So, running my fingers through the various expantions of SR that I have (Armory, Street Magic, and Runner Havens) I realized that a lot of people on Jackpoint give a lot of advice, and a lot of it is stuff that no one listens to.

So, I did what I could to make a Shadowrunner who follows all the advice in the book (or, at least, all the advice I could fit into a standard 400BP build) and saw what I came up with. He ended up being somewhat of a jack-of-all-trades. He is a little bit of a face, and a little bit Street Sam, and even a smidge of a hacker. Though he isn't GREAT at any of these, I wanted to know what you guys though. Would he last in a standard Shadowrun game? What would your prototypical runner look like, and how would he be different?

NOTE: I reworked his gear a few times, so the money-gear ratio might be a little off.
Note2: In order for everyone to look him up on equal ground, I only used gear and stuff from the main book.
Note 3: Notepad doesn't have the symbol, so I used $. Deal.
Note 4: I assumed a Seattleite runner. For a Hong Kong Runner, or whatever, adjust the knowledge skills and contacts (and Languages) accordingly.


'Everyman'
Stereotypical Shadowrunner, Male Human

Agl:5, Bod:4, Rea: 3(5) Str: 3, Chr:3, Int:4 Log:3 Will:3 Edge:4
Physical:10, Stun 10, Init 7(9) Passes 1(3)

Essense (3.1)

Group: Influence 3
Group: Firearms 4
Group: Stealth 3
Group: Electronics 2
Group: Cracking:2
First Aid :3
Perception:2
Pilot, Groundcraft 3

Knowledge:
Seattle Gangs:3
Seattle Orginized crime:3
Seattle Shadowruning scene:3
Tactics (Against Magic):2+2
Megacorp Politics:3
Lang: Or'zet:3
Lang: Chinese: 3
Lang: English N

Addiction- Mild (Smoking)
Allergy- Moderate to Uncommon Food
SINner- Criminal

Contacts:
Fixer Loyalty 1, Connection 2
Ork Underground Streetear, Loyal 2, Con 1
Gianelli Footsoldier, Loyal 1, Con 1
Reality Hacker Contact, Loayl 2, Con 1

CASH, 110000

Hamereli 620 (4p, RC 1, Smartlink)$650
-Consealable Holster $75
-Silencer $200
-4 spare Mags $20
-50 normal rounds $100
-50 gel rnds $150

Ares Predator (5p, RC2 AP-1, Smartlink)$350
-Quick Draw Holster $100
-Gas Vent 2 $200
-4 spare Mags $20
-50 normal rnds $100
-50 EX Explosive rnds $500

Ares Alpha (6p, AP-1, 5(6)RC Smartlink) $1700
-Gas Vent 3 $400
-Shock Pad $50
-4 Spare mags $20
-100 rnds normal ammo$200
-100 rnds EX Explosive $1000

Armor Jacket(8/6) $900
-Nonconductive 5 (1000)
Actioneer Buisness Clothes (5/3)$1500

Hermes Ikon Running Novatech Navi ($4500)(Sys 4, Signal 3, Fireawll 3, System 4)
-Modified for Hotsim $250
-Analyse 5 (500)
-Browse 5 (500)
-Command 3 (150)
-Exploit 3 (1500)
-Stealth 3 (1500)
-Firewall 5 (2500)
-Biofeedback Filter 6($6000)

Subvocal Mic $50
Earbuds $10
-Audio Enhancers 3 $300
-Select Sound Filter 3 $600

Electronic Toolkit $500
Fake SIN 3 ($3000)
Fake Gun License 3 ($300)

Autopicker 6 ($1200)
Maglock Sequencer 4 ($800)

Medkit 6 ($600)
Stim Patch Rating 4 x5 ($1000)
Trama Patch x2 ($1000)

Cybereyse Rating 3 (.4)1000
-Flare Comp $750
-Low Light $1000
-Smartlink $1000
-Thermo $1000
-Vision Enhancement 2 $3000
-Vision Mag $1000

Datajack (.1) $500

Alphaware Wired Reflexes 2 (2.4) $64000

Low Lifestyle 1 mo.

