QUOTE (Rad @ Feb 28 2009, 12:27 PM)
Despite what they will tell you in school, course credit and a diploma is not the sole indicator of the quality or depth of one's education.
I understand that it is possible to have a good education outside of a formal classroom setting, nor do I think that schools have a monopoly on valid knowledge. But I also believe that it is important, no,
vital, that anyone studying physics have an understanding of the mathematical background and how to apply it to current theory in order to actually understand the theory. Even if your mathematical acumen is high, it is not always easy to see how it applies to or illuminates the physical theory that you're studying. Though I understand that it isn't impossible, I have somewhat of a difficult time believing that anyone would have independently subjected themselves to the kind of mental rigors that you experience when you are guided along a very difficult academic path by people with expertise in the subject. But if you say that you have a deep understanding of how quantum mechanics works, I shall not dispute it.
QUOTE (Rad @ Feb 28 2009, 12:27 PM)
Instead, science is taught as a religion: It's laws inviolate gospel as preached by the prophets Einstein, Feynman, and Newton.
I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing, in general, although the words you use sure make it seem that way.
The purpose of a physics class is generally to understand how the theory works, not to talk about whether it is valid or not. If every class turned into a philosophical debate over the validity of the theory, people would learn very little about how the thing they're critiquing actually works. Even if the class is kept in focus, prefacing every theory with, "This may or may not be actually true" is of dubious value. The people who are pushing the bleeding edge of physics already understand that all theories are subject to invalidation, and in fact, every theoretical physicist tries their best to "break" these laws, because that's how you make high-profile papers. It is just that the best way to proceed is to treat a theory as valid and its assumptions as true; if its assumptions are not true, the theory will be invalidated at some point.
QUOTE (Rad @ Feb 28 2009, 12:27 PM)
it's easier to point out the fundamental contradictions physics is built on than to delve into quantum mechanics. Why bother arguing a complex mathematical theory when you can show it's entire foundation to be flawed?
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You say that our senses can be verified quite adequately, I challenge you to support that claim. Every observation a human being can make is made through their senses. We can use instruments, but in order to read those instruments we still must rely on our physical senses. We can ask another person to verify the results, but in order to even be sure that other person exists, we must rely on our senses.
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It is impossible to independently verify the data of our senses because we have no other way of perceiving the world outside our skulls. Without independent verification, there can be no empirical evidence.
All of these statements rely on the assumption that we have no way to verify that anything we perceive, and that we can make no definitive statements about anything we experience. While there are some convincing arguments to be made for this outlook, there are some problems with actually proceeding with such a philosophy.
If we go ahead with the idea that our experiences may not reflect reality in any particular way, then we have to talk about what exactly "reality" is. Because to most of us it means, "what is actually true". But things that are "actually true" are always defined to be so by the products of our own scrutiny which is, as you pointed out, dependent on our senses in the end. The word "reality" is inseparable from our experiences. If it isn't, what exactly does "reality" refer to? Is "reality" in such a scenario even a significant idea?
So, there are two assumptions that we could possibly go along with:
1) Our senses are completely unreliable and are either unrelated to "reality", or related to it in an irregular or random fashion, in which case "reality" is undiscoverable. The illusion cannot be broken, even in principle, and no statements about reality, whatever that word refers to, can be made. Under such a regime, empiricism becomes pointless; indeed, trying to understand reality by
any method becomes pointless. There is no method, in principle, that could reveal it.
2) Our senses do reflect reality, either perfectly, or imperfectly but in a predictable way. In such a scenario, reality is discoverable by repetitious experiment. Even if your senses do not reflect reality exactly, one can at least discover the relationship between your senses and reality since the relationship is consistent. One can therefore find a basis for believing and verifying the things we see, and perception no longer becomes an act of faith, but a tried, tested, and true method for discovering the world as long as one acknowledges that you should always question what you see and find ways to verify it.
This second way of thinking is exactly what scientists, and I, espouse. The first way seems to be your method.
So, I am curious: If there is no method for discovering reality, then do you think it is a worthwhile pursuit to discover a consistent method for describing consensual experience? Because if you do, then I would simply move to redefine "reality" as "consensual experience" and our entire disagreement dissolves in a cloud of irrelevant smoke.
As for your rigger example, it doesn't reflect your argument.
In this scenario it would have been possible for the rigger to discover reality empirically, using his own senses, if he just used different methods of investigation. He would have found different sensor readings by using a different analysis method, and would have had to reformulate his Safe/Unsafe Theory according to new information, because he would assume that he could, in fact, count on what his brain told him about the sensor readings.
By YOUR method, he could not assume that any information he got from any other sources besides his drone were valid anyway, since his senses may be unreliable. In fact, there would be no way, even in principle, that he could gain any better information about the situation. In fact, it is a mystery how he even knows that he is in the situation he thinks he is in. Are his teammates there or not? Is he jacked into his drone? Who knows! He may as well just guess anyway.
You say that "the problem is that science itself continually provides evidence that our senses are unreliable--undermining the very basis of it's own evaluation."
But it doesn't, at least, not according to your argument.
Science actually doesn't provide any evidence about anything at all, since any measurements we make may be totally invalid. And since our perceptions are unreliable, we have no way of investigating which measurements might be valid or invalid.
