It's been a while since I played SR4 (before any books came out), and I've had a recent hankering to get back in the game.

1. How are the new books (Street Magic, Arsenal, etc.)? Worth picking up?
2. I had an absurd amount of house rules in my game, especially related to character creation, overwhelming hacking rules, combat oddities, etc. (just looking at my house rules page makes me cringe!) New books/errata do anything to address those "big issues," or have the problems been exacerbated?
3. Anyone play online? What VTs (virtual tabletops) do Shadowrun players use most?

I played about a year ago with Street Magic and Runner's Havens, and it was fine. I know I am in the minority, but I liked 4th better than 3rd ed. My friends and I always joked when we played 3rd ed because the rules were so complex and hard to figure out that half the time we didn't know what we were doing. We had to focus more on the rules then on the scenery and story, which isn't right for any RPG. 4th ed has simplified it's rules a lot (Matrix and astral stuff still gives me a headache, but not the migranes that it did before.)

Street magic was good, and has a lot more traditions that you can ascribe to, like Shintoist, Bhuddist, and even a Judeo-Christian tradition. It has new spells to throw at enemies (or for the GM to throw at players) and, of course, the rules for initiation are expanded upon. Good stuff.

Runner havens is a book that essentially gives a lot of background about places to run. Hong Kong and Seattle are given very large sections of the book, and then there are a few smaller entries for other areas. It's a good book if you want to know what's happening in the SR universe, and it will help you get a really good 'feel' for how 2070 is in the Shadowrun world, but it isn't really necessary if your GM already has a grip on that stuff or likes to go 'Off reservation' and impart his own flair to Shadowrun.


On a side note, when I played, I don't think we had any major house rules and the game worked just fine. Although, we almost never did Matrix stuff. The GM assigned us an NPC hacker and just handwaved most of the matrix stuff. ("Okay, matrix dude goes into VR mode. You have no idea how long it will take him to retrieve the information. Just then 3 Dobermen drones bust in, roll for initiative," type stuff.)

While the books do add more information and some new ideas, I feel that the overall quality of the system writing has gone downhill as the game has progressed in the numbers of sourcebooks. You will note a pretty steady increase in munchkin fan service and general "WTF where they thinking?!?" wankery as new materials come out and the writing pool gets larger due to production needs.

The short fiction and a lot of the "how things work/the way of the world" bits before they get to the crunch, on the other hand, have really made some excellent steps forward and give players and GMs alike some great ideas on how to get a good "SR vibe" going in their games. I do have to give strong props for that.

I would have to say that SR4, at first, left me skeptical (having fully embraced SR3 just before FASA shut it's doors; I've been reading ALL the SR books since 1st ed.), but it's grown on me. Granted, some rulings don't quite mesh, and some things have been lost in the 'upgrade' from SR3, but that's the point. The system has to evolve or be left behind.

The new books are definitely worth picking up. They expand on the rules and options from the main book in a given area - Street Magic has new spells, adept powers, traditions, and threast; Arsenal has gear, guns, and advanced combat options such as martial arts. And so on. There has been a bit of power creep in the books, but not as bad as I was expecting.


It depends on what you consider "problems". Some loopholes have been closed, and some rules have been clarified or expounded upon. However, there are also potentially game-disrupting things out there, such as empathy software (which most GMs seem to nerf).


I like the play-by-post in Welcome to the Shadows. Not everyone's cup of tea. Someone asked about the various online options in this thread, where De Badd Ass broke it down pretty well.

I really dig 4th ed. I hadn't played anything since 2nd, and read 3rd ed over the course of the last couple of months. I disagree with the previous poster, I think the quality of the books has increased with time. I think Feral Cities was better written than Runner Havens and had more relevant information. I loved Unwired, it really gave alot more technical depth to the Wireless matrix and helped me know both how to run it more efficiently, and how to come up with things quickly. Runner's Companion was a bit hit and miss with me, but the qualities section with a couple of glaring exceptions was very helpful. I think Feral Cities is far and away my favorite world book and that's most recently done. I like the game, I like the responsiveness of the developers and I'm satisified with my purchases of it.