BBB p225 -

Crap, yeah, see what I mean, I messed around with the gear and made a couple mistakes. Remove some of his gear, reduce his biofeedback filter to 5, and increase his comlink's System to 5.

The easiest way to break it down is to total things up into dice pools.

For combat, he's going to have 9 dice, 11 if smartlinked. That's not bad for a secondary shooter, but bad for a primary combatant.

Social, he gets 6 dice. That's about even with Joe Average, so he's not going to be faring well there. With the low contact ratings, he's not going to be able to get a lot of extras out of them.

Decking, he gets 6 dice. That's just bad. He won't be able to get anywhere with that.

You might think his versatility can make up for a lot, but in practice, he'll be useless. He can't fight as well as the combat types, he can't match a face, and he can't hack worth a damn. There's no reason to hire him, not when you can hire a specialist.

Remember, Shadowrun has always been about teams of specialists, working together. A generalist has no real place in a Shadowrunning team.

Edit: Missed your last post. His general decking DP's can reach 6, but most of what you'll be foing is using Exploit, which leaves you at a dismal 5 dice.

Joe Average gets 6 dice? Or do you mean the "Average Professional in the field"? For social skills , rating three is listed as "Face, Mr.Johnson, Professional sales rep"



I understand that each table has different power levels. For a low die count table, this is a good character.

If there's any skill a "Joe Average" can be said to have, it's at least one social skill at 3. At any event, he won't be out-negotiating a Johnson, getting better rates from fences, talking his way past guards, or any of the usual Face roles.

Each table does indeed have different power levels, but he asked how Mr. Average would fare in a "Standard" Shadowrun game. Given that there's still a lot of variety there, he still wouldn't stack up. He can't even compete with the sample characters in the BBB, let alone stand on his own.

The worst part about this character would be that it'd be extremely hard to guarantee him spotlight time. He's always going to be playing second fiddle to someone else. That's a prescription for No Fun, which is something I really hate to see in my games.

No skinlink on your gear? I do hope you enjoy getting hacked occasionally. Also, instead of cybereyes, have you considered contacts and goggles?

It depends on how honed your game setting is, going strictly by the BBB, specifically the sample 'grunts', the character shown above is just 1 die beneath Professional Level 5 opponents (Red Samurai detachment) when it comes to the bang-bang. Though admittedly, he is a bit weak in the chit-chat department. None of my players run such generic characters, but so far none are fully specialized either.

When I grew up in Los Angeles, I could totally agree. Now that I live in the San Francisco Bay, I have to disagree. Maybe there is something to Hackers being Uncouth.

I'd also point out the lack of Dodge or a Close Combat skill; IMO, if he's a sam-type as well as the other two, I'd put an unarmed of at least 2+2 in there somewhere. Then scrape up some points for Athletics Group. I'd cut out the hacking, IMO, and maybe just try to go sam/face/MAYBE with a bit of data search. You can make someone who does a fair bit of everything, but there comes a time where splitting it up gets rather tough. Attributes look good, though. It's a fun concept, it just can be a tiny bit hard to pull off.

"Joe Average" has a single Social Skill at Rating 1, if that. "Joe Salesman" has one Social Skill at Rating 1-2 and a second at Rating 1.

The character above can very easily outperform the typical citizen at social interaction. Shadowrunners, however, rarely need to deal with the typical citizen.

I've had a lot of characters like this come to my table, and generally the Players refer to them as "investment characters." At the beginning of the campaign, the team takes lower end work and the campaign style is a bit of street with their eyes on the horizon. As the campaign progresses, the character will naturally advance in a certain area that the player enjoys and the team needs.

For the build, I would trade down 1 point in Firearms to purchase 1 point in Athletics. Also, ask yourself what this guy does in his free time and spend a few of the knowledge skills on his interests and hobbies. Too often I think, players try to get all the knowledge skills that are important to them and forget about the ones that their character would know just by being who they are. (Unless he's a rabid fan, most of the random knowledge can be picked up a Rating 1)

I disagree, but even then, let's look at the dice. Mr. Everyman has a whopping 6 social dice. Mr. Average will have a CHA of 3, and a social skill of at least 1 or 2. That means, five dice compared to six. Less than one success average difference, not even enough to assume anything better than a tie.

