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ting-bu-dong
Hi,
I did a search on "tibet" and "china" but the results did not help me out, so here it goes:

As far as I am informed, China collapsed (like most other states that originally consisted of several nations like Germany or the US) into many smaller provinces and Tibet achieved indepence. Is this correct? If so, in what sourcebooks can I find information on this (I only found information on Tai Shan in Awakened Lands but that is not exactly in the area).

Concerning my campaign idea, it will (through some twists) involve a Chinese warlord convinced that Tibet should be part of Great China again and starts a military coup to annex it into a neighbouring province. Is there canon information about Tibet's infrastructure, economy, politics, society and so on? Any suggestions and ideas enriching this campaign concept is welcome, of course.

tbd
toturi
Hello, Mr Do-not-understand-what-is-spoken.

The Tibet in SR is, to best of my knowledge, is isolationist and has enough mojo/firepower to keep out unwanted visitors.

Since Inazo Aneki is/was Mr Big in Renraku and he was warned not to play fast and loose with the Tibetians by big D (remember, a AAA can just about push around any country on Earth), I think they won't have any problems stopping any invasion unless it is backed by Lung.

Even if Lung wanted to invade, I think he may find Tibet to be a little hard to swallow because Renraku may just interfere with Lung's plans to protect their bossman.
Austere Emancipator
Here's a map of SR Asia and this page says you can find mentions in Corporate Download and Portfolio of a Dragon.
Ancient History
QUOTE
As far as I am informed, China collapsed (like most other states that originally consisted of several nations like Germany or the US) into many smaller provinces and Tibet achieved indepence. Is this correct? If so, in what sourcebooks can I find information on this (I only found information on Tai Shan in Awakened Lands but that is not exactly in the area).


Shortly after the Awakening, Tibet was sealed off by a magical ward or barrier. Inanzo Aneki entered using an item that DUnkelzahn bequesed him in his Will. That's about all you'll find for Tibet (although see Brainscan for the cool new adept power)

China broke into five or so warring states, with Hong Kong gainign independance. First mentioned in SR3 Main, go check out Lung's section of Dargons of the Sixth World.
6thDragon
India and China have a long history. India allowed the Dali Lama to establish himself in Dhamshala (in the Indian Himalayas) after China invaded in the late 1950s. India developed a nuclear weapons program in 1974 because of China's nuclear weapons, together with India being on the loosing end of a boarder war in 1962. In SR times, I know India has seen some problem and would most likely continue to be the most diverse nation on earth, but you can guarantee they would help Tibet fight off any Chinese warlord. I'm not sure how stable India would be and how much assistance they could lend. India also has a long history with Pakistan and various areas of it's own territory with strong separatists leaning today(which I'm honestly amazed haven't achieved independence themselves). Since Tibet achieved independence, India doesn't have a boarder with China and I think India would see any attempts to change that strongly against it's national interest.
Ancient History
You all realize that it would most likely take Lung himself to break through the veil surrounding Tibet?
Kagetenshi
As AH mentioned, Tibet is surrounded by a magical barrier. Nothing gets in except Aneki, and not much comes out. It's going to be quite the high-powered campaign if a warlord finds out a way to crack that.

~J
ting-bu-dong
Hi,
@Ancient History: Yes I do, and that is the problem, as a Chinese invasion (or a movement like the we-want-the-US-back movement in threats (I only have the German book so I am not sure about names)) would be a great story hook, especially since most of my group is politically interested.
The easy way to do it would be to change canon for our personal purpose, but I am hesitant to do that.
Is there information on the nature of the veil? Since most Shadowrun magic is to a certain degree based on real-life physics, there has to be some source keeping the barrier up. My current thought is to arrange sabotage act from within Tibet to lower or weaken the barrier, which would leave Tibet more or less open to the forces of the warlord (early brainstorming right now), making it the runners' task to prevent that (since there is more than one party interested in keeping the status quo, finding a johnson wouldn't be too hard).
Also, I do not have Dragons of the 6th World and for some time will have no opportunity to buy it, so I will ask this: would it be in Lung's interest to turn Tibet Chinese again? All information I have on him is from Awakened Lands where he occupied Tai Shan to keep the temples from being destroyed or claimed by the warlords.

tbd
Kagetenshi
Unless you alter things somewhat I don't think that would work. This isn't a barrier that people occasionally get allowed to pass through; I believe the only person who has been confirmed to have entered Tibet since the barrier went up is Aneki, and he did it via an item that Dunkie left him, so it was definitely in the "extraordinary measures" catagory. You can't slip an agent in, and you can't subvert anyone on the inside because you can't communicate with them.
Correct me if I'm wrong about the lack of people passing through the barrier.