I would strongly suggest the Runners companion for a new player and gm. It has a good bit on surviving in the shadows in the wireless matrix and SINs. Also it would help if you had problems with character gen as they have alternate methods including the old priority system.

Overall the books have been pretty good, as Adam posted a while back Catalyst wanted to get teh core books out first, and they have done so. Now they can get back into developing the background of the SR world a bit more. My only complaint is that the stuff is not polished. One or two mispelled words I can accept but an incorrect title for an entire chapter is a bit sloppy (it happened in my copy of unwired).

1. Pretty Good. Whats worth picking up depends. RC and Unwired of course, Arsenal und Augmentation if you want PCs in those areas.2
2. We don't use much housrules, just one to limit the number of rolls you can do on an extended test.
3. We play with Skype and Pen and Paper. Works pretty good.

Take everything in the review above and apply the opposite stance. I am so happy with the expansions. Unwired filled in the missing info my brain needed for decking errr hacking.
As for the fiction, I could do without it. Its not horrible fiction, don't get me wrong. My time is limited and I need more meat and examples. Thankfully, Bad Moon Rising is on my plate now.

Now what I wouldn't give for more example critters. Today, not after or at Gencon.

Naw, you're not in the minority. It's just that the "I 3e" crowd is noisier.

I wouldn't want to run SR4 without Street Magic and Unwired, and maybe the Runner's Companion. Arsenal and Augmentation are great books, but not essential.

Everyone's taste for house rules varies. Each of the core books has numerous optional rules that you can use to tweak the game just-so. My group only uses six house rules:
1. Change Availability of Hacking programs to Rating*3, making maximum starting rating 4.
2. Everyone starts with Charisma+Intuition BPs worth of Contacts for free
3. While you're learning a new skill, you take no penalty for defaulting to it. That is, if you were learning Longarms, then while you're learning you would be able to roll Agility, rather than Agility-1, to hit
4. If you have a legitimate, non-criminal SIN, you can buy legal licenses for Restricted gear by paying 10% of the item's cost, or 100 nuyen (whichever is more).
5. Autosofts and simsense programs (e.g. skillsofts) aren't available as pirated programs but don't require SIN linkage
6. Reaction Enhancers stack with Wired Reflexes

Between the rules in their basic state, and the various optional rules and suggested tweaks, we really don't need any more. I'd recommend starting from a position of no house rules and seeing what you think needs fixing.

Interesting. I'd have said Street Magic and Arsenal. Don't get me wrong, Unwired covers a whole slew of things that were only barely described before, but being the hacker is almost "playing a game within the game and not the game itself." At best you'll have one character per game that'll use it, whereas with Arsenal all of your gunbunnies will be drooling over it.

Just my 2 creds.

You're on a board overwhelmingly filled with discussions of 4th edition, presumably populated by people who play it or have at least read the books. There isn't a whole lot here for someone who isn't a fan.

~J, who certainly only dropped in for nostalgia's sake

What? How? Why? who? "game within a game?"
As much as I resisted AR, it brings everyone to the digital battlefield. The games hackers are now mostly script kiddies. Personal skill is only a small part, good gear and great programs everyone can use. Your teams script kiddy should arm everyone's commlink and then everyone can be involved. A fast Sammy can click his attack icon instead of doing a second burst.
Its a layer placed over the physical world, just like magic. Its actually easier to get everyone involved in a Matrix run than to get everyone involved in Astral. Far Far easier.

The color of the Decker ( we called them Technomancers in my day... ) interacting with code on the fly is sadly gone but the benefit of this change is that everyone can be involved.

Your group has figured it out. Ours hasn't. Even based on that description on how to do things I'm not likely to get people to change.

It took us three years and the only way the transition happened then was when a brilliant new player joined us. His fresh new perspective, dedication and unsurpassed brilliance made the change possible. Thanks Genmo.

BlueMax
/credit
// where its due.

Is it still pretty common to ignore or hand-wave the Matrix still? Last I remember, there were these huge threads and documents dedicated to "fixing" the Matrix (Serbitar comes to mind--he still around?).


That sounds awesome. I would love to try a high-tech game like that.