He would do great in any game I run or play in. He would do poorly in any of the bucket o dice games many people seem to enjoy. My street sam made due with a 5 agility 4 firearms in Counterveils game. Heck I made due even after losing my primary arm and I had to shoot left for a few runs. If you need to role more than 11 dice to shoot your average opposition, well in those games the character would fair poorly. The change I'd make is try to come up with 20 points and boost your edge to 6, edge is frickin awesome.

While I understand the point of view Cain is coming from--4-5 Dice for Mr Average vs 6 dice for Everyman, I believe the primary difference is playstyle. Everyman isn't built to be a primary face, but can get the job done in a pinch (preferably by adding positive modifiers to his DP) or he can help the Face with a tricky task. At the beginning of his career, Everyman is going to be a support and the right hand man for a lot of people. He can help with Teamwork tests for nearly everyone and handle the small tasks. As the campaign continues, he will grow into the role that the team needs, but have a solid base in everything else. After the first few runs, buying a specialization here or there will provide a solid advantage against Mr. Average. Beyond that, Everyman has plenty of room to develop with gear upgrades and implants.

Instead of focussing on the short term and rolling out the gate as the best in the world, Everyman seems to build on a view of the longue duree. He is built along realistic guidelines and can come from a myriad of backgrounds to explain his skills. Explaining why the world's best hostage negotiator is running the shadows instead of selling out to a Corp becomes a cliche.

It's a playstyle that fits well at my table he can be just as successful as the specialists, because the specialists wouldn't have succeeded without him. YMMV.

you forgot to buy minigrenades for the Ares Alpha.

Not Jackpoint shadowtalk but Runner's Companion has a lot of advice for creating shadowrunners.

The post was "The Best Shadowrunner"

The character is nowhere near that. Sorry but it's not. With the scaling karma system that SR uses it does aim more for optimization of a character since it will cost a hell of a lot more then just picking up some skill wires and being better sauce then this runner.

Seriously average stats + average skills means that a runner with r4 skillwires and slightly better stats will punk the crud out of this character. The sammie grabs more cyber/bioware to boost some of the lacking stats, drops the hacking, get some of the cheap jammers and other nitty gritty gear that does not cost much, and buy an agent that will better at the matrix then this character will be able to do w/o having to invest some serious karma and you have created a better character w/o the need to do a lot of juggling.

I mean this is Shadowrun. It is a system built towards optimization. Generally when you sit down at a table with four or more people at least two of them bring some serious characters to the table, and the dude who rolls low ends up glitching or crit glitching so much that it's almost a pain in the ass to handle rule wise. When a character like this hits the table against people who brought a better rolled up character you really notice the difference. If the character is matching dice or under rolling against the NPCs in the BBB you might at least want to have a talk with the player and tell him that the character is probably not going to shine in any given situation. I mean at one point someone in our group seriously created this character and he totally sucked it up. I mean I created an adept rigger and he was just better at every thing then his character. In fact everyone in the party could pretty much outplay this guy.



Rating in skills go from r1 to r6. Rating 3 in a skill is professional. If you have worked in the service industry for a few years you probably have a rating 3 in at least one or two of the social skills. Probably r3 in negotiation and r2 or maybe r3 in con. You also get better at spotting liars even if sometimes you can't really call them on it. A car mechanic has a rating of 3 and it doesn't take you 6+ years to get a rating 3 in a skill for the most part (surgery and those messy fiddly bits when dealing with humans tend to take longer I'll admit.)

Shadowrun is a game where you play as a member of a team of specialists, who do hazardous missions, generally working under the table. Note that I said specialists, not one-trick ponies. Most shadowrunners should be able to function in a few areas outside of their specialty. Some might even be good at more than one specialty - or their specialty might be pretty broad.

But while it is possible to make a character so hyper-specialized that he has glaring weaknesses, it is also even easier to overgeneralize a character to the point of uselessness. This guy - he's functional, at least. But he's going to be playing second fiddle to everyone else. Maybe even third fiddle - people buffing a secondary specialty are likely to outperform him. Is that really a role that sounds like it would be interesting?