~J
Ancient History
If Tibet's veil is like Tir na nOg's...then it would be about on the level of susained nigh-Ghost Dance level magic. You could try hitting it with a FAB bomb, but anything less than that would be a waste of time, methinks.

Lung is currently working on gaining China under his rule and dealing with Ryumyo. While he might like to have Tibet, it would be ill-advised of him to attack a place that can erect a ward of that magnitude (Which begs the question of who is in Tibet, natch.)
kevyn668
Where did these guys get the mojo to throw up a ward on par w/ the Viel?

And why doesn't TT have one, now that I think about it?
Rev
Because Tir Tangier is the wannabe elf nation, and Tir Na Nog is the real one smile.gif
kevyn668
QUOTE
Rev Posted on Jan 9 2004, 09:27 PM
  Because Tir Tangier is the wannabe elf nation, and Tir Na Nog is the real one 


rotfl.gif

Do they know that? biggrin.gif
Kagetenshi
Tir Tangiers? wink.gif

~J
Rev
It's so lame I can't even remember its name!
Ancient History
Tir Tairngire was working on "The Great Ward." Maybe they tried to cast it from Crater Lake during the Year of the Comet and drained the batteries! nyahnyah.gif
Senchae
QUOTE (kevyn668)
Where did these guys get the mojo to throw up a ward on par w/ the Viel?

And why doesn't TT have one, now that I think about it?

Harly claims they are working on one, in the TT book. He says to Aegis "Ask how progress goes concerning the Great Ward," or something along those lines.

My theory is, they know that such a working is dangerous for similar reasons that the GGD was dangerous and don't want to throw around such heavy mojo when they don't really need to yet. As such, in their eyes it's TNN that's being irresponsible...

But then, our game takes place in TT, so we don't have the highest opinions of our elven cousins across the pond... wink.gif

edit: Damn it, AH slipped in while I was typing.
Ancient History
SOlly CHolly.

If it makes anyone interested, the Veil around Tir na nOg does create a bit of a spike. The high-muckety-muck elves don't care because the Veil will protect them from most of the Horrors anyways. Or so Aina said.
kevyn668
Thanks. What about the Tibetians and thier mojo? (sigh) More IEs or is some dragon pulling thier strings?
Synner
Who says it isn't the Tibetans or something else entirely rather than the usual suspects? devil.gif
Diesel
Haven't you seen those monk dudes? They're fucking madmen, they can boil water by envisioning fire and create the equivalent of a small nuclear explosion using only their fist and your face. They can put up two veils if they want, fine by me.
FlakJacket
QUOTE (Ancient History)
China broke into five or so warring states, with Hong Kong gaining independance.

Oh so close yet so far. smile.gif There's quite a few more than just the original five that were mentioned in the main book. Canon provinces/warlord states that we know about so far include Hong Kong- Wuxing and the PPG own the place or are getting on to it, the Canton Confederation, Imperial Kingdom of Beijing, Macao- mercenary central for Asia, Gansu- Aztechnology owns the space launch centre here, Xinjiang- big dusty place that's radioactive in parts and home of a respectable part of the Gobi desert, Guangxi- part of the smuggling pipeline from Macao into/out of the warlord states, Henan- run by a bunch of Communists, Shaanxi- got invaded and taken over by the Henan Communists, Shandong- fairly industrialised province and home to the Ta'i Shan mountains where Lung's set up shop.

QUOTE (kevyn668)
Thanks. What about the Tibetians and thier mojo? (sigh) More IEs or is some dragon pulling thier strings?

As Synner said, who's to say that Buddhism isn't just responsible? All those monks together, perhaps they performed a sort of Eastern Ghost Dance. Place is so remote and with a lot of ancient sites I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't stumble across some very old ED era knowledge.

Ooo, now there's an idea. IIRC in ED there was a way of re-Naming a person who was head of a magical group so that they were all kind of linked together and the leaders magical power got a boost. It's mentioned in Cybertech. Now if you figure the Dalai Lama as both head a theocracy that runs the place plus a major religion as well... Then you'd be cooking with gas.