Runners Companion has a karma character creation system, right? How does that stack up compared to the house rule systems floating around? I used some variation of Serbitar's, I think.

Anyway, I love the SR fiction so I might pick up some of the mentioned books for that alone. Though I am curious about the crunch: someone mentioned power creep was setting in? Is there anything in particular to worry about? I'm getting sick of D&D 4e for that reason alone.

Karma creation is good, although the default amount of 750 Karma definitely creates more powerful characters than the default amount of 400 build points. It creates more "balanced" characters, but only in the sense of being able to max out your specialty and get some other stuff. The biggest controversy about it is that you don't pay racial costs, per se. This is balanced out by higher Attributes costing more, instead of being a flat rate.

To give an example - with build points, a character spends 40 points to buy "troll", then 40 points on Strength (which starts out at a base rating of 5), raising it to a 9. A human who spends 40 points on Strength gets it at 5. In karma gen, the troll doesn't have to pay to be a troll. However, getting that Strength of 9 now costs 90 Karma, as opposed to the human, who gets his 5 Strength at 42 Karma. So the troll isn't really "free". If he wants to start out with soft-maxed Body and Strength, it will cost him 96 Karma more than it will cost the human to have soft-maxed Body and Strength.

You might ask "Well, what if someone just gets picks a metatype and doesn't max out their stats - if, say, they pick ork and get a Body of 4 and Strength of 3, which is plenty for their Celtic druid? Which is where the controversy comes in. Sure, they can do that, saving 36 points over the human, in exchange for some caps on mental Attributes. But orks came out ahead in build points, too, with a net savings of 20 build points over a human, and enjoyed flat Attribute costs on top of that.

Elves, on the other hand, suffer no lower Attribute caps, so they would seem to get a 15 Karma savings over a human, with no drawbacks. But in my mind, someone who doesn't take advantage of an elf's higher caps in Agility and Charisma at char-gen is shooting himself in the foot. Hell, elves were the only ones that came behind humans in build points, but people still took elves, because of their bonuses to certain stats. Let the point-scrimpers have their piddly 15 Karma savings - I would rather have a Charisma of 8, even if it costs 30 Karma more than a human with a Charisma of 6.


The worst offender is empathy software, which gives a bonus to social skills up to its rating (and it can go up to 6). Most people house rule or eliminate empathy software, and hopefully a future errata will nerf it (SR3 had a similar problem with the original mnemonic enhancer). Arsenal, Augmentation, and Street Magic have new toys, of course, but nothing really overpowering - a basic book sammie, adept, or mage could still hang with characters made with the new books, in my opinion. There is some power creep, but it is minimal.

Runner's Companion introduces karmagen, which, as I noted, makes more powerful characters. But just as with build points, you can adjust the amount of points to suit your campaign. It also has rules for playing everything from metavariants, to SURGElings, to infected (vampires, etc.), to shapeshifters, critters such as pixies, and even free spirits or AIs. For the most part, they do a decent job of balancing these character types. There is one huge glitch, though, which I think one of the developers already said was not intended. I discussed how karmagen's elimination of racial costs doesn't really break the game - well, there are two exceptions. Free spirits and AIs are both balanced, in large part, by having huge "racial" costs to play them. So when you use a system that eliminates racial costs, well... it's not pretty (Some of the pricier shapeshifters might fall into this category, too). Drakes and infected are all right, since being a drake or an infected is treated as a special Quality, rather than a racial cost.

The power creep is very low. Its not like we're getting new guns that do more damage: nearly every single gun does 5P damage. The high velocity guns just do more damage for burst fire (and the stock HV SMG is a 4P gun) which doesn't help penetrate armor better (modified damage vs. modified armor -> P or S?). Armor values aren't really going up, though there are more ways to get armor (not all of which stacks and most people won't have them--breaking 15 armor (human) or 20 armor (troll) is more an exercise in twinkery than The Way To Play). Spells aren't "better," if one does "more damage" then it's also going to have higher drain, thus making it less likely to be used in excess (Stun Bolt is still the clear winner power wise).