Sure, you could argue that he has "growth potential", but the specialists are just as able to learn new skills - they might be better at it - the sammie might buy 10 activesofts, or get a skill at rating: 1 but have a high dice pool for it because of his Agility of 9. The adept might buy two levels of improved Ability: Etiquette and a point of Kinesics to suddenly become a better face. Magic and technology are both, by design, able to quickly and easily boost a character's power and abilities.

Here's a quick take on an alternate generalist build, that tries to actually be useful and the skills:

Ork, Adept

Edges and Flaws
Human Looking (5)
Adept (5)
35 points of flaws to taste.

Body 4
Agility 5(7)
Reaction 5(6)
Strength 3
Charisma 4
Intuition 5
Logic 2
Willpower 3

Edge 3
Magic 5(4)
Initiative 10(11)

Essence 5.0

Skills:
Influence Group 4 (12 dice)
Intimidation 4 (12 dice)
Perception 5 (12 dice)
Infiltration 5 (12 dice)
Automatics 3 (10 dice, 12 after smart link)
Heavy Weapons 1 (8 dice, for grenade launcher)
Unarmed Combat 3 (10 dice)
Gymnastics 3 (11 dice)

Adept Powers
Combat Sense 3
Kinesics 4
Enhanced Perception 2

Gear 24000/130000 left
Contacts 11 points

You are actually useful at all of your sub areas, and you don't have any cyberware to set off the detectors. You have only 2 IP, but do have 9 passive defense due to combat sense.

I do not see the Bioware.

Sorry, should be:
muscle toner 2
synaptic accelerator 1
synthacardium 1

if you can give up your gymnastics dodge being worth anything, you could trade out gymnastics 3 for athletics group 1, leaving you with 9 dice for all the athletics actions and 2 BP.

The most obvious place to squeeze points is out of your edge, and plan to buy it up right away.

With some changes, you could go for magic 1/adept 3, mystic adept and pay for counter spelling 6.

Using the same basic build you get:
drop edge to 1
switch to mystic adept
switch skills to:

Athletics (Group) 1 (9 dice)
Influence (Group) 4 (11 dice)
Intimidation 4 (11 dice)
Automatics 3 (10 dice + smartlink)
Stealth (Group) 2 (7-9 dice, depending on relevant stat)
Counter spelling 6
Heavy Weapons 1 (8 dice)
Unarmed Combat 3 (10 dice)
perception 1 (6 dice)

and adept powers to
Combat Sense 3
Kinesics 3

So you trade 2 edge, 6 dice of perception, 1 die in social skills, and 3 dice in stealth, but get counterspelling 6. You have 1 BP left over, which you should probably put into Y to stock up on perception enhancing goodies.

Hmm, did I introduce a flaw in the the excel file? might be 8 points over on the first build...

I agree with Cain, generalists just don't play very well. I love the idea of a Macguiver style of character, I've tried to make them in the past and I've used them on several occasions in actual play, but I've never been able to make one that could keep up with the pack.

However I also try really hard to avoid creating hyperspecialists. They just don't hold a lot of appeal to me.

My the best 'middle ground' that I've found is to split the focus of my PC's in two directions. I pick one skillset that I devote most my focus to and a second to round it out. Generally the second will be used to fill a role needed by the team. Finding a way for the two roles to be related can be a lot of fun too.

Just as an example I once played a Hacker Face. He was an information broker who could bust into just about any system to dig up the dirt on people and use it to give him an edge in negotiations. Most of his contacts were virtual but they were spread across the globe and he had major connections with the BrainEaters who fed him local knowledge. He was a far cry from a pornomancer in face to face negotiations but he made up for it any time there was legwork, and he was an pretty damn good hacker, capable of busting into security systems, cybercombat, operating drones and the like. He did have a weakness however. He was fragile in the meat world, only rolled 7 or 8 dice to resist damage and something like 4 dice to shoot at something so you could never call him a true generalist. Wasn't a big deal though as long as the team had some sort of combat monkey to keep the heat off him when they were getting shot at he was good.