And as the nasty thought of the day, are they blocked off from both the astral and the metaplanes? Could the bugs visit the place? Completely blocked off from the outside world, the could do a mass invasion/investing as it were mostly undisturbed. Then the barriers come down and out come the hordes.

And as a side note, in my games the magical barrier also surreounded most of what is today Qinghai province since that used to be part of Tibet before the Chinese broke off a large part of Tibet and added it to Qinghai AFAIK.
Grey
Does anyone know how Aneki's glove worked? It allowed him in, sure, but how did it do that? Perhaps he would be able to take someone else in with him? Maybe one of the Warlords have the glove stolen (perhaps that could be a fun Shadowrun all to itself) and then uses it to invade Tibet. Or maybe has some high grade mages figure out how to make more of the gloves. Who knows? I'm just brainstorming.
Ancient History
Just because it's called "THe Seal of Green GLoves" doesn't mean it's an actual pair of gloves.

Likewise, I'm sure there's more than enoguh mojo in TIbet to create a Veil, with our without an IE.
Grey
Now you are just nit-picking, oh wait, I forgot who I was talking to wink.gif

Anyhow, it doesn't make a difference if its a glove or anything else, my ideas and questions still stand.
ting-bu-dong
Hi,
my knowledge on magic theory is not too vast, but a thought popped up in my head just now: would such a ward be affected by the presence of a high background count or a low mana warp such as it is created by genocide and similar acts? What about blood magic?
Another thought: Wouldn't a powerful magical threat like a large bug spirit hive be in some way able to weaken the barrier so a couple of initiates could open something like a gate large enough to allow troops to pass through?
Maybe the warlord is insane enough to make a pact with a toxic shaman in order to accomplish his goal. Maybe the shaman seeks an ancient artifact from a buddhist monastery to increase his power? Maybe the warlord does?
Thoughts?

tbd
mfb
i think the best answer is probably a simple 'the warlord found some magic thingie that lets him pass troops through'.
ting-bu-dong
Hi,
@mfb: I agree, since the runners probably won't have much chance to investigate the nature of the ward breaking, it would indeed be too much effort to come up with a paralogical solution.
@ all: Is somebody here familiar with Chinese, Tibetan or Buddhist mythology? Is there a myth about something (a relic, a temple, something) that would be worth going through all the trouble for?
The remaining problem is that why the warlord would first try to attack the warded Tibet if there are dozens of other provinces he could conquer first. Or maybe it's just that he wants to wait for Lung and Ryomyo to keep each other busy before the tries to mess with Lung (which would be inevitable if it concerns the reconstruction of China).

tbd
Ancient History
QUOTE (ting-bu-dong)
Hi,
my knowledge on magic theory is not too vast, but a thought popped up in my head just now: would such a ward be affected by the presence of a high background count or a low mana warp such as it is created by genocide and similar acts? What about blood magic?
Another thought: Wouldn't a powerful magical threat like a large bug spirit hive be in some way able to weaken the barrier so a couple of initiates could open something like a gate large enough to allow troops to pass through?
Maybe the warlord is insane enough to make a pact with a toxic shaman in order to accomplish his goal. Maybe the shaman seeks an ancient artifact from a buddhist monastery to increase his power? Maybe the warlord does?
Thoughts?

tbd

It depends on the nature of the ward. If it is like Tir na nOg's Veil, then a sufficiently high-grade initiate or magical threat could get through, perhaps with a few (few) followers. If it is an actual ward or magical barrier, then the force it must have to cover Tibet would such that even a ritual dispelling probably wouldn't do more than weaken a section of it, and even then perhaps not enough to break through.

Just on a speculation, the Seal of Green Gloves may not be magical, just a sort of passport that the monks would create a hole to allow the holder to pass through.
toturi
QUOTE (ting-bu-dong)
@ all: Is somebody here familiar with Chinese, Tibetan or Buddhist mythology? Is there a myth about something (a relic, a temple, something) that would be worth going through all the trouble for?

You could try to some of Jing Yung's wu xia novels.

Maybe the warlord's brother was wounded by some kind of uber-martial arts of Tibetian origin and legend has it that the Tibetians have a cure. Or maybe that the assassin was a renegade monk or you could take a page out of the Bulletproof Monk and some scroll of ultimate power lies in Tibet.
Senor 187
Tibet has vimana UFOs with nuclear lasers so I wouldn't mess with them.
mfb
this page is a good starting place for any religious queries.
Velocity
QUOTE
FlakJacket wrote:
Now if you figure the Dalai Lama as both head a theocracy that runs the place plus a major religion as well... Then you'd be cooking with gas.