All it does it give us more options, rather than making characters more powerful (you'll still notice the lack of cyber or bioware that's main/only function is to increase Willpower).

4e D&D though? The distinct lack of options is what kills me there. Screw the power creep, the base material is so low powered that it doesn't matter what feat I take (lets see...5 hit points or +1 to my healing surge? Or an extra surge? Well...my issue seems to be hitting things so lets find +1 to hit...with anything....no, no no no, nope, doesn't exist). I simply won't play 4e D&D until the power creep sets in and the things I can get are actually useful (Look Ma! I can take a feat and instead of having two wizard abilities, I can have THREE! Too bad three of them are shit).

As the previous post was made while I was making mine, it did occur to me that there is one SURGE quality which is a little ridiculous: Radar Sense. You can see objects, walls, etc. out to 40 meters and through up to a combined barrier rating of 30 (that means the character can see through one wall that isn't blast bunker thick). Combined with some mapping software and a comlink everyone knows the layout of a building by having the creepy anti-magic gnome* walk around it.

*That's who has the radar sense in our game. The GM is still WTFing over it. But to be fair, it's not better than having a dedicated hacker who just breaks into the building's systems and steal blueprints.

4E Shadowrun I'm a convert, picked it up due to having lost some interest during 3rd edition. 4th edition has brought me and many players back to the table and were loving our SR again. Thats the bottom line for me, and like most other SR editions if the GM does his best to keep well read between games you can keep even the matrix flowing quick and easy. (cheat sheets help)

4E D&D ugh I've always been a rationalist and tried to support changes into new editions. Really like what they did with 3rd edition and on the fence with the whole 3.5 issue. But 4th edition hit our table once...players had fun but unanimously decided that it was no longer D&D and they wanted to play D&D not another new game. Several of them who have long time MMO experience also commented on its MMO feel. So we've recently come across Pathfinder beta and after everyone getting a look at it we've decided any future dnd style play with be with the Pathfinder rules.

Our group hasn't found the time to actually look up Pathfinder, I keep meaning to (as a player), but haven't yet. That good?

Hey, I don't have all the books, but I have one question:

Are Popup turrets back? And, if so, what book are they in? It doesn't seem right to play a vehicle rigger without an LMG on his van, but mounting it on a traditional turret is a good way to get caught by Lonestar.

Arsenal

Pathfinder is an open beta with a free download of all materials. I don't wanna sound like a Paizo rep or anything but its worth the download and a look at the forums there if you liked 3.? versions.

the power creep hasn't been too bad in any book except Unwired. A pre/post Unwired otaku will show a definite difference; and with some karma, the Unwired one will eat the BBB character for lunch. There are other, similar problems.

Fluff-wise, there's been a lot of negative reviews on the material. I did a review of Runner Havens that basically said Hong Kong shone through, but everything else was insipid. I also did Ghost Cartels, which also had its moments. Lest you think it's just me, Here is Khadim's review of Emergence. He actually rated the book as a "waste of money".

Personally, I would consider Emergence a fluff book, not a core book. And it underscores why I buy the core books, but tend to shy away from a lot of the fluff books - sometimes the SR metaplot is so mind-bendingly stupid that the best way to deal with it is by keeping it in the background as much as possible, and thinking about it as little as possible. This is hardly new to SR4, though.

I guess I'm on the opposite side of that particular fence in that I loved Emergence. Fluff books rule and since our group got in just about a year ago, the material was excellent catch-up for me on certain aspects of modern life in the sixth world (we ditched SR when 3e came out just 'cause we didn't want to buy all new books, maybe you shoulda thought of that WotC, you bastards).

As a former 1/2e SR player, I find the current system to be more than adequate, though far from perfection. It is much more clean, fluid and easy to learn basics-wise than previous versions. Though the more complexity you add (from books other than BBB and HRs) the more the minor system errors become major system errors.

One of the biggest praises of the new system (which I, in general, like better than SR3 personally) is the streamlining of Matrix rules. It is still too time consuming for some people, but honestly I think that the new Matrix rules are very usable.




