I'm making a character plus upgrading a SR4 Character Generator Sheet that I found online and I came across the following:

SR4 pg 240
There is a table of how much it costs to raise the Resonance and Signal of a Commlink. This is all fine but it got me thinking. I took the worst Commlink (Meta Link (1/2)) and gave it the upgrades to match the best Commlink (Fairlight Caliban (4/5)) so thats +3 Resonance and +3 Signal. The total cost of the Meta Link (upgraded) is only 1500 vs the 8000 for a stock Fairlight Caliban. Am I missing something? Can someone set me straight here or is this just a loophole in the rules?

Fairlight is making a killing on their brand name and their commlink casing

Yeah, just like you can buy super expensive brand computer or assemble one yourself that will be better and cheaper.

Even still a 7000 difference is A LOT. Even Alienware isn't gouging their customers THAT much. The Firewall and Signal rules are not that out of line.

7k is indeed a lot, but I recall seeing a few computers in the upper thousands for those with more money than sense. most were 24k gold plated, however.

I favour adapting Trollman's rules on buying Commlinks, they're pretty reasonable in my opinion.

You'll have to scroll a way down to get to the Hacking Gear section.

I would say in some respects Alienware could fit that motif just on levels of performance vs. cost. It is basically a prestige machine when you get into the higher end of there catalog. Those bells and whistles and up fast.

There is no "+3" when upgrading commlinks. You pay for the new rating, period. So upgrading a metalink to 4/5 would cost 3,000 . That's still nearly 5,000 in savings over the Fairlight, though. High-end stock commlinks seem like something only NPCs would use.

Commlinks are one of those archetype-identifying pieces of gear. A hacker will have a tricked out Meta Link running an OS he wrote himself. A mage will have a Fairlight Caliban running Novatech Navi. A street sam with spare karma will have an upgraded Novatech Airware with a custom OS courtesy of his favorite matrix contact (though he's still got his old Iris Orb on a chip in his apartment, just in case).

I think I may have found a solution that is fair and would encourage people to buy the better comlinks. If you have to pay for each level above your current then the price becomes more fair.

Example:

Meta Link (1/2) you want to be like a Fairlight Caliban (4/5)
It would cost 750+1250+2000+150+500+1000 = 5,650 for the upgrades plus 100 for the original Meta Link for a total of 5,750 for the Upgraded Meta Link (only a savings of 2,250)

As noted above – in a cross post – I am pretty sure that hardware upgrade costs are supposed to be cumulative. I.E. pay for going from 1 to 2, then pay for going from 2 to 3 etc.

Based on that you get the following total cost for a 4/5 comlink:

• 5,960 ¥   Complete Custom
• 5,750 ¥   Meta Link
• 5,800 ¥   CMT Clip
• 5,450 ¥   Sony Emperor
• 5,250 ¥   Renraku Sensei
• 4,750 ¥   Novatech Airware
• 5,500 ¥   Erika Elite
• 4,500 ¥   Hermes Ikon
• 6,000 ¥   Transys Avalon
• 8,000 ¥   Fairlight Caliban

Any of the above further upgraded to 6/6 would be another 15,000 ¥

Naturally, the table is intended for incremental upgrades - i.e. upgrading from Rating 1 to Rating 3 requires you to buy Rating 2 and then Rating 3. So the real cost of upgrading a Response 1/Signal 1 commlink to a Response 5/Signal 5 commlink is 9,960 .

Unless the Runner is dumb then he will get the latest and the greatest





This is where I have to disagree with you AH, as long as the motherboard will accept it, then you can jump from a piece of crap machine to an uber machine. Since Shadowrun rules don't delineate changing out the "motherboard" of a commlink then you can't say that you have to upgrade step by step.

Unfortunately that is how a lot of older SR players think as the Fairlight Excalibur was cheaper then a custom Deck with the same states. From a game point of view this is how it should be. It leaves the door open for munchkin activity.



You would think from a retailer point of view that they would pass the costs of each incremental step to the customer. So doing incremental upgrades makes sence (even if your not doing an incremental upgrade to the comlink).

I think many of us assumed that it wasn't incremental on account of it referring to a singular "Response Chip" and the parallel with modern processing hardware implied that you don't upgrade the Rating, it just gets replaced. Thanks for clarification. Is this actually spelt out in the rules somewhere? I certainly never came across something that implied it.