QUOTE (Rad @ Feb 28 2009, 12:27 PM)
It is not scientifically unsound to have faith in perceptions that have been independently verified by other people. It is scientifically unsound to test the accuracy of your hearing by asking someone "did you heat that" and then listening to their answer. You cannot independently verify a sense if you have to use it to detect the result, and since everything you perceive is interpreted by your brain, it is impossible to verify the reliability of your own mind.
Well then you just argued that is IS scientifically unsound to believe independent verification, since you can't be sure that what you saw, and what the other person said they saw, are the same thing, even if it appears to be so. What you're arguing for is an interpretation of reality in which discovering anything outside your own thoughts is, in principle, impossible. While it may not be possible to argue against such a position without assuming certain axioms which you could dispute, I can say with certainty that such a philosophy is not one that can put into practice. It leads to de facto abandonment of the philosophy for all practical purposes, since acceptance of consensual reality by participation is necessary to stay alive. Taking the philosophy seriously leads to paralysis by analysis and complete stagnation, or simply not believing that anything we do is "real", in which case the word "reality" loses potency completely.
QUOTE (Rad @ Feb 28 2009, 12:27 PM)
A scientist should not base his beliefs on what is more comforting.
I agree. I simply used the word because you used it to describe how you felt about your abyss of absent reality.
I don't find truth in comfort, I find comfort in truth.
QUOTE (Rad @ Feb 28 2009, 12:27 PM)
Oh, so we agree. Any speculation on the laws of physics must be backed up with empirical support. Since that is impossible, all theories regarding the laws of physics remain mere speculation.
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As a hardcore empiricist, you've put your faith in something unattainable by mortal man.
As I've said, proceeding with the assumption that empiricism is impossible leads to an incomprehensible view of reality. Or, at the very least, reality becomes a meaningless concept.
We end up formulating theories about how our perceptions work instead of "reality", which we can do since we experience the world as consistent and non-random, and presumably some of us would like to understand the rules that our perceptions are abiding by. But then we just call our perceptions "reality" because, lo-and-behold, the same rules seem to work for everyone who cares to investigate. Whatever reality originally referred to becomes a meaningless, amorphous concept that no one talks about, because no one is interested in what reality
actually is if it doesn't coincide with our experiences.
As for what I've put my "faith" in...
In actuality, I have simply defined reality as that which my own perceptions and other peoples perceptions have agreed upon. In that context I don't have to put faith in anything, I simply have to find which interpretations have the most convincing evidence that explain my (and everyone else's) perceptions.
Whatever reality you're talking about, I'm not interested in.
QUOTE (Rad @ Feb 28 2009, 12:27 PM)
I suppose you could call me a hardcore empiricist too, but I'm still waiting for evidence that our mind and senses can be verified. Since all of physics relies on that assumption...
But by your argument, such evidence could not possibly exist. Can you dream up some sort of evidence that would be capable of convincing you that doesn't rely on the same assumption? Because your ideas seem to exclude such a thing in principle.
QUOTE (Rad @ Feb 28 2009, 12:27 PM)
How many of the fundamental assumptions of physics have you actually tested? Have you dropped a small rock and a big rock and observed which one hit the ground first?
If not, you're as guilty as the Greeks, arguing an accepted theory without ever subjecting it to a reality check.
How many other theories have you tested? Have you measured the speed of light lately, or are you still taking that one on faith?
Actually we measured that one in lab today
According to you, though, even that wouldn't qualify as evidence. I had to read the oscilloscope with my eyes, after all.
As for doing every experiment myself... well, I must concede that I do believe most of the things I read in my physics texts on their own merit. But, since my experience of my perceptions has led me to the conclusion that everyone experiences the same laws of physics, it is a very reasonable proposition for me to take the word of the author, whom has years more experience and more expertise, and access to better investigative facilities than I do. My belief in their words is
not independent of evidence, then, and is not faith. My belief is dependent on the author's expertise, which is attested to the hundreds of schools staffed by other experts that have adopted his book as a guide. If I go by my previous assumption, that my perceptions are reflective of reality, then this is not problematic.
In any case, the idea that believing a textbook requires faith is not true in either of our viewpoints.
At least, not if I understand yours correctly.
Under your philosophy, an experiment that I recreate must be measured with my perceptions. Since I can't prove my perceptions aren't flawed, I can't prove that the experiment reflects reality. Hence, I'd be relying on faith whether I did the experiment myself or not.
With my philosophy, not running my own experiments does not constitute an act of faith for the reasons described above. I have many reasons to suppose that the results attested to are true, and probably of better quality than results that I might derive myself.
Anyway, to summarize:
If we assume that our perceptions don't necessarily reflect reality at all, as you say, then science, empiricism, and learning about reality in general are all fruitless endeavors. Our inability to investigate the reliability of our own perceptions renders empiricism, and everything else, invalid.
If we assume that our perceptions do reliably and consistently reflect what we call reality, then process of science is no longer rendered impossible, and there is no inherent contradiction in the process of empiricism.
Just out of curiosity, by the way... You say that independent verification is impossible because we can't show that our perceptions reflect reality. But what do you make of the fact that virtually everyone else perceives reality in the same way? Isn't that good evidence for the fact that our perceptions DO reflect reality? If the very basic processes of hearing, seeing, and touching were disconnected from reality in unpredictable ways on a regular basis, what reason would there be for people to agree on so much? Doesn't that then render empiricism to be a valid method that we can have a very high degree of confidence in?