I don't know about house rules, but I can tell you that karmagen has its ups and downs.
On the up side, I've found that it lessens min-maxing and creates more rounded characters with more skills. Because low-level skills are very cheap, and you can't trade skill rating points on a 1-to-1 basis (lowering a skill from 2 to 1 will not let you raise another from 4 to 5), people tend to have characters with more skills at lower ratings. At least, this is true as long as you start with enough karma points to get good ratings in a few core skills -- if not, then players tend to omit skills for the sake of scrimping for that 5th point in Automatics or whatever.

On the other hand, it creates much more powerful characters in general. Here is the thing... they base it on the idea that 1 BP is worth 2 karma. But attribute costs in karma are actually cheaper than BP until you get a stat to 5+ (Raising from 1 to 4 costs 27 Karma vs 30 BP, from 1-5 costs 42 Karma and 40 BP). In a "standard" 750 point build, they let you spend up to half on stats. There is no cost, per se, for being a metahuman, but their stats will cost more to raise from the racial minimums by the same amount, so there is built-in cost. They can spend 2x racial BP cost in extra karma for stats because of that. With the 1/2 karma limit, though, a human character can raise nearly every attribute to 5 (including Edge!), assuming you have no special attributes. Clearly, soft-maxing every stat is a bit overpowered.

Because karmagen can be so powerful, most people start out with 600 or 650 karma instead. I still think that's a high amount for stats, and it also starts to limit the skill spread, which is the attraction of karmagen in the first place. My personal solution is to lower the karma slightly to 720, but only allow 1/3rd of the total to be used for attributes instead (metahumans still get extra). This brings attributes pretty much in-line with the BP method, while still allowing a big chunk for skills so that players will feel free to round out their characters a lot more and buy some knowledge skills (which now have to be paid for).

All-in-all it is a good system, but unless you plan on building a very high-powered campaign, don't do it quite by the book.

The example Chars from the BBB wolud be 500 -550 Karma Chars (except for TM and Mage which would be 600 Karma Chars)
The Karma sys has its ups and downs (just like Gadzilla said)
You should try it out for yourself.I prefer the Karma Gen (using between 650 and 750 Karma) It gives me a better Feel for the Chars

HokaHey
Medicineman

I use OpenRPG. As a matter of fact, I was looking at OpenRPG's SR4 dieroller, and happened to notice that your name is all over it! I was going to modify your dieroller so that it would handle formulas. Turns out that the code I need to modify was in chatwnd.py. I ended up not modifying your code.

I am also developing an SR4 character node handler. I would appreciate it if you would try my charcter handler, and give me some feedback.

BTW: Thank you for writing the SR4 dieroller. Without it, SR4 would really be the orphan step-child on OpenRPG.


DBA aka PhillyG on OpenRPG

I played SR1 years ago as a young pup and quit around the time SR2 was released. I'd peek in on Shadowrun from time to time but I was frustrated to see an already a tricky combat rule set made even more difficult in SR3. But SR4 got me back into the game. It was easy to pick up and easy to teach which made it ideal for my friends and myself who are casual gamers.

All of the new core rule books are worth picking up but you don't need to get them all at once. I played for a year using only the BBB and Street Magic. However, Augementation, Arsenal, Unwired and Runner's Companion all offer terrific cyber, programs and gear picks along with alternate rule options. What makes these books a little different from what has come before is that they not only stat out spells/gear/whatever, they offer thematically appropriate rules and Qualities. For example, Augmentation has all the cyber- and bioware not listed in the BBB but it also has rules dealing with doctors and medicine along with Positive and Negative Qualities related to body enhancement. Arsenal has new gear plus fighting styles. Street Magic gives pointers on creating an effective mage. You get the idea.

I haven't houseruled anything. Hacking is actually really, really simple compared to previous editions which is a major plus for SR4.

*evil grin* Yeah, I wrote the dieroller and initiative tool (which has since been replaced, I think?) a while ago. The dieroller was OK, but the init tool--*shudders*--I can write some pretty bad code, but that was just oogly. Somehow it sorta worked in the end. Fortunately, I think my Hacking/Software skills have improved a point or two since then.