Incidentally, my GM houseruled that you can only upgrade to twice the base stats of your 'link under the replacement assumption. It somewhat balanced things out.

That is a good house rule. It means the Fairlight Caliban is still a good buy (for future upgrade potential).

sadly this is not something thats spelled out clearly, and there is nothing else in the book (or any other book) that behaves that way, that i can recall right now...

Which is why I call bovine manure on the "you have to do incremental upgrades" process.

Besides, is it REALLY game breaking to allow commlinks to be upgraded in one step. Magic/Resonance oh, HELL yeah, commlinks... not really. As you pointed out Hobgoblin, nothing else in the game uses this rule.

Also it is balanced out by the fact that if this custom commlink gets damaged then replacing it with another custom job is going to be a stone bitch.

A Response 5, Signal 5 commlink has two availability 12 components. That's going to be pretty hard to replace on a short notice. If you want rating 6 on either... Availability 16! Pretty hard to just go to the local Radio Hut and pick one up if you need it in a day.

That is true but it would be nice if the upgrades were more inline with other areas on a comlink. Upgrading the firewall or system isn't so badly broken.

You know, you don't have to incrementally upgrade your Firewall or System, so why should there be a separate rule for components?

It's not game breaking to allow good commlinks go for fairly cheep, having a commlink with 6's in everything doesn't make you some kind of god or anything. For your average non-hacker runner, signal and firewall are really all that's neccesary to be a high rating, and response/system is mostly just used for getting a good analyze and thus better security. Heck, with the upgrades being non-incremental my mage spend more on their link then any of their guns or armor.

As for the cost of pre-built machines, it's really just the megacorp influence. The high end machines are more status then power. Anyone who needs that kind of power should be able to purchase the parts and assemble the machine themselves, just like in real life, so the only reason to buy a fairlight is to say you have one.

I may just be an idiot, but I read the rules as saying that, if you wanted to get a lvl 5 in, say, signal, you had to buy a level 5 signal. So it didn't matter if you wanted to upgrade from a lvl 2 signal or a lvl 4 signal, you had to replace the whole unit (in this case, the tranciever array, which totals $1000.)

You don't actually upgrade your commlinks stats, you replace them. You buy a new rating 5 antenna, and put it where the old rating 2 antenna was. In other words, whether you are starting with a meta clip or a fairlight, it costs the same to get 6's under the hood.

The wording is not great, but it is meant to be for incremental upgrades. Hence cumulative.

The two tables below essentially mean the same thing.

HARDWARE UPGRADE COSTS
HARDWARE REPLACEMENT COSTS

That makes the base Comlinks useless then. As a hacker you should just buy the best rating parts right off the bat and not worry about the comlink or OS they use. I don't like that at all.

That's just the way the SR4 character gear rules work, though. It's more efficient to buy the best at chargen, and not worry about upgrades later. Programs are the biggest offender, here: it's cheaper and easier to buy rating 6 programs right off the bat, even though you can't fully use them, instead of buying low and upgrading later.

If comparing to real life you figure the hacker would be able to save a drek load of money with software connections as well as being able to perform the upgrades himself. After all I'm typing away on a pc that would sell for 4000.00 and my friend who is a Microsoft certified engineer built it for 1100.00. Just a thought.

And why the heck would a hacker use a pre-made commlink, ever? Even today people with good hardware skills build there own computers from components instead of buying pre-fabricated machines, and they save a ton of money by doing so.

As for getting the best early, you actually can only max the firewall on your link in the beginning, your response and signal are capped by availability, and thats just kinda how SR works. Not letting the hacker start with a grade A link is like not letting the sami start with an Ares Alpha. If you don't want them to have the uber gear, lower starting availability and give an availability to programs.

The base commlinks do have a use however. Not all runners have a contact where they could get high end computing near, nore do they have the hardware skill necessary to assemble it. Besides, not everyone in the world is a hacker, most people just buy the best link they can afford, and never even think of building their own. Carrying around an old CMT Clip with Vector Xim instead of a home built monstrosity goes a long way to saying "I'm a normal innocent civilian, don't mind me". Better commlinks can help you masquerade as different social classes.

there are some qualities in RC that allows the hacker to get around those availability limits, iirc...

Hey, I had a question, kinda funny thing I thought about when I was generating NPCs.