Isn't there a precedent for this in Aztlan?
Shockwave_IIc
Personally i wouldn't mess with Tibet or any of the monks with their funky new and cool flaming fists of doom.

Nor would i let any of my players have their cool powers either extinguish.gif
mfb
the seal itself isn't necessarily an artifact of any great power, any more than a given key has anything to offer beyond the ability to open it's mated lock. maybe there's a secret to creating the seal, which someone may have discovered and used to make more seals.
Grey
QUOTE (mfb)
the seal itself isn't necessarily an artifact of any great power, any more than a given key has anything to offer beyond the ability to open it's mated lock. maybe there's a secret to creating the seal, which someone may have discovered and used to make more seals.

Thats exactly what I was thinking earlier. It could make for an interesting campain.
ting-bu-dong
Hi,
to those interested in it: I started the campaign today, and this is what I made of the brainstorming:

Shiawase, one of the biggest Bio- and Geneware corps, has experimented with modifying orcs into cheap mercenaries, taking advantage of their good physical qualities, their tendency to reproduce in large numbers, and their short childhood, augmenting them with something like bioware.
The runners were hired by Ares to steal the development files, destroy all remains of them in the lab's computer and if possible extract one prototype (a 2 meter tall, overly muscular and tough orc to be exact).
The facility itself was not very original and the runners succeeded. After some weeks their Johnson called back, saying that they had gone through the files and found out that 300 of these orcs had been sold to Qinghai, a former province in western China.
The runners, as they already had background information and experience with the prototypes, were hired to investigate the impact of the orc sale on the balance of power in Qinghai.
They were flown there, rented a van and started to investigate. Their fixer contact was a Chinese dwarf named Yao Qian ("wants money" - a stereotype greedy fixer).
In Qinghai, a local Warlord, general Ai, had been corrupted by the toxic Ant shaman Mayi ("ant") into believing that if he found an ancient buddhist artifact in Tibet, he would be able to restore China to its former power and glory.
The shaman's objective was to find this artifact for himself, to quicken and strengthen the building of the ant spirit hive. He had from some source obtained an artifact that allowed a small unit to pass through the Tibet barrier.
After the runners had run into a patrol of general Ai (see the Shadowrun D20 thread, page 14), they were given a side quest by Yao Qian. Their operations were based in the large city of Lanzhou, which got its power from several dams very close to the city. The nearest dam had stopped sending status reports etc. some days ago and militia patrol that were sent there to investigate never returned. Some ant spirits had taken control of the dam to use it as a weapon against Lanzhou so the city could be flooded if Mayi's plans would fail.
After the runners had succeeded at cleaning the dam from the ant spirits (there were not too many of them), they are now working on preparing observations of a meeting between Ai, Mayi and several other warlords, triad members and Wuxing representatives, negotiating a coup and founding of a western Chinese nation under Ai's rule and strong triad and Wuxing influence.
However, all this is a plot by Mayi to create a huge ant hive in Qinghai and if possible even larger. Also, Lung will be quite concerned about this as Ai actually has quite good chances of succeeding if he is backed by ant spirits, the triads and Wuxing.

Comments on the previous events or ideas for further plot development?

tbd
Reaver
QUOTE (Grey)
Does anyone know how Aneki's glove worked? It allowed him in, sure, but how did it do that? Perhaps he would be able to take someone else in with him? Maybe one of the Warlords have the glove stolen (perhaps that could be a fun Shadowrun all to itself) and then uses it to invade Tibet. Or maybe has some high grade mages figure out how to make more of the gloves. Who knows? I'm just brainstorming.

Aneki dies in Brainscan. I can't remember if the gloves are with him or not. My group hasn't gotten that far into it yet.
sable twilight
QUOTE (Velocity)
QUOTE
FlakJacket wrote:
Now if you figure the Dalai Lama as both head a theocracy that runs the place plus a major religion as well... Then you'd be cooking with gas.

Isn't there a precedent for this in Aztlan?

Except the religion of Aztlan has not been continuously practiced for the past 2,000 years nor has that religious leader been dying and reincarnating and retaining full knowledge of his prior lives for the past couple hundred years (or longer).
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (sable twilight)
[...] reincarnating and retaining full knowledge of his prior lives for the past couple hundred years

In all fairness, neither has the Dalai Lama. Dying, yes. Reincarnating and retaining full knowledge, no.
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