I asked about VTs because I moved from OpenRPG+ to MapTool, which is absolutely phenomenal (shameless publicity). They're pretty D&D focused, but I'm brainstorming some ways to bring SR4 to them: first, I want to make a Food Fight campaign file and go from there.

I'll check out your node handler though. I remember making a small SR4 character sheet with OpenRPG+, but it didn't have any auto-filling features.

I'm with bluemax on this one, and not just cos he plays in my game and is a very valuable player (and GM, from what I have seen from sitting in on his game).

SR4 moves quickly - much more quickly for me than SR2 or 3, the former of which eventually became second nature but not until years after picking it up. I've only played SR4 for a year or so now, and the rules just make sense once you begin to grasp them. Again agreeing with bluemax, I LUVZ AR hacking. It's so incredibly awesome and easy to run as a GM, and I'm terribly tempted to play a combat hacker the next time I ever get a chance to be a player. There's a lot of extraneous text around AR / VR hacking in SR4 that can mostly be ignored, but if you figure out where the important portions of the rules are it becomes very easy to grasp. Far far far better than hacking/decking in old versions.

I'm still struggling with Astral, but I never liked the whole concept every since SR1 so...yeah.

Overall, I'm a convert (house rules completely butchering IP notwithstanding).

I'm not getting the SR4 Matrix luvvin here. My current group has all but written it out. Add to that the "pizza problem" I saw in so many Missions games (the decker does his this thing, everyone else goes out for pizza), I just can't see any advantage to not NPCing the decker roles.

Having not played the missions I cannot comment. When I play a decker (we play in 2050) in Counterveils game, most of the matrix actions happen in real time. I have to choose to hack over shoot, drive, hit up contacts. Its threaded into the scene.
On the flip side, we don't do anything with a serious depth of nodes in that game. I can see how that would bog things down.

Most of the time I run hacking, it happens in parallel with the rest of the physical intrusion. The hacker makes actions in the same IPs as the other characters , search , sneak and fight. It keeps pressure on the scene. However, it probably sucks to be the troll who gets stuck carrying the decking in a sling. I have encouraged everyone to go in with the Hacker when its not pressing. Honestly, if he can get root and bring you in, you can click on "Attack Master 5000" just as well as he can.

If Decking can be just part of the environment, like astral perception (just like) then you can blend it in. I believe that it can be.

Yep-they took 3.5 and made a 3.75 that was actually an improvement. Better skill system, better handling of alternative attacks such as grapple.

Despite the fact that there are 10 matrix rounds in one meat combat round?

Where is this in 4th ed? back in first, heck yes but today



Assuming RL == Real Life.

No offense, but then you're not really "doing" the decking. I mean, combat decking is really not possible: any opposition with half a brain will have their wireless turned off, and the Extended tests needed to accomplish just about everything in the matrix means real-time hack attacks aren't going to be viable.

There's also the environment - security cameras, doors, drones, auto-guns, etc. that may be part and parcel of the immediate area.

As BlueMax said, I don't run a super-detailed matrix, just like I don't run a super-detailed combat map. I prefer to keep things fast and furious with a little bit of detail (like where is cover, how far away enemies are, and the like). It makes it easy to integrate everyone into the action, whether that's gunslinging, spellslinging, or codeslinging - or script-kiddying, if you prefer.

This all depends on what you plan to accomplish. Again, extend the parallel.

If you want to take out a spirit, thats easy to do in the same timespace as combat. If you want to do a metaplanar quest, that is what you call a pizza session.

I think there are other threads to debate the "ease" or "difficulty" of hacking on the fly. What I will say is that the game world presses an idea I don't personally dig, the proliferation of wireless. So while some data and nodes are not on wifi, supposedly much of the world leaves itself exposed. That is not to say they do not wear pants.

Almost... "warded" off?

All the environmental obstacles you mention should not be wireless, if the opposition has any brains whatsoever. Again, no offense intended, but there's no advantages to having anything but drones run on wireless. In fact, with wi-fi inhibiting paint, it's to their advantage to have everything hardwired in.

I like things fast and furious as well, which is why I play Savage Worlds. But that's another topic. The problem I have is that I can't run a fast and furious mixed-combat scene involving the matrix, using the rules as written. And since my latest game started as a Missions campaign, I can't really use house rules.