Could a Technomancer have a comlink, and use that as a 'Relay Signal?' I mean, technomansers can wirelessly communicate with any wireless machine, right? So a Technomancer who's 'native' signal is 3 could by a comlink with signal 5, and use that as a relay right? She could even put some programs that aren't in her complex form on the comlink . . . just something to think about.

Know anyone who has built their own blackberry? Ok, how about their own iPhone? Small, highly integrated electronics packages are hard for hobbyists who don't own their own fab to build from scratch. I'd actually expect that the active electronics in a comlink are a single chip and the rest of the package is battery, antenna and interface. Oh, and that chip is fairly tamper resistant, so you have to pay the "right" vendors for your phone calls.

After a bit of consideration I like the commlink prices. I think they reflect real life pretty well.

You can't beat the Sony Emperor's and the Renraku Sensei's prices if you build a similar system yourself. They probably have warehouses full of Response 1-3 and Signal 1-4 parts. They can assemble and sell them for cheaper than you can build them and will turn a great profit because TONS of people are buying this crap. But those elitest folks that aren't so technically elite are wanting more power. They are willing to pay Erika, Hermes and Fairlight a bit more for better machines. Sure, they could go to the corner shop and get some kid to build them a similar system for less but big brand names bring a certain financial security.

I worked in a computer shop for a few years and this is how it worked for us. We couldn't beat HP and Dell on their lil $400-$500 crap systems with 19" LCDs but we could build potent systems that rivaled Voodoo & Falcon Northwest for 1/3 of the price. Even then people would pay $5000+ for a Voodoo system because its a very well established name.

Oh, and there is nothing that mentions incremental purchasing. Going from Response 3 to a "New Rating" 5 in still an "Increase". Until I see errata or more proof then I'm simply paying for the new rating.

That's now. Take things forward about 60 years, and things change dramatically.

For the record, I know people who've built up their own laptops, which is comparable.

For the same reason I'm using a premade system. I am extremely lazy. It seems that everyone in this thread is making the big unfounded assumption that your own labour is free. That is a lie. If you believe that then you should switch to using Linux.

Money was never, and will never be, the only determinant of what you think reasonable.

Well, the rules aren't terribly clear, but from what I can tell, upgrading the hardware is like upgrading software. You have to buy it as a new unit. So upgrading from response 4 to response 5 costs $4,000 and it would cost the same to upgrade from Response 1 to Response 5.

"SO!" Shouts you. "The smartest thing to do is buy a Metalink ($100) for the case, battery, and chipreader, then upgrade to Response 5 and Signal 5 for ($4000) and ($1000) respectively, and have a super awesome comlink for $5100, why would anyone purchase a different comlink?

Here are some reasons:

-As stated before, working on a comlink requires some technical knowledge. If you don't have the hardware skill and an electronics kit, then you don't have the ability to mod your own comlink.

-It is actually cheaper sometimes. If you aren't super concerned with signal strength, it is actually cheaper to buy a CMT Clip, and only upgrade the response. That leaves you with a signal of 3 and a response of 5 for $4300. Or, if you want a signal of 4, buy a Renraku Sensei, and upgrade the response, leaving you with a $5000 machine and Signal 4 Response 5.

-The rules explain it is up to GM caveat if and when things run out of digital storage space. It might be reasonable to assume that your crappy Metalink, while running a Wiz "Processor"(Response) and having a great antenna(Signal) is crappy on the software space. Unless you wanna cart around a bunch of chips, the GM might just tell you that upgrading to a 'Better' comlink would be your best option. (Admittedly, this is a Dick move by the GM, but I can see it.)


Think about it in today's terms. What happens if you want to upgrade your current desktop, even if you can install the stuff yourself? Can you just go out and 'Make it better?' Not usually. You'd have to go out and buy a new processor, and maybe a new motherboard. Are they going to take into account your previous motherboard's cost? No, they are going to charge you full price for an entirely new motherboard and processor.

Actually, if you have any other cyberware you can use that for your storage space. I know my combat mage has an upgraded Metalink (5/5) and alpha grade cyber hand (with datajack), eyes, and ears. That cyberware has more storage space than what they know what to do with.

Here's something that makes the whole argument about commlinks moot: Clustering.

Take my combat mage for example. I have alpha grade cyber eyes, ears, and hand. That's 3 "low powered nodes". My cyber hand has an auto-injector, datajack, and biomonitor. That's 3 more "low powered nodes". I have 6 "low powered nodes" and when clustered together I have a "commlink" with Response 4, Signal 4, System 4, and firewall 4 for "free". The way that I get this is that since all the 'ware is alpha grade then all my items are Rating 4.