By the same token I've made both Hackers and Faces who were perfectly serviceable in a fight too, not to mention other combination's, there was an adept who could cover combat and B&E, a summoner focused mage who was also a rocking face, and others. The problem only really comes up when you try and combine three skill areas. Generalize too much and you've got a recipe for mediocrity. The karma build system helps this somewhat but not enough to make them really viable.

Mages, TM's and to a certain extent Adepts are a bit of a special case. They are by definition are specialized. However they can still generalize within their 'field'. The summoner mage could absolutely dominate a negotiation, sometimes going so far as to use mind control and the like. If a fight broke out, he hid behind his spirits but up until the moment guns were drawn it was his show. Everything was encapsulated within 'mage' however and although he was a bit tougher than the Hacker/Face no one would mistake him for someone good in a fight. I've never played a TM of any stripe so I can't really comment on them other than the fact that it seems as though extreme specialization is essential to make them viable.

Of course every group is going to be different. Mines pretty small, so we need to cover multiple roles so it works for us. In a big group of extreme specialists my characters would get eaten alive but they're good enough for the way I play.

Sorry, I've been offline for a bit . . . had trouble with my internet.

Seems that I either misspoke, or that I was not clear enough. I did NOT build this guy to be a generalist, I did NOT make this guy to play, I did NOT make this guy to be 'the best shadowrunner ever.' I regret naming the thread that, but here is what I built Mr. Everyman for.

He is designed to be the prototypical shadowrunner from all the 'advice' given in the books. Runner's companion advises for characters to know where they are running, so Mr. Everyman has Knowledges to that purpose. Street magic advises the runners to know how to deal with magic, so he has knowledges to that effect. He's "Decent" (read: not a street sam) in combat, and he knows enough about social interaction to con or spot a con (especially if he tosses in his decent edge.) His Hacking skills, while admittedly bad, will allow him to hack comlinks and such if he needs to, or to assist a hacker in data-searching if the Hacker can get him in. This comes from multiple books telling characters to know the ins-and-outs of the Matrix.

In other words, he tries to follow all of the Shadowrun advice that he can. I envision him as a smart, common sense type character. He always is monitoring a Johnson's Shadowsea cred during a meet, has enough contacts to disappear should he need to, and has a decent array of guns for various different situations (though his Ares Alpha doesn't have grenades because he doesn't have the Heavy Weapons Skill. He got it for it's free smartlink and Recoil reduction.) He has some Cyberware, but he's not all cromed up to leave him some essence, and he can crack a lock or repair some electronics (again, if he tosses in his edge.)

According to the books, Mr. Everyman is the best runner because he follows all of their advice. He is designed to know the scope of the streets, to know what he can do and what he can't do, and what he can't do, he can figure out of find someone who can help him.

Not with his low Social dice pools and Contact ratings, he can't.

If you follow all the advice in the books, the best character is a one-man running team, a mage/sam/otaku/face combination with high double-digit dice pools for everything. That just isn't possible. Instead, you specialize in one area, and rely on contacts and teammates to make up for what you lack. The book advice is to have a character with no weak areas-- but those weak areas are what make characters interesting, and give other players their chance to shine.

Yes Cain, it is abundantly clear that you don't like this build. I asked for input, and you provided, so thank you. I happen to disagree with HOW much you hate him, but that's a difference of opinion.

Just out of curiosity, what do you have against a dice pool of 6 for social? Admittedly, he doesn't beat out a face, and he's not going to be lying to dragons any time soon, but that's not the point. A size 6 dice pool will get him what gear he wants off the black market unless he's looking to purchase military-grade stuff. It certainly beats out your standard Street sam with a char of 1 and zero social skills. Unless you play the game where your face buys everything for you, in which you are in for a rude awakening when the face dies or the you two have a falling out.