Get real! There is one big advantage to wireless. Installation costs much less.
Actually, there are other advantages. Installation takes less time.
Repairs and upgrades are easier to make.

To the shadowrunner and the security guy, maybe, the world revolves around security.
To the lawyer, the world revolves around law suits.
To the politician, the world revolves around elections.

To the user, the world revolves around use. The first purpose of a door is not to keep people out; it is to let people in. The purpose of a computer system is not to deny access, it is to facilitate access. The purpose of wireless is not to make hacking easier, it is to make normal use easier.

That's the main reason for wireless. Otherwise, you can go back to the world of SR3 - which would be like going back to 1979.

If you're smart about your security design and tricks, you can design a wireless (yes, wireless) system that is tough to crack. Also, there are plenty of wireless bonuses. In the BBB, there's the AR bonus. With Unwired Tacsofts, there's definately an incentive to use wireless, especially for security team use. It gives them a decent edge over shadowrunners, and also allows hackers to try and use their skills.

Cain,
We aren't going to get anywhere while we have a paradigm difference. For three years, I tried to do things the old way where little to anything was on wireless. The system does fall apart if you run it on the older paradigm all the time, I will give you that.
The biggest mistake with relation to Shadowrun the past 10 years has been attempts at realism or rationalization. This mistake has been made by both designers and players. With regard to Encryption ( my job ), Data Search being able to find anything all to easily (who needs etiquette?) and the "Wireless World", I fell into this pit hard. One could say I jumped to contusions. One of those contusions rattled my head and I decided to just try it their way, and it worked much better. The results are not realistic (nor are they too secure) but, I honestly don't give a frag as long as its colorful and fun.

BlueMax
/The realism trap is as old as gaming true
// Gun bunnies are usually the first to fall
/// don't even get me started on how the rest of the world suddenly redeveloped into its exact 1999 clone

Things are being blown out of proportion here. Most sites, unless they are of very large importance, will find it cost ineffective and inconvenient to disconnect from the Matrix and hardwire everything. It takes too much work to get a system like that up and running, and as such, there will always be ways around it.

A good runner team follows the Boy Scout model, obviously: Be Prepared. Hackers, you should be pre-hackers. If you've got time before a run, you've got time to pre-hack. Find the node and get to work probing. Unless you're hitting a government or major corp site, the security rating shouldn't be that high, and you've got hotsim VR and cyber / bio. It shouldn't take you long (ie, too many extended tests [which are an hour interval, not that bad]) to get yourself to at least security privileges and make yourself a backdoor back in. This can be done while your team-mates talk to contacts or astrally give the place a once over.

Is the site closed off of the 'rix? Got time? Road trip. There are ways to get into building and get yourself into the network. Office buildings have all sorts of needs, from trash disposal to vending machine stocking. Get a buddy, get into the office, and while your buddy is restocking Fizzy Pop, get yourself some privileges - or steal them! Closed off warehouse or laboratory? Betcha that while your friend argues with security you can snag his ID from his commlink.

Got a run that needs to be done now? Hacking on the fly isn't as graceful as probing is, but the extended test is measured in minutes, not hours and you can probably snag yourself user rights. From there, find yourself somewhere quiet and dig a little harder - and heck, if the fur's already flying, no one's going to really care if you set the node on fire hardcasing your way to admin status!

Even if the node you want is offline, the building node around it probably isn't. Pre-hack and get yourself to security privileges and you can probably cakewalk your way through the building without anyone's know-how. Once at the locked off area, there are other ways inside node - they don't exist without a physical presence, right? Have your team lockpick, smash and bash, whatever, to get inside.

Physical security and their cyber? Probably not something you're honestly going to want to worry about. It's far simpler to have security privileges on the building node and give your buddies tactical reads or train automated security against the meat security. Being able to shut off commlinks or spam them is great but really time-ineffective. Heck, the people you're probably running up against won't be Ghosts or Red Samurai or even Lone Star ERTs; you're talking security that would sooner call for the police then deal with you.