Now with this "commlink", I can run 12 programs without any penalty* and have 6 personas**. How's *THAT* for crazy? Why even get a commlink? Now I have this cluster slaved to my commlink and the wireless removed from the other 'ware, but someone else can use that as a stealth 'link.


* = Response 4 (alphaware) x 6 (number of nodes) = 24/2 (half the limit of the nodes that make up the cluster) = 12

** = each node can run a persona.

clustering can be funn indeed. i stuffed 42 comlinks into a flly cybered person, and came up with a cluster that can run 126 programs and/or agents, before the first stage of degradation kicks in...

What is clustering? Is that from Unwired? 'cuse I don't have that book.

Clustering is in Unwired page 55.

Basically what it is that you can take a whole bunch of "weak" nodes and make a "strong" one out of them. Kinda like a Beowulf Cluster.

Now what makes this so nice is that you can run a lot of programs on a cluster without any of the usual degradation of Response. Also you can run multiple persona... and multiple Agents. Yes, boys and girls, Agent Smith is back... kinda...

Rules: You get a super-node (read: commlink) with a system and firewall of the weakest node in the cluster*. You get the Response from the average of the nodes, and your processor limit (how many programs you can run before your Response starts to drop) is all of the limits of the nodes added together and divided by 2. Also you can run one persona per piece of the cluster (have six items in the cluster, and you can run 6 persona)

* = If you have regular grade body cyberware... don't put it in the cluster. Your System and Firewall will drop to 1.

some would say agent smith never left, he just got incorperated into the rules (see botnets and unrestricted agents)...

Yeah, Smith use to be spammed like a Macross Missile Massacre, but now he's more limited. With Clustering, you can have a number of Agents go with you into cyber combat.

It should be noted that most nodes can only run programs they are designed to use, so even if all your ware has good ratings they are worthless for hacking and stuff no matter what you do.

Except for the bit where this clearly wasn't intended to be the case. What's the point in even letting peripheral nodes run programs, if it was intended this way. How do the interactions between program limitations even work when you're clustering a commlink with a credstick and a Math SPU?

OOB, you are incorrect. If you cluster your cyberware together, you get a "Super Node" which is a commlink. It can run all the programs that a regular commlink can run. Like Heath said: why would you do it otherwise?

So, wait, a street sam with Alphaware cybereyes and Wired reflexes and whatever else can just cluster his cyberware to automaticaly have a comlink? Seems like a big 'no' to me. Besides, how would a bunch of cyberwere (all have rating 0 signal) get better transmitters just by working together? I understand the idea of distributed computing easy enough (couple years back, some university made a super-cheap supercomputer by networking a bunch of macintosh G4s with firewire), and I can see it as something that would AUGMENT your comlink, but not replace it.

Otherwise, a corp could just by 50 metalink Comlinks, network them, and have the best security hacker ever.

It doesn't augment attributes. System and Firewall are equal to the lowest in the cluster, Response is equal to the average of the cluster, Signal isn't even mentioned since individual pieces of hardware have that instead of nodes. What does rack up are Process and Persona capacity. You can run more programs and more personas (which I, frankly, have no clue how you're meant to use).

My mistake about the signal rating. Headware transceivers (datajack, I think) has a Signal of 2. Still there is nothing saying that you can't get a micro transmitter that's set up to plug into a datajack and use that for your signal. Just slave it to the super node and have fun!

KC,
You're thinking of a wireless link, a piece of hardware that connects a wired connection (like, say, a datajack) to the wireless network. They're only Signal 3, but your GM should totally let you get better ones for a higher price.

I'm impressed by how deep your knowledge about 2070's electronics are, to be able to tell that you can directly buy a rating 6 reponse upgrade rather than pay for each cumulative upgrade.

Seriously, I agree that the wording is poor and doesn't tell whether it's cumulative or not, but with the choice between a broken and a not broken solution, I prefer choosing the not broken than choosing the broken one and complaining on Dumpshock about it.

i prefer this explanation of the term

now i wonder, what if we cluster a whole stack of nexi with maxed out processing limits?

sure, there will be diminishing return, but as it starts out at 50 (1 nexi) it should not take many to bypass my wiseman (who i now recall have not really been maxed out, as i could slap some capacity upgrades on those limbs)...