worth getting into. At this point, I wish I'd have just kept my mouth shut. I fault my mood at the time and I must apologize for being rude.
All that aside, I would be interested in hearing more about your tour in Iraq. (E-mail via my profile would be great.)
| QUOTE |
| Maybe I didn't read it right, but I thought that's what the modifiers for recoil compensation were all about. Granted, it is based on the weapon itself, and increases the target number. But, to those with a higher Firearms skill (read:better trained), this number doesn't effect them much. Am I making sense here? |
What Aus said.
| QUOTE (Raygun) |
| Well, it seems that I have overestimated Aus's experience a bit [...] |
Easy mistake to make, I think I talk about it far too much. And the reason for that is that, on someone who doesn't want to be in the military, being drafted and then spending 9 months being insulted and commanded to do moronic things has a significant psychological impact. Nothing, of course, compared to having been in an actual firefight, but enough to make you want to talk about it.
Finnish Defense Forces, giving male strangers unlimited discussion topics since 1918!
Raygun-Apology accepted, and I offer mine to you as well. Sometimes my macho jarhead ego can act up, especially when it comes to my competence in weaponry or combat being doubted. So again, my bad, chummer. You seem like you know your drek, and it's nice to chat with someone I can make sense of. I didn't mean to imply that any gaming group that uses extra rules is a psychotic, I meant that firearm tables and rules should not take the place of the story, or get in the way of it. But then again, that's my opinion, and you and I both know what opinions are like. Play the game how you want, as long as you're having fun.
Aus-And just so you know, I'm not saying you're inexperienced just because you only served 9 months. In fact, my hat is off to you for having the balls to serve your country, whether it be in peacetime or at war. It's a very commendable service. Semper Fi.
Aus-And just so you know, I'm not saying you're inexperienced just because you only served 9 months. In fact, my hat is off to you for having the balls to serve your country, whether it be in peacetime or at war. It's a very commendable service. Semper Fi.
| QUOTE (The Grifter) |
| Raygun-Apology accepted, and I offer mine to you as well. |
No prob.
| QUOTE |
| In fact, my hat is off to you for having the balls to serve your country, whether it be in peacetime or at war. |
Judging by some of his comments, I'm pretty sure he was conscripted (as is the practice in Finland), so I don't think he had a lot of choice in the matter. Hats off regardless.
Wow, this is one really weird touching moment. Can you guys go back to talking about shooting stuff?
BTW, Aus, the Sammy of my group thanks you for the whole max recoil thing. That was a lot of bodies resulting from suppressive fire.
BTW, Aus, the Sammy of my group thanks you for the whole max recoil thing. That was a lot of bodies resulting from suppressive fire.
| QUOTE (Raygun) |
| Judging by some of his comments, I'm pretty sure he was conscripted (as is the practice in Finland), so I don't think he had a lot of choice in the matter. |
Well, to be fair, I had the choice of mopping floors for 13 months, being in jail for 6 months, or being in the military for something between 6 and 12 months. For most Finns, it's an easy decision.
| QUOTE (Diesel) |
| Can you guys go back to talking about shooting stuff? |
Fine by me.
| QUOTE |
| Aus, the Sammy of my group thanks you for the whole max recoil thing. That was a lot of bodies resulting from suppressive fire. |
If the result from capping recoil is that high-RoF weapons suddenly become a heck of a lot more powerful, then some tweaking is probably in order. If the problem is that everyone has lots of RC, just add a line to the rule that says "When firing Fully Automatic fire, the last 3 points of recoil (5-7 on a Rec1 weapon at Short/Med) cannot be compensated for." That at least makes FA slightly inaccurate with all weapons.
It wasn't overpowered, the guards were just outequipped and outmaneuvered. Today, they win, tomorrow, I use their tactics against them!
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.