In summation, these two threads have really helped me figure out hacking:

Ryu's Introduction Into the Matrix Rules
Three Data Monty (more for the hacker pre-work in the factory and how to integrate it with other legwork)

Once again echoing what many have already said (because I'm slow on the postingz), available security is going to come down to two things: Cost and Usability. I've been working in computer security on both sides of the fence both for datacenter-only and userland installations and *every* system has a flaw(s). This is because every security policy is going to be based on risk assessment, whereby a "crack" team of security professionals will analyze the computing infrastructure and give the exec staff a big list of crap that can possibly be broken - whether by malicious hackers, random acts of god, or otherwise. In essence, they will be attempting to preserve the CIA (Confidentiality, Integrity, and Availability) of their operations and associated data.

Said exec staff will now be looking at this big list of crap along with the mitigation cost and attempt to address the highest-rated problem areas. Almost predictably, their primary concern will be Availability. If shit isn't Available, they will stand to lose a lot in lost productivity for typically expensive human agents. Oh hey, there goes 80% of the Operations budget for the year! The last 20% (often less) then gets allocated to very expensive security endeavors, which hardly is enough to cover the cost of total mitigation.

Getting down to the more nitty gritty, let's assume that your security assessment professionals are any good at their job. They'll do what they can with the 20% they've got left over and strive for secure design via partitioning. They'll drop their normal users into a low-security network that has all kinds of wireless written into it to increase both Availability and Usability. Then they'll put up multiple security nodes that must be bypassed in order to get access to the meat of the data. But here's the kicker: That data has to be accessed in order to be useful! Just sitting there all pretty and secure doesn't do anyone any good at all. The software systems built to access said data are often rife with easily-exploited bugs, not to mention insecure protocol and authentication management.

Even the security people themselves will go to great lengths to ensure that their own daily activities are not hampered by resident security protocol. I've seen it all: backdoors, special accounts, hidden networks...all in the name of Making Life Easier™. Compromise is the name of the game, and everyone plays it, and that's where the weaknesses can be cracked.

Yeah, the Shadowrun 4 system doesn't mirror reality particularly well (I mean c'mon, cracking encryption that easily?), but when you throw in some flavor text and just roll the dice while assuming that somewhere along the line *someone* has made a mistake in the security design, it just works out nicely. I also tend to give my player(s) the benefit of the doubt when they're searching for an in. Random hackers that have managed to physically infiltrate your building is not a usual and daily occurrence so security onsite normally leaves a lot to be desired - which makes it fun for runners

I think you're missing the point. It's not the idea of the wireless matrix that I mind so much, it's the implementation.

Let's face it, there's no system that cannot be hacked within a few minutes by a dedicated decker. Which is simultaneously too fast for believability, and too slow to join in with the rest of the team. To maintain believability (which is necessary most of the time to have fun) we'd have to make a lot of things wired.

Can you fix this? Yes, but not without going into a lot of house rules. And when you start applying a lot of house rules, suddenly we're not discussing the same game anymore.

I'll agree with you on this, as well as reinforcing that I think the encryption rules are silly - or rather the speed at which encryption is defeated is silly. Technically and design-wise I think we're on the same page - cool



I decided to just opt out of trying to fix it and just buy into the paradigm and assume that software is fast enough to do most of the work for the hacker - which is why I guess most hackers are just script kiddies in the 2070s (or the 2050s in my game). It really lends itself to a "Ghost in the Shell"-feel speed hacking which I actually find fun. While I agree that believability is necessary to having fun, there are some things I'm more than happy to give over to the realm of fantasy / near-future-super-technology / martial arts movies with people leaping about like monkeys.

We all have our thresholds I guess, and allowing the game to dictate timing on hacking and encryption doesn't offend my real world sensibilities and knowledge enough to counterbalance the fun I (and I assume my players) have with the hacking rules as they are. To each their own

I think "believability" is a further extension of the parallels to magic. Does anyone on this board believe they can will spirits into manifesting? (if so, please consult your nearest psych ward...)

Its a different world. If you like it crackable play SR4.
Penny Arcade understands exactly how you feel. And so do I, I just let it go