Yeah, also, um, none of the SR books recommend for being a superhuman shadowrunning god. Most of them say 1) Be smart, 2) Know a few people who can help you out (like reality hackers or Ork Underground residents) and 3) NO ONE is a superhuman god, so it is better to do your legwork to reduce surprises. And while he won't be tailing Ghosts or out talking Renraku CEOs, he has enough of almost all skills to do appropriate legwork for any case. He can search the matrix for appropriate info, tail subjects, and talk decent enough to get out minor trouble. This guy was an experiment to make the shadowrunner that the book paints. Not a face, not a hacker, not a Street sam, but a 'regular Joe' who is smart enough to survive the shadows. I know you think he is crap, but I did my best to stat the beginning runner that the book paints.

a dice pool of 6 is good for someone who wants to just get by, socially. As a secondary face, it's laughable. Since most social tests are opposed, he won't be out-negotiating people for gear anytime soon, seeing as how they'll have at least an equvalent dice pool, if not a greater one. Looking at the example in the book, your pool of 6 isn't even enough to get an Ares Alpha, without paying extra! Your standard street sam can get by with higher connection ratings, providing more dice to the search tests.

A dice pool of 6 is functional for a lot of things, but it's not nearly to the level of a secondary face. You can even bypass some of the need for a social skill entirely with good enough Contact ratings. The combination of low social dice and low contact ratings equals a serious flaw in his social abilities.


I don't think he's crap. I think that, in a normal Shadowrun game, he'd be no fun to play. I also don't think he'd be very effective at any role.

I know most of my characters have gotten by with social pools between 6-8, sometimes 9ish if they are specialized. Usually around 7. It's not their primary schtick, but I've never ran into horrible problems with it.

Hell, I'll never forget the game where my character was the only one with a Data Search skill. It was 1. His Logic was 3.

He never glitched or critically glitched. He didn't make every roll(thresholds), but those 4 dice went surprisingly a long way.

I'm the type that likes specialists with a touch of hybrid; I end up throwing a pretty healthy amount in my main deal(14-16, we run 750 karma), have a 'secondary role' around 8-12(a 4 die spread, but it depends on situation, skill, increases to the skill, etc.), and those skills that they throw 6-7 in are never useless.

First of all, whenever I GM, I critically botch repeatedly on dice pools in the double-digits.

Second, in my games, we have a suggested cap of 20 dice in a given dice pool, which keeps things gonzo but sane. The pools of 6-8 are the ones that keep a character viable, such as a social pool. It's not enough to really accomplish anything, but it keeps you from making too many embarrassing gaffes. But none of them even tried to outface the Face, with the exception of Mr. Lucky, who spent Edge.

I should also add that your Logic of 3 has nothing to do with your dice pool for Data Search; it's Skill + Program, so it'd be up to your Browse.

Whoops! Well we managed to miss that one. (At the time, we hadn't done too much Matrix-ing. Hell, I still make Matrix mistakes. No matter how long we play 4 it's ingrained in my brain that some kind of brain skill matters here.)

About botching big die pools: I sometimes notice that as well. Now, I'm lucky enough that I don't find myself critically glitching, or rarely even glitching, or anything. But, I find myself sometimes succeeding somehow more with the lower pools than the higher ones. 16 dice for a shooting test? wow, 2 hits. 7 dice for a social test? I watch 5-6 of them come up hits. Go figure.

Mr. Johnson the NPC from the BBB has 10 dice at negotiation and 3 edge. That means he will always outdice or match that runner pretty much every time. I would also like to note that relying on edge for most situations has almost always been a bad idea. Even Mr. Lucky can run out of edge when he is getting blasted by enough long/short narrow bursts. I always found the best way to use edge is with soak rolls or when you need to make that roll or else you are dead. Putting an enemy down in one shot is generally where edge can greatly come into play or maybe when you need to face/tech to save your life. However a player with twice as much dice will probably out preform that character even if the character uses edge. Generally though I have seen edge used mostly for soak or attack rolls (or if it is a mage also summoning and binding rolls.)

I would also like to point out that the characters in the BBB. They are even less generalized then the character that has been rolled out. Those are the "suggested runners." They don't hyper specialize, and can do other things, but they are pretty good at what they do. None of them throw six dice at their primary skill, and they all have primary skills. They also have rolls that they each play. A hacker with six dice will have a tough time fighting against a rating 4 agent.